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Offline Tau

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Questions for the FAQ
« on: December 15, 2013, 09:27:17 PM »
Let's do this properly, shall we? What questions should be included in the newer and more improved FAQ, apart from what's already in it?

http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline jroa

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2013, 09:38:37 PM »
Seasons
Magnetism
circumnavigation
Time zones

Maybe even lunar laser bounces

Just a few off the top of my head. 

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 10:55:49 PM »
I still think we should adopt EG's and Thork's suggestions from ages ago. Maybe we shouldn't use them verbatim, but some of this content is pretty good:

Quote
Aerospace and flying ...

Q: As a passenger on an aircraft, how is it I can see the curvature of the earth?

A: Quite simply you cannot. It is widely stated you would need to be at a height of at least 40,000 ft to get even a hint of curvature if earth were round. Commercial aircraft are not allowed to fly this high. They are only allowed to fly just under this altitude. 36,000ft might be typical.

Q: What about Concorde? That flew at 60,000 ft.

A: It did, but Concorde also had incredibly small windows as a design concession, to prevent passengers seeing enough of the horizon  and building up a picture of earth's shape for themselves. Only 6 inches across. As even that was deemed risky, Concorde has since been decommissioned.

Q: So what about flight times then? How can FEr's calculate times with the distorted map above?

A: Quite simply RErs can't do that either. There are two many variables. Performance is effected by fuel loads, ambient temperatures and pressures, engine models, the list goes on. Depending on what is happening with other traffic you might be in a hold, or routed out of your way to avoid other traffic or storms. The pilots do not fly direct to their destination either. Depending on the wind they might take off in the opposite direction to the intended route. They then fly SIDS (Standard Instrument Departures) onto a route, follow some beacons, get onto an Oceanic Highway on the way their, follow a STAR (STandard ARrival) on approach, and again go right round the back of an airport to land in the right direction. When pilots are following routes like the typical ones below, how can anyone make a simple straight line DST comparison to ascertain shape? Only the aircraft's Flight Management System really knows how far that trip is. The pilot just uses the data it provides. However FMS source code is closely guarded.

Below is a SID example. Note how the pilots fly curves and loops. They do not go direct.


Q: Well what about flying in the Southern 'Hemisphere'? Surely that would take much longer than times we have.

A: No. Pilots make use of jet-streams in both directions.
Quote
Jet streams are undulating bands of strong, high-altitude winds, associated with cold fronts. They have an average altitude of 10 km and may occasionally exceed 400 km/h. Pilots often seek out a jet stream to speed their jet planes along.
http://www.moriartey.ca/wd/wxfacts1.php

Q: What about balloon flights? I see lots of amateur videos on the internet of high altitude camera shots.

A: They do not show ball-like curvature. The horizon curves all the way around, but what do you expect? Look at the map in the geography section above. The earth is flat and round like a plate. It is this curvature you see. Not the earth falling away at the edges.

Q: How come the sun takes longer to set when flying west?

A: Again look at the FE map above. You are following the spotlight of the sun for longer, when you fly west.

Q: What about Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles? You said there was no space flight.

A: Correct. ICBMs fly just below what would be deemed space. Orbit is not possible.

Quote
Physics

Q: "What about gravity? Wouldn't a Flat Earth eventually form a sphere if gravity existed?"

A: In the Finite Earth model, the Earth does not have any gravity of its own.

Q: "But wait, why then do I see objects fall?"

A: Good question. The phenomenon that you recognize as being gravity is actually the effects of Universal Acceleration, also known as UA.

Q: "How exactly does UA work?"

A: It is quite simple. The Universe is accelerating upwards. The Earth shields us from being affected by UA directly, though we are still indirectly affected by this since the Earth is pushing us upwards.

Q: "How is that I can jump and then come back down then?"

A: This is another good question. Since the Earth is pushing you upwards, you are moving at the same speed as the Earth, much like when you are sitting in a car, the car is pushing you along. When you jump, your upward velocity is for a moment, greater than the Earth's so you rise above it. But after a few moments, the Earth eventually catches up.

Q: "But when I throw a ball, it "falls" down in a parabolic path. If what you are saying is true, wouldn't the ball be moving in a straight diagonal line?"

A: The ball indeed does move in a straight line in the direction you threw it. However, you must also remember that the Earth is moving upwards. Because of this, you eyes mistake the distance between the ball and the Earth changing for the ball moving in a curved path. For the upward part of the arc, the ball's acceleration is greater than the Earth', and for the downward part of the arc the ball's velocity acceleration is no longer greater than the Earth's and thus the Earth catches up.

Q: "It is just too hard to think that an Earth accelerating upwards will simulate the same affects that we see gravity do every day."

A: When you look at Einstein's Equivalence Principle, you will find that it is not only quite possible, but true that they will locally appear to be the same.

Q: "Oh wait! I just remembered that nothing can reach the speed of light, and if the Universe was accelerating upwards at a constant rate, wouldn't this end up happening?"

A: When you look at equations from Special Relativity, you will find this will never happen. The relevant equation is v/c = tanh (at/c). Since tanh(at/c) is always less than 1, you can never reach the speed of light.

Q: "Even if that were true, it would create a gigantic amount of energy to do so wouldn't it?"

A: Universal Acceleration requires energy to move objects no more than gravity does. In Round Earth Theory a good example of gravity constantly accelerating objects without outputting energy would be an orbit.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Scientific Method

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2013, 04:34:44 AM »
May I suggest a few?

Tides (frequency and simultaneous highs on opposite sides of the earth need to be explained)
Bedford Level (an unbiased analysis of the two most commonly cited experiments (Rowbotham and Wallace) would be good)
Sunrise/sunset (not just the physical obscuration of the sun by the horizon, but also the north/south displacement relative to where they would be expected in FET)
Navigation by sextant and chronograph (the old way to find latitude and longitude respectively, before GPS).

That's all I can think of right now, if I think of more I'll add them later.
Look out your window. Better yet, get up and go outside for a while.

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2013, 11:37:03 PM »
Its important only to answer the dumbest questions that we can't be bothered to keep answering. Not answer everything. Otherwise, no one will ask anything. :(

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 01:16:11 AM »
Circumnavigation is really important to include, as are basic questions regarding the upper limit of the Earth's speed due to UA.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 01:17:05 AM »
Circumnavigation is really important to include, as are basic questions regarding the upper limit of the Earth's speed due to UA.

Both are already included
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2013, 04:01:52 PM »
Might I suggest a slightly different format?

The FAQ is a bunch of one-liner questions. And the answer is a direct hyperlink from that question to where we store the answers which may have diagrams etc.

Then it's easy to scan down the questions to see if yours is there. You don't need to wade down 6 pages of tl;dr + we can swap questions in and out easily as we get bored of them. We'd only need to upload an answer into the wiki or wherever and then make a one-line question to it when done. The wiki lends itself to giving that info better that a forum post can.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2013, 05:35:06 PM »
Might I suggest a slightly different format?

The FAQ is a bunch of one-liner questions. And the answer is a direct hyperlink from that question to where we store the answers which may have diagrams etc.

Then it's easy to scan down the questions to see if yours is there. You don't need to wade down 6 pages of tl;dr + we can swap questions in and out easily as we get bored of them. We'd only need to upload an answer into the wiki or wherever and then make a one-line question to it when done. The wiki lends itself to giving that info better that a forum post can.

I like Thork's idea, since it was my idea a few years ago.  It was ignored then, of course.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2013, 05:41:35 PM »
I liked this idea then as well. I think it was Wilmore's fault we did it the way we did instead. I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: How does this format look (don't worry, I have the previous version saved at http://wiki.tfes.org/Saved_FAQ):

http://wiki.tfes.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions

http://wiki.tfes.org/User:Tausami/FAQ_Sandbox

(Sorry for the edit. Please see below for an explanation. ~pizaaplanet)
S'all good. I'm hardly the only person allowed to edit the FAQ ~tausami
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 09:00:53 PM by Tausami »
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2013, 08:26:52 PM »
Okay, I'm a bit worried that saying this will make me seem harsh, and I don't want it to seem that way. I really appreciate the passion and work that you put into the Wiki, but I need to ask you to learn some wiki etiquette.

Please don't replace the actual FAQ (or any page from the main linkspace) with unfinished experiments. That page is linked to from many sources, and we don't need visitors to see half the FAQ gone while we discuss what layout we should be using. I reverted your changes and chucked the draft to http://wiki.tfes.org/User:Tausami/FAQ_Sandbox. If you're doing something that is not ready to be viewed by users, please do not put it in the main space, but instead use your userpage.

Also, I don't see the merit in forcing people to visit dozens of different pages to view the entire FAQ. It makes it harder to read both for humans and search engines - we don't want either of that.  If what you want to achieve is things not looking to overwhelming the moment someone goes to the page, use collapsible elements. This is also something I'd rather avoid (The table of contents already gives you a rundown of the questions - you can already click the one you want. You're not introducing anything new.), but if people feel about this strongly, then that's the way to go.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 08:37:07 PM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2013, 08:34:26 PM »
I have to say, the longer I think about this idea, the more confused I am about what you're trying to improve. Doesn't this do what you want already?

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Offline Tau

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2013, 09:06:16 PM »
I have to say, the longer I think about this idea, the more confused I am about what you're trying to improve. Doesn't this do what you want already?



It's simply neater this way. The FAQ pages can actually have detailed explanations, with pictures and whatnot. Even with the contents thing, the page gets unwieldy quickly. While you were on your year-long vacation we played with making the original FAQ into a wiki page like this. It didn't work very well.

Also, sorry. I was rather of the impression that the wiki was rather unofficial, since we don't currently have any angry noobs whatsoever and probably won't for quite a while
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2013, 10:27:16 PM »
It's simply neater this way. The FAQ pages can actually have detailed explanations, with pictures and whatnot. Even with the contents thing, the page gets unwieldy quickly.
The FAQ is not for detailed explanations. It can contain links to more detailed explanations if those exist, but it should consist of short questions and short answers. We're definitely not splitting the FAQ itself into dozens of small pages.

While you were on your year-long vacation we played with making the original FAQ into a wiki page like this. It didn't work very well.
We did that before the wiki powergrab, by my specific request. It worked just fine until someone revamped the FAQ, and that was due to the content, not the layout.

There is no valid reason to force the users to navigate a bunch of pages to read just the FAQ. If you create such a reason, then what you've done to make it so is the problem. Not the layout.

Also, sorry. I was rather of the impression that the wiki was rather unofficial, since we don't currently have any angry noobs whatsoever and probably won't for quite a while
Not a problem, as long as we keep things tidy from now on. Part of the Wiki's purpose is to introduce people to the subject and invite them to the forum. It's linked to in our Facebook page, and some of our paid-for advertisements. Its effect is inhibited if we trash it up with personal experiments. It's also just a matter of principle, really.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 10:29:33 PM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline Tau

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2013, 10:44:26 PM »
Hmm. I have some thoughts. Ill screw with it when I get home and see what you think
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2013, 11:06:57 PM »
Here's an illustration of the collapsible elements solution I suggested, showing two possible approaches to take:

http://wiki.tfes.org/User:PizzaPlanet/FAQ_Sandbox

The [Expand] buttons are currently tucked away to the right, but that could be changed with a little code modification.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Questions for the FAQ
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2014, 12:34:53 PM »
I've improved my approach a little bit:

http://wiki.tfes.org/User:PizzaPlanet/FAQ_Sandbox

You can now click on the questions to expand/collapse them. I'm still of the opinion that having all questions in full the moment the page opens is better - the table of contents does its job well, and anyone who ever used a MediaWiki (Wikipedia, RationalWiki, Conservapedia, etc.) will already be familiar with it. But, if there is general consensus that something like this would be better (or if anyone proposes an alternative that then becomes the consensus), I wouldn't mind adopting it.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
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