[Dr David Thork]

Incidentally, Fallon Fox has a professional loss since transitioning.

So what? I could become an MMA fighter. I wouldn't beat all the women. But ... with the right training and more experience I'd get better and become ultimately more dangerous. Fallon's last fight the poor woman needed 7 staples in her skull afterwards. He/she never fought again. I guess he realised how vile his/her/its actions were + I doubt there was a queue of women wanting their skull beaten in.

[Rama Set]

It’s an anecdote that isn’t representative of the issue.

[Lord Dave]

Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.

Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.

No, you are committing a fallacy. You are only comparing one of the best females against all "non-elite males." You need to compare all elite-females against all non-elite males.

Actually I'm comparing 1 Ultra-Elite Female to a non-elite male since that was Action's claim that the female would be beaten "quite soundly".  Which I have demonstrated to be false. 
I also do not have a list of all Elite-famale runners vs all Non-Elite-Male runners.  So I can't do that work.  Especially since "elite" and "non-elite" are undefined terms.  Like I would say I'm a non-elite.
I might be able to do the 100 meter dash in 20 seconds.  Might.  Should I be added into that pool?

Also:

There are hundreds of male elite athletes faster than her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier

And here are a high school senior and a high school junior doing 100 meters in under 10 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLRzlo173A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZm3xlMw9us

I'd call those elite athletes.  And since I did not claim, nor refute the claim when it was made, that male athletes have a slight advantage (10-12% seems about right) given identical training, as female athletes, I'm not sure what your point is.

I'm just refuting the "Ultra-Elite Females get soundly beat by non-elite males" statement.

Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.

Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.

Are you arguing that 'ex-men' should be able to compete with women?

I'd like to use the example of Fallon Fox.

Fallon Fox was a dude. A dude who decided to hide behind gender apologists and compete in women's MMA.
Behold the headline.
https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/

Everything happened in the first round and in the first two and a half minutes. It was messy, it was bloody and it’s not easy viewing for everybody. Tamika suffered a concussion and a broken skull and Fallon Fox wasn’t stopping until Tamika Brents was finally TKO’d.

Now it isn't easy viewing, because there aren't many people who would actively watch a man take a woman's face apart in a brutal assault and call it entertainment.

The defeated woman, who by-the-way was an extremely accomplished fighter in her own right said after the fight

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right… I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isn’t fair.”

It is very very easy to sort this mess out. The women's competitions are a handicapped event. The handicap being, they don't have a y-chromosome. If you lack a y-chromosome, you can compete in the womens. But it you are xy or more uncommonly xxy or xyy or xxyy or any other combination with a y in it ... you can't compete in the women's because every cell in your body is male. And no amount of chopping off your genitalia, taking hormones and stuffing silicon in your chest is going to change that.

No one is stopping you neutering yourself and getting an office job or working in a factory. But you shouldn't be allowed to compete with women in sports.

We should also look at 'ex-men' competing at colleges and actively winning scholarships. They are taking places of women.


And if you are in any doubt as to the difference between men and women and thinking ... meh, women are only a second slower at 100m, maybe its not that big of a deal ... watch the video below. It is the weird event of mixed 100m relay. For reasons I don't fully understand, Jamaica decide to make their two men run first ... against everyone else's women. Have a look at the difference between Asafa Powell vs 5 of the fastest women in the world. Then decide if you chopped off Powell's enormous dick, if that would slow him down enough to make this a fair race (Give him time to heal. I don't mean chop it off 2 mins before the start).



That Powell race looks a lot like this college race ... spot the dude.

This is actually a bad argument.  Why?  Because the skull is not gender specific.  A man's skull is just as tough as a woman's skull.  Therefore, Fallon could have done that to anyone.
Also, reading up:
Did you know the orbital socket is part of the skull?
Having your "skull" broken also means bits where it's weak, like around the eyes.  And this is a common enough injury in the MMA circuit.  The 7 staples, btw, are for the skin, not the bone.  Like stiches.

Also:
Ashlee Evans-Smith kicked Fox's ass. 

[rooster]

The debate around Fallon Fox is a bit different. Some doctors think because her transition happened later in life that she already had the musculature and skeletal advantage of living so long as a man. But as Dave pointed out:

Ashlee Evans-Smith kicked Fox's ass.

But we're talking specifically about highschool and college kids with these laws. The International Olympic Committee changed its regulations in 2004, allowing transgender athletes to compete two years after sex reassignment surgery. I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.

[crutonius]

The debate around Fallon Fox is a bit different. Some doctors think because her transition happened later in life that she already had the musculature and skeletal advantage of living so long as a man. But as Dave pointed out:

Ashlee Evans-Smith kicked Fox's ass.

But we're talking specifically about highschool and college kids with these laws. The International Olympic Committee changed its regulations in 2004, allowing transgender athletes to compete two years after sex reassignment surgery. I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.

I feel this point is worth emphasis.  K-12 sports are really a trivial thing compared to the struggles that transgendered kids must endure. 

Professional sports are probably a different discussion. 

[Dr David Thork]

I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.

Well how about we get schools girls running against greyhounds? Or racehorses? Young racehorses of course. I mean, we wouldn't want them to have an age advantage. A genetic advantage such as 4 legs or a Y-chromosome, no problem though. 

Why do boys ... have to compete at all after surgery? Why can't they take up art? Or singing? Why is it they have to pick something where being 6 inches taller, having bigger hands, wider shoulders, narrower hips etc is an advantage?

And also, who knows their own sexuality before puberty? It should be utterly illegal to prevent a person going through puberty and mucking about with their development whilst they are children. You do not know your own mind as a child and should not be able to consent. If you can't consent to sex until you are 16/17, why is it you can consent to being castrated and filled with hormones at the age of 10? That's some pretty fucked up liberal logic right there.

Because the skull is not gender specific.  A man's skull is just as tough as a woman's skull.

Demonstrably false.

[Rama Set]

I don't see why kids, who have transitioned during or before puberty and have the estrogen levels of other girls can't compete in sports with other girls.

Well how about we get schools girls running against greyhounds? Or racehorses? Young racehorses of course. I mean, we wouldn't want them to have an age advantage. A genetic advantage such as 4 legs or a Y-chromosome, no problem though. 

And the arguments get sillier and sillier.

Why do boys ... have to compete at all after surgery? Why can't they take up art? Or singing? Why is it they have to pick something where being 6 inches taller, having bigger hands, wider shoulders, narrower hips etc is an advantage?

They don’t. They can. They can. They don’t have to.

And also, who knows their own sexuality before puberty? It should be utterly illegal to prevent a person going through puberty and mucking about with their development whilst they are children. You do not know your own mind as a child and should not be able to consent. If you can't consent to sex until you are 16/17, why is it you can consent to being castrated and filled with hormones at the age of 10? That's some pretty fucked up liberal logic right there.

Some children do know, some don’t. There is always extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment.

[Dr David Thork]

Some children do know, some don’t. There is always extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment.

Maybe there are children out there that know if they want sex or not. Perhaps if one could get a doctor with an agenda to give the child extensive therapy, the child will be able to have sex with adults. Possibly for money.  I mean, all things are possible with therapy and a liberal agenda.

Also ... sexual reassignment? You make it sound like they can change your sex. That is a lie. If you are a boy, there is no way you are ever giving birth. They can't "reassign" you a new sex. You're not getting a womb any time soon. You know ... to make you a womb-man or woman as we call them.

What you will get instead, is probably best described as malpractice.


Also, I don't know what you consider 'extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment' but in the UK that extensive therapy amounts to just 3 hours of consultation.

She was referred to the Tavistock GIDS clinic at the age of 16. She said after three one-hour-long appointments she was prescribed puberty blockers, which delay the development of signs of puberty, like periods or facial hair.

She felt there wasn't enough investigation or therapy before she reached that stage.

^This isn't about the best possible health outcomes for patients. It is ideologically driven left wing politics taken to its inevitable conclusion where it gets to ruin people's lives.

[Rushy]

This isn't about the best possible health outcomes for patients. It is ideologically driven left wing politics taken to its inevitable conclusion where it gets to ruin people's lives.

It is in part driven by the medical industry as sexual reassignment surgery is quite expensive and constitutes a lifelong addiction to drugs for the end user. Even left wing politics don't really care for it, rather this is Big Pharma smelling room for fiscal growth. You'll also notice that "Pride Month" is simply a targeted ad campaign and not politically relevant.

[Rama Set]

Some children do know, some don’t. There is always extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment.

Maybe there are children out there that know if they want sex or not. Perhaps if one could get a doctor with an agenda to give the child extensive therapy, the child will be able to have sex with adults. Possibly for money.  I mean, all things are possible with therapy and a liberal agenda.

I know change is scary for you.

Also ... sexual reassignment? You make it sound like they can change your sex. That is a lie. If you are a boy, there is no way you are ever giving birth. They can't "reassign" you a new sex. You're not getting a womb any time soon. You know ... to make you a womb-man or woman as we call them.

Did you know... Did you know... That women aren’t all capable giving birth?

What you will get instead, is probably best described as malpractice.

Thanks for your professional opinion.

Also, I don't know what you consider 'extensive therapy ahead of any sexual reassignment' but in the UK that extensive therapy amounts to just 3 hours of consultation.

She was referred to the Tavistock GIDS clinic at the age of 16. She said after three one-hour-long appointments she was prescribed puberty blockers, which delay the development of signs of puberty, like periods or facial hair.

She felt there wasn't enough investigation or therapy before she reached that stage.

^This isn't about the best possible health outcomes for patients. It is ideologically driven left wing politics taken to its inevitable conclusion where it gets to ruin people's lives.

I don’t know what you consider sexual reassignment, but puberty blockers aren’t it.

[honk]

So I’ve just decided that I identify as a woman so can I go into the women’s locker rooms now? What do you mean no? Don’t you oppress me.

It's interesting how skeptics always seem to take it for granted that support for trans rights goes hand in hand with a credulous acceptance of anyone acting in bad faith as long as they say the magic words. I have absolutely no problem with using some common sense when allowing claimed transwomen into women's spaces. Saying "I identify as a woman" doesn't make you trans, and neither does wearing a wig and a dress.

I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.

You can call it whatever you want, but the phenomenon is very real. There are millions of people who feel the way they do, and they're not going to just "snap out of it" or go away no matter how certain you are that scientifically they shouldn't exist. We can either treat them with compassion or continue to marginalize and isolate them, and I feel that making appeals to scientific accuracy is a very poor justification for the latter, especially when the burden placed on society and individuals for "pandering" to them is such a trivial one.

It should be utterly illegal to prevent a person going through puberty and mucking about with their development whilst they are children. You do not know your own mind as a child and should not be able to consent. If you can't consent to sex until you are 16/17, why is it you can consent to being castrated and filled with hormones at the age of 10? That's some pretty fucked up liberal logic right there.

This does not happen. If there's one piece of misinformation above all that needs to be corrected, it's this. Children who believe they may be transgender are not given life-altering surgeries or chemical treatments. At most, they receive puberty blockers in their adolescence to delay - not permanently prevent, but delay - the effects of puberty until they're old enough to make a decision about how they want to live their life. It's not always perfect. I feel awful for the woman in the article you linked, but she was seventeen when she began taking male hormones, and twenty when she had her breasts removed. She wasn't a brainwashed child. Wherever there are major medical procedures, there will be people who undergo them and later regret doing so. I don't think that's an effective argument for getting rid of them altogether.

Also, here is a good article that details much of the science behind all this, as well as the rules and procedures for treating trans youth. A lot of this is admittedly specific to America, but I would be astonished if things were especially different in any other Western nation.

[Rushy]

You can call it whatever you want, but the phenomenon is very real. There are millions of people who feel the way they do, and they're not going to just "snap out of it" or go away no matter how certain you are that scientifically they shouldn't exist. We can either treat them with compassion or continue to marginalize and isolate them, and I feel that making appeals to scientific accuracy is a very poor justification for the latter, especially when the burden placed on society and individuals for "pandering" to them is such a trivial one.

This argument hinges on making compassionate treatment and bending to delusion equivalent. Schizophrenic patients are treated with compassion and medication but at no point is other parts of society expected to bend to their schizophrenic beliefs. We do not recognize them as messiahs or take their remarks on aliens or the CIA seriously. Why then, must delusions from supposedly 'transexual' people be treated with such gravity? If a man believes he is a woman or if a woman believes she is a man, then he or she is mentally disordered. The treatment is not and should never be to just play into their pretending. No other mental disorder is treated by playing into the patient's delusions, why is this one any different?

[Rama Set]

We treat schizophrenics medically to deal with their issues. In your medical expertise what medical approach should be used to treat transexuals? The same as schizophrenics? How did you decide what the medically appropriate treatment was? Did you find them through research and study?

[garygreen]

This argument hinges on making compassionate treatment and bending to delusion equivalent. Schizophrenic patients are treated with compassion and medication but at no point is other parts of society expected to bend to their schizophrenic beliefs. We do not recognize them as messiahs or take their remarks on aliens or the CIA seriously. Why then, must delusions from supposedly 'transexual' people be treated with such gravity? If a man believes he is a woman or if a woman believes she is a man, then he or she is mentally disordered. The treatment is not and should never be to just play into their pretending. No other mental disorder is treated by playing into the patient's delusions, why is this one any different?

this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?

[WTF_Seriously]

this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?

Kinda unrelated but we saw first hand on Jan. 6 the potential of what happens when you continually feed the fantasies of delusional people.

[Dr David Thork]

this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?

Do I have to address said schizophrenic as 'Your Highness', will that person then be treated like a King by society and will I face criminal action and get called a bigot if I refuse to bow when said schizophrenic walks past?

It doesn't matter what happens in the mind of a trans-person. What matters is what the rest of us are compelled to do about it. If I make a Tweet saying the schizophrenic isn't really a King, should that be a hate crime? Should I lose my job or be required to make a public apology for not respecting the way that Schizophrenic self-identifies?

Hey, let's do a Thork story. Its been a while.

I actually have a friend who is a schizophrenic. Its incredibly sad for him. IRL we all call him Mental [redacted] so for the sake of anonymity, we'll call him Mental Barry instead. He was diagnosed as suffering with "delusions of grandeur" and is currently banged up in a mental hospital, sectioned and on the strongest medication you can receive for such a disorder ... clozapine. You are only prescribed this if two other medications have already failed. Now, Mental Barry is a really nice guy which is just as well because he's fucking huge and I can tell you, he's never dull. He recently defrauded the government of £100,000 of disaster relief funds for covid, because Mental Barry believed himself to be the CEO of a clean energy company. You can see how much the government was checking these grants. 🙄 He then took the funds and bought 13 vans with it. He left them at his mother's house and she received an eviction notice. When his father tried to move one of the vans, his father got arrested because none of the vans were taxed or insured. Mental Barry then racked up enormous credit card debts buying ... I guess prepper type equipment is the best way to describe it. He thinks the world is going to end very soon. An example.

I was with him at Costco (I needed socks) and he saw a 12 man tent. "That's a great price" he remarked. "I'm going to buy it".
"You don't have 11 friends" I protested. It didn't matter. That tent, 3 cans of propane and a 10 litre industrial can of baked beans found their way into the trolley. Oh, and an enormous outdoor lock box which he could use 'to keep things safe'. He has 7 of these in his mother's garden already. Fortunately, he owned a huge van to get all that crap home ... you can't fault his logic.

Now I'm not sure what the flash point was to get him sectioned again in January. The time before, he was chased by a gang who damaged his van and when he complained to the police, they didn't take his complaint seriously and believe the gang existed. After he called them over 100 times, because you need to do that if you want them to help you, they had him sectioned again. But this time, I'm not sure yet. Maybe relevant, I was phoned by a guy who owned a boatyard. He'd been recommended to me to do a website, by Mental Barry. I asked how this potential client knew Mental Barry and he told me Mental Barry was trying to buy a £40,000 boat. So next time I see Mental Barry in the pub I ask him
"Barry, what's this I hear about you buying a boat?".
"Yeah, I'm going to keep it in a small village on the South coast".
"But Barry, we live 70 miles from the coast, why are you buying a boat?"
Mental Barry looked back at me, perplexed. His long curly black hair creating a fuzzy telephone receiver shaped halo around his face. His wild eyes flashed and he stroked his enormous unkempt Viking beard
"Why would you not buy a boat?"

I'm not often lost for words, but I didn't have an answer. I just looked into the bottom of my pint and wondered if one day Mental Barry might stab me to death. If he finds out that about a week before he was sectioned that I told his mother he was about to buy a boat, to which she exclaimed "He'll put us in the poor house, what am I to do?" ... maybe he will stab me.  Fortunately, at the moment he's extremely busy with a solicitor putting together a case to sue the police. I hope this solicitor works out for him because the last 6 have dropped his case.

Anyhoo, the point is, at no time am I ever expected to join in with Mental Barry's delusions. I'm not supposed to humour him, and far less am I supposed to egg him on. If one day Mental Barry turned around to me and exclaimed "No, I'm now Mental Bernadette and I'm going to have my nuts chopped off and throw shotputs for Great Britain" is it a hate crime if I use the wrong pronoun on her?

You see, Barry is the mental one. Not me. This dynamic seems to be lost on 'trans-patients' and yet somehow, the patients are the ones law makers and politicians side with. It must be a cold day in hell, because I agree with Rushy.

[honk]

You can call it whatever you want, but the phenomenon is very real. There are millions of people who feel the way they do, and they're not going to just "snap out of it" or go away no matter how certain you are that scientifically they shouldn't exist. We can either treat them with compassion or continue to marginalize and isolate them, and I feel that making appeals to scientific accuracy is a very poor justification for the latter, especially when the burden placed on society and individuals for "pandering" to them is such a trivial one.

This argument hinges on making compassionate treatment and bending to delusion equivalent. Schizophrenic patients are treated with compassion and medication but at no point is other parts of society expected to bend to their schizophrenic beliefs. We do not recognize them as messiahs or take their remarks on aliens or the CIA seriously. Why then, must delusions from supposedly 'transexual' people be treated with such gravity? If a man believes he is a woman or if a woman believes she is a man, then he or she is mentally disordered. The treatment is not and should never be to just play into their pretending. No other mental disorder is treated by playing into the patient's delusions, why is this one any different?

Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.

[Tom Bishop]

Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.

Incorrect. There is a right and a wrong. The sex of living mammals has a biological definition. If you saw that a dog with male genes and organs who enjoys being mounted as if it were a female, and claim that it makes the dog a female, then you are wrong by definition.

[rooster]

I can't believe some of you are this upset about pronouns and genitals. It's really not that complicated or difficult to just.. respect people and not worry about their lives.

Now to get away from these weird as fuck, completely unrelated tangents - no one has answered the main question of all this: if transkids have the proper estrogen or testosterone levels of their respective gender then why can't they play sports with other children of their identifying gender? What's one good reason a 16 year old girl, with standard female estrogen levels, can't play soccer with other girls?

The only people I ever see complaining about this are transphobes who are not affected by it whatsoever. If the International Olympic Committee can allow transpeople to compete in their respective sports, then why the hell would a high school be pressed about it?

[honk]

Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.

Incorrect. There is a right and a wrong. The sex of living mammals has a biological definition. If you saw that a dog with male genes and organs who enjoys being mounted as if it were a female, and claim that it makes the dog a female, then you are wrong by definition.

I'm not talking about sex; I'm talking about gender identity.