Poll

Are you an Atheist?

Yes
13 (61.9%)
No
8 (38.1%)

Total Members Voted: 19

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Offline ElTrancy

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Atheism.
« on: May 10, 2018, 02:44:24 PM »
A lot of people have misconceptions of Atheism. Would anyone mind telling me what they think it is?
Please fucking launch a mininuke at me, I've become hopelessly lost.

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Offline junker

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 03:00:04 PM »
This is an incredibly low-effort thread.

The majority of regulars here are atheist or agnostic. They will also recognize that this is a really dumb question, so I'd be surprised if you get much response.


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Offline ElTrancy

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 03:01:55 PM »
This is an incredibly low-effort thread.

The majority of regulars here are atheist or agnostic. They will also recognize that this is a really dumb question, so I'd be surprised if you get much response.

Good point, poof, irrelevant!
Please fucking launch a mininuke at me, I've become hopelessly lost.

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Offline Crudblud

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 05:36:32 PM »
I suppose I am an atheist, although I stopped calling myself such largely to avoid being associated with new atheist morons (I much prefer being my own moron). I am interested in connecting on some level with Christianity because it has shaped so much of the history and culture of western civilisation, but I mostly read novels, so getting into histories and people like Augustine and Aquinas would perhaps take a bit of work, not to mention the KJV itself.

Misconceptions about atheism come from smug pop-sci goons like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins and the would-be enlightened who revere them. It's simply a lack of belief in a creator deity or deities, it doesn't need to be an organised movement or a merch platform. The only places that really need atheist activism today are the theocracies of the Islamic world, and even then it should be subsumed into general human rights activism.

Also junker is right as usual.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 05:38:12 PM by Crudblud »

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2018, 08:50:31 PM »
a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/
noun
noun: atheist; plural noun: atheists

    a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
    "he is a committed atheist"
    synonyms:   nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, skeptic, doubter, doubting Thomas, agnostic; nihilist
    "why is it often assumed that a man of science is probably an atheist?"
    antonyms:   believer
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2018, 09:21:21 PM »
Atheism is a lack of belief in God.  I am not an atheist.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2018, 12:01:32 PM »
An atheist is a person who hasn't experienced the numinous, and who mistakenly thinks this means it doesn't exist. ;)

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2018, 02:57:06 PM »
This atheist is a person who hasn't experienced the numinous, and therefore looks for further proof, sees none, but perceives much that indicates that deity/deities do not exist, further more if they did, would have huge misgivings about the enforced contract he is supposed to live by, not least as throughout his life hasn’t met a single acolyte who wholly agreed with any of the others, as such he lives quite happily without them/it.   
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2018, 03:17:07 PM »
Question is, where is the atheist looking?

And what is this "contract" you speak of? I've never come across one.

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Offline ElTrancy

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2018, 03:19:18 PM »
I have looked everywhere, and all the "evidence" given by those who are religious make almost no sense. If a god wanted us to believe in them, then it would probably want to start with making things super clear that is was there.
Please fucking launch a mininuke at me, I've become hopelessly lost.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2018, 03:53:10 PM »

I look amongst the flowers and stones, amongst the crawling things and the birds, I listen on the winds and the laughter of children, I watch the clouds and the stars for signs, but see none.

As for the contract, well that depends on who I am debating with, but for the standard (Christian) it goes something like.
God sends his son to die for my sins (note, committed before I was conceived), when I die what is left of me goes one of two places dependant on my life’s choices, being just good doesn’t cut it, I must worship my maker and put him above all others and in some cases atone for the aforementioned sins. Bad choices mean I go to hell and have an eternity being tortured, no time off for good behaviour.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2018, 03:58:23 PM »

I look amongst the flowers and stones, amongst the crawling things and the birds, I listen on the winds and the laughter of children, I watch the clouds and the stars for signs, but see none.

As for the contract, well that depends on who I am debating with, but for the standard (Christian) it goes something like.
God sends his son to die for my sins (note, committed before I was conceived), when I die what is left of me goes one of two places dependant on my life’s choices, being just good doesn’t cut it, I must worship my maker and put him above all others and in some cases atone for the aforementioned sins. Bad choices mean I go to hell and have an eternity being tortured, no time off for good behaviour.

The key takeaway from Christianity is that everyone sins and can be forgiven for those sins. Hell is reserved for those who actively refuse god, not simply people who sin (since that is everyone). That's why I'm agnostic, just in case.

Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2018, 05:35:42 PM »
I have looked everywhere.

How deep have you gone into your own being?

How many meditation retreats have you done? How many vision quests? Et cetera.

If a god wanted us to believe in them, then it would probably want to start with making things super clear that is was there.

So maybe the most logical answer to that is that God has no urgent desire for us to believe in them.

I look amongst the flowers and stones, amongst the crawling things and the birds, I listen on the winds and the laughter of children, I watch the clouds and the stars for signs, but see none.

Maybe you haven't looked hard enough. Or don't really want it.

As for the contract, well that depends on who I am debating with, but for the standard (Christian) it goes something like: God sends his son to die for my sins (note, committed before I was conceived), when I die what is left of me goes one of two places dependent on my life’s choices, being just good doesn’t cut it, I must worship my maker and put him above all others and in some cases atone for the aforementioned sins. Bad choices mean I go to hell and have an eternity being tortured, no time off for good behaviour.

While that's a rather simplified and shallow example of a "standard Christian" - and probably not representative of most Christians, let alone most Theists - I do understand that there are people who feel that way.

Those people are mistaken in their theology.

The key takeaway from Christianity is that everyone sins and can be forgiven for those sins. Hell is reserved for those who actively refuse god, not simply people who sin (since that is everyone). That's why I'm agnostic, just in case.

In 1999, Pope John Paul said that, "rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. To describe this reality Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language."

He's very clear: hell is not a place people go to - that is symbolism - but rather a state of being, and a state which arises from separation.

He says "separation from God", but I would go further than that. I would say, for 'connection with God' read: a connection with something greater than ourselves, or with the deepest and truest part of ourselves, or with the deepest and truest parts of others.

To paraphrase: "hell indicates the state of those who live lives separate from themselves, from others, from their own truth, and from any sense of 'Sacred Unity'; while heaven indicates the state of those who live lives connected to themselves, to others, to their own highest truth and purpose of being, and perhaps even to something larger than themselves."

We've all "felt like hell", or felt that "life is hell" at certain moments. And we've all had the experience of being aligned and connected to ourselves and our purpose; living in accordance with our noblest truths; and connecting with others, with nature, and, if we're lucky, something deep inside, that seems beyond words - and that "feels like heaven".

So hell is not so much about rejecting God, or a place we might up end after we die, but about rejecting the good things in life, and a state of being we can experience right now, if we choose.

Something like that. ;)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 05:42:21 PM by Max_Almond »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2018, 09:20:02 PM »
As for the contract, well that depends on who I am debating with, but for the standard (Christian) it goes something like: God sends his son to die for my sins (note, committed before I was conceived), when I die what is left of me goes one of two places dependent on my life’s choices, being just good doesn’t cut it, I must worship my maker and put him above all others and in some cases atone for the aforementioned sins. Bad choices mean I go to hell and have an eternity being tortured, no time off for good behaviour.

While that's a rather simplified and shallow example of a "standard Christian" - and probably not representative of most Christians, let alone most Theists - I do understand that there are people who feel that way.

Those people are mistaken in their theology.

The "No true scotman" fallacy at work.  The doctrine of original sin and the conception of hell are not really being misrepresented here.[/quote]



In 1999, Pope John Paul said that, "rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. To describe this reality Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language."

He's very clear: hell is not a place people go to - that is symbolism - but rather a state of being, and a state which arises from separation.

He says "separation from God", but I would go further than that. I would say, for 'connection with God' read: a connection with something greater than ourselves, or with the deepest and truest part of ourselves, or with the deepest and truest parts of others.

To paraphrase: "hell indicates the state of those who live lives separate from themselves, from others, from their own truth, and from any sense of 'Sacred Unity'; while heaven indicates the state of those who live lives connected to themselves, to others, to their own highest truth and purpose of being, and perhaps even to something larger than themselves."

We've all "felt like hell", or felt that "life is hell" at certain moments. And we've all had the experience of being aligned and connected to ourselves and our purpose; living in accordance with our noblest truths; and connecting with others, with nature, and, if we're lucky, something deep inside, that seems beyond words - and that "feels like heaven".

So hell is not so much about rejecting God, or a place we might up end after we die, but about rejecting the good things in life, and a state of being we can experience right now, if we choose.

Something like that. ;)

The new pope went further than that to walk back traditional presentations of hell saying that unrepentant and unforgivable souls simply vanish.  Problem with that is that these men are claiming to have a profound knowledge of the universe based simply on the cardinals voting them in.  I find using the pope as a source of metaphysical knowledge to be totally unreliable.  Is there some reason I should believe them?  When they disagree, who should we defer to?
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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2018, 09:29:33 PM »

See, there it is Max, another version, someone else with the way, visions and meditation, to find “a god who has no urgent desire for us to believe in him”, and the others are “mistaken in their theology”
He doesn't want it, I don't want it, let's call the whole thing off.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2018, 09:34:05 PM »
I find using the pope as a source of metaphysical knowledge to be totally unreliable...

Ah, but I wasn't using John Paul II as a source of metaphysical knowledge, but rather as an example and a representative of a Christian mindset.

I also read a little about where that quote from the new pope came from: apparently from a 93-year-old atheist journalist who transcribes all his interviews from memory.

I'm not saying Pope Francis didn't say that. Though he hasn't yet back it up, and the Vatican has denied he would have said something like that.

As for the "no true Scotsmen": of course some Christians belive in "original sin" and a "literal hell" where unbelievers go after they die - but not all Christians believe that. And I'd be on the side of saying that's what the minority of Christians believe. But that's just hazarding a guess.

Though, any way, the original point was about the "contract" between God and us. I said there was no such thing. It was answered that "standard Christians" felt there was. And I said they were mistaken.

I'll stand by that. :)

Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2018, 09:36:18 PM »
He doesn't want it, I don't want it, let's call the whole thing off.

Just as I guessed at above. ;)

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2018, 11:11:53 PM »
I find using the pope as a source of metaphysical knowledge to be totally unreliable...

Ah, but I wasn't using John Paul II as a source of metaphysical knowledge, but rather as an example and a representative of a Christian mindset.

Westboro Baptist’s are also representative of a Christian mindset.

Quote
I also read a little about where that quote from the new pope came from: apparently from a 93-year-old atheist journalist who transcribes all his interviews from memory.

I'm not saying Pope Francis didn't say that. Though he hasn't yet back it up, and the Vatican has denied he would have said something like that.

All I am saying is that Pope’s probably agree on some things and disagree on others, so what Pope John Paul II had to say is not particularly relevant.

Quote
As for the "no true Scotsmen": of course some Christians belive in "original sin" and a "literal hell" where unbelievers go after they die - but not all Christians believe that. And I'd be on the side of saying that's what the minority of Christians believe. But that's just hazarding a guess.

Great. A guess.

Quote
Though, any way, the original point was about the "contract" between God and us. I said there was no such thing. It was answered that "standard Christians" felt there was. And I said they were mistaken.

It’s fine for you to say there is no such thing but since you have no reasonable way of substantiating that position it isn’t worth much is it? If you go by the Bible, then it is painfully obvious that there is such a contract. The question is how much cherry-picking are you comfortable with?
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Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2018, 01:13:13 AM »
Maybe God told me there was no such thing. ;)

PS I agree with you on everything else.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2018, 09:19:22 AM »




 But that's just hazarding a guess.

Great. A guess.

Quote
And I said they were mistaken.

 If you go by the Bible, then it is painfully obvious that there is such a contract. The question is how much cherry-picking are you comfortable with?

Maybe God told me there was no such thing. ;)



And that’s the nub of it for me, seriously, when I was in my early teens I figured that if there was a god it was a bigger deal than just going to church every now and then, so I looked.

I read a great deal, talked to Christians and apart from the lack of any consensus on important (to me) things like hell, forgiveness, Hell, is the bible advice or instruction, HELL! I just found/felt nothing.

So then having been a bit put out at the injustice that our (Christian) hell was actually open to all the other religions but the heaven bit wasn’t, I looked at Eastern religions, loved the Buddhism but still nothing, long story short I then read Dawkins and Nietzsche and found my home. 
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.