[Dr David Thork]

"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels

I agree. Testosterone levels is a stupid way to determine sex. Chromosome tests please.

[Gayer]

"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels

If they're been disqualified under the same rules that Caster Semenya falls under then technically they're not female, those rules only apply to people with male DSDs (intersex) that were mistakingly assigned female at birth, the naturally high testosterone levels will be due to internal testes. If doping via steroids isn't allowed, it shouldn't be allowed via testes either. Doping is doping.

[Rama Set]

"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels

If they're been disqualified under the same rules that Caster Semenya falls under then technically they're not female, those rules only apply to people with male DSDs (intersex) that were mistakingly assigned female at birth, the naturally high testosterone levels will be due to internal testes. If doping via steroids isn't allowed, it shouldn't be allowed via testes either. Doping is doping.

Doling via steroids is illegal because you are adding exogenous substances to your body which are explicitly designed to quickly stimulate athletic performance. At what point does your natural genetic advantage become “doping”?

[Gayer]

"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels

If they're been disqualified under the same rules that Caster Semenya falls under then technically they're not female, those rules only apply to people with male DSDs (intersex) that were mistakingly assigned female at birth, the naturally high testosterone levels will be due to internal testes. If doping via steroids isn't allowed, it shouldn't be allowed via testes either. Doping is doping.

Doling via steroids is illegal because you are adding exogenous substances to your body which are explicitly designed to quickly stimulate athletic performance. At what point does your natural genetic advantage become “doping”?

When its male level in a female contest, of course, because that makes it an unfair advantage rather than just an advantage. Intersex athletes are sought out because of the natural doping, but now that's being cracked down on. Its harsh on the athletes themselves, but all competitors have to be taken into account.

[Rama Set]

“Male level” isn’t really a thing. There is lots of crossover and a measurement of testosterone in isolation isn’t a good predictor of athletic performance. There are professional male athletes that have lower than average levels of testosterone, for example.

[honk]

Of course it is oppression.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/christian-doctor-trans-woman-sacked-gender-pronouns-universal-credit-a8999176.html
That is oppression. "Hey doctor, I know you have decades of medical experience but I'm a woman and you are wrong. Don't agree? Welp, let's take your livelihood from you". It is absolutely oppression. Think like me or be punished is oppression, Honk. 
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/virginia-teacher-says-wrongfully-fired-student-wrong-pronouns-trnd/index.html

Having a different opinion is not an excuse to deliberately be unpleasant to others in a professional environment. That's what these people were fired for - not for having the wrong opinion, and not for simply disagreeing with the concept of transgenderism to begin with - but for refusing to use the preferred pronouns of people they came into contact with. It's no different to having policies against bullying, harassment, or anti-social behavior in general. You have to treat people with respect at work, no matter what opinions you have of them.

[rooster]

It's not male level, the level they're disqualifying them at is much lower then biological male testosterone levels.

“Never mind that the performance differential between the so-called “differences in sexual development” (DSD) or “high-testosterone” athlete is less than 3 per cent in running events, according to the IAAF’s own research–meaning that the difference is almost irrelevant.

The IAAF would determine that Ms. Semenya has “unusually” high testosterone levels–which, it should be said, are well below the lowest threshold of a biological male–and ruled that she must chemically alter her body to continue competing, as part of broader regulations around female athletes with naturally high testosterone levels.

https://runningmagazine.ca/the-scene/800m-silver-medallist-niyonsaba-goes-public-about-her-hyperandrogenism/

And I couldn't find anything about people with DSD or hyperandrogenism being incorrectly labelled female or necessarily having testes. In fact, it's thought to be common the female elite athletes have higher naturally occurring testosterone.

And if this is okay, why aren't we disqualifying people like Michael Phelps when he naturally makes half the lactic acid other athletes do so doesn't feel normal fatigue? That also seems like an unfair advantage.

[Gayer]

There's no crossover in testosterone - the lower male levels are still 4-5 times higher than female levels so no crossover. Of course testosterone alone isn't a good indicator but testosterone plus other differences the male body has to the female body make a big difference.

The limit they are set at is still more than twice the highest normal female level, so more than fair to athletes with DSDs. "The regulations will be restricted to women with DSD having normal androgen receptor function and not to athletes with any type of hyperandrogenism. Only women with DSD, adrenal or ovarian tumors, or doped athletes can have circulating testosterone in the male range"* Its not mere hyperandrogenism, like PCOS (which is overrepresented in female athletes, like you said) but those with such high levels of testosterone that they either have testes, or a tumour (and tumour is probably quite unlikely as I doubt they'd be in sporting condition with tumours). And the difference isn't 3%, its more than 9% which is a big difference in elite sports.

We don't disqualify Phelps for making less lactic acid because that does not have a big impact - sex is the biggest difference in athletic ability, that's why they separate males and females. We all know that, you can see the difference in children as young as 6 if you go to a school sports day, and once puberty hits that difference becomes unfair.

*Source: https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/104/2/503/5114458

[rooster]

If the IAAF says they can compete in middle distance running if they take something like hormonal contraceptives to lower their testosterone to <5 nmol/L then do you think it's fair to extend those same rules to transwomen?

And I would disagree about Michael Phelps's genetic advantage not having a big impact. He's won the most gold medals ever.

[Gayer]

If the IAAF says they can compete in middle distance running if they take something like hormonal contraceptives to lower their testosterone to <5 nmol/L then do you think it's fair to extend those same rules to transwomen?

And I would disagree about Michael Phelps's genetic advantage not having a big impact. He's won the most gold medals ever.

Well frankly no, I don't think its fair for any males to compete in female sports, no matter what their testosterone levels are, though its more of a grey area with athletes with DSDs. But certainly anyone who has gone through normal male puberty should not be allowed to compete against women, its blatantly unfair and everyone knows it but just pretends not to because they think inclusion matters more. Inclusion is important, but in sports fairness and safety should come first.

[rooster]

What if they haven't gone through male puberty?

[Gayer]

Then that's entirely different, if they haven't gone through male puberty then they won't have the massive advantage so no need to exclude them in my opinion.

[Dr David Thork]

Then that's entirely different, if they haven't gone through male puberty then they won't have the massive advantage so no need to exclude them in my opinion.

Except they might be 7 feet tall ... unless you carefully controlled their hormones with drugs ... in which case its not them ... its your drugs that made them like that.

[Gayer]

Then that's entirely different, if they haven't gone through male puberty then they won't have the massive advantage so no need to exclude them in my opinion.

Except they might be 7 feet tall ... unless you carefully controlled their hormones with drugs ... in which case its not them ... its your drugs that made them like that.

Its a pretty self-limiting issue as if they've been on puberty blockers for a few years to avoid male puberty then the health impact of blockers will probably limit athletic hopes judging by the health issues that women who were on them for precocious puberty have suffered. Its really not a good option for them.

[scomato]

Steroids giving players an unfair advantage is apparently not ok - but a child being trained from birth full-time by a professional coach because parents are rich - no problem!

[Gayer]

You can't control for every aspect that gives advantage or disadvantage, so just the main aspects are controlled for - sex, age, and in some sports weight.

[Dr David Thork]

You can't control for every aspect that gives advantage or disadvantage, so just the main aspects are controlled for - sex, age, and in some sports weight.

I've always thought height should be one. Basketball is the most stupid sport on earth. It is all about height.

Drawing on Centers for Disease Control data, Sports Illustrated's Pablo Torre estimated that no more than 70 American men are between the ages of 20 and 40 and at least 7 feet tall. "While the probability of, say, an American between 6'6" and 6'8" being an NBA player today stands at a mere 0.07%, it's a staggering 17% for someone 7 feet or taller,

Let that sink in. 17% of men of playing age over 7 feet tall end up in the NBA. That's not about skill or sporting prowess. It is just about height. It makes it the most exclusive and uninteresting sport on earth. Those men aren't the most skilful. They're just tall. Surely basketball should have height divisions ... and if it was competitive and not franchised ... it probably would.

[Tom Bishop]

My intuition tells me no and I think humanizing them would go a long way to silencing your inner bigot. Maybe read the Bible, paying attention to the parts where they discuss empathy and acceptance?

I've read it.

https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-5.htm

Deuteronomy 22:5 - "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."

https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/23-1.htm

Deuteronomy 23:1 - "No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord."

https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

[stack]

My intuition tells me no and I think humanizing them would go a long way to silencing your inner bigot. Maybe read the Bible, paying attention to the parts where they discuss empathy and acceptance?

I've read it.

https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-5.htm

Deuteronomy 22:5 - "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."

https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/23-1.htm

Deuteronomy 23:1 - "No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord."

https://biblehub.com/leviticus/20-13.htm

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

I don't think those are the "empathy and acceptance" parts of the bible one should pay attention to that Rama was referring to.

I had no idea the bible had a thing about crossdressing. Are the Scots godless with their kilts?

[AATW]

I presume Tom doesn't wear clothes with mixed fabrics or approve of farmers who mix their crops either...

https://biblehub.com/leviticus/19-19.htm