[Dr David Thork]

They're being denied the right to live as the gender they identify with.

And they were denied that by God. It's the way they were made. Not cruel men subjecting them to it. Letting a donkey live in a paddock with a bunch of racehorses, doesn't make it a racehorse. I don't care how the donkey identifies. It isn't going to win the 15:15 at Chepstow.

Also ... why is living the gender you identify as, suddenly an inalienable right? Sounds pretty entitled to me. Especially as you impose yourself on everyone else, policing their speech and invading their changing rooms just so you can maintain a fantasy in your head.

Regardless of whether or not you want to call it a mental illness, it's a very real phenomenon that affects millions of people. And I don't believe that there's any risk to "security and privacy" from women accidentally catching a glimpse of male genitals. If you're making a new argument about predatory transwomen seeking access to women-only spaces for nefarious reasons, you're going to need to back that up with something other than your own intuition, because all evidence suggests that it quite simply doesn't happen.

Women are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?

[WTF_Seriously]

Regardless of whether or not you want to call it a mental illness, it's a very real phenomenon that affects millions of people. And I don't believe that there's any risk to "security and privacy" from women accidentally catching a glimpse of male genitals. If you're making a new argument about predatory transwomen seeking access to women-only spaces for nefarious reasons, you're going to need to back that up with something other than your own intuition, because all evidence suggests that it quite simply doesn't happen.

Women are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?

The future is now.......https://matadornetwork.com/read/transparent-outdoor-toilets-tokyo/

[Fortuna]

Regardless of whether or not you want to call it a mental illness, it's a very real phenomenon that affects millions of people. And I don't believe that there's any risk to "security and privacy" from women accidentally catching a glimpse of male genitals. If you're making a new argument about predatory transwomen seeking access to women-only spaces for nefarious reasons, you're going to need to back that up with something other than your own intuition, because all evidence suggests that it quite simply doesn't happen.

Women are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?

The future is now.......https://matadornetwork.com/read/transparent-outdoor-toilets-tokyo/

Not quite yet, unfortunately.

Once the door is locked, the glass outer walls turn opaque, so no one can see through

[honk]

And they were denied that by God. It's the way they were made. Not cruel men subjecting them to it.

There's nothing we can do about the way they were made, but we can do something about their continued treatment by society.

Also ... why is living the gender you identify as, suddenly an inalienable right?

Because being forced to live as the gender you don't identify as is an extremely traumatic and confusing way to go through life. It's easy for most people to take it for granted that the way you walk, talk, dress, socialize, etc. is exactly how society expects you to do it, but what if it wasn't? Imagine - and please don't dodge this by talking about how it can't happen or shouldn't happen or if it did then it would be everyone else's problem and not yours - that tomorrow everyone started treating you like a woman. You'd be expected to dress like a woman, talk like a woman, be romantically interested in men, etc., and you'd get funny looks and be treated like a weirdo when you instead engaged in your usual male behaviors. Wouldn't that fuck you up? Nobody should have to deal with that.

Sounds pretty entitled to me. Especially as you impose yourself on everyone else, policing their speech

You are not being oppressed by having to refer to people by the name they want and as the gender they want. It's just basic courtesy, something that you're already very familiar with through life in modern society.

invading their changing rooms just so you can maintain a fantasy in your head...[women] are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?

The comfort of the trans community is about whether or not they're allowed to live their life as a member of the gender they identify with, something of life-altering consequences to them. The comfort of the complaining women is apparently based on a) paranoid fears of predators waiting to be allowed access to women's spaces so they can victimize the women within, which doesn't even make any logical sense to begin with, and b) absurdly prudish fears of accidentally catching a glimpse of a transwoman's genitals. That's why the trans community's comfort trumps the complainers' comfort - because they have a sound reason to be allowed into women's spaces, while the complainers have nonsensical reasons to not allow them there.

[Dr David Thork]

There's nothing we can do about the way they were made, but we can do something about their continued treatment by society.

Agreed. They should be treated like patients. Given therapy. You don't give an anorexic a diet. You shouldn't give a gender dysmorphia sufferer hormones and a prosthetic vagina.

Also ... why is living the gender you identify as, suddenly an inalienable right?

Because being forced to live as the gender you don't identify as is an extremely traumatic and confusing way to go through life.

And the way to unconfuse them is to agree with their conclusion that they are the sex that they are not? That's not helping with the confusion.

It's easy for most people to take it for granted that the way you walk, talk, dress, socialize, etc. is exactly how society expects you to do it, but what if it wasn't? Imagine - and please don't dodge this by talking about how it can't happen or shouldn't happen or if it did then it would be everyone else's problem and not yours - that tomorrow everyone started treating you like a woman. You'd be expected to dress like a woman,

Wouldn't care because all the other men are wearing dresses too. That's the norm. A dress would be considered men's clothing. That is a silly argument. For most of history men wore tunics ... little dresses with a rope around the waist.

talk like a woman,

If you are a man, you already have a mans' voice. Even if you are Joe Pasquale, life goes on just fine.

be romantically interested in men, etc.,

You can be gay. No one is stopping you from being gay. These days, its actually encouraged. Celebrated. You are told how brave you are, and in many industries, promoted to jobs you have no business doing.

and you'd get funny looks and be treated like a weirdo when you instead engaged in your usual male behaviours. Wouldn't that fuck you up? Nobody should have to deal with that.

Behaviours are learned. I have a friend acquaintance who was straight. For 30 something years he was a very normal guy. Within 12 months of deciding to be gay, he became a flaming homosexual. He's got the nasally gay voice, the limp wrist, he minces when he walks and he now jumps up and down clapping his hands when he is excited ... its revolting. But no one is stopping him. Like all gays, he obviously forces this behaviour. Its possible to just act like a guy.
There are two big fat lesbians who live a few doors down from me who live just like guys. Shaved heads, tattoos, jeans showing their butt cracks and when I walk past on the way to the shop or something, if they are mowing the lawn they will say "alright mate?". Not a very female way to address someone. They get a "fine thanks" rather than the customary tip of the hat and a "great to be alive, ladies". Anyhoo, they learned how to scratch their arses and swear like sailors. They could have chosen to be feminine dykes. They didn't. 

You are not being oppressed by having to refer to people by the name they want and as the gender they want. It's just basic courtesy, something that you're already very familiar with through life in modern society.

Of course it is oppression.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/christian-doctor-trans-woman-sacked-gender-pronouns-universal-credit-a8999176.html
That is oppression. "Hey doctor, I know you have decades of medical experience but I'm a woman and you are wrong. Don't agree? Welp, let's take your livelihood from you". It is absolutely oppression. Think like me or be punished is oppression, Honk. 
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/02/us/virginia-teacher-says-wrongfully-fired-student-wrong-pronouns-trnd/index.html

The comfort of the trans community is about whether or not they're allowed to live their life as a member of the gender they identify with, something of life-altering consequences to them. The comfort of the complaining women is apparently based on a) paranoid fears of predators waiting to be allowed access to women's spaces so they can victimize the women within, which doesn't even make any logical sense to begin with, and b) absurdly prudish fears of accidentally catching a glimpse of a transwoman's genitals. That's why the trans community's comfort trumps the complainers' comfort - because they have a sound reason to be allowed into women's spaces, while the complainers have nonsensical reasons to not allow them there.

So women having 'irrational fears' of naked men around them when they are changing is bad, but men having irrational beliefs that they are women needs to be upheld. You are all kinds of fucked up.

And they are not a community. There is no village of transgenders. They are patients who are being failed by modern day pseudoscience that they are born in the wrong body. They aren't. They are born in their own body ... but they have mental problems.

[Action80]

And they were denied that by God. It's the way they were made. Not cruel men subjecting them to it.

There's nothing we can do about the way they were made, but we can do something about their continued treatment by society.

Also ... why is living the gender you identify as, suddenly an inalienable right?

Because being forced to live as the gender you don't identify as is an extremely traumatic and confusing way to go through life. It's easy for most people to take it for granted that the way you walk, talk, dress, socialize, etc. is exactly how society expects you to do it, but what if it wasn't? Imagine - and please don't dodge this by talking about how it can't happen or shouldn't happen or if it did then it would be everyone else's problem and not yours - that tomorrow everyone started treating you like a woman. You'd be expected to dress like a woman, talk like a woman, be romantically interested in men, etc., and you'd get funny looks and be treated like a weirdo when you instead engaged in your usual male behaviors. Wouldn't that fuck you up? Nobody should have to deal with that.

Sounds pretty entitled to me. Especially as you impose yourself on everyone else, policing their speech

You are not being oppressed by having to refer to people by the name they want and as the gender they want. It's just basic courtesy, something that you're already very familiar with through life in modern society.

invading their changing rooms just so you can maintain a fantasy in your head...[women] are uncomfortable with it. We know this because they complain about it. Why does the comfort of a mentally ill man trump that of perfectly sane women?

The comfort of the trans community is about whether or not they're allowed to live their life as a member of the gender they identify with, something of life-altering consequences to them. The comfort of the complaining women is apparently based on a) paranoid fears of predators waiting to be allowed access to women's spaces so they can victimize the women within, which doesn't even make any logical sense to begin with, and b) absurdly prudish fears of accidentally catching a glimpse of a transwoman's genitals. That's why the trans community's comfort trumps the complainers' comfort - because they have a sound reason to be allowed into women's spaces, while the complainers have nonsensical reasons to not allow them there.

I think the marvelously talented and sharp transgendered people should team up, form their own businesses and bathroom stalls specifically marked TRANSGENDER ONLY.

Funny, years of working toward eliminating issues of sex and gender from government and corporate employment through legislation, now to only have it become something we absolutely need to focus on in order to get along.

[Rushy]

Transgenderism fundamentally doesn't make sense. A man who looks a lot like a woman and dresses like one is called a trap and traps are gay.

A man is a male human.

A woman is a female human.

People who are neither male or female are not man or woman. The transgenderism movement is just elites finding out how much they can gaslight modern society.

[Rama Set]

Hot takes have landed.

[garygreen]

Hot takes have landed.

i can't wait until all the "omg but you have to do what your genes say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111222222223333333" people find out about eyeglasses.

[AATW]

Hot takes have landed.

i can't wait until all the "omg but you have to do what your genes say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111222222223333333" people find out about eyeglasses.

Is that really equivalent?!

[garygreen]

if you're a genetic essentialist, i don't see how it's deniable. how is "your genes say you are a boy so you have to be a boy" qualitatively different than "your genes say you are nearsighted so you have to be nearsighted."

our genes encode many things that humans choose to resist/alter/deny/compensate for/whatever. you're welcome to draw an arbitrary line in the sand about which encodings you think are acceptable to resist, i guess. have at it.

[Rushy]

Hot takes have landed.

i can't wait until all the "omg but you have to do what your genes say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111222222223333333" people find out about eyeglasses.

if you're a genetic essentialist, i don't see how it's deniable.

You're going to have to go into more detail about this, since it's not immediately apparent what your point is. I presume this is intentional and definitely a passive aggressive form of dodging the debate entirely; something that's quite endemic to the transgender movement in general.

[xasop]

I think a large part of the confusion — willing as it may be on the part of some — arises from the fact that "male" and "female" are terms used to describe both sex and gender. So, let's refer to gender as "blue" and "orange" instead, and see what difference that makes.

There is a correlation between being male and being blue, just as males tend to be taller and stronger than women. But as in all things, there are exceptions. Some men are orange, and some women are blue, because your blueness/orangeness is not defined by your sex. Having a Y chromosome doesn't make you blue, and lacking one doesn't make you orange.

The problem arises when there is a social expectation for all men to be blue, and all women to be orange. This is so deeply ingrained into our society that we have begun to refer to blueness as "masculinity" and orangeness as "femininity", and we tell anyone who diverges from this arbitrary rule that they are wrong about themselves.

Can you understand why blue women might be unhappy about being forced to act orange all the time?

[Rushy]

I think a large part of the confusion — willing as it may be on the part of some — arises from the fact that "male" and "female" are terms used to describe both sex and gender. So, let's refer to gender "blue" and "orange" instead, and see what difference that makes.

There is a correlation between being male and being blue, just as males tend to be taller and stronger than women. But as in all things, there are exceptions. Some men are orange, and some women are blue, because your blueness/orangeness is not defined by your sex. Having a Y chromosome doesn't make you blue, and lacking one doesn't make you orange.

The problem arises when there is a social expectation for all males to be blue, and all women to be orange. This is so deeply ingrained into our society that we have begun to refer to blueness as "masculinity" and orangeness as "femininity", and we tell anyone who diverges from this arbitrary rule that they are wrong about themselves.

Can you understand why blue women might be unhappy about being forced to act orange all the time?

Blue women aren't forced to act orange all the time. We already have terms for women that take up traditional masculine roles: tomboys. We don't literally refer to them as men, because they aren't. "man" and "woman" are not gender roles. If anything, the transgenderism movement is a toxic reinforcement of gender roles, not a denial of them.

[xasop]

Blue women aren't forced to act orange all the time. We already have terms for women that take up traditional masculine roles: tomboys. We don't literally refer to them as men, because they aren't. "man" and "woman" are not gender roles.

Not quite. A "tomboy" will still be told that they can't be with men in gender-segregated facilities, and people will usually insist on using the pronoun "she". Although they may be accepted by their friends, there is constant reinforcement everywhere they go that their identity is wrong, or at the very least abnormal. Are you capable of placing yourself in someone else's position for a moment and trying to imagine what this would be like?

If anything, the transgenderism movement is a toxic reinforcement of gender roles, not a denial of them.

I agree, to an extent — I think the correct solution is to simply let everyone be however they want, with no arbitrary expecations based on their genitals. But we live in an imperfect world, and transgenderism is an imperfect solution that makes people happier in the world.

[Rushy]

Not quite. A "tomboy" will still be told that they can't be with men in gender-segregated facilities

That's because she is not a man.

, and people will usually insist on using the pronoun "she".

Because she isn't a man. The pronoun "she" does not refer to a role, it refers to an object (a female human). We're not at the point technologically where people switch their genetics around to other sexes.

Although they may be accepted by their friends, there is constant reinforcement everywhere they go that their identity is wrong, or at the very least abnormal. Are you capable of placing yourself in someone else's position for a moment and trying to imagine what this would be like?

You can't identify as something else and expect others to bend reality around you. This is back to the old "I'm an attack helicopter!" meme. You're no longer talking about gender roles, rendering your original point moot.

I agree, to an extent — I think the correct solution is to simply let everyone be however they want, with no arbitrary expecations based on their genitals. But we live in an imperfect world, and transgenderism is an imperfect solution that makes people happier in the world.

If the argument is that gender roles shouldn't exist, then the transgender movement is going the wrong way to attack it. The problem is that I believe you are confused, the transgender movement is not an inherent problem with gender roles, it's a problem with biological ones. That's why they're attacking the words "man" and "woman". Not the roles they represent.

[xasop]

That's because she is not a man.

Well, yes and no. This is the problem we have created for ourselves by making "man" refer to both sex and gender. Insisting that we don't have that problem won't make it go away.

Because she isn't a man. The pronoun "she" does not refer to a role, it refers to an object (a female human).

This is a common misconception among monolinguals who assume that the English language developed the way they think about it. A millennium ago, a dog would have been "he" and a mouse would have been "she", because those are the genders of the nouns "hound" and "mouse". Our pronoun system is not based on biological sex, it is a relic of a time when we assigned arbitrary genders to everything. Now we only assign arbitrary genders to humans, and people are beginning to confuse that with an inherent trait.

Languages without grammatical gender, and which never had it, usually do not have separate pronouns for "he" and "she". This is not a fundamental distinction we need to make, it is a feature of the language you happen to speak.

You can't identify as something else and expect others to bend reality around you. This is back to the old "I'm an attack helicopter!" meme. You're no longer talking about gender roles, rendering your original point moot.

I am talking about gender roles. Most gender segregation in modern society is based on gender, not biological sex. But there are exceptions, which is what the topic of this thread should be. I am trying to get us past the "transgenderism literally doesn't exist" diversion so we can talk about the actual topic.

If the argument is that gender roles shouldn't exist, then the transgender movement is going the wrong way to attack it.

And making millions of people happier in the process. Are you going to put ideological purity over people leading happy, fulfilling lives?

The problem is that I believe you are confused, the transgender movement is not an inherent problem with gender roles, it's a problem with biological ones. That's why they're attacking the words "man" and "woman". Not the roles they represent.

"They're attacking the words, not what we mean by them" is a new level of doublethink, even for you.

[Fortuna]

Hot takes have landed.

The idea of conforming to your born sex, which has been the norm since human civilization started, is now considered a 'hot take' by the pseuds.

[Rama Set]

Hot takes have landed.

The idea of conforming to your born sex, which has been the norm since human civilization started, is now considered a 'hot take' by the pseuds.

If that was what I meant, your comment would be relevant.

[rooster]

"But we have to protect natural born female athletes!" 🙄

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31749541/namibia-female-runners-banned-olympic-400-meters-high-testosterone-levels