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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Roundy on June 02, 2021, 11:12:33 PM

Title: Trans athletes
Post by: Roundy on June 02, 2021, 11:12:33 PM
I'm sorry, but... *shakes head*

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/556523-laws-banning-trans-athletes-from-competing-in

Until men and women compete in sports together, on equal footing, the premise of this article is pure uncut bullshit.

There are reasons we don't have female linebackers in the NFL, reasons why there is a WNBA separate from the regular NBA, and that is that women's and men's bodies are fundamentally different, and that difference is determined at birth, not whenever whoever decides to choose what gender they want to be.

They're seriously saying that this isn't supported by science?  ::)
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 03, 2021, 01:05:46 AM
I'm sorry, but... *shakes head*

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/556523-laws-banning-trans-athletes-from-competing-in

Until men and women compete in sports together, on equal footing, the premise of this article is pure uncut bullshit.

There are reasons we don't have female linebackers in the NFL, reasons why there is a WNBA separate from the regular NBA, and that is that women's and men's bodies are fundamentally different, and that difference is determined at birth, not whenever whoever decides to choose what gender they want to be.

They're seriously saying that this isn't supported by science?  ::)

They are saying is that there are differences in performance based on biological sex. However, these differences, at a non-elite level, aren’t as pronounced as people often think. Also, the number of trans women wanting to compete on female teams is vanishingly small and does not warrant the amount of attention that it is getting. These laws are the new frontier of GOP gateway policies.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 03, 2021, 01:10:52 AM
Also, the number of trans women wanting to compete on female teams is vanishingly small and does not warrant the amount of attention that it is getting.

Are you saying that no one should care about or debate policies that only affect a small amount of people? I don't understand your point. Regardless, if a single transwoman is on a team, that affects the entire team as well as every team that specific team plays. It ultimately affects the entire sport.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 03, 2021, 01:13:23 AM
Are you saying that no one should care about or debate policies that only affect a small amount of people?

Lol

Quote
I don't understand your point.

Based on what follows, I got that.

Quote
Regardless, if a single transwoman is on a team, that affects the entire team as well as every team that specific team plays. It ultimately affects the entire sport.

Lol
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: honk on June 03, 2021, 04:22:46 AM
Holy shit, leave trans people alone. Let them be addressed with the pronouns they want, let them use the bathrooms they want, and let them have their sports. These are real people who are trying to live their lives with dignity. Let them have that. You don't have to date them or have sex with them if you don't want to. Just let them live their lives without excluding them or marginalizing them. Whatever twinge of unease you might feel about their existence or whatever intellectual duty you think you have to "debunk" them simply doesn't compare to the moral imperative of not treating your fellow humans as second-class citizens.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Lord Dave on June 03, 2021, 07:48:41 AM
I'm sorry, but... *shakes head*

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/556523-laws-banning-trans-athletes-from-competing-in

Until men and women compete in sports together, on equal footing, the premise of this article is pure uncut bullshit.

There are reasons we don't have female linebackers in the NFL, reasons why there is a WNBA separate from the regular NBA, and that is that women's and men's bodies are fundamentally different, and that difference is determined at birth, not whenever whoever decides to choose what gender they want to be.

They're seriously saying that this isn't supported by science?  ::)

What Rama said.
In essence, how "strong" someone is has a lot of factors and testosterone is one of them.  And if you're gonna go Trans, odds are you aren't fitting the framework of your birth gender anyway.  (ie. strong woman / Weak male).
And besides, what the law is now saying is "If you take testosterone and become more agressive and stronger, like a man, you need to play on the girl's team.".
Conversely, its saying "Trans girls need to play on the boys team".
Think about that for a second.  If you're taking Estrogen and losing muscle mass, growing (small) breasts, dressing as a woman... then told "You gotta go play mens basketball" what the hell is that going to do?  Do you think it'll be some kind of advantage?  How is the public going to react to a Woman on the men's team?


Yes, men and women are built differently.  Men can get muscle mass alot faster and easier than women purely due to biology.  This does not mean a woman can't be as strong as a man.  Just means she needs to work harder.

Honestly, the division of the sexes in sports seems more geared towards "keeping men and women separate" than it does any comptative disadvantages.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 03, 2021, 08:15:57 AM
Holy shit, leave trans people alone. Let them be addressed with the pronouns they want, let them use the bathrooms they want, and let them have their sports. These are real people who are trying to live their lives with dignity. Let them have that. You don't have to date them or have sex with them if you don't want to. Just let them live their lives without excluding them or marginalizing them. Whatever twinge of unease you might feel about their existence or whatever intellectual duty you think you have to "debunk" them simply doesn't compare to the moral imperative of not treating your fellow humans as second-class citizens.
Oh, cool.
So I’ve just decided that I identify as a woman so can I go into the women’s locker rooms now? What do you mean no? Don’t you oppress me.
I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 03, 2021, 09:40:13 AM
I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.
The current medical consensus is that gender dysphoria is much more nuanced and complex than "psychological issues", and gaining official recognition as the gender you choose to identify with is a lengthy process filled with painful obstacles - not quite the same as "deciding that you identify as a woman".

The general public have a very elevated opinion of their understanding of these sort of issues, but when it comes to actually showing that understanding, it usually turns out to be vanishingly small. Any argument here will be meaningless if we don't even know what we're arguing about.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: stevecanuck on June 03, 2021, 03:30:45 PM
Are you saying that no one should care about or debate policies that only affect a small amount of people?

Lol

Quote
I don't understand your point.

Based on what follows, I got that.

Quote
Regardless, if a single transwoman is on a team, that affects the entire team as well as every team that specific team plays. It ultimately affects the entire sport.

Lol

"LOL" isn't an answer. What did he get wrong?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Shane on June 03, 2021, 03:46:31 PM
How many students do you think "decide" to switch genders to either beat up on people or to sneak into their locker room? That argument seems silly to me.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 03, 2021, 04:17:33 PM
"LOL" isn't an answer. What did he get wrong?

When Rama gets blown out of arguments, he just says 'lol' and moves on. You get used to it. It's his attempt at using cool condescension and indifference to mask an aversion to conflict. It's annoying, but consistent and appreciably direct. There are many members here who consistently avoid engaging in direct arguments, Rama is one of them. You'll do well to start remembering them, so you know to just make your point and move on. Don't bother poking them further because all you'll get is multiple 'lol' posts instead of just one.

The current medical consensus is that gender dysphoria is much more nuanced and complex than "psychological issues", and gaining official recognition as the gender you choose to identify with is a lengthy process filled with painful obstacles - not quite the same as "deciding that you identify as a woman".

The general public have a very elevated opinion of their understanding of these sort of issues, but when it comes to actually showing that understanding, it usually turns out to be vanishingly small. Any argument here will be meaningless if we don't even know what we're arguing about.

That entirely depends on the legal system in question, with some governments or companies having more barriers than others. In some cases, such as certain private gyms, it can be as simple as claiming you identify as another gender. It's more nuanced than you think, but it's not necessarily as complex as you think.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 03, 2021, 05:06:39 PM
I'm sorry, but... *shakes head*

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/556523-laws-banning-trans-athletes-from-competing-in

Until men and women compete in sports together, on equal footing, the premise of this article is pure uncut bullshit.

There are reasons we don't have female linebackers in the NFL, reasons why there is a WNBA separate from the regular NBA, and that is that women's and men's bodies are fundamentally different, and that difference is determined at birth, not whenever whoever decides to choose what gender they want to be.

They're seriously saying that this isn't supported by science?  ::)

They are saying is that there are differences in performance based on biological sex. However, these differences, at a non-elite level, aren’t as pronounced as people often think. Also, the number of trans women wanting to compete on female teams is vanishingly small and does not warrant the amount of attention that it is getting. These laws are the new frontier of GOP gateway policies.
What constitutes "non-elite level?"

Scratch that. I am just going to write the following.

You have no clue what you are writing about, as usual.

Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 03, 2021, 05:46:40 PM
The physician and geneticist from that article seems to disagree with some of you.
Quote
“We know that men have, on average, an advantage in performance in athletics of about 10% to 12% over women, which the sports authorities have attributed to differences in levels of a male hormone called testosterone,” says Vilain to NPR. “But the question is whether there is in real life, during actual competitions, an advantage of performance linked to this male hormone and whether trans athletes are systematically winning all competitions. The answer to this latter question, are trans athletes winning everything, is simple — that's not the case.

Have any of you seen a young trans person who's fully transitioned? These aren't trans girls with body builder physiques.

https://www.hrc.org/news/meet-rebekah-a-14-year-old-field-hockey-player-turned-transgender-advocate
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Lord Dave on June 03, 2021, 07:01:44 PM
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 03, 2021, 07:23:32 PM
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.

No, you are committing a fallacy. You are only comparing one of the best females against all "non-elite males." You need to compare all elite-females against all non-elite males.

Also:

There are hundreds of male elite athletes faster than her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier

And here are a high school senior and a high school junior doing 100 meters in under 10 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLRzlo173A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLRzlo173A)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZm3xlMw9us (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZm3xlMw9us)
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 03, 2021, 07:30:29 PM
Are you saying that no one should care about or debate policies that only affect a small amount of people?

Lol

Quote
I don't understand your point.

Based on what follows, I got that.

Quote
Regardless, if a single transwoman is on a team, that affects the entire team as well as every team that specific team plays. It ultimately affects the entire sport.

Lol

"LOL" isn't an answer. What did he get wrong?

The first one was me laughing at the classic Rushy  reductionist bait. The second was for the pearl clutching assertion that “it ultimately affects the entire sport”. It’s nonsense fear mongering that doesn’t deserve a response.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 03, 2021, 07:34:44 PM
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.

No, you are committing a fallacy. You are only comparing one of the best females against all "non-elite males." You need to compare all elite-females against all non-elite males.

Also:

There are hundreds of male elite athletes faster than her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier

And here a high school senior and a high school junior doing 100 meters in under 10 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLRzlo173A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLRzlo173A)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZm3xlMw9us (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZm3xlMw9us)

These are all examples of elite athletes, statistical outliers. Absolutely there are profound differences between sexes at the fringes. All I mean to say is that there is a giant amount of overlap between the sexes in the middle of distributions, specifically in under-18 athletics. 
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 03, 2021, 07:44:08 PM
What constitutes "non-elite level?"

Scratch that. I am just going to write the following.

Oh how exciting.

Quote
You have no clue what you are writing about, as usual.

0/10. No effort. Standard Lackey.

Quote
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.

Depends on the age. Not sure why you are fixating on that though. It’s not like without these laws there will be women’s teams filled with guys keen play rugby against girls.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 03, 2021, 07:45:24 PM
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.
Are you arguing that 'ex-men' should be able to compete with women?

I'd like to use the example of Fallon Fox.

Fallon Fox was a dude. A dude who decided to hide behind gender apologists and compete in women's MMA.
Behold the headline.
https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/


Quote from: https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/
Everything happened in the first round and in the first two and a half minutes. It was messy, it was bloody and it’s not easy viewing for everybody. Tamika suffered a concussion and a broken skull and Fallon Fox wasn’t stopping until Tamika Brents was finally TKO’d.
Now it isn't easy viewing, because there aren't many people who would actively watch a man take a woman's face apart in a brutal assault and call it entertainment.

The defeated woman, who by-the-way was an extremely accomplished fighter in her own right said after the fight
Quote from: Tamika Brents
“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right… I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isn’t fair.”

It is very very easy to sort this mess out. The women's competitions are a handicapped event. The handicap being, they don't have a y-chromosome. If you lack a y-chromosome, you can compete in the womens. But it you are xy or more uncommonly xxy or xyy or xxyy or any other combination with a y in it ... you can't compete in the women's because every cell in your body is male. And no amount of chopping off your genitalia, taking hormones and stuffing silicon in your chest is going to change that.

No one is stopping you neutering yourself and getting an office job or working in a factory. But you shouldn't be allowed to compete with women in sports.

We should also look at 'ex-men' competing at colleges and actively winning scholarships. They are taking places of women.


And if you are in any doubt as to the difference between men and women and thinking ... meh, women are only a second slower at 100m, maybe its not that big of a deal ... watch the video below. It is the weird event of mixed 100m relay. For reasons I don't fully understand, Jamaica decide to make their two men run first ... against everyone else's women. Have a look at the difference between Asafa Powell vs 5 of the fastest women in the world. Then decide if you chopped off Powell's enormous dick, if that would slow him down enough to make this a fair race (Give him time to heal. I don't mean chop it off 2 mins before the start).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jysZ35qJHdE


That Powell race looks a lot like this college race ... spot the dude.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c51sc3Ot0Eo
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 03, 2021, 07:53:12 PM
Here come the anecdotes. Incidentally, Fallon Fox has a professional loss since transitioning.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 03, 2021, 08:04:13 PM
Incidentally, Fallon Fox has a professional loss since transitioning.
So what? I could become an MMA fighter. I wouldn't beat all the women. But ... with the right training and more experience I'd get better and become ultimately more dangerous. Fallon's last fight the poor woman needed 7 staples in her skull afterwards. He/she never fought again. I guess he realised how vile his/her/its actions were + I doubt there was a queue of women wanting their skull beaten in.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 03, 2021, 08:24:58 PM
It’s an anecdote that isn’t representative of the issue.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Lord Dave on June 03, 2021, 09:31:33 PM
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.

No, you are committing a fallacy. You are only comparing one of the best females against all "non-elite males." You need to compare all elite-females against all non-elite males.
Actually I'm comparing 1 Ultra-Elite Female to a non-elite male since that was Action's claim that the female would be beaten "quite soundly".  Which I have demonstrated to be false. 
I also do not have a list of all Elite-famale runners vs all Non-Elite-Male runners.  So I can't do that work.  Especially since "elite" and "non-elite" are undefined terms.  Like I would say I'm a non-elite.
I might be able to do the 100 meter dash in 20 seconds.  Might.  Should I be added into that pool?

Quote
Also:

There are hundreds of male elite athletes faster than her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier

And here are a high school senior and a high school junior doing 100 meters in under 10 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLRzlo173A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLRzlo173A)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZm3xlMw9us (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZm3xlMw9us)
I'd call those elite athletes.  And since I did not claim, nor refute the claim when it was made, that male athletes have a slight advantage (10-12% seems about right) given identical training, as female athletes, I'm not sure what your point is.

I'm just refuting the "Ultra-Elite Females get soundly beat by non-elite males" statement.




Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.
Are you arguing that 'ex-men' should be able to compete with women?

I'd like to use the example of Fallon Fox.

Fallon Fox was a dude. A dude who decided to hide behind gender apologists and compete in women's MMA.
Behold the headline.
https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/


Quote from: https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/
Everything happened in the first round and in the first two and a half minutes. It was messy, it was bloody and it’s not easy viewing for everybody. Tamika suffered a concussion and a broken skull and Fallon Fox wasn’t stopping until Tamika Brents was finally TKO’d.
Now it isn't easy viewing, because there aren't many people who would actively watch a man take a woman's face apart in a brutal assault and call it entertainment.

The defeated woman, who by-the-way was an extremely accomplished fighter in her own right said after the fight
Quote from: Tamika Brents
“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right… I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isn’t fair.”

It is very very easy to sort this mess out. The women's competitions are a handicapped event. The handicap being, they don't have a y-chromosome. If you lack a y-chromosome, you can compete in the womens. But it you are xy or more uncommonly xxy or xyy or xxyy or any other combination with a y in it ... you can't compete in the women's because every cell in your body is male. And no amount of chopping off your genitalia, taking hormones and stuffing silicon in your chest is going to change that.

No one is stopping you neutering yourself and getting an office job or working in a factory. But you shouldn't be allowed to compete with women in sports.

We should also look at 'ex-men' competing at colleges and actively winning scholarships. They are taking places of women.


And if you are in any doubt as to the difference between men and women and thinking ... meh, women are only a second slower at 100m, maybe its not that big of a deal ... watch the video below. It is the weird event of mixed 100m relay. For reasons I don't fully understand, Jamaica decide to make their two men run first ... against everyone else's women. Have a look at the difference between Asafa Powell vs 5 of the fastest women in the world. Then decide if you chopped off Powell's enormous dick, if that would slow him down enough to make this a fair race (Give him time to heal. I don't mean chop it off 2 mins before the start).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jysZ35qJHdE


That Powell race looks a lot like this college race ... spot the dude.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c51sc3Ot0Eo

This is actually a bad argument.  Why?  Because the skull is not gender specific.  A man's skull is just as tough as a woman's skull.  Therefore, Fallon could have done that to anyone.
Also, reading up:
Did you know the orbital socket is part of the skull?
Having your "skull" broken also means bits where it's weak, like around the eyes.  And this is a common enough injury in the MMA circuit.  The 7 staples, btw, are for the skin, not the bone.  Like stiches.

Also:
Ashlee Evans-Smith kicked Fox's ass. 
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 03, 2021, 09:35:41 PM
The debate around Fallon Fox is a bit different. Some doctors think because her transition happened later in life that she already had the musculature and skeletal advantage of living so long as a man. But as Dave pointed out:
Quote
Ashlee Evans-Smith kicked Fox's ass.

But we're talking specifically about highschool and college kids with these laws. The International Olympic Committee changed its regulations in 2004, allowing transgender athletes to compete two years after sex reassignment surgery. I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: crutonius on June 03, 2021, 10:39:29 PM
The debate around Fallon Fox is a bit different. Some doctors think because her transition happened later in life that she already had the musculature and skeletal advantage of living so long as a man. But as Dave pointed out:
Quote
Ashlee Evans-Smith kicked Fox's ass.

But we're talking specifically about highschool and college kids with these laws. The International Olympic Committee changed its regulations in 2004, allowing transgender athletes to compete two years after sex reassignment surgery. I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.

I feel this point is worth emphasis.  K-12 sports are really a trivial thing compared to the struggles that transgendered kids must endure. 

Professional sports are probably a different discussion. 
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 03, 2021, 10:53:04 PM
I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.
Well how about we get schools girls running against greyhounds? Or racehorses? Young racehorses of course. I mean, we wouldn't want them to have an age advantage. A genetic advantage such as 4 legs or a Y-chromosome, no problem though.  ::)

Why do boys ... have to compete at all after surgery? Why can't they take up art? Or singing? Why is it they have to pick something where being 6 inches taller, having bigger hands, wider shoulders, narrower hips etc is an advantage?

And also, who knows their own sexuality before puberty? It should be utterly illegal to prevent a person going through puberty and mucking about with their development whilst they are children. You do not know your own mind as a child and should not be able to consent. If you can't consent to sex until you are 16/17, why is it you can consent to being castrated and filled with hormones at the age of 10? That's some pretty fucked up liberal logic right there.

Because the skull is not gender specific.  A man's skull is just as tough as a woman's skull.

Demonstrably false.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3GvTnCuOIY
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 03, 2021, 11:25:03 PM
I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.
Well how about we get schools girls running against greyhounds? Or racehorses? Young racehorses of course. I mean, we wouldn't want them to have an age advantage. A genetic advantage such as 4 legs or a Y-chromosome, no problem though.  ::)

And the arguments get sillier and sillier.

Quote
Why do boys ... have to compete at all after surgery? Why can't they take up art? Or singing? Why is it they have to pick something where being 6 inches taller, having bigger hands, wider shoulders, narrower hips etc is an advantage?

They don’t. They can. They can. They don’t have to.

Quote
And also, who knows their own sexuality before puberty? It should be utterly illegal to prevent a person going through puberty and mucking about with their development whilst they are children. You do not know your own mind as a child and should not be able to consent. If you can't consent to sex until you are 16/17, why is it you can consent to being castrated and filled with hormones at the age of 10? That's some pretty fucked up liberal logic right there.

Some children do know, some don’t. There is always extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 03, 2021, 11:46:18 PM
Some children do know, some don’t. There is always extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment.
Maybe there are children out there that know if they want sex or not. Perhaps if one could get a doctor with an agenda to give the child extensive therapy, the child will be able to have sex with adults. Possibly for money.  I mean, all things are possible with therapy and a liberal agenda.

Also ... sexual reassignment? You make it sound like they can change your sex. That is a lie. If you are a boy, there is no way you are ever giving birth. They can't "reassign" you a new sex. You're not getting a womb any time soon. You know ... to make you a womb-man or woman as we call them.

What you will get instead, is probably best described as malpractice.


Also, I don't know what you consider 'extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment' but in the UK that extensive therapy amounts to just 3 hours of consultation.
Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020
She was referred to the Tavistock GIDS clinic at the age of 16. She said after three one-hour-long appointments she was prescribed puberty blockers, which delay the development of signs of puberty, like periods or facial hair.

She felt there wasn't enough investigation or therapy before she reached that stage.
^This isn't about the best possible health outcomes for patients. It is ideologically driven left wing politics taken to its inevitable conclusion where it gets to ruin people's lives.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 04, 2021, 12:03:23 AM
This isn't about the best possible health outcomes for patients. It is ideologically driven left wing politics taken to its inevitable conclusion where it gets to ruin people's lives.

It is in part driven by the medical industry as sexual reassignment surgery is quite expensive and constitutes a lifelong addiction to drugs for the end user. Even left wing politics don't really care for it, rather this is Big Pharma smelling room for fiscal growth. You'll also notice that "Pride Month" is simply a targeted ad campaign and not politically relevant.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 04, 2021, 02:00:04 AM
Some children do know, some don’t. There is always extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment.
Maybe there are children out there that know if they want sex or not. Perhaps if one could get a doctor with an agenda to give the child extensive therapy, the child will be able to have sex with adults. Possibly for money.  I mean, all things are possible with therapy and a liberal agenda.

I know change is scary for you.

Quote
Also ... sexual reassignment? You make it sound like they can change your sex. That is a lie. If you are a boy, there is no way you are ever giving birth. They can't "reassign" you a new sex. You're not getting a womb any time soon. You know ... to make you a womb-man or woman as we call them.

Did you know... Did you know... That women aren’t all capable giving birth?

Quote
What you will get instead, is probably best described as malpractice.

Thanks for your professional opinion.


Quote
Also, I don't know what you consider 'extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment' but in the UK that extensive therapy amounts to just 3 hours of consultation.
Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020
She was referred to the Tavistock GIDS clinic at the age of 16. She said after three one-hour-long appointments she was prescribed puberty blockers, which delay the development of signs of puberty, like periods or facial hair.

She felt there wasn't enough investigation or therapy before she reached that stage.
^This isn't about the best possible health outcomes for patients. It is ideologically driven left wing politics taken to its inevitable conclusion where it gets to ruin people's lives.

I don’t know what you consider sexual reassignment, but puberty blockers aren’t it.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: honk on June 04, 2021, 03:38:36 AM
So I’ve just decided that I identify as a woman so can I go into the women’s locker rooms now? What do you mean no? Don’t you oppress me.

It's interesting how skeptics always seem to take it for granted that support for trans rights goes hand in hand with a credulous acceptance of anyone acting in bad faith as long as they say the magic words. I have absolutely no problem with using some common sense when allowing claimed transwomen into women's spaces. Saying "I identify as a woman" doesn't make you trans, and neither does wearing a wig and a dress.

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I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.

You can call it whatever you want, but the phenomenon is very real. There are millions of people who feel the way they do, and they're not going to just "snap out of it" or go away no matter how certain you are that scientifically they shouldn't exist. We can either treat them with compassion or continue to marginalize and isolate them, and I feel that making appeals to scientific accuracy is a very poor justification for the latter, especially when the burden placed on society and individuals for "pandering" to them is such a trivial one.

It should be utterly illegal to prevent a person going through puberty and mucking about with their development whilst they are children. You do not know your own mind as a child and should not be able to consent. If you can't consent to sex until you are 16/17, why is it you can consent to being castrated and filled with hormones at the age of 10? That's some pretty fucked up liberal logic right there.

This does not happen. If there's one piece of misinformation above all that needs to be corrected, it's this. Children who believe they may be transgender are not given life-altering surgeries or chemical treatments. At most, they receive puberty blockers in their adolescence to delay - not permanently prevent, but delay - the effects of puberty until they're old enough to make a decision about how they want to live their life. It's not always perfect. I feel awful for the woman in the article you linked, but she was seventeen when she began taking male hormones, and twenty when she had her breasts removed. She wasn't a brainwashed child. Wherever there are major medical procedures, there will be people who undergo them and later regret doing so. I don't think that's an effective argument for getting rid of them altogether.

Also, here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/04/22/transgender-child-sports-treatments/) is a good article that details much of the science behind all this, as well as the rules and procedures for treating trans youth. A lot of this is admittedly specific to America, but I would be astonished if things were especially different in any other Western nation.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 04, 2021, 01:41:14 PM
You can call it whatever you want, but the phenomenon is very real. There are millions of people who feel the way they do, and they're not going to just "snap out of it" or go away no matter how certain you are that scientifically they shouldn't exist. We can either treat them with compassion or continue to marginalize and isolate them, and I feel that making appeals to scientific accuracy is a very poor justification for the latter, especially when the burden placed on society and individuals for "pandering" to them is such a trivial one.

This argument hinges on making compassionate treatment and bending to delusion equivalent. Schizophrenic patients are treated with compassion and medication but at no point is other parts of society expected to bend to their schizophrenic beliefs. We do not recognize them as messiahs or take their remarks on aliens or the CIA seriously. Why then, must delusions from supposedly 'transexual' people be treated with such gravity? If a man believes he is a woman or if a woman believes she is a man, then he or she is mentally disordered. The treatment is not and should never be to just play into their pretending. No other mental disorder is treated by playing into the patient's delusions, why is this one any different?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 04, 2021, 03:29:03 PM
We treat schizophrenics medically to deal with their issues. In your medical expertise what medical approach should be used to treat transexuals? The same as schizophrenics? How did you decide what the medically appropriate treatment was? Did you find them through research and study?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: garygreen on June 04, 2021, 03:32:19 PM
This argument hinges on making compassionate treatment and bending to delusion equivalent. Schizophrenic patients are treated with compassion and medication but at no point is other parts of society expected to bend to their schizophrenic beliefs. We do not recognize them as messiahs or take their remarks on aliens or the CIA seriously. Why then, must delusions from supposedly 'transexual' people be treated with such gravity? If a man believes he is a woman or if a woman believes she is a man, then he or she is mentally disordered. The treatment is not and should never be to just play into their pretending. No other mental disorder is treated by playing into the patient's delusions, why is this one any different?

this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: WTF_Seriously on June 04, 2021, 05:21:09 PM
this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?

Kinda unrelated but we saw first hand on Jan. 6 the potential of what happens when you continually feed the fantasies of delusional people.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 04, 2021, 07:21:15 PM
this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?
Do I have to address said schizophrenic as 'Your Highness', will that person then be treated like a King by society and will I face criminal action and get called a bigot if I refuse to bow when said schizophrenic walks past?

It doesn't matter what happens in the mind of a trans-person. What matters is what the rest of us are compelled to do about it. If I make a Tweet saying the schizophrenic isn't really a King, should that be a hate crime? Should I lose my job or be required to make a public apology for not respecting the way that Schizophrenic self-identifies?

Hey, let's do a Thork story. Its been a while.

I actually have a friend who is a schizophrenic. Its incredibly sad for him. IRL we all call him Mental [redacted] so for the sake of anonymity, we'll call him Mental Barry instead. He was diagnosed as suffering with "delusions of grandeur" and is currently banged up in a mental hospital, sectioned and on the strongest medication you can receive for such a disorder ... clozapine. You are only prescribed this if two other medications have already failed. Now, Mental Barry is a really nice guy which is just as well because he's fucking huge and I can tell you, he's never dull. He recently defrauded the government of £100,000 of disaster relief funds for covid, because Mental Barry believed himself to be the CEO of a clean energy company. You can see how much the government was checking these grants. 🙄 He then took the funds and bought 13 vans with it. He left them at his mother's house and she received an eviction notice. When his father tried to move one of the vans, his father got arrested because none of the vans were taxed or insured. Mental Barry then racked up enormous credit card debts buying ... I guess prepper type equipment is the best way to describe it. He thinks the world is going to end very soon. An example.

I was with him at Costco (I needed socks) and he saw a 12 man tent. "That's a great price" he remarked. "I'm going to buy it".
"You don't have 11 friends" I protested. It didn't matter. That tent, 3 cans of propane and a 10 litre industrial can of baked beans found their way into the trolley. Oh, and an enormous outdoor lock box which he could use 'to keep things safe'. He has 7 of these in his mother's garden already. Fortunately, he owned a huge van to get all that crap home ... you can't fault his logic.

Now I'm not sure what the flash point was to get him sectioned again in January. The time before, he was chased by a gang who damaged his van and when he complained to the police, they didn't take his complaint seriously and believe the gang existed. After he called them over 100 times, because you need to do that if you want them to help you, they had him sectioned again. But this time, I'm not sure yet. Maybe relevant, I was phoned by a guy who owned a boatyard. He'd been recommended to me to do a website, by Mental Barry. I asked how this potential client knew Mental Barry and he told me Mental Barry was trying to buy a £40,000 boat. So next time I see Mental Barry in the pub I ask him
"Barry, what's this I hear about you buying a boat?".
"Yeah, I'm going to keep it in a small village on the South coast".
"But Barry, we live 70 miles from the coast, why are you buying a boat?"
Mental Barry looked back at me, perplexed. His long curly black hair creating a fuzzy telephone receiver shaped halo around his face. His wild eyes flashed and he stroked his enormous unkempt Viking beard
"Why would you not buy a boat?"

I'm not often lost for words, but I didn't have an answer. I just looked into the bottom of my pint and wondered if one day Mental Barry might stab me to death. If he finds out that about a week before he was sectioned that I told his mother he was about to buy a boat, to which she exclaimed "He'll put us in the poor house, what am I to do?" ... maybe he will stab me.  :( Fortunately, at the moment he's extremely busy with a solicitor putting together a case to sue the police. I hope this solicitor works out for him because the last 6 have dropped his case.

Anyhoo, the point is, at no time am I ever expected to join in with Mental Barry's delusions. I'm not supposed to humour him, and far less am I supposed to egg him on. If one day Mental Barry turned around to me and exclaimed "No, I'm now Mental Bernadette and I'm going to have my nuts chopped off and throw shotputs for Great Britain" is it a hate crime if I use the wrong pronoun on her?

You see, Barry is the mental one. Not me. This dynamic seems to be lost on 'trans-patients' and yet somehow, the patients are the ones law makers and politicians side with. It must be a cold day in hell, because I agree with Rushy.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: honk on June 04, 2021, 07:57:23 PM
You can call it whatever you want, but the phenomenon is very real. There are millions of people who feel the way they do, and they're not going to just "snap out of it" or go away no matter how certain you are that scientifically they shouldn't exist. We can either treat them with compassion or continue to marginalize and isolate them, and I feel that making appeals to scientific accuracy is a very poor justification for the latter, especially when the burden placed on society and individuals for "pandering" to them is such a trivial one.

This argument hinges on making compassionate treatment and bending to delusion equivalent. Schizophrenic patients are treated with compassion and medication but at no point is other parts of society expected to bend to their schizophrenic beliefs. We do not recognize them as messiahs or take their remarks on aliens or the CIA seriously. Why then, must delusions from supposedly 'transexual' people be treated with such gravity? If a man believes he is a woman or if a woman believes she is a man, then he or she is mentally disordered. The treatment is not and should never be to just play into their pretending. No other mental disorder is treated by playing into the patient's delusions, why is this one any different?

Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 04, 2021, 08:21:57 PM
Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.

Incorrect. There is a right and a wrong. The sex of living mammals has a biological definition. If you saw that a dog with male genes and organs who enjoys being mounted as if it were a female, and claim that it makes the dog a female, then you are wrong by definition.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 04, 2021, 08:23:06 PM
I can't believe some of you are this upset about pronouns and genitals. It's really not that complicated or difficult to just.. respect people and not worry about their lives.

Now to get away from these weird as fuck, completely unrelated tangents - no one has answered the main question of all this: if transkids have the proper estrogen or testosterone levels of their respective gender then why can't they play sports with other children of their identifying gender? What's one good reason a 16 year old girl, with standard female estrogen levels, can't play soccer with other girls?

The only people I ever see complaining about this are transphobes who are not affected by it whatsoever. If the International Olympic Committee can allow transpeople to compete in their respective sports, then why the hell would a high school be pressed about it?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: honk on June 04, 2021, 08:36:09 PM
Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.

Incorrect. There is a right and a wrong. The sex of living mammals has a biological definition. If you saw that a dog with male genes and organs who enjoys being mounted as if it were a female, and claim that it makes the dog a female, then you are wrong by definition.

I'm not talking about sex; I'm talking about gender identity.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 04, 2021, 08:45:31 PM
Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.

Incorrect. There is a right and a wrong. The sex of living mammals has a biological definition. If you saw that a dog with male genes and organs who enjoys being mounted as if it were a female, and claim that it makes the dog a female, then you are wrong by definition.

I'm not talking about sex; I'm talking about gender identity.

A dog can pretend to be female, but that doesn't make it a female dog, and nor should it allow it to compete against female dogs in an all-female-dog racing competition. It just means that the dog has a behavioral or mental condition.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: fisherman on June 04, 2021, 08:50:37 PM
Quote
this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?

As the sibling of a schizophrenic and parent of a severely bipolar daughter, I can tell you that I would have a problem with it.  My brother has passed, but believe me when I say that I would cut out my own heart if I thought it would bring my daughter some relief, but expecting the rest of my family, her friends, employers and society in general to feign acceptance of her delusions when she is in a psychotic episode is too much of a physical, emotional and financial burden to place on anyone.  Not to mention that doing that could put her and others in physical danger.

I understand that the transgender issue isn't the same as accepting someone's "identified" gender doesn't really require any great sacrifice and I admit to some mixed feelings about it.  There was one episode she had that I think is somewhat analogous, though.

 At one point, she wanted to poke her eyes out because she thought it would stop the hallucinations.  Naturally, that is something that couldn't be indulged...not just because of the obvious physical implications, but because she didn't understand that her eyes weren't the problem.  Poking her eyes out wouldn't stop the hallucinations because the problem was in her mind, not with her vision.

In that way, I'm not sure that reassignment surgery and mutilating one's genitalia is appropriate.  The problem isn't with the presence or absence of sex organs.  The problem is in the mind.  I knew that poking her eyes out would not give my daughter relief and I wonder just how much relief reassignment surgery gives transgender people.  I can't help but suspect that feelings of inadequacy,  loneliness, etc. continue to some extent.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 04, 2021, 09:09:21 PM
In that way, I'm not sure that reassignment surgery and mutilating one's genitalia is appropriate.
Mutilating is absolutely the incorrect word. Surgery is not a violent disfigurement. No one says, "hi, I'd like to make an appointment for my breast mutilation."

Quote
The problem isn't with the presence or absence of sex organs.  The problem is in the mind.  I knew that poking her eyes out would not give my daughter relief and I wonder just how much relief reassignment surgery gives transgender people. I can't help but suspect that feelings of inadequacy,  loneliness, etc. continue to some extent.
Self harm and going blind ≠  not having a penis if you really really don't want one. People have surgeries all the time for body dysmorphia, I don't see any of you having such a problem with breast augmentation or any other kind of plastic surgery.

Gender dysphoria is sometimes very extreme. People self harm, hate themselves, have thoughts of or actually commit suicide. If a surgery alleviates those symptoms and gives them the body they identify with, then yes it is a huge relief. I know a couple transpeople who have completely different and happier lives after transitioning.

And if they feel inadequacies or loneliness it actually has more to do with being ostracized, discrimination, people saying they've mutilated their bodies, or comparing them to dogs for dehumanizing analogies.

But sure, sometimes gender reassignment surgery might not help. Just like getting bigger breasts might not necessarily help someone's self image or confidence. Anyway, this is still completely irrelevant to 16 year old transkids wanting to play sports.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 04, 2021, 10:09:58 PM
I can't believe some of you are this upset about pronouns and genitals. It's really not that complicated or difficult to just.. respect people and not worry about their lives.

I can respect someone and also not think that society should have to pander to their delusion. And I'm sorry if you don't like the word delusion, but what else do you call it? I am male, and I'm human. That's not an opinion, it's not subjective, it's encoded in my DNA.
You're going to make a distinction between gender and sex of course, it's a completely spurious distinction. How many made up genders are we up to now? I'm not saying that people don't really feel these things and yes, they should get treatment. But I don't think that treatment should involve cutting bits off of them or sticking other bits on or pumping them full of drugs to try and simulate the gender they think they are.

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What's one good reason a 16 year old girl, with standard female estrogen levels, can't play soccer with other girls?
If the 16 year old girl you're talking about is called Barry and has a cock then it's because they're not a girl.
Them thinking they are doesn't make them correct.

Quote
The only people I ever see complaining about this are transphobes who are not affected by it whatsoever.
It's not transphobic to think that certain sports are better being single sex. In things like snooker and darts there is a mix and it works fine, they're not sports which rely on physical strength or size, there's no inherent advantage in being male or female. In sports like tennis, athletics or football (soccer, for you Yanks) - and in most sports really - there's a clear advantage for males.
Does it affect me? I guess not. And I disagree with the notion that it affects the whole of the sport as someone said above. But it's part of the pandering which I actually believe is counter-productive and not ultimately helping people in the right way.

Quote
If the International Olympic Committee can allow transpeople to compete in their respective sports, then why the hell would a high school be pressed about it?
That's fair, but I think the IOC have incorrectly bowed to politically correct peer pressure. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 04, 2021, 10:13:30 PM
Gender dysphoria is sometimes very extreme. People self harm, hate themselves, have thoughts of or actually commit suicide. If a surgery alleviates those symptoms and gives them the body they identify with, then yes it is a huge relief. I know a couple transpeople who have completely different and happier lives after transitioning.
There are also conditions where people hate a certain limb and want it amputated. Should they just be given surgery to do that?
It might alleviate the condition but it would obviously make their lives harder in other ways which would require them to have help.
Obviously people with these conditions need help, the debate is surely how best to help them. It doesn't feel like lopping their cocks off is the right way of doing it.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 04, 2021, 10:17:48 PM
Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.

Incorrect. There is a right and a wrong. The sex of living mammals has a biological definition. If you saw that a dog with male genes and organs who enjoys being mounted as if it were a female, and claim that it makes the dog a female, then you are wrong by definition.

I'm not talking about sex; I'm talking about gender identity.

I read a good analogy about the perception of trans people manifests. Turns out people who have been born missing a limb can still have phantom limb syndrome. Your brain develops “expecting” a certain type of development. Similarly with trans people, their brain expects them to be one gender and is actually another.

Anyone who think trans people are delusional, they have made no effort to learn about their experience. They are perfectly lucid about the state of their anatomy and despite their sex experience a gender that doesn’t agree with it. It’s an incongruency but they are not misapprehending reality.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 04, 2021, 10:21:46 PM
Gender dysphoria is sometimes very extreme. People self harm, hate themselves, have thoughts of or actually commit suicide. If a surgery alleviates those symptoms and gives them the body they identify with, then yes it is a huge relief. I know a couple transpeople who have completely different and happier lives after transitioning.
There are also conditions where people hate a certain limb and want it amputated. Should they just be given surgery to do that?
It might alleviate the condition but it would obviously make their lives harder in other ways which would require them to have help.
Obviously people with these conditions need help, the debate is surely how best to help them. It doesn't feel like lopping their cocks off is the right way of doing it.

Sexual reassignment is not the only way to transition.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 04, 2021, 10:32:18 PM
I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.
The current medical consensus is that gender dysphoria is much more nuanced and complex than "psychological issues", and gaining official recognition as the gender you choose to identify with is a lengthy process filled with painful obstacles - not quite the same as "deciding that you identify as a woman".

The general public have a very elevated opinion of their understanding of these sort of issues, but when it comes to actually showing that understanding, it usually turns out to be vanishingly small. Any argument here will be meaningless if we don't even know what we're arguing about.
I'm interested in how selective you (plural) are about how much weight to give to the consensus of experts...

I was being flippant in my first post, admittedly. But there surely has to be something psychological going on here. We are, after all, talking about how people feel. My maleness is not a subjective opinion, it's determined by my biology and chromosomes. What makes me "feel" male? What does that even mean? I don't know how it "feels" to be female. I imagine there is some nurture element going on, society treats males and females differently, parents bring up boys and girls differently. That has to have an effect.

This is obviously a complicated subject. And fine, I'm not an expert on this. But just because someone feels something, that doesn't mean they're correct and that we should all pander to the way they feel. Where does that start and end?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 04, 2021, 10:47:36 PM
Anyone who think trans people are delusional, they have made no effort to learn about their experience. They are perfectly lucid about the state of their anatomy and despite their sex experience a gender that doesn’t agree with it. It’s an incongruency but they are not misapprehending reality.
The delusion is thinking you can change sex simply by having a surgeon chop bits off you. And it is a delusion. If an anorexic believes themselves to be to fat, we don't agree and put them on a diet. If a man thinks he's a woman, you shouldn't agree and chop his knackers off. As said, the problem is with his head ... not his body.



Mutilating is absolutely the incorrect word. Surgery is not a violent disfigurement. No one says, "hi, I'd like to make an appointment for my breast mutilation."
This is a very female viewpoint. Where the language is oh so important and must be controlled so as not to hurt feelings. It doesn't matter what you call it. When you chop off a woman's healthy breasts because she wants to be a man, it is a mutilation. But call it an operation if you like. The result is the same. Her flumps end up in the bin. She's still not a man. She's 6 inches shorter than most men and doesn't have a working set of balls and a dick. And every single cell in her body is XX. She has female DNA. You can't be reassigned a new sex when your DNA is male. You are male.

Imagine this.

Your transgender 'woman' is dug up by an archaeologist in 800 years time. What sex is the archaeologist going to determine this 'woman' was? The skeleton is utterly male. The DNA is male. The hormones, mutilated penis and fake boobs have long since rotted away. Has a man's height, a man's jaw, a man's pelvis, a man's DNA. This one is going down on the clipboard as a man.

if transkids have the proper estrogen or testosterone levels of their respective gender then why can't they play sports with other children of their identifying gender?
Because hormones and things like facial hair and muscle size are the SECONDARY sex characteristics. Not the PRIMARY characteristics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_sex_characteristic

You can't just change the secondary effects and say "welp, its fair now". It isn't. They guy is likely still 6 inches taller with shoulders that are twice as wide. He's got man's hips and heel bones. He'll be able to run faster because of this. It isn't fair.


personal anecdote
I hope the future will be kinder to your family than the past has been.

Sexual reassignment is not the only way to transition.
Utter psycho babble. There is no transition. There is aggressive medical intervention that delivers life changing injuries to otherwise healthy people. Transition ... reminds me of when people can't say the word died and instead say "John has passed". Stop fucking with the language because you don't want to hear reality.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 04, 2021, 10:56:13 PM
Thork, you’re getting upset so let’s try and stay civil. Transitioning is an umbrella term that describes many interventions, some not even medical. Some trans people don’t even attempt to transition.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 04, 2021, 11:08:06 PM
This argument hinges on making compassionate treatment and bending to delusion equivalent. Schizophrenic patients are treated with compassion and medication but at no point is other parts of society expected to bend to their schizophrenic beliefs. We do not recognize them as messiahs or take their remarks on aliens or the CIA seriously. Why then, must delusions from supposedly 'transexual' people be treated with such gravity? If a man believes he is a woman or if a woman believes she is a man, then he or she is mentally disordered. The treatment is not and should never be to just play into their pretending. No other mental disorder is treated by playing into the patient's delusions, why is this one any different?

this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?

Yes, as this does not treat their core psychological problem. Outcome based treatment is how we ended up with lobotomies. Further, playing into a schizophrenic's beliefs is less damaging than a gender dysphoric patient, as indulging a belief in aliens doesn't require long term hormone therapy or body mutilation. Modern day treatment of gender dysphoria is a circus of treating the disorder by indulging the symptoms. There is something quite seriously wrong with both the mind and body when a patient exhibits gender dysphoria.

Let's say, for example, a patient exhibits body dysmorphia and demands their right arm be removed. They do this for several years on end, despite the guidance of psychologists, psychiatrists, and so on. Is it ultimately the better outcome to remove the patients right arm? I don't think it is. Do you?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 04, 2021, 11:21:04 PM
Well dang, I'm the same height as the (world) average man and have broader shoulders than average women. I even once dated a guy who had broader hips than me. And yes, my advantage was that I was the fastest girl on my soccer team. What a tragedy I had these advantages. Maybe they shouldn't have let me play with the other girls. 🙄

None of you are doctors or are even using medical arguments. We already know the medically recommended treatment for trans people, some of you just don't like it or agree with it. And now you're all saying mutilation for shits and giggles even though pedantically speaking it is incorrect.

And I know you're not making these arguments for trans peoples' best interest because you continue to demean them. None of you are going around testing DNA to make sure the people you know are their born gender. You don't care about their well-being, you just think it's icky that a girl might have a penis.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 04, 2021, 11:24:12 PM
Well dang, I'm the same height as the (world) average man and have broader shoulders than average women. I even once dated a guy who had broader hips than me. And yes, my advantage was that I was the fastest girl on my soccer team. What a tragedy I had these advantages. Maybe they shouldn't have let me play with the other girls. 🙄

By the nature of the new wobbly definitions of what it means to be a man or a woman, by your description you already are a man. Congratulations.

None of you are doctors or are even using medical arguments. We already know the medically recommended treatment for trans people, some of you just don't like it or agree with it. And now you're all saying mutilation for shits and giggles even though pedantically speaking it is incorrect.

At one point, the most common prescription for a mental disorder was to remove the entirety of the patient's frontal cortex. This is simply an argument from authority and one that historically has never held up. Simply being the most common or most recommended treatment today doesn't mean it's a good one.

And I know you're not making these arguments for trans peoples' best interest because you continue to demean them. None of you are going around testing DNA to make sure the people you know are their born gender. You don't care about their well-being, you just think it's icky that a girl might have a penis.

Tell me, in your own words, what a girl is.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 04, 2021, 11:28:24 PM
Some trans people don’t even attempt to transition.
What next? Some politicians don't even attempt politics? Some nurses don't even attempt to do any nursing? Some guitarists have never even attempted picking up a guitar?  ::)

I'm not blinded by your weasel words. There are no trans people. There are mentally ill men and women who are not getting the proper psychological help that they deserve with their gender dysmorphia, but I'm not going to agree they are the wrong sex any more than I agree that Mental Barry is the King of West London. And I feel that all these virtue thirsty do-gooders who are high on empathy and low on critical reasoning skills are muddying the water with their flowery language and preventing real progress being made in the treatment of this disorder. The road hell is paved with good intention, as they say.

Well dang, I'm the same height as the (world) average man and have broader shoulders than average women. I even once dated a guy who had broader hips than me. And yes, my advantage was that I was the fastest girl on my soccer team. What a tragedy I had these advantages. Maybe they shouldn't have let me play with the other girls. 🙄
Maybe you should have focused a little harder and you might be playing for Barcelona with genetics like that. Now these traits were your god given gifts. They weren't bought and paid for by big pharma. And in sport, we don't like people getting extra help from big pharma. We call it cheating. That's why we don't want someone with massive amounts of medical interventions who suddenly find themselves able to dominate a sport, competing against those who haven't cheated.

None of you are doctors or are even using medical arguments. We already know the medically recommended treatment for trans people, some of you just don't like it or agree with it. And now you're all saying mutilation for shits and giggles even though pedantically speaking it is incorrect.
Well they used to electrocute them over and over in the 1930s, and before that packs of leeches were distributed. But yeah, they are bound to be using the correct treatments now because the success rate is so high.  ::)
Edit: Ninja'd by Rushy. It is frightening that we think the same things. Where is the real Rushy and who the hell is this imposter?

you just think it's icky that a girl might have a penis.
She absolutely won't have a penis. Or anything like a penis. She may have a prosthetic part attached, but if I bolted a set of wheels to your ankles, would you describe them as feet?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 04, 2021, 11:38:57 PM
Rooster was talking about a trans woman without gender confirming surgery. That’s a girl with a penis. A trans man with gender confirming surgery will have a penis. I know, I know. It’s a lot to throw at you, but you’ll get it.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 04, 2021, 11:42:41 PM
Well dang, I'm the same height as the (world) average man and have broader shoulders than average women. I even once dated a guy who had broader hips than me. And yes, my advantage was that I was the fastest girl on my soccer team. What a tragedy I had these advantages. Maybe they shouldn't have let me play with the other girls. 🙄

By the nature of the new wobbly definitions of what it means to be a man or a woman, by your description you already are a man. Congratulations.

None of you are doctors or are even using medical arguments. We already know the medically recommended treatment for trans people, some of you just don't like it or agree with it. And now you're all saying mutilation for shits and giggles even though pedantically speaking it is incorrect.

At one point, the most common prescription for a mental disorder was to remove the entirety of the patient's frontal cortex. This is simply an argument from authority and one that historically has never held up. Simply being the most common or most recommended treatment today doesn't mean it's a good one.

And I know you're not making these arguments for trans peoples' best interest because you continue to demean them. None of you are going around testing DNA to make sure the people you know are their born gender. You don't care about their well-being, you just think it's icky that a girl might have a penis.

Tell me, in your own words, what a girl is.

That's not my definition of what constitutes a man or woman. My point was that I already have characteristics of what Thork thinks someone on a girls' sports team shouldn't have. It's only fair because I didn't take drugs... Even though ironically I was taking estrogen (bc pills).

A girl is anyone who identifies as a girl. Our brains have structural differences between male and female. Sometimes a female brain ends up in a male body.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

What's in someone's pants is irrelevant to me because I likely won't interact with it anyway. And if someone has the natural hormonal levels of their identifying gender and wants to play in highschool sports there's no real reason why they can't.

Edit by Rushy: I am a complete idiot and overwrote Rooster's post thinking it was a reply.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 04, 2021, 11:48:28 PM
Rooster was talking about a trans woman without gender confirming surgery.
Oh ... a woman who has a penis ... we have a word for that ... way more concise ... we call them ... men.

That’s a girl with a penis.
No, it is a man. Even a small child can understand this. The ones with the peepees are boys. The ones with the foofoos are girls.

A trans man
you mean a woman with gender dysmorphia

with gender confirming surgery
Gender confirming? We already knew her gender ... she was a woman. She may not have known, but everyone else did. This is common in people with mental illness.

will have a penis. I know, I know. It’s a lot to throw at you, but you’ll get it.
If I sowed a carrot to your crotch, does it cease to be a carrot and suddenly become a penis?


What's in someone's pants is irrelevant to me because I likely won't interact with it anyway.
That's some fierce transphobia, right there.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 04, 2021, 11:51:55 PM
What's in someone's pants is irrelevant to me because I likely won't interact with it anyway.
That's some fierce transphobia, right there.
Because I'm in a monogamous relationship. I have no aversion to hypothetically being in a relationship with a transman. Nice try though.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 04, 2021, 11:58:23 PM
A girl is anyone who identifies as a girl.

This is the equivalent of me asking what a circle is and you answer "a circle is a circle". You didn't define what a girl is. What precisely does it mean to "identify as a girl"? Let's say you're reading a great book and it describes a character as a "young girl", what image is brought to your mind?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 05, 2021, 12:04:20 AM
I have no aversion to hypothetically being in a relationship with a transman.

???

Computing ...

(https://journal.classiccars.com/media/2020/02/19517564-1979-pontiac-firebird-trans-am-std.jpg)

???

recalibrating ...

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/02/23/10/498241CA00000578-5426193-image-a-32_1519383230570.jpg)

???

adding corrections ...

(https://phantom-marca.unidadeditorial.es/4c18ecaac26b88b8767e240585f9ee77/resize/1320/f/jpg/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2021/05/19/16214361207467.jpg)

???

searching ...

(https://eastbayexpress.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2014/11/thomas.jpg)

 :D

Bingo!

Wow, you have some pretty fucked up sexual preferences.  :-X
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 05, 2021, 12:14:00 AM
A girl is anyone who identifies as a girl.

This is the equivalent of me asking what a circle is and you answer "a circle is a circle". You didn't define what a girl is. What precisely does it mean to "identify as a girl"? Let's say you're reading a great book and it describes a character as a "young girl", what image is brought to your mind?
Honestly, it's difficult for me to picture people without more descriptive characteristics. But, a child with maybe longer hair and maybe wearing a dress. But not all girls have long hair or like dresses and some boys do have long hair and like dresses. I just picture a kid.

People are so varied I don't have a prototype for "man" or "woman" without more prompting. I'd probably just end up picturing a man or woman I know.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 05, 2021, 12:59:08 AM
Honestly, it's difficult for me to picture people without more descriptive characteristics. But, a child with maybe longer hair and maybe wearing a dress. But not all girls have long hair or like dresses and some boys do have long hair and like dresses. I just picture a kid.

People are so varied I don't have a prototype for "man" or "woman" without more prompting. I'd probably just end up picturing a man or woman I know.

You say that a girl isn't necessarily one that wears dresses or has long hair, so we can't go by physical choices, then. So, what does a girl have that a boy does not? If we go back to 'female brain', what does a female brain do that a male brain does not?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 05, 2021, 01:06:30 AM
You say that a girl isn't necessarily one that wears dresses or has long hair, so we can't go by physical choices, then. So, what does a girl have that a boy does not? If we go back to 'female brain', what does a female brain do that a male brain does not?
According to the link I posted it has more to do with structure and volume as opposed to what a female brain "does." You're going to have to ask these medical researchers what the significance of the brain structure is.

You're not going to get anything you want from me with this question. There is no one way to be or do anything. Hell, I break a lot of typical female stereotypes. I know of a couple trans women that are way more feminine than I am. This is pointless.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 05, 2021, 01:26:59 AM
You're not going to get anything you want from me with this question. There is no one way to be or do anything. Hell, I break a lot of typical female stereotypes. I know of a couple trans women that are way more feminine than I am. This is pointless.

Why is being a woman related at all to being 'feminine', though? If a female human wears jeans, gymbros it up, drinks beers, does an infinite load of 'stereotypical man' cultural references, is there an inflection point where that female human *is* a man or is it a woman that chooses that lifestyle? It seems that you've dissolved enough of what the words mean to the point that they have no meaning at all, which is likely why you're having such an incredibly difficult time giving me a concrete definition of the words.

Here, I can define them easily: a man is a male human and a woman is a female human. And of course, there are people who are neither male nor female due to a disorder and those people are neither man nor woman.

Instead of modernizing what we once called 'gender roles', we've instead reinforced them so hardcore that people must literally identify as the opposing sex to perform the role they desire. Is that healthy?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 05, 2021, 01:59:27 AM
You're not going to get anything you want from me with this question. There is no one way to be or do anything. Hell, I break a lot of typical female stereotypes. I know of a couple trans women that are way more feminine than I am. This is pointless.

Why is being a woman related at all to being 'feminine', though? If a female human wears jeans, gymbros it up, drinks beers, does an infinite load of 'stereotypical man' cultural references, is there an inflection point where that female human *is* a man or is it a woman that chooses that lifestyle? It seems that you've dissolved enough of what the words mean to the point that they have no meaning at all, which is likely why you're having such an incredibly difficult time giving me a concrete definition of the words.

Here, I can define them easily: a man is a male human and a woman is a female human. And of course, there are people who are neither male nor female due to a disorder and those people are neither man nor woman.

Instead of modernizing what we once called 'gender roles', we've instead reinforced them so hardcore that people must literally identify as the opposing sex to perform the role they desire. Is that healthy?
That's the opposite of what I was saying. I referred to the stereotypes, which I don't personally follow but I don't feel any less of a woman because of it.

I can't pretend to know what a trans person is thinking, but I can try to imagine what it would be like to feel so out of place with your body that you'd rather transition and put up with all this bullshit just to feel like yourself.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 05, 2021, 07:04:01 AM
I can't pretend to know what a trans person is thinking, but I can try to imagine what it would be like to feel so out of place with your body that you'd rather transition and put up with all this bullshit just to feel like yourself.

I don’t think anyone is denying that this is a real thing or that people who feel that way need help. The question is what the right help to give them is.

As Rushy has pointed out, medical consensus changes over time and this is a relatively new thing - new in the sense of it being a recognised condition.
There are all kinds of conditions where people feel that they aren’t right the way they are. Anorexics believe they are too fat when they are dangerously underweight. The treatment isn’t to help then lose more weight.
People with body dysmorphia believe they have flaws in their appearance which don’t exist. The treatment isn’t plastic surgery. 
It seems that this is the only condition of this nature where the “right” thing to do is now seen to be to pander to the person’s delusion.
It’s emperor’s new gender. He’s saying he’s a woman and instead of people going “hang on, what’s with the Adam’s apple and cock then?” people are just going along with it.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on June 05, 2021, 01:37:07 PM
That's the opposite of what I was saying. I referred to the stereotypes, which I don't personally follow but I don't feel any less of a woman because of it.

I can't pretend to know what a trans person is thinking, but I can try to imagine what it would be like to feel so out of place with your body that you'd rather transition and put up with all this bullshit just to feel like yourself.

What does it mean to 'transition'. What key difference is there between, say, a regular man and a man who has 'transitioned' into a woman? What does one have that the other does not?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 05, 2021, 04:49:28 PM
I can't pretend to know what a trans person is thinking, but I can try to imagine what it would be like to feel so out of place with your body that you'd rather transition and put up with all this bullshit just to feel like yourself.

I don’t think anyone is denying that this is a real thing or that people who feel that way need help. The question is what the right help to give them is.

As Rushy has pointed out, medical consensus changes over time and this is a relatively new thing - new in the sense of it being a recognised condition.
There are all kinds of conditions where people feel that they aren’t right the way they are. Anorexics believe they are too fat when they are dangerously underweight. The treatment isn’t to help then lose more weight.
People with body dysmorphia believe they have flaws in their appearance which don’t exist. The treatment isn’t plastic surgery. 
It seems that this is the only condition of this nature where the “right” thing to do is now seen to be to pander to the person’s delusion.
It’s emperor’s new gender. He’s saying he’s a woman and instead of people going “hang on, what’s with the Adam’s apple and cock then?” people are just going along with it.
It's not like no one tried therapy, the same you'd get for anorexia. But the outcomes typically showed that the symptoms didn't diminish or even got worse.

Lots of people get plastic surgery for body dysmorphia and there aren't laws trying to ban it or people saying they've mutilated their bodies.

If an MRI shows that a trans woman has a brain functionally and structurally comparable to other women and different than mens' brains, what would you suggest for the treatment? If that were the case it wouldn't mean they're "deluded" but that there is a real inconsistency with their bodies.

In the meantime, I'll let my friends know they should hate their new lives because some guys on the internet think it's weird and harmful like lobotomies. And that they shouldn't play sports because they might be taller than 5'4.

But I'm tired of talking about hypothetical people in their different treatments and journeys to healthier lives with people who are not doctors. Not all trans people have reassignment surgeries and for some it's a necessity. They shouldn't have to wait for someone to figure out a miracle cure that may never come when there is a fix that could help.

Not all trans athletes show up in sports and dominate the field, studies and reports have shown otherwise. Their advantages are not assured or that extreme to make a big difference.

Quote
In the more than eight years since the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) began allowing high school athletes to compete as the gender with which they identify — regardless of what they were assigned at birth — there has not been a single case in which a trans female athlete has been dominant enough to stir protest.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 05, 2021, 05:30:53 PM
It seems that this is the only condition of this nature where the “right” thing to do is now seen to be to pander to the person’s delusion.
That would be because, per current medical consensus (which may change, granted, but that doesn't particularly justify gammons sitting there and claiming they know better) it is not a condition of the same nature as your other examples.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 07, 2021, 11:04:26 AM
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.
Yes, high school boys can run faster than 10.49 seconds in the 100 meters.

Yes, high school boys teams can beat elite national women teams.

Just do your own research to understand who is writing the crap here.

Hint, it isn't me.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 07, 2021, 11:12:32 AM
I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.
Well how about we get schools girls running against greyhounds? Or racehorses? Young racehorses of course. I mean, we wouldn't want them to have an age advantage. A genetic advantage such as 4 legs or a Y-chromosome, no problem though.  ::)

And the arguments get sillier and sillier.

"I do not like your argument, therefore I will call it silly." - Rama Set
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 07, 2021, 11:17:17 AM
So I’ve just decided that I identify as a woman so can I go into the women’s locker rooms now? What do you mean no? Don’t you oppress me.

It's interesting how skeptics always seem to take it for granted that support for trans rights goes hand in hand with a credulous acceptance of anyone acting in bad faith as long as they say the magic words. I have absolutely no problem with using some common sense when allowing claimed transwomen into women's spaces. Saying "I identify as a woman" doesn't make you trans, and neither does wearing a wig and a dress.

Quote
I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.

You can call it whatever you want, but the phenomenon is very real. There are millions of people who feel the way they do, and they're not going to just "snap out of it" or go away no matter how certain you are that scientifically they shouldn't exist. We can either treat them with compassion or continue to marginalize and isolate them, and I feel that making appeals to scientific accuracy is a very poor justification for the latter, especially when the burden placed on society and individuals for "pandering" to them is such a trivial one.

It should be utterly illegal to prevent a person going through puberty and mucking about with their development whilst they are children. You do not know your own mind as a child and should not be able to consent. If you can't consent to sex until you are 16/17, why is it you can consent to being castrated and filled with hormones at the age of 10? That's some pretty fucked up liberal logic right there.

This does not happen. If there's one piece of misinformation above all that needs to be corrected, it's this. Children who believe they may be transgender are not given life-altering surgeries or chemical treatments. At most, they receive puberty blockers in their adolescence to delay - not permanently prevent, but delay - the effects of puberty until they're old enough to make a decision about how they want to live their life. It's not always perfect. I feel awful for the woman in the article you linked, but she was seventeen when she began taking male hormones, and twenty when she had her breasts removed. She wasn't a brainwashed child. Wherever there are major medical procedures, there will be people who undergo them and later regret doing so. I don't think that's an effective argument for getting rid of them altogether.

Also, here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2021/04/22/transgender-child-sports-treatments/) is a good article that details much of the science behind all this, as well as the rules and procedures for treating trans youth. A lot of this is admittedly specific to America, but I would be astonished if things were especially different in any other Western nation.
Yeah, the typical response from a lib.

"I feel oppressed!" - lib

"Why? What happened?" - Anyone

"Nothing!" I just feel oppressed!" - lib
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 07, 2021, 11:41:52 AM
You say that a girl isn't necessarily one that wears dresses or has long hair, so we can't go by physical choices, then. So, what does a girl have that a boy does not? If we go back to 'female brain', what does a female brain do that a male brain does not?
According to the link I posted it has more to do with structure and volume as opposed to what a female brain "does." You're going to have to ask these medical researchers what the significance of the brain structure is.

You're not going to get anything you want from me with this question. There is no one way to be or do anything. Hell, I break a lot of typical female stereotypes. I know of a couple trans women that are way more feminine than I am. This is pointless.
Yeah, it's pointless, because you know damn good and well what a girl is and it just so happens to be you don't have the balls to answer the fucking question.

Which happens to be a good thing, by the way.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 07, 2021, 01:03:19 PM
In the news this week ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57338207

This one is spicy because not only does this 'transwoman' want to compete, but he/she also wants to compete against female disabled athletes. Now ... Rooster, when you see the image of 'her' winning below ... do you think testosterone level should be the only consideration?

(https://www.atleticalive.it/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/img-20201011-wa00091557899499-e1602422041275.jpg)

^ Does this look like a fair fight to you ... or a farse?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 07, 2021, 03:26:51 PM
In the news this week ...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57338207

This one is spicy because not only does this 'transwoman' want to compete, but he/she also wants to compete against female disabled athletes. Now ... Rooster, when you see the image of 'her' winning below ... do you think testosterone level should be the only consideration?

(https://www.atleticalive.it/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/img-20201011-wa00091557899499-e1602422041275.jpg)

^ Does this look like a fair fight to you ... or a farse?

Well, she is a disabled woman.

Quote
Valentina Petrillo: 'Better to be a slow happy woman than a fast unhappy man'
Good for her.

Quote
"Transgender women are now powering their larger frames with reduced muscle mass and reduced aerobic capacity and that can lead to disadvantages in terms of things like quickness, recovery and endurance."
Advantages are not guaranteed. But in the article they did mention the possibility of using handicaps where there is a clear advantage, which is not a bad idea if necessary. A middle ground where everyone is happy would be best.

Also, this is another person who transitioned later in life. She went through male puberty, which someone transitioning during highschool possibly will not do. The OP is about banning kids from sports.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 07, 2021, 03:35:30 PM
The OP is about banning kids from sports.
Hmmm...

How can you possibly comment on this issue at all, when you have no clue about what the OP even is?

I defy you to find mention of banning kids from sports in the OP.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 07, 2021, 03:47:39 PM
The OP is about banning kids from sports.
Hmmm...

How can you possibly comment on this issue at all, when you have no clue about what the OP even is?

I defy you to find mention of banning kids from sports in the OP.

The first sentence of the article posted in the OP
Quote
On June 1, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis signed a bill into law that would ban trans athletes from participating on female sports teams at the high school and college level.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 07, 2021, 04:11:10 PM
The OP is about banning kids from sports.
Hmmm...

How can you possibly comment on this issue at all, when you have no clue about what the OP even is?

I defy you to find mention of banning kids from sports in the OP.

The first sentence of the article posted in the OP
Quote
On June 1, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis signed a bill into law that would ban trans athletes from participating on female sports teams at the high school and college level.
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 07, 2021, 04:17:42 PM
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 07, 2021, 05:46:38 PM
Boys who think they are girls are simply boys who think that they are girls. They are not biological girls.

They have a gender identity which takes place in their head, as is argued by trannie proponents themselves. A physical sport involves more than the head, however. It involves the whole body. Despite whether the physical reality of the female brain is valid, it is agreed that they have male bodies, and so it is unfair for transexual males to compete with girls in girl sports.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 07, 2021, 05:57:18 PM
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.

What is all this 'identifying' horseshit coming out of the USA?

If you are identified as a murderer ... you identifying yourself as a non-murderer isn't worth a squirrel's nutsack. And if society identifies you as a man ... it isn't every human alive who needs to be constantly corrected to the contrary. That's just ridiculous. Its like those vacuous celebs who give you a list of preferred pronouns in their Twitter bio. I can't even remember your names, let alone which pronoun you each prefer ... less do I care.  >o<

If Johnny 'identifies' as a girl, it isn't all his teachers and classmates and relatives and friends and everyone else who need to be corrected. Its Johnny. Johnny is the one with gender dysmorphia.

Another fallacy ... "I was born in the wrong body". Well we can all play that game. I should have been born in Henry Cavill's body. But I wasn't. And no amount of telling people that I'm Henry Cavill is going to turn me into superman. You were born into the body you have. We could all pick one we prefer. That doesn't mean we get to pretend to be the identity we want to emulate.

So, if Johnny is a boy ... he competes with the boys. It may be easier to compete against girls. He may have more success against girls. He may prefer competing against girls. But newsflash ... the girls don't want to compete against him. In my article.
Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57338207
Her[sic] physical superiority is so evident as to make competition unfair ... If she[sic] wants to run with us we would be happy for her[sic] to do so. We will always welcome her[sic] but we don't want her[sic] to compete with us for titles

Who decided that Johnny was so precious and mustn't ever hear the word no? "Can I compete against the girls?" ... "No Johnny, you're a 175 pound dude, stop being a prick". Its pretty easy.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 08, 2021, 10:17:51 AM
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.
How you identify is irrelevant.

If I suddenly show up demanding a senior citizen discount at my local restaurant because I feel 65 years old, they are under no obligation to cater to my feelings because the reality is I am not 65 years old despite my feelings.

How does this fact escape you?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2021, 12:05:16 PM
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.
How you identify is irrelevant.

If I suddenly show up demanding a senior citizen discount at my local restaurant because I feel 65 years old, they are under no obligation to cater to my feelings because the reality is I am not 65 years old despite my feelings.

How does this fact escape you?

You should discuss this with doctors. The medical professionals have been studying transgendered people for 100+ years and the consensus is that your characterization is incorrect. Despite the protests against acting on feelings, you, Thork and Tom have been making emotional pleas draped in post hoc  rationalizations.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 08, 2021, 12:07:35 PM
Tbh, I've always thought that people "identifying as"... was complete horseshit, but rooster's link about brain structure was interesting and has made me think twice.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 08, 2021, 02:12:21 PM
Tbh, I've always thought that people "identifying as"... was complete horseshit
I think this highlights an important problem with the language we've chosen to describe these issues. It sounds a lot like "meh, they just decided they're XYZ now", and that implication is probably doing a lot of harm to public understanding. Though I have absolutely no idea how it could be described better.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on June 08, 2021, 02:18:18 PM
Rather than argue about whether gender identity is valid, it may be more constructive to take it for granted and instead consider the goal of having separate sporting events for men and women. My understanding of the goal is that it gives women a fair chance to win events without competition from (on average) physically stronger men. That is, gender is not important per se, but rather the fact that half the population is not on a level playing field with the other half. If women were equal to men in physical strength, but brown-haired people were weaker than blonde-haired people, we would instead have sporting events segregated by hair colour.

If we accept, then, that gender is no more than an incidental part of the reason why we have women's sporting events, we can begin to consider what is significant. I can see a few options:
The first option would undoubtedly mean that men win most events, which would upset feminists and risk injury to women in contact sports, so it is not ideal. The second is extremely difficult to get right due to the fact that differences between the sexes are only broad averages, so whatever standard is chosen, it will do nothing to settle the controversy.

I therefore posit that the third and fourth options are the only workable ones. That is, we need a reform of gender-segregated sport. The question is whether to base the admission criteria on physical sex, or on some other means of classifying physical strength.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 02:27:27 PM
What a rubbish post.

We have men's and women's events so that everyone has the opportunity to compete. The women's event is a handicapped event. In boxing, you don't put a 15 stone fighter up against a 9 stone fighter. The outcome is obvious  as 9 stone men wouldn't be able to compete and no one would enjoy it. Well, maybe for a little bit we'd all enjoy watching little guys getting the crap beaten out of them, but its not competitive.

Now when we segregate on sex, that's a handicap event too. The handicap being you have no y-chromosome. If you don't have a y-chromosome, you can compete in the women's. You qualify. If you do have a y-chromosome ... we call you a 'man' and you can compete in the open competition ... the mens. It is so simple.

"Ahhh, xxy chromosomes ... ok, that's a bit odd ... you definitely aren't a woman and you aren't strictly speaking a man either, but you are free to compete in the open competition with the men. Good luck."

Competing with the men needs to be the default ... unless you lack a y-chromosome. But of course, left-wing politics doesn't like that. They think we are all the same. It collides with their weird world view. So they insist we test on hormone levels instead, knowing full well that isn't the only advantage men have over women. It is the politics that is rotten.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 08, 2021, 03:36:41 PM
  • Abolish gender segregation in sport, but establish a tiered system where athletes compete against people of similar physical stature to them, regardless of sex or gender.
While reading through articles about trans athletes, I saw this one suggested a couple times. It's not a bad idea, there are already weight divisions for some sports. I imagine for things like track it would still be largely gender segregated. But if the requirements are technically based on physical merit then you could still have overlap and it would seem less cruel to trans athletes.

Also, we're really over looking team sports here: low risk of injury (outside of American football) and based on team strength rather than individuals. I played on a mixed gender soccer team for a season and it was fine. I mean, our team was shit but that's because we had two guys who show-boated the entire time and never actually played as part of a team. Me and another guy even collided and went down but I didn't break any oh so fragile feminine bones under him or anything.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 08, 2021, 03:48:09 PM
That clearly does not state trans kids are banned from playing sports.
Ah, I assume you're suggesting they play sports on the team they don't identify with. Neat.
How you identify is irrelevant.

If I suddenly show up demanding a senior citizen discount at my local restaurant because I feel 65 years old, they are under no obligation to cater to my feelings because the reality is I am not 65 years old despite my feelings.

How does this fact escape you?

You should discuss this with doctors. The medical professionals have been studying transgendered people for 100+ years and the consensus is that your characterization is incorrect. Despite the protests against acting on feelings, you, Thork and Tom have been making emotional pleas draped in post hoc  rationalizations.
I have discussed it with doctors. They simply want to push more pills.

Still doesn't change the fact that I am not 65 years old.

You advocate listening to drug dealers for sound advice of any sort?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 04:04:19 PM
Where no advantage is conferred, we already mix the sexes. Horse riding for example has no men's and women's. They compete on an equal footing.

However ... there are sports at a first glance you'd expect men and women to be equal at. Snooker is one. I mean, that's not strength or stamina based. Its all about skill and hand eye co-ordination. And yet women do not stand a chance against the men.

Watch the video below. In it ... snooker supremo Ronnie O'Sullivan plays the current reigning female world champion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NemV93mEmvQ

He laid a 147 on her in the opening frame!

No woman has ever hit a 147 in the history of the game. And there at an exhibition he just smokes her. She has never ever faced firepower like that in her career.

That women in the video is the greatest female player ever and has been female world champion 12 times!

Her highest ever break is 118. She has only ever hit 2 century breaks in her life. How can she possibly compete against a guy that just dropped a 147 in an exhibition and who has made over 1000 century breaks over his career?

If she were to compete against men, she wouldn't even be in the top 10,000. In other words there would be no women's professional snooker if you mixed the sexes. No women would ever qualify for a tournament. So ... if a half decent male snooker player decides to identify as a woman ... do you think a drop in testosterone is going to make it fair?

It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity. The average for the top female darts player this year for women is Anca Zijlstra averaging 88.41 and it s a huge drop off to second place where a few ladies average around 82ish per 3 darts. The top guy this year is averaging 123.4. It isn't remotely close.

No tiered structure you could imagine is going to give women an equal footing. It is not just about height, weight or hormones. There are so many differences and they are not addressed during sex change operations. They don't make you terrible at snooker when they try to turn you into a woman, nor do they make you terrible at darts and nor do they make you terrible at driving. ... They cannot make you a woman. Only a pale imitation that is pretty unconvincing.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on June 08, 2021, 04:09:39 PM
Also, we're really over looking team sports here: low risk of injury (outside of American football) and based on team strength rather than individuals. I played on a mixed gender soccer team for a season and it was fine. I mean, our team was shit but that's because we had two guys who show-boated the entire time and never actually played as part of a team. Me and another guy even collided and went down but I didn't break any oh so fragile feminine bones under him or anything.
That may be the case most of the time, but given how biased public perception of gender-based violence is against men, I really wouldn't want to be the man who bumps into a woman and risks an accusation of assault. An accusation of being unreasonably physical from another man is far less damaging than an accusation from a woman. Until we fix that, I wouldn't be surprised if men don't want to be in mixed-gender teams with women they don't know well.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 08, 2021, 04:15:06 PM
That may be the case most of the time, but given how biased public perception of gender-based violence is against men, I really wouldn't want to be the man who bumps into a woman and risks an accusation of assault. An accusation of being unreasonably physical from another man is far less damaging than an accusation from a woman. Until we fix that, I wouldn't be surprised if men don't want to be in mixed-gender teams with women they don't know well.
In team sports it's usually pretty clear what happened. If someone is unnecessarily aggressive they're already warned/removed from the game. I don't think what you're suggesting would be a rampant problem.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 08, 2021, 04:18:54 PM
Where no advantage is conferred, we already mix the sexes. Horse riding for example has no men's and women's. They compete on an equal footing.

However ... there are sports at a first glance you'd expect men and women to be equal at. Snooker is one. I mean, that's not strength or stamina based. Its all about skill and hand eye co-ordination. And yet women do not stand a chance against the men.

Watch the video below. In it ... snooker supremo Ronnie O'Sullivan plays the current reigning female world champion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NemV93mEmvQ

He laid a 147 on her in the opening frame!

No woman has ever hit a 147 in the history of the game. And there at an exhibition he just smokes her. She has never ever faced firepower like that in her career.

That women in the video is the greatest female player ever and has been female world champion 12 times!

Her highest ever break is 118. She has only ever hit 2 century breaks in her life. How can she possibly compete against a guy that just dropped a 147 in an exhibition and who has made over 1000 century breaks over his career?

If she were to compete against men, she wouldn't even be in the top 10,000. In other words there would be no women's professional snooker if you mixed the sexes. No women would ever qualify for a tournament. So ... if a half decent male snooker player decides to identify as a woman ... do you think a drop in testosterone is going to make it fair?

It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity. The average for the top female darts player this year for women is Anca Zijlstra averaging 88.41 and it s a huge drop off to second place where a few ladies average around 82ish per 3 darts. The top guy this year is averaging 123.4. It isn't remotely close.

No tiered structure you could imagine is going to give women an equal footing. It is not just about height, weight or hormones. There are so many differences and they are not addressed during sex change operations. They don't make you terrible at snooker when they try to turn you into a woman, nor do they make you terrible at darts and nor do they make you terrible at driving. ... They cannot make you a woman. Only a pale imitation that is pretty unconvincing.
That was goddamn amazing!
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 04:19:45 PM
An accusation of being unreasonably physical from another man is far less damaging than an accusation from a woman. Until we fix that
It doesn't need fixing you leftist weirdo!  >o<

Men and woman are not the same and we shouldn't be changing perceptions that it is ok to hurt women. What is wrong with you? Liberalism is a horrible brain disease. I wish there was a cure for you.


Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pongo on June 08, 2021, 04:22:02 PM
It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity.

There could be parity in abilities across gender AND a large discrepancy between the top preforming peoples in a task between genders.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 04:33:46 PM
It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity.

There could be parity in abilities across gender AND a large discrepancy between the top preforming peoples in a task between genders.
Its not just strength and stamina. Transgender apologists try to always boil sport differences down to this to make it seem like the differences are surmountable. But they are not. There are far more differences. Women cannot compete at shooting sports for example. Nor racing driving. But they absolutely can compete in music. A pianist can be every bit as good female as male. You'd need to work out what the difference between playing an instrument and playing snooker is.

Below is a young woman playing the guitar. I'd wager there aren't many men on earth that can play like her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6rBK0BqL2w
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pongo on June 08, 2021, 04:39:11 PM
It is the exact same story with darts. You'd expect parity.

There could be parity in abilities across gender AND a large discrepancy between the top preforming peoples in a task between genders.
Its not just strength and stamina. Transgender apologists try to always boil sport differences down to this to make it seem like the differences are surmountable. But they are not. There are far more differences. Women cannot compete at shooting sports for example. Nor racing driving. But they absolutely can compete in music. A pianist can be every bit as good female as male. You'd need to work out what the difference between playing an instrument and playing snooker is.

Below is a young woman playing the guitar. I'd wager there aren't many men on earth that can play like her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6rBK0BqL2w

There is a chance, albeit small, that you may be neglecting to consider the size of the populations of the competitors when determining absolute gender ability. But probably not.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 04:42:44 PM
I just feel segregation in sport isn't something that is broken and therefore it isn't something we should try to fix. But 'progressives' love to make change for the sake of change and to hell with the consequences for other people. They think it helps them get closer to Utopia.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pongo on June 08, 2021, 05:09:19 PM
I just feel segregation in sport isn't something that is broken and therefore it isn't something we should try to fix. But 'progressives' love to make change for the sake of change and to hell with the consequences for other people. They think it helps them get closer to Utopia.

I think you're overthinking it. I think it's the difference between group desires versus individual desires. Does mixing genders in sports make them unfair? Yes. Does allowing transgender people to play a sport as the gender they see themselves give them a more normalized life? Yes.

The two are however, and unfortunately, at odds. You cannot allow some individuals to pick where they want to compete and retain fairness. In the same way that you cannot disallow some individuals from competing and preserving individual happiness. So the question really boils down what do we care about more? Do we care more about the fairness of a sport or the happiness of the individual?

Both sides have merit, I can see that. However, non-professional level sports, in my opinion, should be more focused on fun and health than on striving to achieve a level of fairness at the cost of individual happiness. And to be clear, this isn't a perfect solution. In many ways it's the lesser of two evils. What about the happiness of the people who get outperformed by a transgender athlete? What happens at a professional level? These questions and more do not have clean answers, but one positive is that we live in a society where we get to be outraged by these issues. Society has not yet accepted an answer to these questions, but lets not forget that our fathers before us didn't even have the opportunity for discourse.

We should all thank Thork, for without his contrived bigotry we wouldn't be having the discussion that moves society closer to a solution. So, however small that step may be and whatever direction it takes us, thank you, Thork.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 08, 2021, 05:29:54 PM
Even transwoman activist Caitlyn Jenner, a former Olympic champion, says that transexuals shouldn't be in girl's sports.

 https://www.tmz.com/2021/05/01/caitlyn-jenner-trans-girls-ban-sports-biological-boys/

Quote
CAITLYN JENNER - If You're a Biological Boy ... YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN GIRLS' SPORTS

EXCLUSIVE
5/2/2021 7:11 AM PT
TMZ.com

Caitlyn Jenner has a take on trans athletes you might not expect -- namely, if you're born as a biological boy, you shouldn't be allowed to compete in girls' sports ... at least while you're still in school, anyway.

We got the California gubernatorial hopeful Saturday in Malibu, and she weighed in on her first big political issue as she takes center stage in her run for Gavin Newsom's job -- telling TMZ she doesn't support trans girls born as boys participating in all-female school sports.

Yeah, we know ... it's a pretty interesting stance -- especially coming from Caitlyn ... who of course, is a trans woman herself AND a former Olympic champion. But, check out her rationale ... she chalks it up to fairness and protecting the integrity of girls' sports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LfIvniP7Lk&ab_channel=TMZSports
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2021, 06:00:25 PM
You advocate listening to drug dealers for sound advice of any sort?

You clearly do:

In my sister's case, a combination of pneumonia (doctor stated bacterial, likely due to the issue of MASK BS) and undiagnosed (due to no regular screenings) spreading of prior breast cancer.

Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

This is you holding up MDs as authorities. I recommend you stay consistent, one way or the other.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2021, 06:01:40 PM
Even transwoman activist Caitlyn Jenner, a former Olympic champion, says that transexuals shouldn't be in girl's sports.

 https://www.tmz.com/2021/05/01/caitlyn-jenner-trans-girls-ban-sports-biological-boys/

Quote
CAITLYN JENNER - If You're a Biological Boy ... YOU SHOULDN'T BE IN GIRLS' SPORTS

EXCLUSIVE
5/2/2021 7:11 AM PT
TMZ.com

Caitlyn Jenner has a take on trans athletes you might not expect -- namely, if you're born as a biological boy, you shouldn't be allowed to compete in girls' sports ... at least while you're still in school, anyway.

We got the California gubernatorial hopeful Saturday in Malibu, and she weighed in on her first big political issue as she takes center stage in her run for Gavin Newsom's job -- telling TMZ she doesn't support trans girls born as boys participating in all-female school sports.

Yeah, we know ... it's a pretty interesting stance -- especially coming from Caitlyn ... who of course, is a trans woman herself AND a former Olympic champion. But, check out her rationale ... she chalks it up to fairness and protecting the integrity of girls' sports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LfIvniP7Lk&ab_channel=TMZSports

Nice appeal to authority. Unfortunately, she isn’t a medical professional.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 06:15:29 PM
Nice appeal to authority. Unfortunately, she isn’t a medical professional.
And you literally appealed to authority.

What will a medical professional tell you? They are all frightened for their jobs and say whatever blows along with the political winds. If they don't, they are deplatformed and you'll never hear from them. You described Caitlan Jenner as a She. It isn't a she. It's a he. And he isn't a transwoman. We also have a word for what he is, but you aren't allowed to use it. The word is eunuch. And that eunuch knows that eunuchs should not compete against women because they have advantages. He knows this because he is one.

But no doctor will describe a eunuch as a eunuch. They will call them a 'transwoman'. Utterly false. Utterly deceptive. They aren't women nor are they becoming women. It is this constant manipulation of the language to alter perceptions. You don't have buggery anymore. It is normalised as 'gay sex'. You don't get immigrants. They are now migrants. A lie. Migrants are seasonal workers who go home. Immigrants rarely go home.

Do I need a word salad of an explanation from a doctor to decide if a eunuch should compete against women? No. I can see them absolutely dominating already and know it's a stupid idea. But Liberals don't learn. They are ideologues and facts aren't as important as their feelings.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2021, 07:34:02 PM
Nice appeal to authority. Unfortunately, she isn’t a medical professional.
And you literally appealed to authority.

Too bad you can’t/won’t see the difference between citing medical consensus vs a celebrity on the topic of medical consensus.

Quote
What will a medical professional tell you? They are all frightened for their jobs and say whatever blows along with the political winds. If they don't, they are deplatformed and you'll never hear from them. You described Caitlan Jenner as a She. It isn't a she. It's a he. And he isn't a transwoman. We also have a word for what he is, but you aren't allowed to use it. The word is eunuch. And that eunuch knows that eunuchs should not compete against women because they have advantages. He knows this because he is one.

But no doctor will describe a eunuch as a eunuch. They will call them a 'transwoman'. Utterly false. Utterly deceptive. They aren't women nor are they becoming women. It is this constant manipulation of the language to alter perceptions. You don't have buggery anymore. It is normalised as 'gay sex'. You don't get immigrants. They are now migrants. A lie. Migrants are seasonal workers who go home. Immigrants rarely go home.

Do I need a word salad of an explanation from a doctor to decide if a eunuch should compete against women? No. I can see them absolutely dominating already and know it's a stupid idea. But Liberals don't learn. They are ideologues and facts aren't as important as their feelings.

Nice opinion. Imagine being the one to reject medical consensus because you are opposed to an idea and then accusing others of favoring feelings over facts.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 08:17:09 PM
Medical consensus ... a political football of yes men desperate to further their academic careers from left wing ivory towers ... vs the lived experience of a eunuch.

I have zero faith in medical science these days. They lie about absolutely everything.

Quote from: Dr Fauchi
There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is.

Quote from: Dr Fauchi
It is common sense to wear two masks instead of one.

Did the science change or the politics?

We went from 'Couldn't possibly be a man made disease in Wuhan and you are a conspiracy theorist who needs to have your tweets removed if you suggest it' to 'It is most likely a man made disease from Wuhan due to gain of function research that Dr Fauchi himself was writing cheques for'. 

What changed ... the scientific evidence or the politics?

Why would I believe a profession that is only interested in protecting corporate profits and its own hegemony at all costs? Is identity politics a political issue? If it is ... you cannot believe a word from the medical profession. An utterly compromised industry of liars.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: stack on June 08, 2021, 08:57:33 PM
Did the science change or the politics?

Science (and resources). Look up why it changed. You may learn something.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2021, 08:58:36 PM
Medical consensus ... a political football of yes men desperate to further their academic careers from left wing ivory towers ... vs the lived experience of a eunuch.

I have zero faith in medical science these days. They lie about absolutely everything.

Quote from: Dr Fauchi
There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is.

Quote from: Dr Fauchi
It is common sense to wear two masks instead of one.

Did the science change or the politics?

We went from 'Couldn't possibly be a man made disease in Wuhan and you are a conspiracy theorist who needs to have your tweets removed if you suggest it' to 'It is most likely a man made disease from Wuhan due to gain of function research that Dr Fauchi himself was writing cheques for'. 

What changed ... the scientific evidence or the politics?

Why would I believe a profession that is only interested in protecting corporate profits and its own hegemony at all costs? Is identity politics a political issue? If it is ... you cannot believe a word from the medical profession. An utterly compromised industry of liars.

You’re obviously welcome to be as cynical as you like, but try and be aware enough to realize that it is utterly unconvincing. We all know you will put your life in the hands of these villains if you have an emergency. You just can’t square the circle of how they reached a conclusion that disgusts you personally.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 09:04:17 PM
You’re obviously welcome to be as cynical as you like, but try and be aware enough to realize that it is utterly unconvincing. We all know you will put your life in the hands of these villains if you have an emergency.
Yup. If I was on fire and there was a bucket of liquid next to me, I'd take the chance and hope it was water and not gasoline. When you've nothing to lose, sure, roll the dice. But I wouldn't volunteer myself for a medical research job for example. Imagine putting your life in their hands whilst they fill you with drugs that they think might be helpful.  ::)

You just can’t square the circle of how they reached a conclusion that disgusts you personally.
They can be wrong.

I like watching football.

(https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2020/08/24114250/taking-a-knee-new-season-community-shield-e1598288685533.jpg)
But I don't agree with black lives matter. Just because the footballers say defunding the police is a good idea doesn't mean it is, nor does it mean they can't play football.

Just because the medical profession says a eunuch is a woman doesn't make them right, but that doesn't mean they can't fix a broken arm.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2021, 09:17:03 PM
What a horrible analogy. Football players are not sociology experts. Are you noticing how wildly inconsistent you are here? Perhaps you might think about how you could be convinced of the reality of the trans experience and then see if your mind could be changed?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 09:24:56 PM
What a horrible analogy.
You presented a ridiculous notion that because some things doctors do are scientifically sound ... everything they do must be scientifically sound. I should have just said ... don't be retarted.

Perhaps you might think about how you could be convinced of the reality of the trans experience and then see if your mind could be changed?
How I could be convinced of what?

Do I believe in gender dysmorphia? Sure. Sounds pretty legit. Tick. It's a thing. Likely requires lots of therapy assuming it can ever be cured/improved.
Do I think scientists/doctors can change your sex because they say they can? No. They cannot change your sex. They can call you 'she' as much as they like but every cell in your body has a y-chromosome. You are utterly male, albeit now mutilated in some way by them either with hormone treatments, castration, silicon implants ... whatever. None of these things change your sex and when doctors call it a sex-change ... they are lying. They cannot change your sex. There is no trans. You aren't transitioning.

Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2021, 09:45:23 PM
What a horrible analogy.
You presented a ridiculous notion that because some things doctors do are scientifically sound ... everything they do must be scientifically sound. I should have just said ... don't be retarted.

Oh you didn’t even understand what I wrote. That’s a problem. If you want me to clarify anything, just ask.

How I could be convinced of what?

Do I believe in gender dysmorphia?

It’s body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. La Xasop should add this to your list.

Quote
Sure. Sounds pretty legit. Tick. It's a thing. Likely requires lots of therapy assuming it can every be cured/improved.
Do I think scientists/doctors can change your sex because they say they can? No. They cannot change your sex. They can call you 'she' as much as they like but every cell in your body has a y-chromosome. You are utterly male, albeit now mutilated in some way by them either with hormone treatments, castration, silicon implants ... whatever. None of these things change your sex and when doctors call it a sex-change ... they are lying. They cannot change your sex. There is no trans. You aren't transitioning.

So your problem is just that trans women can’t produce ova and trans men can’t produce sperm? If that’s it, then we are talking across each other. Yes, at this time, we can not change primary sexual characteristics of people surgically. How would your position change if we could? It seems a complicated but eminently solvable problem.

As a side note, you can be born male with no Y chromosome. Biological sex isn’t entirely binary. The definition of biological sexes is based on the gametes the organism produces however you have humans that produce both or no gametes. Biological sex and the subsequent gender roles attached to them are not cut and dry issues for some small subsect of people and the more it is studied the more we have moved away from defining transexuals as delusional. It’s a similar process that society went through with homosexuality 40 years ago and the change to acceptance is playing out in a very similar way, on a social level.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 09:50:06 PM
Ok, I did some more research. I am now completely and utterly satisfied that boys who are prevented from going through puberty should not be able to compete with girls.


Behold ... the castrato. These were boys castrated before puberty in order to retain a singing voice for the church. This was outlawed in every country on earth by 1870.

Read the next bit ... it is very important ...

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato
As the castrato's body grew, his lack of testosterone meant that his epiphyses (bone-joints) did not harden in the normal manner. Thus the limbs of the castrati often grew unusually long, as did their ribs. This, combined with intensive training, gave them unrivalled lung-power and breath capacity.

So ... elongated limbs and unrivalled lung capacity ... sounds like a huge advantage in sport.

Please observe this painting below. It is called 'The paradox of the castrati'. The paradox being the fucking size of them.  :o
(https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/bd7465acb38e33d15e1caf6e085d7526bde274e5/17-Figure1-1.png)

link (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-Paradox-of-the-Castrato-Breda/bd7465acb38e33d15e1caf6e085d7526bde274e5/figure/0)

Cutting off your testosterone before puberty is going to make you 7 feet tall and have enormous lung capacity. No way they should compete with women. This should never be relegalised. A regressive step by the regressive left. We outlawed this 150 years ago and the left want to bring it back.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 08, 2021, 09:58:34 PM
(https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/bd7465acb38e33d15e1caf6e085d7526bde274e5/18-Figure3-1.png)
Another one.

I had no idea eunuchs were so tall!
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 08, 2021, 11:37:13 PM
Puberty blockers do not completely stop the production of testosterone while allowing estrogen to continue production in the brain. This is an extremely silly reach. As you rage google, you might want to look up relevant topics.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pongo on June 09, 2021, 02:28:51 AM
I had no idea eunuchs were so tall!

Wow, someone's not read Mistborn!
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 09, 2021, 09:34:13 AM
Wow, someone's not read Mistborn!
I've never even heard of it. I shall add it to my will read but won't ever get round to reading it list.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on June 09, 2021, 10:05:59 AM
You advocate listening to drug dealers for sound advice of any sort?

You clearly do:

In my sister's case, a combination of pneumonia (doctor stated bacterial, likely due to the issue of MASK BS) and undiagnosed (due to no regular screenings) spreading of prior breast cancer.

Good to hear you know more than a licensed MD.

This is you holding up MDs as authorities. I recommend you stay consistent, one way or the other.
If you were holding up solicited advice or opinion as a point, you would have one.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pongo on June 09, 2021, 03:52:45 PM
Wow, someone's not read Mistborn!
I've never even heard of it. I shall add it to my will read but won't ever get round to reading it list.

That's what I would recommend.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 27, 2021, 06:58:03 PM
Do transgenders also have a right to expose themselves to little girls in locker rooms?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNterJmIHJs&ab_channel=TYPCAM
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 27, 2021, 11:31:11 PM
Do transgenders also have a right to expose themselves to little girls in locker rooms?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNterJmIHJs&ab_channel=TYPCAM

Exposing yourself sexually to a minor is always a crime. You know that, I hope?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 27, 2021, 11:34:17 PM
Right. How about no one gets naked in front of other people in public spaces? Locker room nudity has always been weird to me. Change behind a curtain stall or something.

Over sexualization of bodies is sad, but since we're here I'd rather not see a stranger's vagina or penis tbh.

And if we agree to not get naked in front of strangers in shared public spaces, then the locker rooms can be co-ed for all I care.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 28, 2021, 12:45:34 AM
Do transgenders also have a right to expose themselves to little girls in locker rooms?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNterJmIHJs&ab_channel=TYPCAM

Exposing yourself sexually to a minor is always a crime. You know that, I hope?

Incorrect. It's generally only a crime if the intent is for sexual gratification.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/nudity-and-public-decency-laws-in-america-31193

Quote
CONNECTICUT
* § 53a-186. Public indecency: Class B misdemeanor.

(a) A person is guilty of public indecency when he performs any of the following acts in a public place:
(1) An act of sexual intercourse as defined in subdivision (2) of section 53a-65; or
(2) a lewd exposure of the body with intent to arouse or to satisfy the sexual desire of the person; or
(3) a lewd fondling or caress of the body of another person.
For the purposes of this section, “public place” means any place where the conduct may reasonably be expected to be viewed by others.
(b) Public indecency is a class B misdemeanor.

Quote
ILLINOIS
* Sec. 11-9. Public Indecency.

(a) Any person of the age of 17 years and upwards who performs any of the following acts in a public place commits a public indecency:

(1) An act of sexual penetration or sexual conduct as defined in Section 12-12 of this Code; or

(2) A lewd exposure of the body done with intent to arouse or to satisfy the sexual desire of the person.
Breast-feeding of infants is not an act of public indecency.


(b) “Public place” for purposes of this Section means any place where the conduct may reasonably be expected to be viewed by others.

Quote
KANSAS
* 21-3508. Lewd and lascivious behavior.
(a) Lewd and lascivious behavior is:
(1) Publicly engaging in otherwise lawful sexual intercourse or sodomy with knowledge or reasonable anticipation that the participants are being viewed by others; or

(2) publicly exposing a sex organ or exposing a sex organ in the presence of a person who is not the spouse of the offender and who has not consented thereto, with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desires of the offender or another.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Iceman on June 28, 2021, 01:00:56 AM
Do transgenders also have a right to expose themselves to little girls in locker rooms?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNterJmIHJs&ab_channel=TYPCAM

Exposing yourself sexually to a minor is always a crime. You know that, I hope?

Incorrect. It's generally only a crime if the intent is for sexual gratification.

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/nudity-and-public-decency-laws-in-america-31193

Quote
CONNECTICUT
* § 53a-186. Public indecency: Class B misdemeanor.

(a) A person is guilty of public indecency when he performs any of the following acts in a public place:
(1) An act of sexual intercourse as defined in subdivision (2) of section 53a-65; or
(2) a lewd exposure of the body with intent to arouse or to satisfy the sexual desire of the person; or
(3) a lewd fondling or caress of the body of another person.
For the purposes of this section, “public place” means any place where the conduct may reasonably be expected to be viewed by others.
(b) Public indecency is a class B misdemeanor.

Where are you even trying to go with this one weird example and now ridiculous follow-up?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 28, 2021, 01:06:43 AM
Where are you even trying to go with this one weird example and now ridiculous follow-up?

The rebuttal was simply incorrect. Indecent exposure is generally not a crime unless there is intent for sexual gratification. The claim that it is "always a crime" is incorrect. So there is still the issue of transsexuals legally parading their privates in front of girls in locker rooms.

Even in socialist Canada there is a similar disclaimer:

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-173.html

Quote
Indecent acts

173 (1) Everyone who wilfully does an indecent act in a public place in the presence of one or more persons, or in any place with intent to insult or offend any person,

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than two years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Exposure

(2) Every person who, in any place, for a sexual purpose, exposes his or her genital organs to a person who is under the age of 16 years

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than two years and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of 90 days; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction and is liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of 30 days.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: honk on June 28, 2021, 01:26:22 AM
So there still the issue of transsexuals legally parading their privates in front of girls in locker rooms.

That's no more of an "issue" for them than it is for non-transgender people. If boys can handle catching an occasional glimpse of a man's dick, I'm sure girls can too.

Also, if anyone is curious about Tom's video but couldn't be bothered to actually watch it, it's literally just a crazy woman yelling at strangers about trans people. That's all there is to it.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 28, 2021, 09:57:04 AM
Where are you even trying to go with this one weird example and now ridiculous follow-up?

The rebuttal was simply incorrect. Indecent exposure is generally not a crime unless there is intent for sexual gratification. The claim that it is "always a crime" is incorrect. So there is still the issue of transsexuals legally parading their privates in front of girls in locker rooms.

Even in socialist Canada there is a similar disclaimer:

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-173.html

Quote
Indecent acts

173 (1) Everyone who wilfully does an indecent act in a public place in the presence of one or more persons, or in any place with intent to insult or offend any person,

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than two years; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Exposure

(2) Every person who, in any place, for a sexual purpose, exposes his or her genital organs to a person who is under the age of 16 years

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than two years and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of 90 days; or

(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction and is liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of 30 days.

I did say exposing themselves sexually. So we agree then. Either this was a crime, just like it would be for every other person, or it wasn’t just like it would be for every other person. Now if you have a philosophical issue with random penis sightings then you should say that. This is largely a non-issue, easily solved like Rooster has already said.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 28, 2021, 10:09:41 AM
Oh, so first you agree that it's wrong by claiming that it's illegal anyway and now your argument has made a 180, and you are suddenly in favor of little girls being exposed to in-person adult male genetalia without their parent's consent, no matter how much women and girls feel personally threatened and unsafe like the complaints in the video. ::)

Many women and girls don't feel safe or comfortable showering or changing around what appears to be nude male strangers. They don't want to be in that situation and feel that it is inappropriate for obvious reasons.

You may as well just cut to the chase and admit that your intention is to argue in favor of trannie rights no matter what loops you need to jump through.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 28, 2021, 10:41:42 AM
Oh, so first you agree that it's wrong by claiming that it's illegal anyway and now your argument has made a 180, and you are suddenly in favor of little girls being exposed to in-person adult male genetalia without their parent's consent, no matter how much women and girls feel personally threatened and unsafe like the complaints in the video. ::)

No. That’s not what I’ve said at all.

Quote
Many women and girls don't feel safe or comfortable changing around what appears to be nude male strangers. They don't want to be in that situation and feel that it is inappropriate for obvious reasons.

True, and as mentioned there are trivial solutions to implement.

Quote
You may as well just cut to the chase and admit that your intention is to argue in favor of trannie rights no matter what loops you need to jump through.

Yes, I am in favor of everyone’s civil rights. Im not the one jumping through hoops. You may want to consider your issues with projection considering you posted a video of a person yelling at a clerk and presented it as slam-dunk evidence of sexual misconduct involving two people not present on screen.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 28, 2021, 10:45:04 AM
True, and as mentioned there are trivial solutions to implement.

So until the gyms rebuild their showers and locker rooms trannies should be banned from showering and changing with women. Glad that's settled.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 28, 2021, 11:23:08 AM
True, and as mentioned there are trivial solutions to implement.


So until the gyms rebuild their showers and locker rooms trannies should be banned from showering and changing with women. Glad that's settled.

It’s amazing you can pack so much shit in to a single sentence. A deliberate epithet to
provoke an emotional response and a non-sequitur. I like that you made up my position right at the end too.

Listen, it’s obvious that trans people are really difficult for you to comprehend and because of that, your survival instincts tell you to reject them. I truly wonder if you have ever had a personal encounter with a transperson. My intuition tells me no and I think humanizing them would go a long way to silencing your inner bigot. Maybe read the Bible, paying attention to the parts where they discuss empathy and acceptance?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 28, 2021, 12:24:14 PM
Maybe read the Bible, paying attention to the parts where they discuss empathy and acceptance?
Can you point out the bit the Bible where it talks about transgenderism for me? I'm looking for maybe a parable where a transgender is protected from a Roman soldier or maybe Jesus preaches to his disciples about how if a man thinks he is a woman then he must be one. Maybe a man gets changed into a woman and gives birth to a baby and that is the first miracle of St Augustine? That kind of thing.

Take your time. Make sure it's a killer quote. The closest I have found is a story about Sodom and Gomorrah and quotes like this
Quote from: Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

I keep ending up back at stoning sexual deviants. There's nothing about enabling their delusions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Iceman on June 28, 2021, 12:42:24 PM
J-dizzle said 'love thy neighbor', not "live thy neighbor, unless you dont agree with their gender identity"

WWJD
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 28, 2021, 01:31:22 PM
J-dizzle said 'love thy neighbor', not "live thy neighbor, unless you dont agree with their gender identity"

WWJD
That's because gender identity isn't a thing. Imagining that you are a woman does not make you one.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 28, 2021, 03:14:42 PM
That's because gender identity isn't a thing. Imagining that you are a woman does not make you one.
What are your thoughts on the brain research I posted a few pages back on the thread? A brain that is structurally and functionally female in a male body doesn't sound like something that "isn't a thing" or is simply someone's imagination.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 28, 2021, 03:44:11 PM
That's because gender identity isn't a thing. Imagining that you are a woman does not make you one.
What are your thoughts on the brain research I posted a few pages back on the thread? A brain that is structurally and functionally female in a male body doesn't sound like something that "isn't a thing" or is simply someone's imagination.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/
My thoughts are that this is not scientific research and I don't trust any of it. Paid to deliver a particular conclusion or you don't get any more funding type research. And its Psychiatry. Or pontificating would be a more accurate term. Someone's best guess ... and a guess they are going to get professional accreditation for if and only if they come up with the politically correct conclusion. There is no evidence of any wrong brain in body in those results.

I don't need a compromised nose-in-trough hack to tell me how a brain works. That brain is made of cells. And those cells have xy chromosomes in them. Male DNA. And so they react and exhibit male characteristics via gene expression that is positively male. It is hardly a female brain when it is made from male DNA cells. Its just a male brain with psychiatric problems.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on June 28, 2021, 03:48:31 PM
My thoughts are that this is not scientific research and I don't trust any of it. Paid to deliver a particular conclusion or you don't get any more funding type research.
What are you basing this on?

And its Psychiatry.
Not exclusively. Do you know what an MRI is?

I don't need a compromised nose-in-trough hack to tell me how a brain works. That brain is made of cells. And those cells have xy chromosomes in them. Male DNA. And so they react and exhibit male characteristics via gene expression that is positively male. It is hardly a female brain when it is made from male DNA cells. Its just a male brain with psychiatric problems.
Do you just assume DNA is responsible for all human development? Because it isn't, not by a long shot.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on June 28, 2021, 03:55:55 PM
My thoughts are that this is not scientific research and I don't trust any of it. Paid to deliver a particular conclusion or you don't get any more funding type research.
What are you basing this on?
You know the answer to that.
He's basing it on the fact that he doesn't agree with its findings.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 28, 2021, 04:07:53 PM
Do you just assume DNA is responsible for all human development? Because it isn't, not by a long shot.
DNA determines all kinds of things like my height, how strong my beard is and it gives me a male pelvis rather than a female one. How does male DNA make a female brain? That's like mixing eggs and flour and expecting a bacon sandwich.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on June 28, 2021, 04:19:01 PM
Do you just assume DNA is responsible for all human development? Because it isn't, not by a long shot.
DNA determines all kinds of things like my height, how strong my beard is and it gives me a male pelvis rather than a female one. How does male DNA make a female brain? That's like mixing eggs and flour and expecting a bacon sandwich.
It doesn't need to, and it's not the only factor in determining your height either. Did you read what you're replying to before typing out a reply?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 28, 2021, 04:35:37 PM
Do you just assume DNA is responsible for all human development? Because it isn't, not by a long shot.
DNA determines all kinds of things like my height, how strong my beard is and it gives me a male pelvis rather than a female one. How does male DNA make a female brain? That's like mixing eggs and flour and expecting a bacon sandwich.
It doesn't need to, and it's not the only factor in determining your height either. Did you read what you're replying to before typing out a reply?
If you are claiming that there are male and female brains ... then in the same way as you get male and female pelvis' ... a female brain is never going to turn up in a male body.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on June 28, 2021, 04:36:55 PM
If you are claiming that there are male and female brains ... then in the same way as you get male and female pelvis' ... a female brain is never going to turn up in a male body.
You keep repeating that, and when asked to justify it, you either ignore the question or repeat it again. Do you not have any justification?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 28, 2021, 04:40:16 PM
Male genetics make males ... female genetics make females. To believe female bits turn up in males is ridiculous. They don't have the genetic code to make them. Human XY chromosomes aren't going to conjure a female brain any more than they will conjure a set of Bison horns.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on June 28, 2021, 04:41:17 PM
Male genetics make males ... female genetics make females. To believe female bits turn up in males is ridiculous. They don't have the genetic code to make them. XY chromosomes aren't going to conjure a female brain any more than they will conjure a set of Bison horns.
And here we go, around the circle again.
Do you just assume DNA is responsible for all human development? Because it isn't, not by a long shot.
Do you have anything to back up what you're saying, or is it just a load of hot opinions?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 28, 2021, 11:19:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URz-RYEOaig
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: honk on June 29, 2021, 02:30:21 AM
Many women and girls don't feel safe or comfortable showering or changing around what appears to be nude male strangers. They don't want to be in that situation and feel that it is inappropriate for obvious reasons.

Then they're just going to have to get over it. The discomfort of unaffected third parties is not a good reason to deny equal rights to marginalized groups, whether they're interracial couples, gays, or trans people.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 29, 2021, 03:34:22 AM
Also if we normalize seeing human bodies they wouldn't feel so uncomfortable. Modern civilization is the only thing making us feel this way.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Fortuna on June 29, 2021, 05:55:33 AM
The whole trans thing is basically like saying "I'm ugly, but I don't want to be ugly so you have to say I'm beautiful". With one of the highest suicide rates in the world, the trans community and their supporters should be advocating for therapy, not wacky shit like this. You can't treat body dysmorphia or any other mental illness by pretending to be something you're not.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 29, 2021, 07:29:44 AM
Then they're just going to have to get over it.
Why can't the tiny minority of 'trans' people get over it? For the entirety of human history, that's what has happened. Its only in the last 5 years suddenly the entire world has to change how it thinks to accommodate a few people with gender dysmorphia.

The discomfort of unaffected third parties is not a good reason to deny equal rights to marginalized groups, whether they're interracial couples, gays, or trans people.
They aren't being denied. They can still use a changing room. The one they have used their entire life up until this point. The discomfort of a tiny minority of people suffering from a mental illness is not a good reason to deny actual women the security and privacy of a single sex changing room.


Also if we normalize seeing human bodies they wouldn't feel so uncomfortable. Modern civilization is the only thing making us feel this way.
People have been wearing clothes since Adam got caught ogling Eve. There is nothing modern about modesty. It is only the batshit liberal upsidedown thinking horseshit of the last decade or so, that suddenly makes standing up for every minority group no matter what the ridiculous demands, in vogue.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 29, 2021, 09:17:56 AM
With one of the highest suicide rates in the world, the trans community and their supporters should be advocating for therapy, not wacky shit like this.
Thing is, we've tried and tried again, and therapy just doesn't seem to work. Hormone therapy and surgery reduces the suicide rates (yes, they're still very high), and for some people it helps them get on with everyday life.

Clearly we need a ton more research before we have a good idea of how to best help these people, but, in the meantime, it makes at least some sense to pursue the path that has so far been the most effective at reducing human suffering. If the biggest point against it is that some people find it wacky and gross, then IMHO we should be telling those people to get over themselves.

This is not to say that this approach doesn't create any problems. The OP is a decent example, but I think it would be disingenuous to oppose people transitioning as a whole because of it.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 29, 2021, 09:50:53 AM
Clearly we need a ton more research before we have a good idea of how to best help these people, but, in the meantime, it makes at least some sense to pursue the path that has so far been the most effective at reducing human suffering.
So the most effective path to the least suffering is to let men compete in women's sporting events?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 29, 2021, 09:52:53 AM
So the most effective path to the least suffering is to let men compete in women's sporting events?
I refer you to the last sentence of my previous post.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 29, 2021, 11:38:10 AM
Clearly we need a ton more research before we have a good idea of how to best help these people, but, in the meantime, it makes at least some sense to pursue the path that has so far been the most effective at reducing human suffering.
So the most effective path to the least suffering is to let men compete in women's sporting events?

It also looks like the most effective way to reduce suicide rates amongst trans people is for them to be accepted in their social groups.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on June 29, 2021, 11:42:02 AM
The whole trans thing is basically like saying "I'm ugly, but I don't want to be ugly so you have to say I'm beautiful". With one of the highest suicide rates in the world, the trans community and their supporters should be advocating for therapy, not wacky shit like this. You can't treat body dysmorphia or any other mental illness by pretending to be something you're not.

Sounds like good advice for those who are pretending, but as has been presented here, there is evidence showing this is not an act of will, but rather tied to specific brain structures.  So a criticism of trans rights should keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 29, 2021, 03:11:12 PM
Also if we normalize seeing human bodies they wouldn't feel so uncomfortable. Modern civilization is the only thing making us feel this way.
People have been wearing clothes since Adam got caught ogling Eve.
I see we have a historian over here who really knows what he's talking about. I didn't say people weren't wearing clothing, but yes our level of expected privacy and modesty is relatively modern.

Hunter - gatherers still exist who wear very little clothing or none at all depending on what they're doing and the time of year.

Then they're just going to have to get over it.
Why can't the tiny minority of 'trans' people get over it? For the entirety of human history, that's what has happened. Its only in the last 5 years suddenly the entire world has to change how it thinks to accommodate a few people with gender dysmorphia.
Again with the false historian angle. There is historic evidence of people living as a different gender than what they were born with. Just because you didn't hear about something over the internet doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

The discomfort of unaffected third parties is not a good reason to deny equal rights to marginalized groups, whether they're interracial couples, gays, or trans people.
They aren't being denied. They can still use a changing room. The one they have used their entire life up until this point. The discomfort of a tiny minority of people suffering from a mental illness is not a good reason to deny actual women the security and privacy of a single sex changing room.
I'd argue there is no sense of security or privacy in one large, open, changing room even with one sex. I remember there was a viral video a few years back that a younger woman took of an older, larger woman to shame her. Most changing rooms have stalls and/or showers. No one is forced to be naked in front of each other.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 29, 2021, 03:21:30 PM
With one of the highest suicide rates in the world, the trans community and their supporters should be advocating for therapy, not wacky shit like this.
Thing is, we've tried and tried again, and therapy just doesn't seem to work. Hormone therapy and surgery reduces the suicide rates (yes, they're still very high), and for some people it helps them get on with everyday life.

Clearly we need a ton more research before we have a good idea of how to best help these people, but, in the meantime, it makes at least some sense to pursue the path that has so far been the most effective at reducing human suffering. If the biggest point against it is that some people find it wacky and gross, then IMHO we should be telling those people to get over themselves.

This is not to say that this approach doesn't create any problems. The OP is a decent example, but I think it would be disingenuous to oppose people transitioning as a whole because of it.
Exactly this. I think I posted an article earlier about talk therapy not helping very much and sometimes making things worse, but I can't be bothered to find it.

I'm surprised Fortuna would think therapy hasn't been tried or advocated for? It does seem like the major disconnect is people not realizing the struggle or treatment options that trans people go through. A general lack of education and empathy on the topic and even a refusal to learn enough about it because they are adamant they somehow know best and that trans people are wacky.

We could probably find workable solutions in most circumstances if people didn't have knee-jerk reactions. And I do mean that on both sides, I have seen some unreasonable things come from the left about it.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 29, 2021, 03:36:51 PM
I see we have a historian over here who really knows what he's talking about. I didn't say people weren't wearing clothing, but yes our level of expected privacy and modesty is relatively modern.
No it isn't. When I give you an example ... eg Adam and Eve ... a 1600 year old text called the bible that shows walking around naked is not a thing, "Nah-ah" isn't a worthy rebuttal. From the same source, Noah and his son Ham. Ham is disgraced in the bible because he sees his father naked. He also castrates his father and bums him, but for reasons I can't really figure out, seeing him naked is worse. Anyhoooooo exposing yourself has been a no no all around the world for millennia. You can keep saying no ... with zero sources but I'm ignoring your protestations unless backed with a source from now on.

Hunter - gatherers still exist who wear very little clothing or none at all depending on what they're doing and the time of year.
They are not civilised people. They are little more than animals. I'm not sure we should revert to being uncivilised to accommodate the 'trans community'.

Again with the false historian angle. There is historic evidence of people living as a different gender than what they were born with. Just because you didn't hear about something over the internet doesn't mean it wasn't happening.
You don't run a society for the needs and wants of a tiny minority of people with mental problems. 🙄

I'd argue there is no sense of security or privacy in one large, open, changing room even with one sex. I remember there was a viral video a few years back that a younger woman took of an older, larger woman to shame her. Most changing rooms have stalls and/or showers. No one is forced to be naked in front of each other.
For almost all of time in every civilised country on earth we have decided to segregate changing facilities ... largely to make women feel comfortable. Now because you feel there are victims who need protecting, you want to throw that out of the window. Can you see why liberals are viewed as such a joke by everyone else?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 29, 2021, 04:06:59 PM
No it isn't. When I give you an example ... eg Adam and Eve ... a 1600 year old text called the bible that shows walking around naked is not a thing, "Nah-ah" isn't a worthy rebuttal. From the same source, Noah and his son Ham. Ham is disgraced in the bible because he sees his father naked. He also castrates his father and bums him, but for reasons I can't really figure out, seeing him naked is worse. Anyhoooooo exposing yourself has been a no no all around the world for millennia. You can keep saying no ... with zero sources but I'm ignoring your protestations unless backed with a source from now on.
Adam and Eve are not real.

And if you want sources, well it depends on the culture. But the argument wasn't about clothing, it was about how often people saw naked bodies and the lack of hyper sexualization. You quoting the source of equating nakedness with shame and sin is not going unnoticed and a 1600 year old text is relatively modern by human standards.

But you can start here if you're interested. I think you'd like China, you have a similar mind with their culture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nudity


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They are not civilised people. They are little more than animals. I'm not sure we should revert to being uncivilised to accommodate the 'trans community'.
We are animals.

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You don't run a society for the needs and wants of a tiny minority of people with mental problems. 🙄
We should find the solution for people to live healthy and satisfying lives, unless you want to go back to locking people away in asylums.

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For almost all of time in every civilised country on earth we have decided to segregate changing facilities ... largely to make women feel comfortable. Now because you feel there are victims who need protecting, you want to throw that out of the window. Can you see why liberals are viewed as such a joke by everyone else?
I feel like you keep missing the part where most people change in stalls or behind shower curtains, but you think that's unreasonable or a joke? Should people be naked in front of strangers or not, I'm getting mixed signals from you. Also, I'm not a liberal.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 29, 2021, 09:13:01 PM
Adam and Eve are not real.
*Sigh*
Yes, but the bible is real and the bible was instructing people to wear clothes. An example is the made up story of Adam and Eve which served as a lesson about wearing clothes.

And if you want sources, well it depends on the culture. But the argument wasn't about clothing, it was about how often people saw naked bodies and the lack of hyper sexualization. You quoting the source of equating nakedness with shame and sin is not going unnoticed and a 1600 year old text is relatively modern by human standards.
I'm not on board with going in back in time more than 1600 years (probably closer to 5000 years) just so that a few people with gender dysmorphia can change in the wrong changing rooms.

But you can start here if you're interested. I think you'd like China, you have a similar mind with their culture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nudity
Yes ... the Chinese had this thing called a civilisation. Civilised people wear clothes and do not expose themselves to strangers. Now ... imagine people who are civilised saying "erm, don't want to see a stranger's knob in a ladies changing room". This is something you could expect from any civilised person since before records began. Clothes predate the pen.

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They are not civilised people. They are little more than animals. I'm not sure we should revert to being uncivilised to accommodate the 'trans community'.
We are animals.
Liberals are, sure. The rest of us wear clothes and walk on our hind legs.

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You don't run a society for the needs and wants of a tiny minority of people with mental problems. 🙄
We should find the solution for people to live healthy and satisfying lives, unless you want to go back to locking people away in asylums.
Do you know why people wear clothes?
Women. Men aren't that bothered. But women were all like "Bit tired of being raped. Is there any chance you men could come up with a solution to this? We're going to complain unbearably about this until you find a solution." Well, the men got seriously sick of all the whining and so they devised a plan. They called it weaving. They showed the women how to do it and said "Ok, this is your job now. Make something pretty and cover yourself up. You look like a whore". The grateful ladies all got to work and made beautiful robes and tunics and woolly socks. And the clothes were magic. Suddenly it became really hard to just shove your knob into a woman who was standing nearby. The fabric not only created an impenetrable barrier, but it also hid the target from view making men completely forget they were stood next to a juicy pussy. This proved very very effective. Rape ceased to be an every day occurrence and clothes became the law in every country that ever invented laws. So ... should we bring back some serious rape culture (not the kind liberals complain about on college campuses but like club to the back of head rape culture) oooorrrrr shall we keep peepees and foofoos apart in public places and only allow a union in the privacy of a consensual arrangement?

I feel like you keep missing the part where most people change in stalls or behind shower curtains, but you think that's unreasonable or a joke? Should people be naked in front of strangers or not, I'm getting mixed signals from you. Also, I'm not a liberal.
People should not expose themselves to members of the opposite sex. See my story above on the history of clothes. Most women don't like not having the impenetrable barrier between their lady bits and some strange guy's junk. It makes them understandably edgy. The cave lady part of their brain instantly understands the gravity of the situation, dumps a huge wodge of adrenaline into said woman's blood and this manifests itself as panic. Fight or flight. Flight is rushing out of the change room as fast as possible and then complaining to men about the impenetrable barrier not being there. Fight is losing their shit and screaming at the pervert changing with the ladies. And if you think we should pander to the trans community ... you're a liberal.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on June 29, 2021, 09:39:16 PM
Still spiraling into absolute chaos and fantasy on a regular basis, huh?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: honk on June 30, 2021, 03:59:02 AM
Why can't the tiny minority of 'trans' people get over it? For the entirety of human history, that's what has happened. Its only in the last 5 years suddenly the entire world has to change how it thinks to accommodate a few people with gender dysmorphia.

An injustice being widely practiced in the past is not a good reason to continue practicing it now.

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They aren't being denied. They can still use a changing room. The one they have used their entire life up until this point. The discomfort of a tiny minority of people suffering from a mental illness is not a good reason to deny actual women the security and privacy of a single sex changing room.

They're being denied the right to live as the gender they identify with. Regardless of whether or not you want to call it a mental illness, it's a very real phenomenon that affects millions of people. And I don't believe that there's any risk to "security and privacy" from women accidentally catching a glimpse of male genitals. If you're making a new argument about predatory transwomen seeking access to women-only spaces for nefarious reasons, you're going to need to back that up with something other than your own intuition, because all evidence suggests that it quite simply doesn't happen.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on June 30, 2021, 07:08:15 AM
They're being denied the right to live as the gender they identify with.
And they were denied that by God. It's the way they were made. Not cruel men subjecting them to it. Letting a donkey live in a paddock with a bunch of racehorses, doesn't make it a racehorse. I don't care how the donkey identifies. It isn't going to win the 15:15 at Chepstow.

Also ... why is living the gender you identify as, suddenly an inalienable right? Sounds pretty entitled to me. Especially as you impose yourself on everyone else, policing their speech and invading their changing rooms just so you can maintain a fantasy in your head.


Regardless of whether or not you want to call it a mental illness, it's a very real phenomenon that affects millions of people. And I don't believe that there's any risk to "security and privacy" from women accidentally catching a glimpse of male genitals. If you're making a new argument about predatory transwomen seeking access to women-only spaces for nefarious reasons, you're going to need to back that up with something other than your own intuition, because all evidence suggests that it quite simply doesn't happen.
Women are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 01, 2021, 03:44:02 PM
Regardless of whether or not you want to call it a mental illness, it's a very real phenomenon that affects millions of people. And I don't believe that there's any risk to "security and privacy" from women accidentally catching a glimpse of male genitals. If you're making a new argument about predatory transwomen seeking access to women-only spaces for nefarious reasons, you're going to need to back that up with something other than your own intuition, because all evidence suggests that it quite simply doesn't happen.
Women are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?

The future is now.......https://matadornetwork.com/read/transparent-outdoor-toilets-tokyo/
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Fortuna on July 01, 2021, 08:32:06 PM
Regardless of whether or not you want to call it a mental illness, it's a very real phenomenon that affects millions of people. And I don't believe that there's any risk to "security and privacy" from women accidentally catching a glimpse of male genitals. If you're making a new argument about predatory transwomen seeking access to women-only spaces for nefarious reasons, you're going to need to back that up with something other than your own intuition, because all evidence suggests that it quite simply doesn't happen.
Women are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?

The future is now.......https://matadornetwork.com/read/transparent-outdoor-toilets-tokyo/

Not quite yet, unfortunately.

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Once the door is locked, the glass outer walls turn opaque, so no one can see through
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: honk on July 02, 2021, 02:46:34 AM
And they were denied that by God. It's the way they were made. Not cruel men subjecting them to it.

There's nothing we can do about the way they were made, but we can do something about their continued treatment by society.

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Also ... why is living the gender you identify as, suddenly an inalienable right?

Because being forced to live as the gender you don't identify as is an extremely traumatic and confusing way to go through life. It's easy for most people to take it for granted that the way you walk, talk, dress, socialize, etc. is exactly how society expects you to do it, but what if it wasn't? Imagine - and please don't dodge this by talking about how it can't happen or shouldn't happen or if it did then it would be everyone else's problem and not yours - that tomorrow everyone started treating you like a woman. You'd be expected to dress like a woman, talk like a woman, be romantically interested in men, etc., and you'd get funny looks and be treated like a weirdo when you instead engaged in your usual male behaviors. Wouldn't that fuck you up? Nobody should have to deal with that.

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Sounds pretty entitled to me. Especially as you impose yourself on everyone else, policing their speech

You are not being oppressed by having to refer to people by the name they want and as the gender they want. It's just basic courtesy, something that you're already very familiar with through life in modern society.

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invading their changing rooms just so you can maintain a fantasy in your head...[women] are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?

The comfort of the trans community is about whether or not they're allowed to live their life as a member of the gender they identify with, something of life-altering consequences to them. The comfort of the complaining women is apparently based on a) paranoid fears of predators waiting to be allowed access to women's spaces so they can victimize the women within, which doesn't even make any logical sense to begin with, and b) absurdly prudish fears of accidentally catching a glimpse of a transwoman's genitals. That's why the trans community's comfort trumps the complainers' comfort - because they have a sound reason to be allowed into women's spaces, while the complainers have nonsensical reasons to not allow them there.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 02, 2021, 07:59:40 AM
There's nothing we can do about the way they were made, but we can do something about their continued treatment by society.
Agreed. They should be treated like patients. Given therapy. You don't give an anorexic a diet. You shouldn't give a gender dysmorphia sufferer hormones and a prosthetic vagina.

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Also ... why is living the gender you identify as, suddenly an inalienable right?

Because being forced to live as the gender you don't identify as is an extremely traumatic and confusing way to go through life.
And the way to unconfuse them is to agree with their conclusion that they are the sex that they are not? That's not helping with the confusion.

It's easy for most people to take it for granted that the way you walk, talk, dress, socialize, etc. is exactly how society expects you to do it, but what if it wasn't? Imagine - and please don't dodge this by talking about how it can't happen or shouldn't happen or if it did then it would be everyone else's problem and not yours - that tomorrow everyone started treating you like a woman. You'd be expected to dress like a woman,
Wouldn't care because all the other men are wearing dresses too. That's the norm. A dress would be considered men's clothing. That is a silly argument. For most of history men wore tunics ... little dresses with a rope around the waist.

talk like a woman,
If you are a man, you already have a mans' voice. Even if you are Joe Pasquale, life goes on just fine.

be romantically interested in men, etc.,
You can be gay. No one is stopping you from being gay. These days, its actually encouraged. Celebrated. You are told how brave you are, and in many industries, promoted to jobs you have no business doing.

and you'd get funny looks and be treated like a weirdo when you instead engaged in your usual male behaviours. Wouldn't that fuck you up? Nobody should have to deal with that.
??? Behaviours are learned. I have a friend acquaintance who was straight. For 30 something years he was a very normal guy. Within 12 months of deciding to be gay, he became a flaming homosexual. He's got the nasally gay voice, the limp wrist, he minces when he walks and he now jumps up and down clapping his hands when he is excited ... its revolting. But no one is stopping him. Like all gays, he obviously forces this behaviour. Its possible to just act like a guy.
There are two big fat lesbians who live a few doors down from me who live just like guys. Shaved heads, tattoos, jeans showing their butt cracks and when I walk past on the way to the shop or something, if they are mowing the lawn they will say "alright mate?". Not a very female way to address someone. They get a "fine thanks" rather than the customary tip of the hat and a "great to be alive, ladies". Anyhoo, they learned how to scratch their arses and swear like sailors. They could have chosen to be feminine dykes. They didn't. 

You are not being oppressed by having to refer to people by the name they want and as the gender they want. It's just basic courtesy, something that you're already very familiar with through life in modern society.
Of course it is oppression.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/christian-doctor-trans-woman-sacked-gender-pronouns-universal-credit-a8999176.html
That is oppression. "Hey doctor, I know you have decades of medical experience but I'm a woman and you are wrong. Don't agree? Welp, let's take your livelihood from you". It is absolutely oppression. Think like me or be punished is oppression, Honk. 
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/virginia-teacher-says-wrongfully-fired-student-wrong-pronouns-trnd/index.html

The comfort of the trans community is about whether or not they're allowed to live their life as a member of the gender they identify with, something of life-altering consequences to them. The comfort of the complaining women is apparently based on a) paranoid fears of predators waiting to be allowed access to women's spaces so they can victimize the women within, which doesn't even make any logical sense to begin with, and b) absurdly prudish fears of accidentally catching a glimpse of a transwoman's genitals. That's why the trans community's comfort trumps the complainers' comfort - because they have a sound reason to be allowed into women's spaces, while the complainers have nonsensical reasons to not allow them there.
So women having 'irrational fears' of naked men around them when they are changing is bad, but men having irrational beliefs that they are women needs to be upheld. You are all kinds of fucked up.

And they are not a community. There is no village of transgenders. They are patients who are being failed by modern day pseudoscience that they are born in the wrong body. They aren't. They are born in their own body ... but they have mental problems.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on July 02, 2021, 11:16:39 AM
And they were denied that by God. It's the way they were made. Not cruel men subjecting them to it.

There's nothing we can do about the way they were made, but we can do something about their continued treatment by society.

Quote
Also ... why is living the gender you identify as, suddenly an inalienable right?

Because being forced to live as the gender you don't identify as is an extremely traumatic and confusing way to go through life. It's easy for most people to take it for granted that the way you walk, talk, dress, socialize, etc. is exactly how society expects you to do it, but what if it wasn't? Imagine - and please don't dodge this by talking about how it can't happen or shouldn't happen or if it did then it would be everyone else's problem and not yours - that tomorrow everyone started treating you like a woman. You'd be expected to dress like a woman, talk like a woman, be romantically interested in men, etc., and you'd get funny looks and be treated like a weirdo when you instead engaged in your usual male behaviors. Wouldn't that fuck you up? Nobody should have to deal with that.

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Sounds pretty entitled to me. Especially as you impose yourself on everyone else, policing their speech

You are not being oppressed by having to refer to people by the name they want and as the gender they want. It's just basic courtesy, something that you're already very familiar with through life in modern society.

Quote
invading their changing rooms just so you can maintain a fantasy in your head...[women] are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?

The comfort of the trans community is about whether or not they're allowed to live their life as a member of the gender they identify with, something of life-altering consequences to them. The comfort of the complaining women is apparently based on a) paranoid fears of predators waiting to be allowed access to women's spaces so they can victimize the women within, which doesn't even make any logical sense to begin with, and b) absurdly prudish fears of accidentally catching a glimpse of a transwoman's genitals. That's why the trans community's comfort trumps the complainers' comfort - because they have a sound reason to be allowed into women's spaces, while the complainers have nonsensical reasons to not allow them there.
I think the marvelously talented and sharp transgendered people should team up, form their own businesses and bathroom stalls specifically marked TRANSGENDER ONLY.

Funny, years of working toward eliminating issues of sex and gender from government and corporate employment through legislation, now to only have it become something we absolutely need to focus on in order to get along.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on July 02, 2021, 02:02:55 PM
Transgenderism fundamentally doesn't make sense. A man who looks a lot like a woman and dresses like one is called a trap and traps are gay.

A man is a male human.

A woman is a female human.

People who are neither male or female are not man or woman. The transgenderism movement is just elites finding out how much they can gaslight modern society.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 02, 2021, 02:47:56 PM
Hot takes have landed.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: garygreen on July 02, 2021, 02:52:18 PM
Hot takes have landed.

i can't wait until all the "omg but you have to do what your genes say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111222222223333333" people find out about eyeglasses.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 02, 2021, 03:23:57 PM
Hot takes have landed.

i can't wait until all the "omg but you have to do what your genes say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111222222223333333" people find out about eyeglasses.

Is that really equivalent?!
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: garygreen on July 02, 2021, 03:37:32 PM
if you're a genetic essentialist, i don't see how it's deniable. how is "your genes say you are a boy so you have to be a boy" qualitatively different than "your genes say you are nearsighted so you have to be nearsighted."

our genes encode many things that humans choose to resist/alter/deny/compensate for/whatever. you're welcome to draw an arbitrary line in the sand about which encodings you think are acceptable to resist, i guess. have at it.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on July 02, 2021, 03:40:05 PM
Hot takes have landed.

i can't wait until all the "omg but you have to do what your genes say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111222222223333333" people find out about eyeglasses.

if you're a genetic essentialist, i don't see how it's deniable.

You're going to have to go into more detail about this, since it's not immediately apparent what your point is. I presume this is intentional and definitely a passive aggressive form of dodging the debate entirely; something that's quite endemic to the transgender movement in general.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 02, 2021, 03:41:33 PM
I think a large part of the confusion — willing as it may be on the part of some — arises from the fact that "male" and "female" are terms used to describe both sex and gender. So, let's refer to gender as "blue" and "orange" instead, and see what difference that makes.

There is a correlation between being male and being blue, just as males tend to be taller and stronger than women. But as in all things, there are exceptions. Some men are orange, and some women are blue, because your blueness/orangeness is not defined by your sex. Having a Y chromosome doesn't make you blue, and lacking one doesn't make you orange.

The problem arises when there is a social expectation for all men to be blue, and all women to be orange. This is so deeply ingrained into our society that we have begun to refer to blueness as "masculinity" and orangeness as "femininity", and we tell anyone who diverges from this arbitrary rule that they are wrong about themselves.

Can you understand why blue women might be unhappy about being forced to act orange all the time?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on July 02, 2021, 03:43:13 PM
I think a large part of the confusion — willing as it may be on the part of some — arises from the fact that "male" and "female" are terms used to describe both sex and gender. So, let's refer to gender "blue" and "orange" instead, and see what difference that makes.

There is a correlation between being male and being blue, just as males tend to be taller and stronger than women. But as in all things, there are exceptions. Some men are orange, and some women are blue, because your blueness/orangeness is not defined by your sex. Having a Y chromosome doesn't make you blue, and lacking one doesn't make you orange.

The problem arises when there is a social expectation for all males to be blue, and all women to be orange. This is so deeply ingrained into our society that we have begun to refer to blueness as "masculinity" and orangeness as "femininity", and we tell anyone who diverges from this arbitrary rule that they are wrong about themselves.

Can you understand why blue women might be unhappy about being forced to act orange all the time?

Blue women aren't forced to act orange all the time. We already have terms for women that take up traditional masculine roles: tomboys. We don't literally refer to them as men, because they aren't. "man" and "woman" are not gender roles. If anything, the transgenderism movement is a toxic reinforcement of gender roles, not a denial of them.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 02, 2021, 03:52:20 PM
Blue women aren't forced to act orange all the time. We already have terms for women that take up traditional masculine roles: tomboys. We don't literally refer to them as men, because they aren't. "man" and "woman" are not gender roles.
Not quite. A "tomboy" will still be told that they can't be with men in gender-segregated facilities, and people will usually insist on using the pronoun "she". Although they may be accepted by their friends, there is constant reinforcement everywhere they go that their identity is wrong, or at the very least abnormal. Are you capable of placing yourself in someone else's position for a moment and trying to imagine what this would be like?

If anything, the transgenderism movement is a toxic reinforcement of gender roles, not a denial of them.
I agree, to an extent — I think the correct solution is to simply let everyone be however they want, with no arbitrary expecations based on their genitals. But we live in an imperfect world, and transgenderism is an imperfect solution that makes people happier in the world.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rushy on July 02, 2021, 04:00:05 PM
Not quite. A "tomboy" will still be told that they can't be with men in gender-segregated facilities

That's because she is not a man.

, and people will usually insist on using the pronoun "she".

Because she isn't a man. The pronoun "she" does not refer to a role, it refers to an object (a female human). We're not at the point technologically where people switch their genetics around to other sexes.

Although they may be accepted by their friends, there is constant reinforcement everywhere they go that their identity is wrong, or at the very least abnormal. Are you capable of placing yourself in someone else's position for a moment and trying to imagine what this would be like?

You can't identify as something else and expect others to bend reality around you. This is back to the old "I'm an attack helicopter!" meme. You're no longer talking about gender roles, rendering your original point moot.

I agree, to an extent — I think the correct solution is to simply let everyone be however they want, with no arbitrary expecations based on their genitals. But we live in an imperfect world, and transgenderism is an imperfect solution that makes people happier in the world.

If the argument is that gender roles shouldn't exist, then the transgender movement is going the wrong way to attack it. The problem is that I believe you are confused, the transgender movement is not an inherent problem with gender roles, it's a problem with biological ones. That's why they're attacking the words "man" and "woman". Not the roles they represent.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 02, 2021, 04:13:08 PM
That's because she is not a man.
Well, yes and no. This is the problem we have created for ourselves by making "man" refer to both sex and gender. Insisting that we don't have that problem won't make it go away.

Because she isn't a man. The pronoun "she" does not refer to a role, it refers to an object (a female human).
This is a common misconception among monolinguals who assume that the English language developed the way they think about it. A millennium ago, a dog would have been "he" and a mouse would have been "she", because those are the genders of the nouns "hound" and "mouse". Our pronoun system is not based on biological sex, it is a relic of a time when we assigned arbitrary genders to everything. Now we only assign arbitrary genders to humans, and people are beginning to confuse that with an inherent trait.

Languages without grammatical gender, and which never had it, usually do not have separate pronouns for "he" and "she". This is not a fundamental distinction we need to make, it is a feature of the language you happen to speak.

You can't identify as something else and expect others to bend reality around you. This is back to the old "I'm an attack helicopter!" meme. You're no longer talking about gender roles, rendering your original point moot.
I am talking about gender roles. Most gender segregation in modern society is based on gender, not biological sex. But there are exceptions, which is what the topic of this thread should be. I am trying to get us past the "transgenderism literally doesn't exist" diversion so we can talk about the actual topic.

If the argument is that gender roles shouldn't exist, then the transgender movement is going the wrong way to attack it.
And making millions of people happier in the process. Are you going to put ideological purity over people leading happy, fulfilling lives?

The problem is that I believe you are confused, the transgender movement is not an inherent problem with gender roles, it's a problem with biological ones. That's why they're attacking the words "man" and "woman". Not the roles they represent.
"They're attacking the words, not what we mean by them" is a new level of doublethink, even for you.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Fortuna on July 02, 2021, 05:58:55 PM
Hot takes have landed.

The idea of conforming to your born sex, which has been the norm since human civilization started, is now considered a 'hot take' by the pseuds.

Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 02, 2021, 07:14:50 PM
Hot takes have landed.

The idea of conforming to your born sex, which has been the norm since human civilization started, is now considered a 'hot take' by the pseuds.

If that was what I meant, your comment would be relevant.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 04, 2021, 01:25:25 AM
"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 04, 2021, 08:01:08 AM
"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels

I agree. Testosterone levels is a stupid way to determine sex. Chromosome tests please.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Gayer on July 04, 2021, 09:15:03 AM
"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels

If they're been disqualified under the same rules that Caster Semenya falls under then technically they're not female, those rules only apply to people with male DSDs (intersex) that were mistakingly assigned female at birth, the naturally high testosterone levels will be due to internal testes. If doping via steroids isn't allowed, it shouldn't be allowed via testes either. Doping is doping.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 04, 2021, 12:41:51 PM
"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels

If they're been disqualified under the same rules that Caster Semenya falls under then technically they're not female, those rules only apply to people with male DSDs (intersex) that were mistakingly assigned female at birth, the naturally high testosterone levels will be due to internal testes. If doping via steroids isn't allowed, it shouldn't be allowed via testes either. Doping is doping.

Doling via steroids is illegal because you are adding exogenous substances to your body which are explicitly designed to quickly stimulate athletic performance. At what point does your natural genetic advantage become “doping”?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Gayer on July 04, 2021, 01:20:59 PM
"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels

If they're been disqualified under the same rules that Caster Semenya falls under then technically they're not female, those rules only apply to people with male DSDs (intersex) that were mistakingly assigned female at birth, the naturally high testosterone levels will be due to internal testes. If doping via steroids isn't allowed, it shouldn't be allowed via testes either. Doping is doping.

Doling via steroids is illegal because you are adding exogenous substances to your body which are explicitly designed to quickly stimulate athletic performance. At what point does your natural genetic advantage become “doping”?

When its male level in a female contest, of course, because that makes it an unfair advantage rather than just an advantage. Intersex athletes are sought out because of the natural doping, but now that's being cracked down on. Its harsh on the athletes themselves, but all competitors have to be taken into account.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 04, 2021, 01:31:55 PM
“Male level” isn’t really a thing. There is lots of crossover and a measurement of testosterone in isolation isn’t a good predictor of athletic performance. There are professional male athletes that have lower than average levels of testosterone, for example.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: honk on July 04, 2021, 04:38:51 PM
Of course it is oppression.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/christian-doctor-trans-woman-sacked-gender-pronouns-universal-credit-a8999176.html
That is oppression. "Hey doctor, I know you have decades of medical experience but I'm a woman and you are wrong. Don't agree? Welp, let's take your livelihood from you". It is absolutely oppression. Think like me or be punished is oppression, Honk. 
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/virginia-teacher-says-wrongfully-fired-student-wrong-pronouns-trnd/index.html

Having a different opinion is not an excuse to deliberately be unpleasant to others in a professional environment. That's what these people were fired for - not for having the wrong opinion, and not for simply disagreeing with the concept of transgenderism to begin with - but for refusing to use the preferred pronouns of people they came into contact with. It's no different to having policies against bullying, harassment, or anti-social behavior in general. You have to treat people with respect at work, no matter what opinions you have of them.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 04, 2021, 05:07:43 PM
It's not male level, the level they're disqualifying them at is much lower then biological male testosterone levels.

“Never mind that the performance differential between the so-called “differences in sexual development” (DSD) or “high-testosterone” athlete is less than 3 per cent in running events, according to the IAAF’s own research–meaning that the difference is almost irrelevant.

The IAAF would determine that Ms. Semenya has “unusually” high testosterone levels–which, it should be said, are well below the lowest threshold of a biological male–and ruled that she must chemically alter her body to continue competing, as part of broader regulations around female athletes with naturally high testosterone levels.

https://runningmagazine.ca/the-scene/800m-silver-medallist-niyonsaba-goes-public-about-her-hyperandrogenism/

And I couldn't find anything about people with DSD or hyperandrogenism being incorrectly labelled female or necessarily having testes. In fact, it's thought to be common the female elite athletes have higher naturally occurring testosterone.

And if this is okay, why aren't we disqualifying people like Michael Phelps when he naturally makes half the lactic acid other athletes do so doesn't feel normal fatigue? That also seems like an unfair advantage.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Gayer on July 04, 2021, 06:29:09 PM
There's no crossover in testosterone - the lower male levels are still 4-5 times higher than female levels so no crossover. Of course testosterone alone isn't a good indicator but testosterone plus other differences the male body has to the female body make a big difference.

The limit they are set at is still more than twice the highest normal female level, so more than fair to athletes with DSDs. "The regulations will be restricted to women with DSD having normal androgen receptor function and not to athletes with any type of hyperandrogenism. Only women with DSD, adrenal or ovarian tumors, or doped athletes can have circulating testosterone in the male range"* Its not mere hyperandrogenism, like PCOS (which is overrepresented in female athletes, like you said) but those with such high levels of testosterone that they either have testes, or a tumour (and tumour is probably quite unlikely as I doubt they'd be in sporting condition with tumours). And the difference isn't 3%, its more than 9% which is a big difference in elite sports.

We don't disqualify Phelps for making less lactic acid because that does not have a big impact - sex is the biggest difference in athletic ability, that's why they separate males and females. We all know that, you can see the difference in children as young as 6 if you go to a school sports day, and once puberty hits that difference becomes unfair.

*Source: https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/104/2/503/5114458
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 04, 2021, 06:50:12 PM
If the IAAF says they can compete in middle distance running if they take something like hormonal contraceptives to lower their testosterone to <5 nmol/L then do you think it's fair to extend those same rules to transwomen?

And I would disagree about Michael Phelps's genetic advantage not having a big impact. He's won the most gold medals ever.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Gayer on July 04, 2021, 07:54:51 PM
If the IAAF says they can compete in middle distance running if they take something like hormonal contraceptives to lower their testosterone to <5 nmol/L then do you think it's fair to extend those same rules to transwomen?

And I would disagree about Michael Phelps's genetic advantage not having a big impact. He's won the most gold medals ever.

Well frankly no, I don't think its fair for any males to compete in female sports, no matter what their testosterone levels are, though its more of a grey area with athletes with DSDs. But certainly anyone who has gone through normal male puberty should not be allowed to compete against women, its blatantly unfair and everyone knows it but just pretends not to because they think inclusion matters more. Inclusion is important, but in sports fairness and safety should come first.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 04, 2021, 08:12:19 PM
What if they haven't gone through male puberty?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Gayer on July 05, 2021, 06:10:09 AM
Then that's entirely different, if they haven't gone through male puberty then they won't have the massive advantage so no need to exclude them in my opinion.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 05, 2021, 07:28:40 AM
Then that's entirely different, if they haven't gone through male puberty then they won't have the massive advantage so no need to exclude them in my opinion.
Except they might be 7 feet tall ... unless you carefully controlled their hormones with drugs ... in which case its not them ... its your drugs that made them like that.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Gayer on July 05, 2021, 03:22:18 PM
Then that's entirely different, if they haven't gone through male puberty then they won't have the massive advantage so no need to exclude them in my opinion.
Except they might be 7 feet tall ... unless you carefully controlled their hormones with drugs ... in which case its not them ... its your drugs that made them like that.

Its a pretty self-limiting issue as if they've been on puberty blockers for a few years to avoid male puberty then the health impact of blockers will probably limit athletic hopes judging by the health issues that women who were on them for precocious puberty have suffered. Its really not a good option for them.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: scomato on July 06, 2021, 04:30:23 AM
Steroids giving players an unfair advantage is apparently not ok - but a child being trained from birth full-time by a professional coach because parents are rich - no problem!
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Gayer on July 06, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
You can't control for every aspect that gives advantage or disadvantage, so just the main aspects are controlled for - sex, age, and in some sports weight.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 06, 2021, 07:58:32 AM
You can't control for every aspect that gives advantage or disadvantage, so just the main aspects are controlled for - sex, age, and in some sports weight.
I've always thought height should be one. Basketball is the most stupid sport on earth. It is all about height.

Quote from: https://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamond/2013/06/27/nba-draft-is-being-7-feet-tall-the-fastest-way-to-get-rich-in-america/?sh=51807a9b6522
Drawing on Centers for Disease Control data, Sports Illustrated's Pablo Torre estimated that no more than 70 American men are between the ages of 20 and 40 and at least 7 feet tall. "While the probability of, say, an American between 6'6" and 6'8" being an NBA player today stands at a mere 0.07%, it's a staggering 17% for someone 7 feet or taller,

Let that sink in. 17% of men of playing age over 7 feet tall end up in the NBA. That's not about skill or sporting prowess. It is just about height. It makes it the most exclusive and uninteresting sport on earth. Those men aren't the most skilful. They're just tall. Surely basketball should have height divisions ... and if it was competitive and not franchised ... it probably would.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 07, 2021, 09:57:48 PM
My intuition tells me no and I think humanizing them would go a long way to silencing your inner bigot. Maybe read the Bible, paying attention to the parts where they discuss empathy and acceptance?

I've read it.

https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-5.htm

Deuteronomy 22:5 - "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."

https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/23-1.htm

Deuteronomy 23:1 - "No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord."

https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: stack on July 08, 2021, 02:10:22 AM
My intuition tells me no and I think humanizing them would go a long way to silencing your inner bigot. Maybe read the Bible, paying attention to the parts where they discuss empathy and acceptance?

I've read it.

https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-5.htm

Deuteronomy 22:5 - "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."

https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/23-1.htm

Deuteronomy 23:1 - "No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord."

https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

I don't think those are the "empathy and acceptance" parts of the bible one should pay attention to that Rama was referring to.

I had no idea the bible had a thing about crossdressing. Are the Scots godless with their kilts?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 08, 2021, 12:02:16 PM
I presume Tom doesn't wear clothes with mixed fabrics or approve of farmers who mix their crops either...

https://biblehub.com/leviticus/19-19.htm
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Clyde Frog on July 08, 2021, 01:57:31 PM
That's some OT stuff right there. I thought Jesus made things better after that?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 08, 2021, 02:13:56 PM
I hope Tom's hair is nice

Lev 19:27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

And I'm surprised he supports the border wall when...

Lev 19:33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God."

It's fun, cherry picking isn't it?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 08, 2021, 03:30:12 PM
Actually, all of that is pretty good evidence that the Lord is very judgemental like in the passages I cited.

We can see that the cherry picker is really the person here pointing fingers who claims to be a Christian who accepts the Bible and word of God as sacred, yet wants to go through it and and reject the things they don't like. That is literally the definition of cherry picking. Open the sacred scriptures and pick and choose your own religion. Ingenious.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 08, 2021, 04:13:47 PM
That's some OT stuff right there. I thought Jesus made things better after that?
Indeed.

But people with certain agendas like to cherry pick certain verses to make their point but conveniently ignore others which they'd rather not want to worry about.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 08, 2021, 05:03:05 PM
Well, we are told that God doesn't change or lie:

Malachi 3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I do not change;"

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

Even Jesus says that he doesn't like sexual immorality:
 
Matthew 15:19-20 - "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person."

From an article "Did Jesus Ever Talk about Homosexuality?" by a pastor with an MDiv -

https://ca.thegospelcoalition.org/columns/ad-fontes/jesus-ever-talk-homosexuality/

Quote
But what did Jesus mean, precisely, when he referred to “sexual immorality” as one of those defiling and excluding sins?

The Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament And Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG) defines the word porneia, translated in most Bibles as “sexual immorality”, as involving “unlawful sexual intercourse”. The Jewish law provides a long list of what constitutes unlawful sexual intercourse in Leviticus 18-20. According to those statutes, a man was forbidden to have sex with the following:

1. His neighbour’s wife (Leviticus 18:21)

2. Another man (Leviticus 18:22)

3. An animal (Leviticus 18:23)

4. His mother in law (Leviticus 20:11)

5. His daughter in law (Leviticus 20:12)

6. His sister (Leviticus 20:17)

Sex with any of these would be considered porneia – unlawful.

According to Jesus sex of this sort defiles a person and thus places them outside the worshipping community and outside the eternal kingdom of God.

Therefore it certainly cannot be argued that Jesus affirmed or was indifferent toward the issue of homosexual sex. Jesus clearly endorsed the Old Testament vision of marriage as an inviolable covenant between one man and one woman and he clearly viewed unlawful sex as being the sort of thing that defiled a person and placed them outside the kingdom of God. Jesus did not use the word “homosexuality” but neither did he use the word “incest” or “bestiality”. He did not need to. In using the Greek word porneia he identified with how the Jewish law delineated lawful and unlawful sex.

According to Jesus, unlawful sex is sin.

Sin separates us from God.

The above suggests that Jesus still doesn't like homosexuals, just like the God in the OT. Homosexuality was clearly classified as 'sexually immoral' at the time of Jesus' statements. Why should we believe that he likes crossdressing now?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 08, 2021, 05:09:35 PM
The one-time I want Tom to cherry-pick, it blows up in my face. 
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 08, 2021, 05:10:09 PM
Well, we are told that God doesn't change or lie

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A38-48&version=NIV

Quote
You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also

God's nature doesn't change, but we are no longer under the law or the old covenent.
And while this is a complicated subject, the Jesus I see in the Gospels didn't preach hate.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 08, 2021, 08:04:45 PM
God's nature doesn't change, but we are no longer under the law or the old covenent.

Jesus says the opposite:

https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/MAT.5.17-19

Matthew 5:17-19

"Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
And while this is a complicated subject, the Jesus I see in the Gospels didn't preach hate.

Not sure about that one:

Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."

Matthew 10:34 - “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword."

Matthew 23:33 - “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence of hell?”

John 8:44 - “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father…”
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: WTF_Seriously on July 08, 2021, 08:53:44 PM
Hey Tom, how's the haircut?
Lev. 19:27 “ ‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

While we're at it, how are you on immigration?

Lev. 19:33 “ ‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Do you like bacon, Tom?

Lev. 11:7 And the pig, though it has a divided hoof, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you.

You're from the Bay Area, right?  Ever had clams, oysters, or crab?

Lev. 11:10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales—whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water—you are to regard as unclean. 11 And since you are to regard them as unclean, you must not eat their meat; you must regard their carcasses as unclean.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 09, 2021, 01:51:35 AM
Have you ever heard of kosher foods? There are plenty of observant faithful who try follow those rules. They follow them for reasons unknown to them. Maybe there is a hierarchy-of-life reason; unknown covenants between the life on Earth or its angle maintainers. Possibly quality reasons. Or perhaps God is trying to test his follower's discipline, like he tests people in the Bible at various points.

The hair rules may be in reference to something not to do when in mourning (https://fliphtml5.com/fgny/ukeq/basic). God judges your hair style when paying respects to the dead too, not only your cross-dressing and homo sex. It's a very judgemental God. The faithful who go as far to emulate the dietary restrictions would probably try to follow that as well, if they could remember, as evidenced by the extensive analysis of such passages.

All of this is further evidence that the OT is still cannon for many people and has not been discarded. People still try to follow those rules. Observant Jews eat kosher products. Muslims eat many of the kosher products. Some Christians do it.

Many Christians say that they don't need to do it with Matthew 15:11 - "Not what enters into the mouth defiles the man; but what goes forth out of the mouth, this defiles the man." But the reasoning for the dietary laws aren't really clearly stated in the scriptures. The purpose of it could be other than defilation, of course (testing, unknown covenants). Others advocate playing it safe with a simple plain following of the laws:

http://www.tylerinloes.com/kosher/

Quote
Should Christians Eat Kosher? “Kosher” describes food that complies with the dietary laws of traditional Jewish law found in the Torah. Matthew 5:17-18 tells Christians that Jesus came to fulfill not abolish the Laws. It continues that the laws will not disappear until heaven and earth disappear. If you believe in Jesus and heaven and earth have not disappeared you should eat a Kosher diet
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 09, 2021, 07:52:18 AM
Paul's vision in Acts 10 is generally why Christians don't feel bound by OT rules on food.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010&version=NIV

Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 09, 2021, 10:10:04 AM
Paul's vision in Acts 10 is generally why Christians don't feel bound by OT rules on food.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2010&version=NIV

So something came to him in a dream and told him to do something bad because God said it was okay. That sounds more like a personal lesson rather than a direct declaration to mankind about new rules. The interpretation of new rules given to mankind is indirect. In another story God tells Abraham to murder his son. But that doesn't mean murdering children is now okay. It was one of the numerous personal lessons/tests, which God eventually stopped on the mountain top.

Peter didn't even interpret the vision as it being okay to eat non-kosher foods:

https://messianic-revolution.com/l11-29-did-peters-vision-in-acts-10-really-mean-the-kosher-food-laws-were-abolished/

Quote
So in most Gentile churches when this portion of Scripture is read out loud, afterwards the pastor with a smug smile of satisfaction on his face closes his Bible, looks out to the audience and declares…

“Could it not be more plain?”

“The Lord had sent to Peter in a vision unclean forbidden animals and told him to kill and EAT them!”

“Therefore, the Lord has ceased from calling them unclean, and that’s why it’s okay to enjoy your ham sandwiches.”

Well, not so fast there Mr. Gentile Pastor.

The first thing we should take note of is that Peter was quite confused about the vision he had just had and didn’t immediately jump to any conclusions regarding its meaning.

And then a few verses later in verse 34, we’re told the conclusion Peter came to:

“Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.”

Peter interpreted this vision to mean that God accepted men from all nations who trusted in Him.

Peter did NOT interpret this to mean that he could now go hog wild (pun intended) and eat whatsoever pleased him.

Let me say that again.

Peter did NOT interpret this to mean that the Kosher food laws were now abolished.

He interpreted it to mean that God would accept all men, in other words Gentiles, who trusted in Him.

According to this Apostle, the one who wrote the actual Scripture of the Book of Acts, this portion of the New Testament is NOT to be taken as an instruction that the laws concerning clean and unclean animals had been done away with.

When Peter had finally figured out the meaning of the baffling vision God had given to him, the conclusion he reached was that it had nothing to do with food.

It had to do with men.

In other words, FOOD was being used as a metaphor representing MEN.

Here’s what you need to understand.

Unclean animals were a well-understood and very familiar Jewish symbol that represented the uncleanness of the Gentiles.

This whole story was all about Jews shunning gentiles because Jews considered all gentiles unclean.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 09, 2021, 10:22:47 AM
Oh, we're doing that again are we? Cherry picking an interpretation? I can do that too, look!:

http://www.steppesoffaith.com/apologetics/god-okay-eat-bacon

I'm just telling you one of the justifications I've heard. There's more in the above.
If you disagree and you consider yourself a Christian then feel free to follow the old rules.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 10, 2021, 01:58:57 AM
Have you noticed that every time you rant about cherry picking, that you're really the one doing it?

The Bible says something that you don't like, or doesn't say something, so you find an unstated interpretation. What is supposed to be a divinely appointed apostille and writer of the book in the Bible gave you the interpretation. He didn't interpret it as non-kosher foods being fine to eat. That was not the conclusion. If that was the conclusion, he would have said so. You ignored the author's conclusions of what it meant and came up with an interpretation to suit yourself.

And no, I don't eat kosher. I simply don't feel the need  to lie to myself about what it says.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 10, 2021, 07:08:40 AM
no u
See. The reason it’s you doing it is that, as always, you are promoting a view which is not common. I don’t know if you do that because you really go out of your way to not believe anything which is mainstream or whether you just think it’s fun to try and debate from the weaker position. But whatever, so you go off and cherry pick sources which back up that fringe view. And sure, you’ll always find some people who back that view up because the internet.
But can we agree that most Christians are not kosher? I have just shown one of the reasons why.

Quote
And no, I don't eat kosher. I simply don't feel the need  to lie to myself about what it says.
Oh right, so you’re just a hypocrite instead? You believe one thing but do another? Ok, if that’s what you’re going with.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 11, 2021, 12:56:10 AM
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
See. The reason it’s you doing it is that, as always, you are promoting a view which is not common. I don’t know if you do that because you really go out of your way to not believe anything which is mainstream or whether you just think it’s fun to try and debate from the weaker position. But whatever, so you go off and cherry pick sources which back up that fringe view.

So the Jews and Muslims who eat kosher or halal in accordance with the OT teachings have a fringe view now? Sounds fairly insulting to them.

Someone is certainly wrong about what God wants in the scriptures. It's the Christians versus the Jews and Muslims. Someone must have it wrong.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Oh right, so you’re just a hypocrite instead? You believe one thing but do another? Ok, if that’s what you’re going with.

I don't recall saying that the Bible should be religiously followed. I'm fairly skeptical about it. You're the guy who goes around bragging about being a Christian who believes the Bible is sacred, yet won't accept its teachings about gays, crossdressers, and sexual immorality. Pretty hypocritical on your part. Once again, you are falsely accusing people of doing what you are actually doing.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 11, 2021, 06:05:06 AM
So the Jews and Muslims who eat kosher or halal in accordance with the OT teachings have a fringe view now?
Well no. They’re not Christians. They don’t believe in the New Testament. If they did they’d be Christians. The view you’re exposing is a fringe view amongst Christians. I said:

Quote
But can we agree that most Christians are not kosher?

Quote
Someone is certainly wrong about what God wants in the scriptures. It's the Christians versus the Jews and Muslims. Someone must have it wrong.

Correct. They three religions can’t all be correct as they are all contradictory. The main sticking point (very simplistic view) seems to be about who Jesus was.

Quote
You're the guy who goes around bragging about being a Christian

Bragging?!  :D

I’ve already addressed the rest. You can’t look at the Old Testament in isolation, it has to be looked at through the lens of the New Testament. But these are admittedly complicated issues.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 11, 2021, 07:07:26 PM
Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Well no. They’re not Christians. They don’t believe in the New Testament. If they did they’d be Christians. The view you’re exposing is a fringe view amongst Christians. I said:

Quote
But can we agree that most Christians are not kosher?

The Jews and Muslims have access to those same texts, whether they choose to reject them or not. They obviously still believe that God is telling them to restrict their diet and don't see it what way. Eating kosher isn't a "fringe view." Plenty of people interpret the scriptures in that way.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Well I’ve already addressed the rest. You can’t look at the Old Testament in isolation, it has to be looked at through the lens of the New Testament. But these are admittedly complicated issues.

Here is a passage from the New Testament:

https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/ROM.1.26-27

Romans 1:26-27 - "That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved."

Shameful

Not normal

Sin

Suffered penalty

The New Testament is still clearly saying that homosexuality is bad there. I don't see that anything has changed.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Iceman on July 11, 2021, 07:24:59 PM
This thread is really something... what started as a discussion about whether trans athletes should be allowed to compete in gendered high school sporting competitions is now just a launch pad for ...whatever the hell the last couple dozen  posts have been  ???
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 11, 2021, 08:36:17 PM
This thread is really something... what started as a discussion about whether trans athletes should be allowed to compete in gendered high school sporting competitions is now just a launch pad for ...whatever the hell the last couple dozen  posts have been  ???

Tom being a troll. Business as usual.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 12, 2021, 06:19:22 AM
Yes, apologies for feeding the troll having previously suggested to others that we shouldn’t.

TL;DR - these are complicated issues which too many people pretend are simple ones.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 12, 2021, 06:52:01 PM
So the New Testament states that homosexuals are shameful, not normal, sinful, and deserve penalty. Your rebuttal is "you're trolling". ::)

It has been understood for a millennia that the Bible doesn't like gays. Your interpretation appears to be based solely on the "Love your neighbors" line, as if it means that we should suddenly accept pedophiles and their abuse of children, or accept murderers who kill innocents. No, it doesn't mean that the sins previously outlined in the Bible are abolished. The New Testament, and Jesus himself, outlines that murder, sexual offenses, theft, et all. are still bad.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Iceman on July 12, 2021, 08:25:24 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/91sn32Q.jpg)
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on July 15, 2021, 03:43:28 PM
In that way, I'm not sure that reassignment surgery and mutilating one's genitalia is appropriate.
Mutilating is absolutely the incorrect word. Surgery is not a violent disfigurement. No one says, "hi, I'd like to make an appointment for my breast mutilation."
Yeah, that is why so many live to regret the surgery later on, even utilizing the word, "mutilation," once time has passed.

Females do not feel mutilated and "less than" after a mastectomy.

Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 04:18:07 PM
In that way, I'm not sure that reassignment surgery and mutilating one's genitalia is appropriate.
Mutilating is absolutely the incorrect word. Surgery is not a violent disfigurement. No one says, "hi, I'd like to make an appointment for my breast mutilation."
Yeah, that is why so many live to regret the surgery later on, even utilizing the word, "mutilation," once time has passed.

Females do not feel mutilated and "less than" after a mastectomy.
Regretting a surgery does not make it mutilation. It makes it a surgery they regret. And regretting transitioning, while tragic, is not the topic at hand. The word mutilation for surgeries in this thread is only being used for outrage effect.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 15, 2021, 04:48:25 PM
Regretting a surgery does not make it mutilation. It makes it a surgery they regret. And regretting transitioning, while tragic, is not the topic at hand. The word mutilation for surgeries in this thread is only being used for outrage effect.
When you take a perfectly healthy functioning set of genitalia and you chop at them with a scalpel and leave them now unable to perform the functions of genitalia ... that is a mutilation.

Quote from: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mutilation
Definition of mutilation
1: an act or instance of destroying, removing, or severely damaging a limb or other body part of a person or animal

It is the perfect description of what is happening. It is not a description used for outrage effect.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 05:14:16 PM
Mutilation has a connotation of violence though. Like "the axe murderer mutilated the person so it's going to be a closed casket funeral."

mu·ti·late
verb
inflict a violent and disfiguring injury on.

But it doesn't matter, I won't argue semantics about this anymore. It's incredibly rude to people who have gender reassignment surgeries but I know you're not concerned about that.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 15, 2021, 05:30:48 PM
Mutilation has a connotation of violence though. Like "the axe murderer mutilated the person so it's going to be a closed casket funeral."

mu·ti·late
verb
inflict a violent and disfiguring injury on.
FGM is considered mutilation. That's not axe murderers. It is usually religious figures doing something vile as part of a ceremony. Much like doctors doing something vile as part of an unnecessary procedure.

It's incredibly rude to people who have gender reassignment surgeries but I know you're not concerned about that.
You can't keep shying away from conversations because you perceive someone might get upset. Your bank doesn't give a shit about upsetting you if you lose your job and can't pay your mortgage. They'll tell you straight. We're taking your home. We don't care how much that ruins your life. You will not be considered a victim and no one will defend you. But somehow "you are not going to be a woman but instead a mutilated man" is far worse. ??? What upside down liberal logic is this?

Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 05:43:14 PM
FGM is considered mutilation. That's not axe murderers. It is usually religious figures doing something vile as part of a ceremony. Much like doctors doing something vile as part of an unnecessary procedure.
Female genital mutilation (FGM), also known as female genital cutting (FGC) or just known as female circumcision.

The FGM is likely called what it is because "Female Genital Mutilation comprises all procedures involving the removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons." And because it's illegal in the States so we want it to sound terrible because words matter.

Transgender reassignment surgery is treatment for a medical condition - gender dysphoria.

Quote
You can't keep shying away from conversations because you perceive someone might get upset. Your bank doesn't give a shit about upsetting you if you lose your job and can't pay your mortgage. They'll tell you straight. We're taking your home. We don't care how much that ruins your life. You will not be considered a victim and no one will defend you. But somehow "you are not going to be a woman but instead a mutilated man" is far worse. ??? What upside down liberal logic is this?
Who's shying away from a conversation? If the conversation is whether it should be considered an illegal mutilation then yeah I won't have that one with you because that's not the reality.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 15, 2021, 07:09:57 PM
The FGM is likely called what it is because "Female Genital Mutilation comprises all procedures involving the removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons."
And gender reassignment for 'transwomen' is a procedure to remove the external male genitalia for non-medical reasons.

Now I know you are going to squeal that it is a medical reason and that it is for gender dysmorphia, but it doesn't cure the patient. The patient is not turned into a woman and gender dysmorphia is a psychological problem, not a physiological problem. Instead they end up with extensive genital injuries and many end up with catheters, urinary tract problems and other complications and you have these problems because you were not cured, you were mutilated.

And because it's illegal in the States so we want it to sound terrible because words matter.
Are you defending female genital mutilation? A proud day for women everywhere I'm sure. 🙄

Transgender reassignment surgery is treatment for a medical condition - gender dysphoria.
In the same way as a course of leeches is a cure for homosexuality, sure.

If the conversation is whether it should be considered an illegal mutilation then yeah I won't have that one with you because that's not the reality.
So now that the liberals have what they want (the ability to mutilate vulnerable people because it makes them feel good), it is no longer up for debate. We can't make this predatory medical practice illegal?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: garygreen on July 15, 2021, 07:30:05 PM
wearing spectacles doesn't resolve the underlying disorder, therefore wearing glasses is bad you should just go see a therapist about getting over your vision issues
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 07:32:25 PM
Now I know you are going to squeal that it is a medical reason and that it is for gender dysmorphia, but it doesn't cure the patient.
I already did point out in my post that it is to treat gender dysphoria (not dysmorphia). Whether or not you like that doesn't matter.

Quote
Are you defending female genital mutilation?
No

Quote
So now that the liberals have what they want (the ability to mutilate vulnerable people because it makes them feel good), it is no longer up for debate. We can't make this predatory medical practice illegal?
Why is this a political matter? Constantly saying anyone who supports sex reassignment surgery is a liberal is incorrect, just look at Caitlyn Jenner. And also I'm not a liberal.

Until you come up with a better way to treat people that isn't already in place and is proven to work then what's the point in discussing it further? Since you have no medical experience, no ongoing academic or medical studies into gender dysphoria, and very little understanding of history and gender in general then it would just be your whiny opinions.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 15, 2021, 08:22:35 PM
wearing spectacles doesn't resolve the underlying disorder, therefore wearing glasses is bad you should just go see a therapist about getting over your vision issues
Requiring glasses is a physiological problem. Therefore spectacles will help. However, if you identified as short-sighted and even though you aren't and absolutely insisted that you required glasses, those glasses wouldn't help you. In fact ... they'd make your vision worse.

Now I know you are going to squeal that it is a medical reason and that it is for gender dysmorphia, but it doesn't cure the patient.
I already did point out in my post that it is to treat gender dysphoria (not dysmorphia). Whether or not you like that doesn't matter.
No, as you said, words matter.


Interestingly ... this 'gender dysphoria' nonsense explodes in 2008
click for interesting graph (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cisgender%2Cgender+dysphoria&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccisgender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgender%20dysphoria%3B%2Cc0#t1%3B%2Ccisgender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgender%20dysphoria%3B%2Cc0)
Clearly someone is funding this propaganda. Soros maybe? Just imagine ... the word cisgender didn't even exist in 2001. Someone literally made it up about 20 years ago. It also explodes in 2008. What happens in 2008? Mmmm, Obama gets in. The Dems start immediately tugging on the levers of power. 🤔


Why is this a political matter?
These are the culture wars. It is highly political.

Constantly saying anyone who supports sex reassignment surgery is incorrect, just look at Caitlyn Jenner.
What, he's 'cured' is he? A fully fledged woman? ... Reality check - he's a bad drag act.

And also I'm not a liberal.
I don't care how you identify.  ::) you hold liberal views ... you are a liberal. This entire identifying thing ... you don't do the identifying. Everyone else does. You don't get to tell me that you are a man, or a conservative or attractive. I make up my own mind on those things. You don't get to control how I think about you. And this authoritarian brow beating is why people hate you fucking liberals so much.


Until you come up with a better way to treat people that isn't already in place and is proven to work then what's the point in discussing it further?
I have a better way. Tell them ... Sir, you are not a woman. I'll see you same time next week for another session.

Since you have no medical experience, no ongoing academic or medical studies into gender dysphoria, and very little understanding of history and gender in general then it would just be your whiny opinions.
I just looked up the history. The whole thing was fabricated in 2008 when Obama got in. It's a political movement. It has nothing to do with medicine.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 08:52:04 PM
I don't care how you identify.  ::) you hold liberal views ... you are a liberal. This entire identifying thing ... you don't do the identifying. Everyone else does. You don't get to tell me that you are a man, or a conservative or attractive. I make up my own mind on those things. You don't get to control how I think about you. And this authoritarian brow beating is why people hate you fucking liberals so much.
Whew, good thing I'm not a liberal then.

Quote
I just looked up the history. The whole thing was fabricated in 2008 when Obama got in. It's a political movement. It has nothing to do with medicine.

"The term “gender dysphoria syndrome” was proposed in 1973, which includes transsexualism in addition to other gender identity disorders. Gender dysphoria is used to describe the resulting dissatisfaction of the conflict between gender identity and assigned sex."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1665579615000071#:~:text=The%20term%20%E2%80%9Cgender%20dysphoria%20syndrome,gender%20identity%20and%20assigned%20sex.

It's only recently that it's no longer considered a syndrome or disorder. But it's in no way a recent thing.

"Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4500 years ago document transgender or transvestite priests known as gala and by other names. A grave of a possibly transgender person in Europe has been identified from 4500 years ago, and likely depictions occur in art around the Mediterranean from 9000 to 3700 years ago. In Ancient Greece, Phrygia, and Rome, there were galli priests that some scholars believe to have been trans women, and records of women who passed as men in order to vote, fight, or study during times when these things were forbidden for women. Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222) preferred to be called a lady (rather than a lord), sought sex reassignment surgery, and has been seen as an early trans figure. Hijras on the Indian subcontinent and kathoeys in Thailand have formed trans-feminine third gender social and spiritual communities since ancient times, with their presence documented for thousands of years in texts, which also mention trans male figures. Religious iconography in these cultures includes depictions of androgynous figures with bodies that are male on one side and female on the other, like Ardhanarishvara. Today, at least half a million hijras live in India and another half million in Bangladesh, legally recognized as a third gender, and many trans people are accepted in Thailand. In Arabia, khanith today (like earlier mukhannathun) fulfill a third gender role attested since the 600s. In Africa, many societies have traditional roles for trans women and trans men, some of which survive in the modern era amid recent widespread hostility. In the Americas prior to European colonization, as well as in some contemporary North American Indigenous cultures, there are social and ceremonial roles for third gender people, or those whose gender expression transforms, such as the Navajo nádleehi or the Zuni lhamana."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

So weird how none of those dates say or refer to 2008.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 15, 2021, 08:58:17 PM
Yup, so I just had a look for

"Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4500 years ago document transgender or transvestite priests known as gala and by other names.

And being as transgender was invented in 1986 (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cisgender%2Cgender+dysphoria%2C+transgender&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccisgender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgender%20dysphoria%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ctransgender%3B%2Cc0), I cast some doubt on your 'transgender' individual from 4500 years ago. What is happening is that the left are trying to rewrite history again.

PS - I'm not accepting a wikipedia entry written by a blue-haired liberal arts student as a counter source for the hard data on word usage that I provided.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 09:22:03 PM
Yup, so I just had a look for

"Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4500 years ago document transgender or transvestite priests known as gala and by other names.

And being as transgender was invented in 1986 (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cisgender%2Cgender+dysphoria%2C+transgender&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccisgender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgender%20dysphoria%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ctransgender%3B%2Cc0), I cast some doubt on your 'transgender' individual from 4500 years ago. What is happening is that the left are trying to rewrite history again.
So essentially, "nuh uh! They didn't use this exact word in Sumeria and Akkadia!" Ya got me there.

Quote
PS - I'm not accepting a wikipedia entry written by a blue-haired liberal arts student as a counter source for the hard data on word usage that I provided.
Wikipedia is a great place to start for someone who has no concept of the past outside of the bible. But you can get a free JSTOR subscription which will let you read up to 100 articles a month (during COVID).




Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 15, 2021, 09:28:06 PM
Yup, so I just had a look for

"Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4500 years ago document transgender or transvestite priests known as gala and by other names.

And being as transgender was invented in 1986 (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cisgender%2Cgender+dysphoria%2C+transgender&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Ccisgender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cgender%20dysphoria%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Ctransgender%3B%2Cc0), I cast some doubt on your 'transgender' individual from 4500 years ago. What is happening is that the left are trying to rewrite history again.
So essentially, "nuh uh! They didn't use this exact word in Sumeria and Akkadia!" Ya got me there.

I think it fairly obvious they were transvestites. The idea that you can change your gender just by believing that you can, is ironically a very modern view. Not even 4500 years ago did they believe you could wish yourself the opposite sex and it would be so. They'd still put on a dress and pretend, but crucially the rest of society didn't pander to them.

 
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: garygreen on July 15, 2021, 09:34:19 PM
Requiring glasses is a physiological problem. Therefore spectacles will help.

awesome, sounds like we're in complete agreement that treating physiological problems is helpful.

However, if you identified as short-sighted and even though you aren't and absolutely insisted that you required glasses, those glasses wouldn't help you. In fact ... they'd make your vision worse.

i'm not talking about anyone's identity. i'm talking simply about a person having a physiological problem and then treating it. your argument was that that's bad because you can't go against your dna or whatever — your dna says you are a boy, so it's bad to make yourself look like a girl, change your hormones, etc.

i'm just trying to figure out why it super duper matters what my dna says in one case but not others. like, i can fry my fucking eyeballs with lasers and you're cool with that, even though my dna says i am nearsighted. but i can't use lasers to make myself look different because that goes against my dna and is suddenly bad for some reason?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Iceman on July 15, 2021, 09:35:33 PM
Awh man, can we go back and delete the last few posts so we can go back to Obama creating transgender people?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 15, 2021, 09:41:08 PM
Awh man, can we go back and delete the last few posts so we can go back to Obama creating transgender people?
You're too late. No one wanted to take me up on that one. With no rebuttal, we must all just accept it as tfes lore now.

Requiring glasses is a physiological problem. Therefore spectacles will help.

awesome, sounds like we're in complete agreement that treating physiological problems is helpful.
Except gender dysmorphia is a psychological problem. The issues are in your head. Not your body.

i'm not talking about anyone's identity. i'm talking simply about a person having a physiological problem and then treating it. your argument was that that's bad because you can't go against your dna or whatever — your dna says you are a boy, so it's bad to make yourself look like a girl, change your hormones, etc.

i'm just trying to figure out why it super duper matters what my dna says in one case but not others. like, i can fry my fucking eyeballs with lasers and you're cool with that, even though my dna says i am nearsighted. but i can't use lasers to make myself look different because that goes against my dna and is suddenly bad for some reason?
I have no idea what you are talking about ... and that makes two of us.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: rooster on July 15, 2021, 09:47:21 PM
I think it fairly obvious they were transvestites. The idea that you can change your gender just by believing that you can, is ironically a very modern view. Not even 4500 years ago did they believe you could wish yourself the opposite sex and it would be so. They'd still put on a dress and pretend, but crucially the rest of society didn't pander to them.

"Call me not Lord, for I am a Lady." - Elagabalus

More about Elagabalus - "He carried his lewdness to such a point that he asked the physicians to contrive a woman's vagina in his body by means of an incision, promising them large sums for doing so." The three main contemporary sources for this person are pretty negatively biased because they disliked his religion and thought he was weird. So you can't go crying that some blue haired liberal wrote it.

But going into the topic of gender and what they truly identified with would be a lot more complicated discussion because we'd also need to fully understand how cultures of the past even viewed gender and/or sex and that's a huge undertaking. But overall, it's absolutely not new - just the way we talk about it now might be different.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 15, 2021, 09:59:48 PM
"Call me not Lord, for I am a Lady." - Elagabalus

More about Elagabalus - "He carried his lewdness to such a point that he asked the physicians to contrive a woman's vagina in his body by means of an incision, promising them large sums for doing so." The three main contemporary sources for this person are pretty negatively biased because they disliked his religion and thought he was weird. So you can't go crying that some blue haired liberal wrote it.
So we have a man, ... no ordinary man but an emperor, who has this perversion dysphoria issue. He demands to be a woman ... and yet they do not hack his Johnson off. They didn't even pander to an emperor, so ridiculous the request. - Interesting example though.

But going into the topic of gender and what they truly identified with would be a lot more complicated discussion because we'd also need to fully understand how cultures of the past even viewed gender and/or sex and that's a huge undertaking. But overall, it's absolutely not new - just the way we talk about it now might be different.
The desire to be a different sex isn't new. That's a very old mental illness I'm sure. What is new is other people being compelled to use a preferred pronoun under threat of losing ones job if failing to indulge the delusion. What's new is allowing the man to compete against women in sport or to use a woman's toilet. What's new is encouraging young men and women to have these ghastly procedures. You can pinpoint all these things starting in 2008 when Obama gets in.

@Iceman, you're up. You get a second chance.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 15, 2021, 11:01:31 PM
"Call me not Lord, for I am a Lady." - Elagabalus

More about Elagabalus - "He carried his lewdness to such a point that he asked the physicians to contrive a woman's vagina in his body by means of an incision, promising them large sums for doing so." The three main contemporary sources for this person are pretty negatively biased because they disliked his religion and thought he was weird. So you can't go crying that some blue haired liberal wrote it.
So we have a man, ... no ordinary man but an emperor, who has this perversion dysphoria issue. He demands to be a woman ... and yet they do not hack his Johnson off. They didn't even pander to an emperor, so ridiculous the request. - Interesting example though.

But going into the topic of gender and what they truly identified with would be a lot more complicated discussion because we'd also need to fully understand how cultures of the past even viewed gender and/or sex and that's a huge undertaking. But overall, it's absolutely not new - just the way we talk about it now might be different.
The desire to be a different sex isn't new. That's a very old mental illness I'm sure. What is new is other people being compelled to use a preferred pronoun under threat of losing ones job if failing to indulge the delusion. What's new is allowing the man to compete against women in sport or to use a woman's toilet. What's new is encouraging young men and women to have these ghastly procedures. You can pinpoint all these things starting in 2008 when Obama gets in.

@Iceman, you're up. You get a second chance.

Unsurprisingly, everything Thork wrote is wrong.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Iceman on July 16, 2021, 12:39:23 AM
@Iceman, you're up. You get a second chance.

Second chance at what?  I just want to hear all the details about how Obama created transgenders. It seems like you've gone to the Tom Bishop research academy on this one...
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on July 16, 2021, 03:31:55 PM
In that way, I'm not sure that reassignment surgery and mutilating one's genitalia is appropriate.
Mutilating is absolutely the incorrect word. Surgery is not a violent disfigurement. No one says, "hi, I'd like to make an appointment for my breast mutilation."
Yeah, that is why so many live to regret the surgery later on, even utilizing the word, "mutilation," once time has passed.

Females do not feel mutilated and "less than" after a mastectomy.
Regretting a surgery does not make it mutilation. It makes it a surgery they regret. And regretting transitioning, while tragic, is not the topic at hand. The word mutilation for surgeries in this thread is only being used for outrage effect.
No, the word mutilation is being used because it is the correct term.

And like I wrote, breast cancer patients having mastectomies feel mutilated afterwards because they are.

This essentially boils down to what is obviously a small, but very vocal group of morons, not having the slightest clue about life in general, being currently successful in their foisting of bullshit upon the people surrounding them.

The reason it is provably bullshit is the common practice of instantaneous changing of the meaning of the words, the history, or whatever else deemed necessary in order to cater to their current feelings about an issue.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 16, 2021, 03:41:31 PM
Like using the word mutilation to describe a surgical procedure.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on July 16, 2021, 04:00:35 PM
Like using the word mutilation to describe a surgical procedure.
^And here it is.

Breast cancer patients use the word mutilation after a mastectomy because, like it or not, that is what took place. A mutilation.

You, in support of appeasing some mentally disturbed individual who doesn't likely know their fucking ass from a hole in the ground, want to allow them to feel any way they wish at any given moment in time.

A breast cancer patient?

Fuck their feelings, I suppose, when it comes to labeling the results of their operation a mutilation of their body.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 16, 2021, 06:07:34 PM
Like using the word mutilation to describe a surgical procedure.
^And here it is.

Breast cancer patients use the word mutilation after a mastectomy because, like it or not, that is what took place. A mutilation.

So?  Why does being a breast cancer patient make their use of language correct?  Sounds like you are letting feelings get in the way.

Quote
You, in support of appeasing some mentally disturbed individual who doesn't likely know their fucking ass from a hole in the ground, want to allow them to feel any way they wish at any given moment in time.

Breathe

Quote
A breast cancer patient?

Fuck their feelings, I suppose, when it comes to labeling the results of their operation a mutilation of their body.

I guess you can make up anything to satisfy your tribal urges.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: garygreen on July 16, 2021, 10:55:02 PM
The issues are in your head. Not your body.

your head is part of your body, you nut.

either way, the point is that you have been arguing that being trans is a psychological issue with respect to one's genetics. that's why you use words like "delusional" — you're saying it's a delusion about one's genetics. any way you slice it, your argument is "some medical treatments are bad because they defy your genetic code."

I have no idea what you are talking about

really? it's not that complicated, but i can try to dumb it down for you.

i'm trying to figure out why you think it's okay to use medicine to fix things about ourselves in some cases — even when those things are caused by our genetic code — but not okay in other cases.

alice wants to have a double-mastectomy to make her look more like a man, even though her genetic code says she is a woman.
bob wants to have laisik eye surgery to make his vision better, even though his genetic code says he is nearsighted.

i'm still waiting for someone to explain an actual qualitative difference between these two scenarios without simply bleating "but..but..alice's genetic code!"
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 17, 2021, 07:36:51 AM
The problem is in your brain. The treatment targets everything and anything else.

This is like chopping off a man's foot because he has toothache. It'll certainly take his mind off his teeth for a while, but its not a cure.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2021, 11:01:17 AM
This is like chopping off a man's foot because he has toothache. It'll certainly take his mind off his teeth for a while, but its not a cure.
Oh, is it like that? Can you link me to the evidence for chopping off feet making people with toothaches' lives better?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 17, 2021, 11:22:44 AM
This is like chopping off a man's foot because he has toothache. It'll certainly take his mind off his teeth for a while, but its not a cure.
Oh, is it like that? Can you link me to the evidence for chopping off feet making people with toothaches' lives better?
The point is that it won't make their lives better.

And you can give a man a new pair of boobs and I'm sure it'll keep him busy playing with those for a few months, but eventually he's going to realise he's just a guy with some silicon implants and he'll be unhappy again. He needs therapy, not new boobs.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2021, 11:26:09 AM
Oh, is it like that? Can you link me to the evidence for chopping off feet making people with toothaches' lives better?
The point is that it won't make their lives better.
I'm aware that that's your point, but you seem to have missed mine, which is that your uninformed opinions are not more reliable than medical studies.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 17, 2021, 11:32:03 AM
I'm aware that that's your point, but you seem to have missed mine, which is that your uninformed opinions are not more reliable than medical studies.
I disagree. Medicine has become utterly corrupt. It is about funding and grants. You can bend statistics to say whatever you like. We've been sold a lie that science is infallible, and that it is the source of truth. In reality it is the exact same as "god said so". You just have the elites people paying scientists instead of priests to come to the conclusions of truth that they require. You arrive at the answer that transgender isn't a thing .... your funding stops. Now the only papers being generated are the ones saying it is a thing.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2021, 11:46:18 AM
I disagree. Medicine has become utterly corrupt. It is about funding and grants. You can bend statistics to say whatever you like. We've been sold a lie that science is infallible, and that it is the source of truth. In reality it is the exact same as "god said so". You just have the elites people paying scientists instead of priests to come to the conclusions of truth that they require. You arrive at the answer that transgender isn't a thing .... your funding stops. Now the only papers being generated are the ones saying it is a thing.
What are you basing this on?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 17, 2021, 12:12:58 PM
One such example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlqU_JMTzd4
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2021, 12:14:41 PM
One such example.
You didn't say you had one example. If you look hard enough, you'll find an example of just about anything. You said it applied to the entire medical profession.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 17, 2021, 12:22:39 PM
One such example.
You didn't say you had one example. If you look hard enough, you'll find an example of just about anything. You said it applied to the entire medical profession.

The video is 23 minutes and 54 seconds long.

You noticed my post and had a reply sent in under 2 minutes. I'm going to go right ahead and make the assumption you din't watch the video and have no fucking clue what the video is even about, and yet here you are challenging my example.  ::)

The example shows ... with the use of over 20 scientific papers, how the system is corrupt. But you don't want to see that, you just want to refute my assertion.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Action80 on July 17, 2021, 12:25:03 PM
One such example.
You didn't say you had one example. If you look hard enough, you'll find an example of just about anything. You said it applied to the entire medical profession.
And you presented "medical studies," not "medical study." as reliable, when they're not.

Who you tryin to zoom here?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2021, 12:44:40 PM
You noticed my post and had a reply sent in under 2 minutes. I'm going to go right ahead and make the assumption you din't watch the video and have no fucking clue what the video is even about, and yet here you are challenging my example.  ::)
Correct. You have proven repeatedly that your points are not worth spending 24 minutes on, so if you can't take the time to write a summary of the point you're trying to get across, I'm certainly not wasting my time on it.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 17, 2021, 12:48:26 PM
You noticed my post and had a reply sent in under 2 minutes. I'm going to go right ahead and make the assumption you din't watch the video and have no fucking clue what the video is even about, and yet here you are challenging my example.  ::)
Correct. You have proven repeatedly that your points are not worth spending 24 minutes on, so if you can't take the time to write a summary of the point you're trying to get across, I'm certainly not wasting my time on it.

It's a Joe Rogan podcast ... I don't think I could make giving you evidence that you don't like, any more palatable. You can just listen to the podcast and do other stuff at the same time.

So if we are at the point where you won't even look at my sources, you just want to scream that they are wrong whilst providing ... as usual ... zero sources of your own, it looks like the debate is over. If my points aren't worth spending your time on ... don't reply to them.  ::)
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2021, 01:05:27 PM
So if we are at the point where you won't even look at my sources
I am more than happy to look at sources, but "watch this half-hour video" is not a reasonable reply if you can't even summarise in your own words what about it supports your point.

you just want to scream that they are wrong whilst providing ... as usual ... zero sources of your own, it looks like the debate is over. If my points aren't worth spending your time on ... don't reply to them.  ::)
A source was provided long ago.

That's because gender identity isn't a thing. Imagining that you are a woman does not make you one.
What are your thoughts on the brain research I posted a few pages back on the thread? A brain that is structurally and functionally female in a male body doesn't sound like something that "isn't a thing" or is simply someone's imagination.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

Until we have moved past your dismissing any source you don't like as pseudoscience, there's no point providing more, is there?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2021, 01:20:04 PM
It's a Joe Rogan podcast ... I don't think I could make giving you evidence that you don't like, any more palatable. You can just listen to the podcast and do other stuff at the same time.
I just watched the first 6 minutes of it (that's a quarter of the total length, for those following along at home). The medical profession wasn't mentioned once, and the first paper they talked about was published in a journal called "Gender, Place & Culture: A Journal of Feminist Geography". I'm going to cut this short and assume it doesn't get any more relevant in the remaining 18 minutes.

Do better.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 17, 2021, 01:34:52 PM
I know that episode and it’s about how those guys trolled sociologists, it’s not about the medical profession at all.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Toddler Thork on July 17, 2021, 02:03:19 PM
I know that episode and it’s about how those guys trolled sociologists, it’s not about the medical profession at all.
It is about getting papers published in the field of gender studies ... and how you can pretty much get anything published so long as it is on message. IE the science doesn't matter.

So ... when Xasop says
I'm aware that that's your point, but you seem to have missed mine, which is that your uninformed opinions are not more reliable than medical studies.
My reply is ... your medical studies are absolute horseshit and here are examples of people gaming the very same corrupt system. And here is a video of the men who proved it telling you what they did and how this system you just told me is reliable, utterly isn't.
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: xasop on July 17, 2021, 02:05:36 PM
My reply is ... your medical studies are absolute horseshit and here are examples of people gaming the very same corrupt system. And here is a video of the men who proved it telling you what they did and how this system you just told me is reliable, utterly isn't.
Are you telling me that you believe "Gender, Place & Culture: A Journal of Feminist Geography" is a medical journal?
Title: Re: Trans athletes
Post by: Rama Set on July 17, 2021, 02:35:01 PM
I know that episode and it’s about how those guys trolled sociologists, it’s not about the medical profession at all.
It is about getting papers published in the field of gender studies ... and how you can pretty much get anything published so long as it is on message. IE the science doesn't matter.

So ... when Xasop says
I'm aware that that's your point, but you seem to have missed mine, which is that your uninformed opinions are not more reliable than medical studies.
My reply is ... your medical studies are absolute horseshit and here are examples of people gaming the very same corrupt system. And here is a video of the men who proved it telling you what they did and how this system you just told me is reliable, utterly isn't.

You keep making your case against medical studies by not referring to medical studies.