Poll

Are you an Atheist?

Yes
13 (72.2%)
No
5 (27.8%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2018, 12:37:50 PM »
That's nice. :)

Question: when you "looked at Buddhism and Eastern religions" did you do much practice, or did you just read about them?

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2018, 02:09:42 PM »
So then having been a bit put out at the injustice that our (Christian) hell was actually open to all the other religions but the heaven bit wasn’t
Isn't that just another way of saying that only one religion can be right?
Which is obvious, isn't it? That's just logic.

Christians, Jews and Muslims all have contradictory beliefs about who Jesus was. They can't all be right.
They could all be wrong, but they can't all be right.

It's all nice and fuzzy to think that "well, you believe that and that's OK for you but I believe this..."
But if what you believe and I believe contradict one another then we cannot both be right. Truth isn't relative.

Jesus either was who He said He was or He wasn't,
He was either crucified or He wasn't (Muslims believe wasn't),
He was either resurrected or He wasn't (think Jews believe wasn't).
These last two are historical events which either occurred or didn't, there is nothing relative about that.

Westboro Baptist’s are also representative of a Christian mindset.

Well, they claim to be Christians so in that sense I guess you're correct.
I don't think there is any sensible understanding of Jesus' teachings which you could say they are following though.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2018, 03:04:07 PM »
Westboro Baptist’s are also representative of a Christian mindset.

Well, they claim to be Christians so in that sense I guess you're correct.
I don't think there is any sensible understanding of Jesus' teachings which you could say they are following though.

Per Jesus' instructions, they also honor the teachings of the Old Testament. Perhaps you haven't tried hard enough to understand them well enough?
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2018, 03:24:24 PM »
Westboro Baptist’s are also representative of a Christian mindset.

Well, they claim to be Christians so in that sense I guess you're correct.
I don't think there is any sensible understanding of Jesus' teachings which you could say they are following though.

Per Jesus' instructions, they also honor the teachings of the Old Testament. Perhaps you haven't tried hard enough to understand them well enough?
TL;DR...Sermon on the Mount. You have heard it said...but I tell you...
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2018, 03:46:47 PM »
It's all nice and fuzzy to think that "well, you believe that and that's OK for you but I believe this..."
But if what you believe and I believe contradict one another then we cannot both be right. Truth isn't relative..

But that is the big problem, you see god is a tricksy little bugger by all accounts, look what he did to Adam & Eve, unfair. But then in the old test’ he was all in your face helping out with the genocides and such and now he’s all silent again and you have to get mystic Max to find him.

That’s if you’re on the right track and he’s not some Polynesian deity made from coconuts sitting there chortling, “you are so fucked when the great tsunami happens”.

I’m done with it, unless he rocks up and says “this is the deal Jura” he/she/it can take a hike, I’m betting on a celestial underworld of souls that don’t want to sing for eternity but would rather play cribbage, I’ll find them. 
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2018, 01:25:15 AM »
It's all nice and fuzzy to think that "well, you believe that and that's OK for you but I believe this..."
But if what you believe and I believe contradict one another then we cannot both be right. Truth isn't relative..

But that is the big problem, you see god is a tricksy little bugger by all accounts, look what he did to Adam & Eve, unfair.
I'm failing to see how it was unfair.
Quote
But then in the old test’ he was all in your face helping out with the genocides and such and now he’s all silent again and you have to get mystic Max to find him.

That's because back then, it took an "in your face" approach to show who is the true god. Back then, Satan operated in an overt fashion where you would see things like true magic, manifestations, and supernatural powers. Today Satan operates in a covert fashion. Think about it, if the average person were to witness things that defy all known physics and science, he would most likely turn away from Satan's grasp. So since Satan doesn't work overtly, God doesn't either.
Quote
That’s if you’re on the right track and he’s not some Polynesian deity made from coconuts sitting there chortling, “you are so fucked when the great tsunami happens”.

I’m done with it, unless he rocks up and says “this is the deal Jura” he/she/it can take a hike, I’m betting on a celestial underworld of souls that don’t want to sing for eternity but would rather play cribbage, I’ll find them.

That's your decision to make.
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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2018, 09:10:15 AM »
Quote
I'm failing to see how it was unfair.

So, you make a couple with a propensity to steal fruit (you know that cos’ you’re god and you made them, right), Then you say everything but the apples (why?), and just in case they might have fought the inclination you programmed in, you allow/send a snake to make sure, then you (god) throw a hissy when surprise-surprise a Granny-Smith goes missing, unfair- rigged.

Quote
So, since Satan doesn't work overtly, God doesn't either.
Lame, more tricks, either he wants to save us, or he doesn’t, why is he letting the “bringer of light” set the rules?

Essentially the deal seems to be;

“Jura, you will jump through hoops I have set up, you will do so with a personality I have given you that rails against tyrants, I will hide and set up conflicting religions and multiple alternative expressions of the rule-book, that is itself vague and contradictory and allow a being of immense intellect and resources free reign to confuse and mislead. If by some chance you decide to put aside the obvious fact I am a megalomaniacal narcissist, I will consent to let you sing my praises for the rest of time, if not endless torture or oblivion with no chance of parole, signed your Psychopathic Magnificence.
Ps, I already know what you are going to do, I’m god, you are a rat in a maze.”

Nope, I’ll have the cribbage.   
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 09:15:39 AM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2018, 01:03:01 PM »
1. Interesting aside: it doesn't actually say what kind of fruit it was in the Garden of Eden, the idea of the apple probably comes from European paintings. More likely it was a fig (if a made-up fruit in a made-up story could be said to be "more likely" one thing or the other.)

2. Indeed, that whole Old Testament God is so weird and illogical, he's not really anyone to look up to. At the very least, one would hope that he'd be smarter and more fair than the average human. But OTG is rather a representation of what them old Jews thought way back when - so I think we can safely dismiss their ideas as being inaccurate.

3. Why would God want to save us? And what does that even mean? Much better to let people figure things out for themselves, in their own time - and to be there to lend a hand when they ask for it or are in dire need.

4. Lol at your summary of a stereotypical Judeo-Christian interpretation of God: very insane. It really is amazing people choose to buy into that, given free will and all. ;)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 03:47:01 PM by Max_Almond »

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2018, 01:56:08 PM »

Yet if you read “Guns & God” Luke above….I can only work with what I’m given.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2018, 12:56:46 AM »
Quote
I'm failing to see how it was unfair.

So, you make a couple with a propensity to steal fruit (you know that cos’ you’re god and you made them, right), Then you say everything but the apples (why?), and just in case they might have fought the inclination you programmed in, you allow/send a snake to make sure, then you (god) throw a hissy when surprise-surprise a Granny-Smith goes missing, unfair- rigged.

God made us to have free chioce. When he created Adam and Eve he didn't created them with any inclination other than the free will to choose. Before they sinned they had no knowledge of sin.
Quote
Quote
So, since Satan doesn't work overtly, God doesn't either.
Lame, more tricks, either he wants to save us, or he doesn’t, why is he letting the “bringer of light” set the rules?

Essentially the deal seems to be;

“Jura, you will jump through hoops I have set up, you will do so with a personality I have given you that rails against tyrants, I will hide and set up conflicting religions and multiple alternative expressions of the rule-book, that is itself vague and contradictory and allow a being of immense intellect and resources free reign to confuse and mislead. If by some chance you decide to put aside the obvious fact I am a megalomaniacal narcissist, I will consent to let you sing my praises for the rest of time, if not endless torture or oblivion with no chance of parole, signed your Psychopathic Magnificence.
Ps, I already know what you are going to do, I’m god, you are a rat in a maze.”

Nope, I’ll have the cribbage.   

The Bible (particularly the KJV in English) is not contradictory and while there are some things that I don't understand, most of what it is in the Bible is rather simple to follow.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2018, 02:46:54 AM »
Quote
I'm failing to see how it was unfair.

So, you make a couple with a propensity to steal fruit (you know that cos’ you’re god and you made them, right), Then you say everything but the apples (why?), and just in case they might have fought the inclination you programmed in, you allow/send a snake to make sure, then you (god) throw a hissy when surprise-surprise a Granny-Smith goes missing, unfair- rigged.

God made us to have free chioce. When he created Adam and Eve he didn't created them with any inclination other than the free will to choose. Before they sinned they had no knowledge of sin.

You’ve been through this before. If God is omniscient then there is no Free Will. They are mutually exclusive ideas.

Quote
Quote
So, since Satan doesn't work overtly, God doesn't either.
Lame, more tricks, either he wants to save us, or he doesn’t, why is he letting the “bringer of light” set the rules?

Essentially the deal seems to be;

“Jura, you will jump through hoops I have set up, you will do so with a personality I have given you that rails against tyrants, I will hide and set up conflicting religions and multiple alternative expressions of the rule-book, that is itself vague and contradictory and allow a being of immense intellect and resources free reign to confuse and mislead. If by some chance you decide to put aside the obvious fact I am a megalomaniacal narcissist, I will consent to let you sing my praises for the rest of time, if not endless torture or oblivion with no chance of parole, signed your Psychopathic Magnificence.
Ps, I already know what you are going to do, I’m god, you are a rat in a maze.”

Nope, I’ll have the cribbage.   

The Bible (particularly the KJV in English) is not contradictory and while there are some things that I don't understand, most of what it is in the Bible is rather simple to follow.
[/quote]

If it’s not contradictory then tell me, does the Bible tell you that stoning your children for disobedience is wrong or right?
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2018, 03:28:05 AM »
You’ve been through this before. If God is omniscient then there is no Free Will. They are mutually exclusive ideas.

This is a misunderstanding of omniscience. Knowing everything doesn't mean one can "pierce the veil of time" so to speak. If you read the Bible, you can clearly see that while God is capable of knowing everything that is going on simultaneously (or at least appears to do so), God cannot directly predict the future (at least in a way that is 100% accurate). If we accept that the future doesn't really exist yet, then it's easy to accept that knowing about something that doesn't exist doesn't inherently make any sense.

This is also seen in the fable of Noah's ark. God flooded the world and wreaked genocide on nearly the entire human race, saw what He had done, and then realized how terrible it was. That story really doesn't make any sense at all if God already knew how terrible it would be.


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Offline honk

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2018, 04:32:51 AM »
Free will doesn't exist in a scientific sense. If God created all our internal and external influences, then he (I'm not going to capitalize the pronouns, because that's stupid) essentially mapped out our behavior.
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Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2018, 05:42:21 AM »
Why is a discussion on atheism talking about the Bible, and in particular the old testament?

The old testament is a collection of some very old and outdated ideas of God. I think we're all pretty clear that Adam and Eve didn't literally exist, so I'm not sure how useful they can be as examples.

On contradictions:

« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 06:04:42 AM by Max_Almond »

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2018, 05:51:39 AM »
Quote
I'm failing to see how it was unfair.

So, you make a couple with a propensity to steal fruit (you know that cos’ you’re god and you made them, right), Then you say everything but the apples (why?), and just in case they might have fought the inclination you programmed in, you allow/send a snake to make sure, then you (god) throw a hissy when surprise-surprise a Granny-Smith goes missing, unfair- rigged.

God made us to have free chioce. When he created Adam and Eve he didn't created them with any inclination other than the free will to choose. Before they sinned they had no knowledge of sin.

You’ve been through this before. If God is omniscient then there is no Free Will. They are mutually exclusive ideas.

Quote
Quote
So, since Satan doesn't work overtly, God doesn't either.
Lame, more tricks, either he wants to save us, or he doesn’t, why is he letting the “bringer of light” set the rules?

Essentially the deal seems to be;

“Jura, you will jump through hoops I have set up, you will do so with a personality I have given you that rails against tyrants, I will hide and set up conflicting religions and multiple alternative expressions of the rule-book, that is itself vague and contradictory and allow a being of immense intellect and resources free reign to confuse and mislead. If by some chance you decide to put aside the obvious fact I am a megalomaniacal narcissist, I will consent to let you sing my praises for the rest of time, if not endless torture or oblivion with no chance of parole, signed your Psychopathic Magnificence.
Ps, I already know what you are going to do, I’m god, you are a rat in a maze.”

Nope, I’ll have the cribbage.   
Quote
The Bible (particularly the KJV in English) is not contradictory and while there are some things that I don't understand, most of what it is in the Bible is rather simple to follow.

If it’s not contradictory then tell me, does the Bible tell you that stoning your children for disobedience is wrong or right?

The disobedience that qualifies for stoning isn't Johnny writing on the wall with his crayon set. The disobedience is on a level that the child is constantly committing high level crimes.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

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Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2018, 11:33:55 AM »
That is absolutely your own interpretation, taking complete liberties with what is written in Deuteronomy 21:

Quote
If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Nothing in there about "high level crimes", merely: being stubborn, being rebellious, not listening, overeating, and being a drunk.

I think we all know what "stubborn" and "rebellious" look like.

Also is the implication that you must carry out the stoning so that "all Israel will hear of it" - presumably by posting a notice in a Jewish newspaper or something.

The next chapter, by the way, includes God's detestation of transvestites, the commandment to build parapets on your roofs, and instructions to not wear wool and linen at the same time - I hope you've done all them - plus what to do to people who rape virgins:

Quote
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

This is the word of the Lord. Amen.

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2018, 11:42:27 AM »
That is absolutely your own interpretation, taking complete liberties with what is written in Deuteronomy 21:

Quote
If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

Nothing in there about "high level crimes", merely: being stubborn, being rebellious, not listening, overeating, and being a drunk.

I think we all know what "stubborn" and "rebellious" look like.

Also is the implication that you must carry out the stoning so that "all Israel will hear of it" - presumably by posting a notice in a Jewish newspaper or something.

We know what "rebellious" means and looks like now, however that doesn't mean it always meant that way. We have many words that changed meanings and usage as time past.
Quote
The next chapter, by the way, includes God's detestation of transvestites, the commandment to build parapets on your roofs, and instructions to not wear wool and linen at the same time - I hope you've done all them - plus what to do to people who rape virgins:

Quote
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

This is the word of the Lord. Amen.

This is only enforceable by government. This isn't something the individual can take into his own hands.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

Scripture, science, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion. Can dumb luck create a smart brain?

Please PM me to explain sunsets.

Max_Almond

Re: Atheism.
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2018, 11:48:04 AM »
So you're saying we have to interpret these words ourselves, to figure out what they really mean?

Can't argue with that.

How do you interpret the last one: "If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin he must pay a fine to her father and marry her and never divorce her"?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2018, 12:45:57 PM »
Free will doesn't exist in a scientific sense. If God created all our internal and external influences, then he (I'm not going to capitalize the pronouns, because that's stupid) essentially mapped out our behavior.

This is unprovable, because it would require that you have two universes which are identical in order to prove that the same variables always result in the same outcome. We already know, thanks to quantum mechanics, that the universe has quite a lot of unpredictable mechanisms under the surface. There's no evidence that two people, with exactly the same biological and universal structure, would always choose the same choices, because the probability of them doing so is not 100%.

In order to argue that there is no free will, you must argue that the universe is deterministic. You can't prove that it's deterministic, so arguing that there is no free will is at best just you guessing.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 12:55:22 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Atheism.
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2018, 02:34:18 AM »
So you're saying we have to interpret these words ourselves, to figure out what they really mean?

God promised to preserve his word, not our English language. While most things stay the same, some terms and phrases have changed meaning over the years.
Quote
Can't argue with that.

How do you interpret the last one: "If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin he must pay a fine to her father and marry her and never divorce her"?

From the KJV it says:

28
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which not not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her and they be found:

29
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all of his days.


Now in context, this is right after the commandment that if a man rapes a woman in the field, and she cried out but no one heard or in the city and she cried out and nobody heard, he should be put to death. If the Bible is infallible then it wouldn't make sense to give two punishments for the same crime especially one right after the other. So if we are to assume that the Bible is infallible then the logical conclusion is that this isn't talking about the same crime. This is most likely talking about fornication, i.e. a consensual act and that "lay hold" had a different connotation than what we ascribe to it now.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

Scripture, science, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion. Can dumb luck create a smart brain?

Please PM me to explain sunsets.