Offline SiDawg

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This Is How Perspective Works
« on: April 28, 2018, 06:52:36 AM »
Hi, forgive the large image heavy post, but I have finally finished my slide series showing how perspective works. Please read all the way through: it explains why we see things smaller as they are further away in terms of what is happening inside your eye, demonstrates how to calculate apparent size and location of objects, explains why "diagonal lines on side views" are misleading, and shows why an object never reaches a vanishing point.

All feedback welcome: if you feel certain areas need further clarification, or could be explained more clearly, i'm open to editing the series for FE and RE believers alike.
'Perspective' by SiDawg (https://imgur.com/a/CSG38fL) Licensed CC BY-NC-SA https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/






















Offline Westprog

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Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2018, 10:49:07 AM »

That's an excellent post, and it's quite easy to follow.

I'm sure that one of the experts on celestial perspective will be able to build on this to show how the view of the Sun works on a flat Earth in a similarly detailed and precise fashion. I've had some trouble following it and itt would be a great help to have it shown here. Then the FAQ could be updated.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2018, 11:08:58 AM »

That's an excellent post, and it's quite easy to follow.

I'm sure that one of the experts on celestial perspective will be able to build on this to show how the view of the Sun works on a flat Earth in a similarly detailed and precise fashion. I've had some trouble following it and itt would be a great help to have it shown here. Then the FAQ could be updated.

True, except i am not sure it can actually work on a flat earth, not as shown, and it in no way can explain why we see half of the sun at sunset and sunrise.

SiDawg, very interesting and informative post, which i am sure will attract the attention of the nit pickers who will want to know all sorts of irrelevant rubbish to derail the thread. I am sure there will be some waves, magnetism and a few other random “thoughts” thrown in, but what you say, and shows is pretty much what happens.

I was able to follow and understand it very well, and it all makes sense.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Offline Westprog

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Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2018, 11:48:41 AM »
True, except i am not sure it can actually work on a flat earth, not as shown, and it in no way can explain why we see half of the sun at sunset and sunrise.

Yes, that's the slight problem with it. But let's see!

Offline SiDawg

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Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2018, 12:37:01 PM »
Thanks all. I hope it serves as a link that can be used in other debates. Even if other FE effects like "magnetism" or "celestial gravity" are used to explain sunrise/sunset and bending of light, hopefully this serves as a starting point, i.e. this is how perspective NORMALLY works, and anything else is a force acting on light rays that would normally behave in the manner above.

Similar to how refraction effects ships disappearing past the horizon: it doesn't disprove the curve, it just ads extra information. By separating the two, and providing an explanation for the first, then it makes it easier to argue any subsequent effects (e.g. if someone says it's "magnetism" then you can calculate how much the light would have to bend at every point in relation to where it SHOULD appear due to perspective as described above)

In itself, I'm hoping it at least shows the Rowbotham and P-Brane understanding of perspective as completely wrong.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 12:56:10 PM by SiDawg »

Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2018, 07:28:35 PM »
Another way to think about sunset is if you're 3000 miles above a flat earth (where the sun apparently is?) could you see the whole disc of the earth?
If not, what would stop you? Why wouldn't there be a clear line of sight between you and the edges of the disc?

Looking at this diagram from the FE Wiki on their FAQ page, I've drawn red lines from the "sun" to the four "corners" marked:



It's not that easy to see from that although it's clearer with the two lower lines. What would stop the clear line of sight between the sun and the edges of the earth?
If the sun can "see" the edge of the earth then the opposite must be true, ergo the sun would shine across the whole disc.
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop

Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2018, 07:33:14 PM »
Another way to think about sunset is if you're 3000 miles above a flat earth (where the sun apparently is?) could you see the whole disc of the earth?
If not, what would stop you? Why wouldn't there be a clear line of sight between you and the edges of the disc?

Looking at this diagram from the FE Wiki on their FAQ page, I've drawn red lines from the "sun" to the four "corners" marked:



It's not that easy to see from that although it's clearer with the two lower lines. What would stop the clear line of sight between the sun and the edges of the earth?
If the sun can "see" the edge of the earth then the opposite must be true, ergo the sun would shine across the whole disc.
According to the FE hypothesis that follows this idea, the sun experiences perspective as well. Welcome to where (in my opinion) everything becomes a tangled web, as it asserts everything experiences perspective, as though it was some law of light rather than optics. So as the sun appears to set to you, the sun 'sees' you 'setting' at the same time.

Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2018, 08:31:23 PM »
According to the FE hypothesis that follows this idea, the sun experiences perspective as well. Welcome to where (in my opinion) everything becomes a tangled web, as it asserts everything experiences perspective, as though it was some law of light rather than optics. So as the sun appears to set to you, the sun 'sees' you 'setting' at the same time.
There is a grain of truth in that. When the sets then I can't see the sun therefore the sun can't "see" me.
If there's a clear line of sight between two people then they can see each other, if there isn't then they can't.
But the point is with a sun 3000 miles above the plane of the earth the sun can't set over the sea, there will always be a clear line of sight between you and the sun.
I've shown elsewhere that waves doesn't cut it as an explanation.
It's telling that Tom has repeatedly refused to provide a diagram showing how light travels from a sun THREE THOUSAND miles above the earth and ends up coming at me horizontally to cast long shadows and intersect the horizon.
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2018, 09:07:28 AM »
I have to chime in, although probably not in the way you'd like me to. I'm wearing my dusted-off janitor outfit, you see.

Why is this thread in Flat Earth Debate? You are not debating anything, you're simply providing a statement of the RE model of perspective. I don't think anyone here is interested in telling RE'ers how their model does and doesn't work.

I understand why you want the content here, and, fair enough, if you plan using it in future debates then it's probably allowable. However, I propose that we move this to Science & Alternative Science, and split most of the responses away to an Angry Ranting thread, since they just comprise RE'ers talking about how irrational they find Flat Earthers and how superior they consider themselves.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline edby

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Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2018, 11:24:01 AM »
So the scientific way to approach the parallel line issue is firstly to accept beyond any doubt that two parallel lines never meet. This is a mathematical impossibility by definition.
No it’s a logical impossibility.  Parallel lines by definition are lines that do not meet at any point. So can parallel lines meet? Only if lines that never meet are able to meet. That is a logical impossibility, not just a mathematical one.


But that's part of the problem. That it is just a definition. If you change the definition by itself, you have to change everything that is based on this definition. The whole flat-earth idea is basically about playing with possibilities. How would the perception of the world change if parallel lines would have fixed distance if they are near by you and you can measure this distance, but do appear as merging into each other at a far away, but nevertheless finite distance? Of course that contradicts the inherent logic of Euclidean geometry, but how do you prove the validity of this if the point where you would have to measure this is to far away to make a conclusive measurement?   
Why is the definition the problem? Of course you can redefine parallel lines that do meet at some point, but no one has done this as far as I know.

You use the word ‘appear’ later on. Yes of course lines that never actually meet, can appear to meet. What exactly does this prove? It doesn’t prove that they actually meet, because we stipulated that they don’t actually meet.

"Of course that contradicts the inherent logic of Euclidean geometry". No not at all. Something can appear a certain way, without actually being that way. Appearance vs reality etc.


I have to chime in, although probably not in the way you'd like me to. I'm wearing my dusted-off janitor outfit, you see.

Why is this thread in Flat Earth Debate? You are not debating anything, you're simply providing a statement of the RE model of perspective. I don't think anyone here is interested in telling RE'ers how their model does and doesn't work.

I understand why you want the content here, and, fair enough, if you plan using it in future debates then it's probably allowable. However, I propose that we move this to Science & Alternative Science, and split most of the responses away to an Angry Ranting thread, since they just comprise RE'ers talking about how irrational they find Flat Earthers and how superior they consider themselves.
I would be interested in understanding how the FE model of perspective works.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 11:33:00 AM by edby »

Offline hexagon

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Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 11:52:02 AM »
The definition is a problem, because in principle you are free in how you define something. Also think about, that this definition of parallel lines is only valid in Euclidean space. If you go to hyperbolic spaces or things like Riemann space and the 4-dimensional space of the general relativity, you have no straight lines anymore, just shortest connections between two points in space. Or think of the surface of a sphere. The "straight lines" are all part of great circles, and the great circles meet always twice on a sphere.   

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: This Is How Perspective Works
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2018, 06:55:47 PM »
I propose that we move this to Science & Alternative Science, and split most of the responses away to an Angry Ranting thread, since they just comprise RE'ers talking about how irrational they find Flat Earthers and how superior they consider themselves.
Since there were no objections to this, I am now moving/splitting the thread and locking it.
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