1661

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology

« on: June 14, 2018, 05:31:02 PM »

Now, the speed of sound in water is 1.5km/s.

I had to stop here.

You can't compare a flat earth distance to a round earth one. They are totally different.  Since distance is a function of velocity you need to first determine the accurate flat earth velocity.

a Round Earth distance between two points will return a Round Earth result.

A mile is 5280 feet on a Flat Earth. I don't know what it is on a Round Earth since Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system devices appear to be inaccurate.

Is the discrepancy between a round and flat distance out by a factor of 8? A round earther walks into a bar and proudly proclaims to a lady he's packing 8 inches ... and the poor old flat earther is only packing 1 inch? That kind of discrepancy is the difference between buying the lady a drink and being laughed out of the bar. Right now you are being laughed out of the bar.

1662

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology

« on: June 14, 2018, 02:19:58 PM »

In fact, seismic waves turn out to be one of the most ingenious proofs that the surface of the Earth is actually flat.

This was a most excellent answer. You win some FE Kudos points. Spend them wisely ... And now to shoot holes in it.

The discontinuities of the seismic waves assumed by modern science to occur at the crust mantle boundary are actually a network of huge caverns and large underground bodies of water and that they would match perfectly the seismic data.

Great masses of water are interpreted as molten rock.

I'd like you to look again at my graph in the OP. Specifically at the red line ... the p-wave (the one travelling through the core).

It starts at the epicentre at 11:15am. It reaches a station 165 degrees (111km per degree * 165 = 18315km on a flat earth) at 11:38am. 23 minutes later.

23mins is 1380 seconds ...

Now, the speed of sound in water is 1.5km/s.

Multiplying together (1.5*1380) I get 2070km. You are 16,000km too short. It can't be water.

However if the earth is made with liquid iron under pressure ...


I can see the speed can get up to over 9km/s (upto 11km/s if I throw some impurities like nickel and silicon in there)

Now at 11km/s for 1380 seconds I get 15180km. But you are 3000km short I hear you cry. And yes I am, but a p-wave doesn't go across the surface of the earth. It takes the direct route through the middle. The diameter of a round earth is just 12,742km. I now have 3000km in hand and that is going to cover my acceleration and deceleration times under lower pressures near the surface. Its a double-whammy win for round earth ... less distance through the earth and faster medium to travel through ... you are woefully short ... your water p-wave only made it 1/8th of the way.

As a side note, are volcanoes actually geysers on a flat earth? Beware Mr Rowbotham ... sometimes he takes you to a place you won't like, but good FE knowledge all the same.

Seismic waves travel faster north-south than east-west for a full four seconds.

I don't understand where you got these numbers but being as your P-wave is going to need almost 3 hours instead of the registered 23 mins, you can keep your 4 seconds.

"The S-wave shadow zone is larger than the P-wave shadow zones; direct S waves are not recorded in the entire region more than 103° away from the epicentre. It therefore seems that S waves do not travel through the core at all, and this is interpreted to mean that it is liquid, or at least acts like a liquid. The way P waves are refracted in the core is believed to indicate that there is a solid inner core. Although most of the earth's iron is supposed to be concentrated in the core, it is interesting to note that in the outer zones of the earth, iron levels decrease with depth.

I have 3000km in hand ... I'm ok with this. I'm still sending my wave through a solid medium (rock) so I'm gonna blow your water time away.

Seismologists sometimes draw contradictory conclusions from the same seismic data. For instance, two groups of geophysicists produced completely different pictures of the core-mantle boundary, where there are believed to be 'mountains' and 'valleys' as high or deep as 10 km. The two groups used virtually the same data but used different equations to process them. Seismologists also disagree on the rate of rotation of the inner core: some say it is rotating faster than the rest of the planet, others that it is rotating more slowly, and yet others that it rotates at the same speed!

This is all fascinating, but it isn't proving the earth is flat. Only an attempt to muddy the waters and discredit the science we have.

    It is becoming increasingly evident that the earth model presented by the reigning theory of plate tectonics is seriously flawed. The rigid lithosphere, comprising the crust and uppermost mantle, is said to be fractured into several 'plates' of varying sizes, which move over a relatively plastic layer of partly molten rock known as the asthenosphere (or low-velocity zone). The lithosphere is said to average about 70 km thick beneath oceans and to be 100 to 250 km thick beneath continents. A powerful challenge to this model is posed by seismic tomography, which shows that the oldest parts of the continents have deep roots extending to depths of 400 to 600 km, and that the asthenosphere is essentially absent beneath them. Seismic research shows that even under the oceans there is no continuous asthenosphere, only disconnected asthenospheric lenses.

A moment ago you said the earth had water under it. Now you're quibbling over the size of the crust. 70km, 600km .... does it matter in general terms when the diameter of earth is over 12,000km to my p-wave propagation?

The more we learn about the crust and uppermost mantle, the more the models presented in geological textbooks are exposed as simplistic and unrealistic. The outermost layers of the earth have a highly complex, irregular, inhomogeneous structure; they are divided by faults into a mosaic of separate, jostling blocks of different shapes and sizes, generally a few hundred kilometres across, and of varying internal structure and strength. This fact, in conjunction with the existence of deep continental roots and the absence of a global asthenosphere, means that the notion of huge rigid plates moving thousands of kilometres across the earth is simply untenable. Continents are about as mobile as a brick in a wall!

here's the source:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=68379.0

I don't see any source. All I see is a bunch of lunatics on the internet discussing it.

Are you trying to discredit the very notion of earthquakes with that last post, arguing the plates don't move, ergo there can be no earthquakes? This would be a very brave and interesting tactic, but I fear one that will bring a very rapid close to this thread and a victory for Round Earth.

1663

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Roles Reversed - seismology

« on: June 13, 2018, 06:41:53 PM »

why would the use of google be prohibited??

You can use google. It isn't going to help flat earthers though, is it?

"OK Google, how do s-waves work on a flat earth?"
See how many useful returns you get.

But for us 'round earthers' ....
"Explain s-waves"
About 165,000,000 results (1.00 seconds)

1664

Flat Earth Investigations / Roles Reversed - seismology

« on: June 13, 2018, 06:33:55 PM »

Read me
This is going to be an unusual thread. Just to mix things up, in it, the Flat Earthers on this site are going to argue the earth is round, and the round earthers have to show it is flat.

I'm going to pick a topic, make an OP ... and lets see how well all you round earthers do without google for help.
You have a 180 year old text book for help http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/index.htm
You have a wiki ... https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Flat_Earth_Wiki
You can use the site search function to find previous threads

Rules ...
You need to make a coherent argument ... you have to have a point to discuss and you need something to back your assertion ... something showing your point is valid
You need to die on that hill. If you get blown up, take it like a man and retire from the thread ... you lost
You are a team ... bail each other out and win at all costs. Don't leave a man behind
Squealing that you think the earth is round anyway so it doesn't matter is the ultimate dishonour. In this thread you think the earth is flat

This is an exercise in debating skill, problem solving and teamwork. FErs don't work alone. You don't want to be in that place either.

Depending on how much this was enjoyed, we can do it on a more regular basis with other topics but this one is about ...

The OP
It is my assertion that the earth can be shown to be round, comparing the difference between P-Waves and S-waves during an earthquake.

Both types of seismic wave can be detected near the earthquake centre but only P-waves can be detected on the other side of the Earth. This is because P-waves (primary waves) can travel through solids and liquids whereas S-waves (secondary waves) can only travel through solids. This means the liquid part of the core blocks the passage of S-waves.

On a flat earth, the s-waves should be able to travel across the plane unencumbered. But they are not registered. What happens to these s-waves and how does flat earth explain them?



Please note the shadow zones. You don't get any s-waves on the other side of the earth. There are shadow zones for p-waves, but they aren't on the other side of the earth. You'll note they tally up nicely with the sections of a round earth with mantle and core layers.

Focus on the s-waves

Absolutely no s-waves after 103 degrees. Why would s-waves abruptly stop on a flat earth?

Indeed it is using these waves that we calculate the epicentre of an earth quake, knowing the propagation times of p-waves and s-waves.


Now a real word example.

KEY
green marks show the arrival of direct P-waves
orange marks show the arrival of direct S-waves
red marks show the arrival of PP-waves (reflected at the surface)
yellow marks show the arrival of ScS-waves (reflected at the boundary with the outer core)
pink marks show the arrival of SS-waves (reflected at the surface)

Source
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/discoveringGeology/hazards/earthquakes/activities/dataFromSeveralStations.html

Note how the yellow and orange s-waves and the green primary p-waves (not reflected) both terminate at 103 degrees as predicted by the round earth model.

How does flat earth explain this phenomenon? Why are your s-waves stopping abruptly at 103 degrees on a flat earth with nothing in the way ... a flat surface right across earth? This is station data from 40 independent stations across the earth. It is no small sample set. How is it your s-waves radiate out from the epicenter exactly 11,465km and come to a dead stop, no matter where the earthquake?

I can pull this type of data from any earthquake. Always the same ... 103 degrees (round earth) or 11,456km (flat earth) from the epicenter.

*NOTE - posting this on https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/ and playing us off one against the other gets you an instant disqualification! 

1665

Flat Earth Media / Re: flatTube

« on: June 13, 2018, 12:48:01 AM »

Phase I should have been done already. This is a quick thing to do. Merge a few boards, some renaming. We just have to come to some descision.

Phase II ... I don't mind helping build the flatTube portal and then handing it over to the admin for integration and to pull out all the malicious code I put in there. I like Phase II because its a way for us to provide great flat earth content without us having to actually make any content.

Phase III ... it'll be a cold day in hell before I endorse John Davis on anything, so you'll be on your own for that one.


Lets finish phase one before we even begin phase 2. We seem to be very good at starting projects around here, delivering them is quite another matter. It would dampen down any apathy to projects from broken dreams in the past and as Tom says, hopefully free up more time for TFES lifers who aren't required to participate so heavily in the upper forums.

1666

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Garlic bread and the curve of the earth.

« on: June 12, 2018, 10:52:57 AM »

On the ground at sea level, the amount of curvature we would see is not noticeable due to the size of the earth. The horizon would be basically flat, no matter which direction you are looking.

Why would you expect to see further to your left or right than you can straight ahead?



The horizon has to curve if you can always see the same distance in every direction. This is pretty basic geometry. There is no 'basically flat'.

1667

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Garlic bread and the curve of the earth.

« on: June 12, 2018, 10:36:40 AM »

I'll make it simpler.

Imagine the earth was a flat square ... what shape is the horizon?


Something like this? With a straight horizon?

Now imagine it is a flat disc. Still got a perfectly straight horizon?


Nope.

Only a lunatic would say "the horizon bends and therefore the earth must be a ball".

Here is me looking out over the edge of a dinner plate.


Its not a ball, is it? But it has a horizon, a curved one.

1668

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Garlic bread and the curve of the earth.

« on: June 12, 2018, 10:17:17 AM »

I made this image for comparison of curvature.


Mostly this video just shows that there is curvature, we can see curvature, which goes against the core princible of flat earth 'the horizon doesn't curve'.

The only thing done to the images is changing the color levels to create lines in the gradient. This easily shows the transition and curve of the gradient (if any), and can easily be done in free image editing software, such as Paint.NET which is used here.

Of course the horizon curves. The horizon wraps around you in a large circle 360 degrees. If the horizon was dead straight you'd have to be able to see further away from you at 45 degrees than you would looking straight ahead and there would be no horizon behind you ... it would be parallel to you. Does the earth fall away at the edges? Your garlic bread doesn't convince me that it does. You want ball like curvature, not dish like curvature.

1669

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection

« on: June 12, 2018, 10:13:25 AM »

my favorite part of these flat earth maps is how latitude and longitude apparently have no real meaning and are treated as just lines on a piece of paper. 

Are you suggesting there are large blue lines painted across the ocean? Or are they just lines on a piece of paper?

1670

Flat Earth Media / Re: flatTube

« on: June 12, 2018, 09:13:47 AM »

Posters on the other site have recommended the Celebrate Truth channel. I took a look at one of their videos and the quality seemed pretty good.

Wait what? They think the government own TFES to provide bad information? I mean that might explain why Daniel is so useless and does nothing, being a civil servant and all, but even civil servants can't take 12 years off.

Apart from the obvious slam to the flat earth society, the rest of the video is good. Why take a pop at the very people who made flat earth a thing on the internet? Where's Pizzaplanet. We need to do some PR!

1671

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection

« on: June 09, 2018, 01:21:22 PM »

You clearly missed what I was trying to achieve.

I took a 200 year old sketch and tried to add some photo realism to it. That's it. That's all it is. To make it more imaginable.

1672

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection

« on: June 09, 2018, 01:16:05 PM »

What is the date and time in either of the two images above?

Also: when does the sun ever cast a perfect circle?

How about you have a go before complaining about my efforts? Only takes 10 seconds to make an objection.

1673

Flat Earth Theory / Re: [EXPLANATION NEEDED] Clouds lit from underside

« on: June 09, 2018, 12:40:55 PM »

I have no idea where that image was taken, but I assume there is a sea or a lake behind the Mountain.

When the sun is now far away from you at an angle, the light bounces off the water and up to create what you see in this image. Its not like this happens a lot and there are lots of images. You just found a unique example where it is really pronounced.


Edit ... ok, its Mount Rainer in Washington. Right by the sea which is due West of the mountain giving you the same effect over and over again at sunset.



Its always Mt Rainer.






Case closed.

1674

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection

« on: June 09, 2018, 12:20:29 PM »

Meh, someone stole it for pininterest?
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/760475087049538608/

I was trying to show the spotlight sun and the moon with a nice image ...



This is the point I gave up. Imagination was trumped by lack of MS Paint skill.

Since then people have trumped it with far better models
https://www.motionelements.com/stock-video-10004278-zoom-out-and-revolution-rotation-around-flat-earth-3d-model-satellite-map

But back in the day we only had stuff like below


I'd like to think our feeble efforts contributed to spark the imagination of those that came after and made flat earth what it is today. 
I've since retired from map and model making.

1675

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection

« on: June 09, 2018, 12:16:24 PM »

Ahhh, someone has done it.





I made the map below myself in 2011 ... I suck at making maps. Nice to see someone improved it.


To all the RErs who always moan "Why don't you lot ever make maps" ... we do! When you google search 'flat earth maps', who the hell do you think made them all? A lot of them come from THIS community.

1676

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection

« on: June 09, 2018, 12:08:47 PM »

Yes, it's true that 100 years ago many prominent FE'ers rejected the monopole model. Since then, 100 years have passed, and most of those guys are pretty dead.

Well that's a new one. An appeal to sentience. 

@David, this contradicts how we are told most flights from the US come up over the North pole on the way to Europe these days. We had a huge hoo-har some years ago about how flights could now go over the North Pole (Santa's shortcut) and how many long haul flights would be doing so. Turns out that was a fabrication.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078301/Mind-sleigh-Airlines-given-permission-fly-North-Pole-time-slashing-hours-exotic-destinations.html

Airlines tend to lie a lot to drum up interest. This week Emirates are claiming that by not having windows, their aircraft will be more rigid and be able to fly higher and faster.

The airline says it paves the way for removing all windows from future planes, making them lighter and faster.

It is clear that this is nonsense. Air liners fly in the trans-sonic range. Taking the windows out isn't going to make them supersonic. And the altitude will be the same because the engines will stay the same so their efficiency isn't going to change. A prime example of Airlines lying to make you think they are doing something to improve your service when they aren't.

I think what your image actually shows it that airlines are risk adverse and avoid wilderness. The don't fly much over the Sahara, the North or South Pole, and they take the shortest route possible over the sea in the case of both the Pacific and the Atlantic.

Another great map though. Really like it.

Can I ask you try this one if you are experimenting?
https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/2916

It is a very famous NASA Composite. Would be interesting to see a version in your 'flat earth' format. I think would be very pretty.

1677

Science & Alternative Science / Re: we are going to capitalism global warming to death

« on: June 08, 2018, 02:15:48 PM »

But salad is what food eats.

1678

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection

« on: June 08, 2018, 02:10:47 PM »

You know what I mean. The whole South is the south pole on an FE map.

1679

Technology & Information / Re: Facebook wants your naked photos

« on: June 08, 2018, 02:08:51 PM »

my mom says my littleguy is an average size.

Maybe you should have sex with other women instead?

1680

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Peirce Quincuncial Projection

« on: June 08, 2018, 12:43:34 PM »

Its the kind of map that isn't seen very often, and might therefore lend itself to T-shirts, mugs and other nice things if David wants some of his time back in the form of silver. From flat earth perspective, an alternative might be nice without the lines of longitude. IE without the working ... which can just be enjoyed from its own asthetic layout of the land masses.

David has one North Pole and 4 South Poles. Obviously for flat earth, those 4 points are actually are a single point, all joined by a circle (perimeter) with its centre at the North Pole.