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Messages - Lord Dave

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1
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: Today at 06:03:22 AM »
I don't see why this is so hard to figure out.



What about men?  Could tell them not to have sex too.

2
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 16, 2022, 12:25:45 PM »
I always love watching conservatives, who are very pro-personal liberties, defend the government telling people what they can or can't do with their bodies.

Is murder a personal liberty, Dave?
*Points to Second Amendment*
According to American: yes.

3
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 15, 2022, 06:59:51 PM »

And yes, we have largely decided as a society that you do not have ultimate authority over your body. We ban drinking and driving, for example. You do not have a right to drink whenever you want.
This is not due to putting something into your body but rather the driving while being unable to drive safely.  Kinda like driving with your eyes closed.


Quote
Having bodily autonomy does not mean any person gets to undermine the health, rights or autonomy of others.
...
Irony.

No wait, its not surprising.

Hypocracy.

4
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 15, 2022, 06:19:35 PM »
I always love watching conservatives, who are very pro-personal liberties, defend the government telling people what they can or can't do with their bodies.

When a woman is pregnant it's not just her body though. There is another entity within her. Laws already tell women that they do not have right over their body, banning abortion after xx weeks in most areas. It is incorrect that a woman has absolute right over her body.

It is also considered homicide if someone causes a woman to lose her baby at any stage of gestation in many areas. It is not merely assault.

There are laws banning you from killing bird eggs:

https://goldengateaudubon.org/conservation/make-the-city-safe-for-wildlife/tree-care-and-bird-safety/laws-protecting-birds

    FEDERAL MIGRATORY BIRD TREATY ACT:
    703. Taking, killing, or possessing migratory birds unlawful.

    “…it shall be unlawful at any time, by any means or in any manner, to pursue, hunt, take, capture, kill, attempt to take, capture, or kill, possess, offer for sale, sell, offer to barter, offer to purchase, deliver for shipment, ship, export, import, cause to be shipped, exported, or imported, deliver for transportation, transport or cause to be transported, carry or cause to be carried, or receive for shipment, transportation, carriage, or export, any migratory bird, any part, nest, or eggs of any such bird, or any product, whether or not manufactured, which consists, or is composed in whole or part, of any such bird or any part, nest, or egg thereof…”

    ...

    CALIFORNIA STATE CODE:

    3503. It is unlawful to take, possess, or needlessly destroy the nest or eggs of any bird, except as otherwise provided by this code or any regulation made pursuant thereto.

    ...

    Title 14, Chapter 1, Section 251.1. Harassment of Animals

    Except as otherwise authorized in these regulations or in the Fish and Wildlife Code, no person shall harass, herd or drive any game or non-game bird or mammal or furbearing mammal. For the purposes of this section, harass is defined as an intentional act which disrupts an animal’s normal behavior patterns, which includes, but is not limited to, breeding, feeding or sheltering. This section does not apply to a landowner or tenant who drives or herds birds or mammals for the purpose of preventing damage to private or public property, including aquaculture and agriculture crops.

    ...

    SAN FRANCISCO COUNTY MUNICIPAL CODE:
    Sec 5.08. It is unlawful to disturb birds.


So, to recap.
You are 100% in support of a government agency having legal say over a person's own body.

5
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 15, 2022, 05:49:48 PM »
I always love watching conservatives, who are very pro-personal liberties, defend the government telling people what they can or can't do with their bodies.

6
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 11, 2022, 04:29:12 AM »
Do people murder tapeworms?
Only when they lose enough weight.

7
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 10, 2022, 06:07:40 PM »
A ten day old baby is hardly conscious
Bullshit.
What a stupid comparison.
It IS bullshit.
As a parent of two, I can assure you that a 10 day old baby is very conscious, has moods and preferences.  At 10 days, however, the parents are still trying to figure out said child's patterns, what works to sooth, what doesn't, etc...

8
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 10, 2022, 10:59:45 AM »
ITT Tom ascribes will and intent to a clump of cells. I suppose if that is what you believe, then being pro-life is consistent, but it does require you to ascribe will and intent to a clump of cells.
It also requires you to oppose cancer treatment.

And bleeding.  All those red and white blood cells... Dying slowly, horribly outside of the body.  And all they want to do is transport oxygen, nutrients, and waste.  Like tiny truck drivers.

9
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 10, 2022, 10:57:56 AM »
But when does it become human? 

Conception.

Why?
What makes it a human?  What criteria do you use to define a human being?

10
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 09, 2022, 06:53:16 PM »
When is terminating a pregnancy equivalent to murdering a baby?

Always. Sometimes it's okay to kill things. I only ask that people accept they're killing them. It's like eating meat without accepting you're killing an animal or sentencing a rapist to death without admitting you're killing him.

Abortion isn't good. It's death. It's killing something that is alive. You are ending its life. When I eat a burger, I understand that I killed a cow. When I go hunting, I understand I'm putting a bullet through the heart of a deer. It's amazing how difficult it is for "pro-choice" individuals to accept that they are killing a human. I get it if you're for it. Just own it. "I want to kill humans in the womb" It's not a big deal to just admit it.

Where's the exact line where something is considered "alive"?

Is it at fertilization? Are AATW's testube contents "alive"?

Alive is easy: alive is conception.  The egg and sperm become a living cell, in so far as the definition of alive is.
But your blood cells are alive so there's that.

11
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 09, 2022, 04:01:02 PM »
Every ova and every sperm is a potential human.

No, they aren't. The combination of the two is a potential human, the two alone is nothing. You'll never make a human being with only half a working genome.

When is terminating a pregnancy equivalent to murdering a baby?

Always. Sometimes it's okay to kill things. I only ask that people accept they're killing them. It's like eating meat without accepting you're killing an animal or sentencing a rapist to death without admitting you're killing him.

Abortion isn't good. It's death. It's killing something that is alive. You are ending its life. When I eat a burger, I understand that I killed a cow. When I go hunting, I understand I'm putting a bullet through the heart of a deer. It's amazing how difficult it is for "pro-choice" individuals to accept that they are killing a human. I get it if you're for it. Just own it. "I want to kill humans in the womb" It's not a big deal to just admit it.

But when does it become human?  What makes it human vs a lump of cells that have human dna?

My heart has my DNA and is alive.  If its removed but kept alive, is it human?
What about my arm?
Blood?
How much do we need to take away from a human before its not human?
What about a severed head.  Is that a human if its kept alive?


Basically: are we killing a human, or a bunch of cells that could become a human?

12
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 07, 2022, 09:26:00 AM »
But Tom, the ruling hasn't been made yet.  Only a draft that was leaked...

Surely you know the difference, yes?

13
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 06, 2022, 07:23:35 PM »
I assume the whole left vs right on family planning was more in line with farms vs cities.  Where having more kids in a big house that's in a small town (and thus cheap to buy) wasn't as big a deal as having more kids in a 2 bedroom apartment somewhere on the outskrits of the city. 

Its simply an environment thing.  And as we know well, those who are in cities are more often Left than Right.

14
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 05, 2022, 08:58:00 PM »
In short, I'm not seeing a gumming up of the court system if you exempt for rape and incest. Nor for miscarriages in general.
Not yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it went that way eventually. If people in TX can report anyone they believe had an abortion then you're going to at least have a lot of shitty investigations into people who may have had legitimate miscarriages, which I'm sure is a lot fun.

Its a mental nightmare.  A misscarriage or hell, even an abortion, is an emotioally damaging experience.  Add on top of that some random people calling you a murdere while OTHER random people question what you did and ask you to relive it in detail.

15
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 05, 2022, 07:18:21 PM »
Solve the other problems and you greatly diminish abortion.
I do agree with this. I can't understand how the anti-abortion crowd aren't campaigning for free birth control.
Because they don't want to pay for it either. 
And some of them feel its the individual's responsibility to either have protection they purchased themselves or not have sex.  Because none of them were horny teenagers, apparently, who'd have unprotected sex if the opportunity arose.  All of them were chase, well mannered, men who never had an erection unless they fully intended to impregnate a woman.



Something that will eventually develop into a life is splitting hairs and irrelevant. Until it is a life then it does not supersede the life of the person carrying it.
You are making a distinction between when a foetus is a “life” and when it isn’t. That distinction doesn’t really exist or, at best, is a grey area which keeps changing as medicine does. I don’t think life begins at conception but I don’t think it’s clear when it becomes so.
Well, "life" began 4 billion years ago and has been around continuously since then. The question isn't when an embryo or fœtus becomes "alive", but when it qualifies as a human life.

To me, the important issue here isn't the definition of a "life", but rather the question of the mother-to-be's commitment. If the opportunity is presented to abort at, say, 5 weeks pregnancy, and the mother chooses to keep the baby, then it is unreasonable to say "I changed my mind" at 15 or 20 or 25 weeks, regardless of the state of the fœtus. Conversely, if the opportunity is not available (due to legal or circumstantial restrictions) at an early stage, then an abortion at 15 weeks may make more sense. But the decision to commit (or not) to pregnancy should be made as early as possible to avoid undue suffering on the part of the fœtus, and then once the commitment is made, it should be permanent (with obvious exceptions for life-threatening cases).

On the point about artificial wombs, I don't think that it makes sense to say that just because a zygote would eventually become a human baby, it is best to let it develop. Is bringing a child into an abusive family or an orphanage better than preventing it from ever existing? I know there are some who would say yes, but at the very least it should be clear that there are a variety of reasonable views on that question.

So, once again, we come to the issue being more complex than it first appears.

This is where I am too.  (except 5 weeks.  5 weeks is basically "I might be late...")

For the christian crowd: Does it have a soul?
For the biology crowd: Does it have consciousness?

I think we all agree that a heart, is not a human.  If I remove your heart and keep it alive, its not a human life there, beating on and on.  Its a heart, a collection of cells that, aside from genetics, has no qualities that make us human.
Animals have no rights, because they aren't human, despite being alive.
So what, then, makes us human and when does that develop?  What separates a collection of cells from a human?

16
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 05, 2022, 05:17:45 AM »
Punishing women for having sex or something, idk.
You understand there are ways of having sex without getting pregnant?
WHAT!? So you mean.. everyone who gets pregnant actually WANTS to get pregnant??

Also:
Anal sex
Oral sex
Gay sex.

17
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 04, 2022, 07:17:00 PM »
So is child services taking away your right to be a parent.

So I disagree: the governemnt doesn't force you to care for your child so much as punishes you for harming it intentionally.
Eh. We once reported that some kids were staying inside a known drug house where someone had recently died and there was rotting food, dead rats, etc. CPS knocked on the door and when no one answered they just left and never came back. Not sure the government really cares unless a school or hospital reports it.
Or your CPS sucks?  I'm sure it varies by county.

18
Technology & Information / Re: James Webb telescope launches!
« on: May 04, 2022, 07:14:54 PM »
It IS!  Its fucking amazing.

19
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 04, 2022, 06:38:18 PM »
no person has the right to force me to donate any or all of my body to sustain their life.

This simply isn't true. The government forces you to sustain various individuals you are obligated towards with your body all the time (through the demand of your labor). For example: child support and alimony. There is no difference between being forced to take care of a child inside your body versus outside of it. The idealistic trope of "bodily autonomy" simply doesn't exist outside of a purely anarchical system (and even then, there'd likely be some non-government entity forcing your body to do all sorts of things in that system as well).

Except adoption is a thing.
So is child services taking away your right to be a parent.

So I disagree: the governemnt doesn't force you to care for your child so much as punishes you for harming it intentionally.

20
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« on: May 04, 2022, 07:05:06 AM »
I raise you an Obama speech.


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02UKgnjvk2tS5AmDv43aQGRcUdbueZbeYEiveMBL2WXaE6iX8LRmBYMJdVRpjToiQCl&id=100044322825129

Stuff like this kind of glosses over the issue as it's seen by conservatives and might point to why they refuse to see it this way. Obama talks about intensely personal decisions, but to conservatives against it it's nothing less than murder, which no one would argue is something that shouldn't be against the law.

I'm not justifying it, I just think that a real dialogue about this issue needs to weigh both perspectives, otherwise it's just preaching to the respective choir.

Unfortunately the perspectives don't have equal weight.

One has "its not murder" the other is "its murder even if its a single cell.". The divide is just too great. 

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