Common sense?
« on: April 28, 2018, 11:43:03 AM »
So this is what I don't get. When Flat-earthers state that the shape of the earth is a disc, and that its not and never was a sphere, not only the 18,000 people working at Nasa are bold-faced lying to everyone, but the 100,000 people working in Chinas space program, The Indian space program, the Japanese space program, and Russian space program, along with every single astrophysicist, (around 430,000 people in total) are just lying to literally everyone in the world for no reason? I mean, It's honestly absurd.
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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2018, 11:51:09 AM »
Don't forget the airline industry, the shipping industry, the satellite TV industry etc, etc.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2018, 05:24:10 PM »
What's absurd is the notion that every single person in every one of these industries must be a liar for FET to hold up, but if y'all feel the need to resort to such hyperbole in defense of your ridiculing of our beliefs go ahead, it just underscores the invalidity of your argument.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

Re: Common sense?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2018, 05:45:53 PM »
I actually agree that not everyone would. In fact maybe quite a few people wouldn't have to be.
But there would still have to be a LOT of people involved.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 07:16:23 PM »
What's absurd is the notion that every single person in every one of these industries must be a liar for FET to hold up...
Most of us in such industries, if not being in league with some conspiracy, would have be duped somehow by those that were in on the conspiracy in order for FET to hold up.



Things I work on in my career wouldn't actually work if the earth was flat and there were no satellites where I think there are. All this would have been designed and built, integrated and put into operation for no reason other than to perpetuate an illusion; not for the general public but for people like me who believe these systems to be actually functional, just so that "they" could show me simulations of ascending and descending payloads and fake the data transmissions.


Worse, the actual end users of these "faked" satellite comm, who actually experience the communications difficulties this satellite system is intended to solve, are fooled into thinking it solved by a satellite link when actually some other, clandestine terrestrial system must be doing the actual solving. Because however it's working, it works.

All that effort, to hide a flat earth reality?

All of our globe/celestial/gravity tools and calculators and tables and predictions -- they all work. I've witnessed the launch of payloads. Were they staged?

For 27 years, I've worked with systems above the earth, from line-of-site radar and data link systems operating in aircraft at 25,000-30,000 feet where earth curvature is a necessary factor to consider, and in geostationary and Molniya orbiting communications, and at no point was a globe earth ever in doubt. It's more likely we're all living in the Matrix than on a flat earth.

I don't say this to "ridicule your beliefs," because it's never been nor never will be my agenda to make someone believe the earth isn't flat. But there is a common sense aspect to this subject that must be considered. The "why lie" question? It can't be ignored if you're a believer in FET.  A prominent aspect of FET, I see, is that it's not just a personal belief; leave me alone. It's driven by wanted to convince more people that they're being lied to. But so many people would have to be fooled that it would have to be Matrix-like. Especially those who do have experienced perspectives beyond looking for curved horizons or trying to measure if the earth is curved with lasers.

I've been to Antartica (for a day; military flight). 
I've seen the Aurora Borealis from Hobart.
I've watched many rockets (NASA and SpaceX) launch from Vandenberg.
I watched a shuttle launch from Canaveral.
I point my DirecTv dish on an azimuth and elevation, else I don't get reception.
I had to learn celestial navigation as a midshipman, and demonstrate its use. It works.
I tested airborne early warning techniques for extending the radar horizon by exploiting elevated inversion layers.

These are just a smattering of life experiences that tell me I live on a globe, none of which would make sense if the earth was actually a flat plane.

You don't have to accept them. They're personal and aren't offered as testimony to evangelize for the globe view. But if you'd like me to take FET seriously (which sure seems to me what FET proponents would like), I'd have to be convinced that all of these (and more) experiences and observations were illusions, or deceptions, or misunderstandings on my part.




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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2018, 08:33:52 PM »
I'd have to be convinced that all of these (and more) experiences and observations were illusions, or deceptions, or misunderstandings on my part.

That is the norm in adult life.

Home 'Ownership' - If you have a mortgage you don't actually own your home. The bank does. And even if you did pay it off, the government still has the power to take the land at any time and re-purpose it for other uses.

The Money System - A highly orchestrated ponzi scheme in which the bank is giving you pretend money.

Diamond Wedding Rings and Diamonds - Diamonds are plentiful and worthless, only valued highly by an international monopoly which controls the mines and constricts the supply.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 09:58:55 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Common sense?
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2018, 09:18:27 PM »
The difference is with those “deceptions” is we know that we are being “deceived”.
I don’t quite agree about the ownership, I do own my home BUT the mortgage provider have a claim on it if I can’t keep up the payments.
Money is made up but you have to have some system now we have moved on from bartering.
Diamonds, like all commodities, are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

None of this is quite the same as a huge worldwide deception which must be going on to hide the truth of the flat earth from us, and why? Why is this such a terrible truth which must be hidden from us poor saps?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Re: Common sense?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2018, 09:28:22 PM »
I'd have to be convinced that all of these (and more) experiences and observations were illusions, or deceptions, or misunderstandings on my part.

That is the norm in adult life.

Home 'Ownership' - If you have a mortgage you don't actually own your home. The bank does. And even if you did pay it, off the government still has the power to take the land at any time and repurpose it for other uses.

The Money System - A highly orchestrated ponzi scheme in which the bank is giving you pretend money.

Diamond Wedding Rings and Diamonds - Diamonds are plentiful and worthless, only valued highly by an international monopoly which controls the mines and constricts the supply.
Yet you cannot perform one experiment to prove the earth is anything but round.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2018, 10:13:57 PM »
I'd have to be convinced that all of these (and more) experiences and observations were illusions, or deceptions, or misunderstandings on my part.

That is the norm in adult life.

Home 'Ownership' - If you have a mortgage you don't actually own your home. The bank does. And even if you did pay it, off the government still has the power to take the land at any time and repurpose it for other uses.

The Money System - A highly orchestrated ponzi scheme in which the bank is giving you pretend money.

Diamond Wedding Rings and Diamonds - Diamonds are plentiful and worthless, only valued highly by an international monopoly which controls the mines and constricts the supply.
Can you identify your logical fallacy there?

My draw to the topic of Flat Earth wasn't because I had my doubts about a Globe Earth. It wasn't because I was antagonist towards Flat Earth and wanted to persuade anyone from believing it in. I don't care if you or anyone else insists the earth is flat.

I've only been curious to understand why. What are the arguments and evidences that are proving to be so convincing to some people, or at least causing them wonder?

From what I understand of the Flat Earth movement, it's not just to gain respect so that you can have your own beliefs and be left alone with them. You want to dispel the lie of a globe earth.  That's fine too, but it isn't passive. It's an activist mindset, which means you want to persuade people and convince them to at least give it some thought.

I'm more than willing to give it thought, but I also want to verify and double-check claims being made, including St. Rowbotham's. Which means you (as the one persuading) must overcome in me (the one needing to be persuaded) all of my globe-earth validating experiences, and convince me of why and how this deception could be pulled off.

The past week or so has been a really fun exercise in exploring what I think I know about globe earth and why? Seeing videos and reading blogs from both flat earth advocates and flat earth antagonists, watching what experiments they're trying, investigating their reasoning and thinking, looking up references and reading flat earth literature...I've learned a lot. I can't say I've been budged at all, but it's a good exercise. A lot of "globeheads" out there are not making good rebuttals. I may even be one of them.

But I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy (mostly), and I just don't see Flat Earth, in its current form, surviving that cutting. Too many ad hoc theories, some which are contradictory, combined with too many conspiracies or out-of-hand rejections of counter evidence. The mass of conspiracy that must be assumed in order for flat earth to be hidden and a globe earth to be a deception is, for me anyway, just too incredible and doesn't make sense.

I've asked myself, hypothetically, how would I react if I started to concede that there really WAS a cover up and that even we, in my industry, were largely duped, all this time thinking were were working with satellites but finding out none were ever really there. It would rock me to the core. Would I be afraid of admitting it if I started believing it? Yeah, probably. To be fooled on such a grand scale would be harder than a Truman Show sort of deception. I'm not resistant because I'm afraid of finding out such an unbelievable "truth". It could be a good movie script, but I just don't see how it adds up in real life. I'm sure I'm not in the Matrix. ("Whoa!  Deja Vu.")
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 01:12:00 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2018, 10:21:28 PM »
The difference is with those “deceptions” is we know that we are being “deceived”.
I don’t quite agree about the ownership, I do own my home BUT the mortgage provider have a claim on it if I can’t keep up the payments.

If you have to make home mortgage payments then you don't own your home.

Do you own an apple if you have to make payments to someone?

Quote
Money is made up but you have to have some system now we have moved on from bartering.
Diamonds, like all commodities, are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

Money used to be backed by a gold system. And even in that old system it was still a scam -- the bank could lend out 10 times more money than the gold was valued at. These days there isn't a gold reserve at all in most countries.

Quote
None of this is quite the same as a huge worldwide deception which must be going on to hide the truth of the flat earth from us, and why? Why is this such a terrible truth which must be hidden from us poor saps?

They aren't "hiding a Flat Earth". They are perpetuating the idea that Space Travel is possible, which they had to do to win the Cold War. They are simply mistaken on the earth's shape.

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Common sense?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2018, 10:33:46 PM »
The difference is with those “deceptions” is we know that we are being “deceived”.
I don’t quite agree about the ownership, I do own my home BUT the mortgage provider have a claim on it if I can’t keep up the payments.

If you have to make home mortgage payments then you don't own your home.

Do you own an apple if you have to make payments to someone?

Quote
Money is made up but you have to have some system now we have moved on from bartering.
Diamonds, like all commodities, are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

Money used to be backed by a gold system. And even in that old system it was still a scam -- the bank could lend out 10 times more money than the gold was valued at. These days there isn't a gold reserve at all in most countries.

Quote
None of this is quite the same as a huge worldwide deception which must be going on to hide the truth of the flat earth from us, and why? Why is this such a terrible truth which must be hidden from us poor saps?

They aren't "hiding a Flat Earth". They are perpetuating the idea that Space Travel is possible, which they had to do to win the Cold War. They are simply mistaken on the earth's shape.

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy
Measured distances and the path of the sun and satellites prove a round earth. Where are your experiments?

Offline Westprog

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2018, 11:27:07 PM »
What's absurd is the notion that every single person in every one of these industries must be a liar for FET to hold up, but if y'all feel the need to resort to such hyperbole in defense of your ridiculing of our beliefs go ahead, it just underscores the invalidity of your argument.

So who is on it? Perhaps not everyone on a flight needs to be aware of the truth, but presumably the pilot and co-pilot? They must have access to the Real Charts in order to safely bring people to their destinations. The people in Air Traffic Control, the people planning air routes, the owners of airlines, the corresponding people in the shipping business, the ministries of transport, the people who design roads and railway systems across continents - just who does need to be in on it?

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2018, 12:50:46 AM »
The difference is with those “deceptions” is we know that we are being “deceived”.
I don’t quite agree about the ownership, I do own my home BUT the mortgage provider have a claim on it if I can’t keep up the payments.

If you have to make home mortgage payments then you don't own your home.

Do you own an apple if you have to make payments to someone?

Quote
Money is made up but you have to have some system now we have moved on from bartering.
Diamonds, like all commodities, are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

Money used to be backed by a gold system. And even in that old system it was still a scam -- the bank could lend out 10 times more money than the gold was valued at. These days there isn't a gold reserve at all in most countries.

Quote
None of this is quite the same as a huge worldwide deception which must be going on to hide the truth of the flat earth from us, and why? Why is this such a terrible truth which must be hidden from us poor saps?

They aren't "hiding a Flat Earth". They are perpetuating the idea that Space Travel is possible, which they had to do to win the Cold War. They are simply mistaken on the earth's shape.

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy

I see a pretty typical tactic here, we have gone from asking why nearly half a million people are lying to the rest of the world about a space programme that cannot exist if the earth were flat (plus millions of navigators and pilots) yet what does Tom do? Asks off topic ridiculouss questions about mortgages and the banking system! Well done for another attempt to derail, deflect the discussion away from a subject you are clearly uncomfortable to discuss.

I for one am not uncomfortable about discussing it.

I would be one of the people in the “conspiracy” as i need to take my ship to different places on the earth, and arrive when i say we are going to, and use the fuel we say we are going to. All based on RE, and it works. So if the round Earth were a conspiracy, then i would be part of the bunch of people who are conspiring to do so. I can assure there is not any such conspiracy.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Re: Common sense?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2018, 02:21:40 AM »
The difference is with those “deceptions” is we know that we are being “deceived”.
I don’t quite agree about the ownership, I do own my home BUT the mortgage provider have a claim on it if I can’t keep up the payments.

If you have to make home mortgage payments then you don't own your home.

Do you own an apple if you have to make payments to someone?

Quote
Money is made up but you have to have some system now we have moved on from bartering.
Diamonds, like all commodities, are worth what people are willing to pay for them.

Money used to be backed by a gold system. And even in that old system it was still a scam -- the bank could lend out 10 times more money than the gold was valued at. These days there isn't a gold reserve at all in most countries.

Quote
None of this is quite the same as a huge worldwide deception which must be going on to hide the truth of the flat earth from us, and why? Why is this such a terrible truth which must be hidden from us poor saps?

They aren't "hiding a Flat Earth". They are perpetuating the idea that Space Travel is possible, which they had to do to win the Cold War. They are simply mistaken on the earth's shape.

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy

I see a pretty typical tactic here, we have gone from asking why nearly half a million people are lying to the rest of the world about a space programme that cannot exist if the earth were flat (plus millions of navigators and pilots) yet what does Tom do? Asks off topic ridiculouss questions about mortgages and the banking system! Well done for another attempt to derail, deflect the discussion away from a subject you are clearly uncomfortable to discuss.

I for one am not uncomfortable about discussing it.

I would be one of the people in the “conspiracy” as i need to take my ship to different places on the earth, and arrive when i say we are going to, and use the fuel we say we are going to. All based on RE, and it works. So if the round Earth were a conspiracy, then i would be part of the bunch of people who are conspiring to do so. I can assure there is not any such conspiracy.

No. Not part of the conspiracy. According to Tom's last post, you are simply mistaken as to the shape of the earth.

So how does that mistake translate to things based on that mistake actually working? Tontogary apparently uses a mistaken system to drive his boat across the flat earth? And gets to his destination? All the time? That, to me, is even more incredulous than "they" trying to hide the flat earth for religious purposes.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2018, 02:48:59 AM »
Rowbotham spends a lot of time talking about great circle sailing and navigation and such in Earth Not a Globe.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2018, 03:31:37 AM »
Rowbotham spends a lot of time talking about great circle sailing and navigation and such in Earth Not a Globe.
No comment:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za47.htm

JohnAdams1145

Re: Common sense?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2018, 03:34:47 AM »
I would encourage Tom to actually do some aerospace engineering. It's mind-boggling complex, and it takes the curvature of the Earth as the truth. There's so many things that need to be tuned for a curved Earth. Of course, you won't get that if you don't even have an introductory physics education.

I mean, why do we even have a GPS almanac? Is it because of moving terrestrial stations designed to fake the presence of satellites? Or is it simply because satellite orbits change ever so slightly?

Why would the U.S. government even introduce GPS if satellites were fake?

What about the inertial navigation systems found in cruise missiles and ballistic missiles?
Are they fake too?

« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 03:37:31 AM by JohnAdams1145 »

Re: Common sense?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2018, 04:00:01 AM »

If you have to make home mortgage payments then you don't own your home.

Do you own an apple if you have to make payments to someone?


Does the existence of property tax mean nobody owns their home?

Re: Common sense?
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2018, 04:15:09 AM »
So this is what I don't get. When Flat-earthers state that the shape of the earth is a disc, and that its not and never was a sphere, not only the 18,000 people working at Nasa are bold-faced lying to everyone, but the 100,000 people working in Chinas space program, The Indian space program, the Japanese space program, and Russian space program, along with every single astrophysicist, (around 430,000 people in total) are just lying to literally everyone in the world for no reason? I mean, It's honestly absurd.

They're not lying for "no reason". They're lying to embezzle money from taxpayers via fake space agencies. And most of the workers at NASA and other space agencies wouldn't be in on the hoax. Most of the workers probably think they're actually sending things into space.
Hi y'all. I am a typical GENIUS girl who does NOT follow the masses and who does NOT blindly accept what is told to me without EVIDENCE. That being said, I don't believe in a lot of "facts" (the quotations mean they're NOT actual facts) including evolution, the holocaust, and the globular earth HYPOTHESIS.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Common sense?
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2018, 04:39:28 AM »
Rowbotham spends a lot of time talking about great circle sailing and navigation and such in Earth Not a Globe.

You must be joking Tom.

The chapter on how the earth is circumnavigated is page 224 to page 228, and only deals with circumnavigating on page 224 (half of which is taken up by a diagram) and 225,226 the remainder of the chapter deals with compasses and the earths magnetic field, which we have already proved is based on no understanding of the basic properties of a magnetic field, and from which thread you ran away from claiming that magnetism had been changed to fit in with round earth theory!
2  pages of text (which amounts to very little actual text) does not describe circumnavigation. The entire text is described below. Hardly at length i might add!

“Another "proof" of the earth's rotundity is supposed to be found in the fact that mariners by sailing continually due east or west, return home in the opposite direction. This is called "The Circum-navigation of the Globe." Here, again, a supposition is involved, viz., that on a globe only can a ship continue to sail due east and come home from the west, and vice versâ. But when the process or method adopted is understood, it will be seen that a plane can as readily be circum-navigated as a sphere.

In the following diagram, fig. 86, let N, represent the. northern centre, near to which lies the "magnetic pole." Then the several arrows marked A, S, are all pointing northwards; and those marked E, W, are all due east and west. It is evident from the diagram, that A, S, are absolute directions--north and south; but that E, W, east and west, are only relative, that is they are directions at right angles to north and south. If it were not so then, taking the line N, A, S, as representing the meridian of Greenwich, and W, E, on that meridian as due east and west, on moving due west to the meridian 3, 4, N, it is evident that a vessel represented by the arrow 1, 2, would be at angle with the meridian 3, 4, N, much greater than 90 degrees, and if it continued to sail in the same straight line 2, 1, 5, it would get farther and farther away from the centre N, and therefore could never complete a path concentric with N. East and west, however, are directions relative to north and south. Hence, on a mariner arriving at the meridian 3, 4, N, he must of necessity turn the head of his vessel in the direction indicated by the arrow 6, 7, and thus continuing to keep the vessel's head square to the compass, or at right angles to north and south, he will at length arrive at 90 degrees of meridian from N, A, S, when the head of the vessel will be in the direction of E, W, 8. Continuing his course for 90 degrees more his path will be E, W, 9. The same course continued will in the next 90 degrees become E, W, 10, and on passing over another 90 degrees the ship will have arrived again at the meridian of Greenwich N, A, S, having then completed a circle.

Hence it is evident that sailing westerly, or in a direction square to the compass, on passing from one meridian to another, the path must of necessity be an arc of a circle. The series of arcs on completing a passage of 360 degrees form a circular path concentric with the magnetic pole, and necessarily, on a plane surface, brings the ship home from the east; and on the contrary, sailing out east, the vessel cannot do otherwise than return from the west.

A very good illustration of the circum-navigation of a plane will be seen by taking a round table, and fixing a pin in the centre to represent the magnetic pole. To this central pin attach a string drawn out to any distance towards the edge of the table. This string may represent the meridian of Greenwich, extending due north and south. If now a pencil or other object is placed across, or at right angles to the string, at any distance between the centre and the circumference of the table, it will represent a vessel standing due east and west. Now move the pencil and the string together in either direction, and it will be seen that by keeping the vessel (or pencil), square to the string it must of necessity describe a circle round the magnetic centre and return to the starting point in the opposite direction to that in which it first sailed.

If it is borne in mind what is really meant by sailing due east or due west, which practically is neither more nor less than keeping the head of a ship at right angles to the various meridians over which it sails, there can be no difficulty in understanding how it is that the path of a circumnavigator is the circumference of a circle, the radius of which is the latitude or distance of the ship from the centre of a plane. But if, in addition to this, the leading facts connected with the subject are considered, it will be seen that the circumnavigation of a globe by the mariners' compass is an impossibility. “

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.