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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #320 on: May 27, 2018, 03:28:23 PM »
Updated graphic:

Offline Tontogary

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #321 on: May 27, 2018, 03:35:52 PM »
I got the heights from a nautical chart of the area.

I am not sure if you can get an online edition of the chart, as they normally require a subscription.

The other place you may find it would be the US coast pilot. Again i am not sure if you can access it on line for free.

I can take a photo of the screen showing the chart, and height if you wish?

Please? We'll call it Fair Use? You can just PM it to me.

Even better, I have a link, it is a free to view copy of the paper chart. It is an official link, and is ok to use.

Zoom into the chart about bottom middle and you will see the islands. Middle Coronado, and the little one just north of it, and the numbers in brackets will be the height.

Now it also shows North Coronado having a max height of 476 feet, so that would be much closer to your observation height, but i can see that Tom would just dismiss it out of hand as being higher etc etc. Best go for a lower height.
I am interested to see if there is ANY way that this can be nit picked to discredit the observation.

I am pretty certain that at no point will you ever see the horizon higher than the top of the islands.....

http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18765.shtml
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 03:39:53 PM by Tontogary »

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #322 on: May 27, 2018, 03:49:51 PM »
When you have followed the link, do a new search for chart 18773, it will show you pretty good elevations around Lima point. There are some pretty good contours there, and at the Carrillo national monument there is a tower, right on the 400 foot contour, with what looks like a road nearby.

You obviously know the area and will know where you can get to. I only can read the charts.........

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #323 on: May 27, 2018, 04:52:22 PM »
Awesome! Thanks.

Looking at the chart for the tip of Point Loma, I think the public overlook just south of the old lighthouse is the best, and it does match to right about 400' or a bit more. Under 420' with tripod for sure. I feel like there ought to be a geodesic benchmark somewhere, but this is good enough.

That other "tower" on the chart is a fenced off facility for what looks like meteorological equipment and a microwave antenna or two. The public observations points are above the ground level where those are.

I looked around for other spots at 250' to maybe put Central Coronados in transit. I marked a few spots:

- The blue star is on a public path that goes down toward the bayside portion of the point, and if it weren't for that ridge I marked with a red line, it would be great.
- The green star is on federal property. I can get there, but I can't bring a camera. (Battery Humphreys is an old WW2 embattlement, used for other purposes now.)
- The orange star is on a public roadway that provides access to the windward coastal areas like the current lighthouse, tidepools and other federal facilities. There's no pull off area or stopping permitted. I think pedestrians are allowed on the shoulder to make the walk up/down the road, but not to stop and set up a tripod station. And there's no off road/trail hiking permitted. (Not fenced off, but posted.)



As an aside, I was shooed away from taking photos from a vantage point further north from the tip. It's on federal property and not behind gates, but I was asked what I was doing and told that though I'm permitted access, I can't use my camera since it overlooks federal facilities. That's what led me to check out the end of Point Loma in the 1st place. That was a great location, close to where I work and comfortable (picnic tables, shade, parking within feet...it was perfect.)  That had an elevation of about 400' also and I could see all of the Coronados, albeit adding around 2-3 miles to the distance and not affording any access close to sealevel.

I am allowed to take photos from the public pull off a few hundred meters north of that, above the TRANSDEC pool, but I can't see the islands from there. It's still a good spot to view the horizon. When I've got my cube or my water level tubes set up on a tripod, I invariably have other motorists or cyclists stopping to ask what I'm doing. I probably should make up a poster board explaining. Even though I think this is proving to support a globe earth, the mere fact that it gives attention to a flat earth prospect has to be something The Flat Earth Society would appreciate.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 04:55:41 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #324 on: May 27, 2018, 05:42:26 PM »
That person can't prevent you from taking pictures. You may not want to deal with it, but that person needs to review the rights of photographers.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #325 on: May 27, 2018, 08:49:34 PM »
That person can't prevent you from taking pictures. You may not want to deal with it, but that person needs to review the rights of photographers.
It's federal property. I'm not aware of any rights that permit trumping government facility security rules. The fact that it's posted as federal property but access is not controlled and no signage informing that photography is forbidden might give me an argument if they threatened to take my camera or penalize me for having snapped some photos, but I don't think I have any argument to claim I can stay and continue to photograph once informed.

And yeah, I'm certainly not going to fight it. I know of and agree to the no-photography rules without authorization on controlled property. I rely on continued access, so I'm not going to risk that. I just think it's not clear if those rules apply from that location.

There's an old adage that's sometimes applicable that goes along the lines of not asking a question where you might not like the answer. It goes "better to beg forgiveness than ask permission." I purposely didn't ask because I wanted to shoot from that spot, until someone said something. Then someone said something. So I'm not going to complain nor press it.

(I'd like to add that the security guys were very cool about it. Not like they were jackboots, even though I did say "I got booted." It was just a phrase. They pulled up, asked me what I was doing. I told them I was taking advantage of the view to photograph the islands. They kindly informed me that I couldn't do that on government property without a camera pass, which I could get from the security office with approval of my branch (which I ain't gonna ask for). So, I confessed I didn't know, since I thought I was off the controlled area. Offered to let them look at the photos to verify I wasn't trying to spy on the activities below behind the fence line, but they said no need. And they left, letting me stay to finish my lunch and enjoy the view. If I didn't have a badge, I probably would have been asked to leave, but they weren't jerks or intimidating. And I wasn't going to be combative either.)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 08:56:17 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #326 on: May 27, 2018, 11:23:22 PM »
The competing claims and their predictions, with the clearest photo so far:



« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 11:46:21 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Offline SiDawg

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #327 on: May 28, 2018, 05:31:01 AM »
Hi I don't quite follow your logic with the islands appearing about the horizon... Again, I'm playing devils advocate (folks are going to think i'm a flat earther soon!)

But if horizon rises to eye level, they will surely just say that the islands along that line can have their tops above eye level? (the and first top above the bottom of the second top)

Quote from: Round Eyes
Long range, high altitude, potentially solar powered airplanes [...] If the planes are travelling approx 15 miles about earth, that works out to around 2,200 mph, or Mach 3

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #328 on: May 28, 2018, 06:27:22 PM »
But if horizon rises to eye level, they will surely just say that the islands along that line can have their tops above eye level? (the and first top above the bottom of the second top)


Not if they're tops are at the same height as eye level.



To borrow a Vegas slogan, "What happens at eye-level, stays as eye-level." How can an island peak be at eye level and also appear to be above eye level?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #329 on: May 28, 2018, 07:26:11 PM »
From Mt. Soledad a couple of weeks ago. Observation "eye level" 800' (+/- 10'); at sunset:



Verifying eye level horizontal plane:



Catalina Island visible on horizon, 70-75 miles away:



Identifiable peak elevations and their elevations:



Line of the horizon is below these summits. Line of "eye level" is above.

Offline edby

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #330 on: May 28, 2018, 08:42:00 PM »
OK just testing. How do you know that the line with the eye on actually is at eye level?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #331 on: May 28, 2018, 09:20:01 PM »
How do you know that the line with the eye on actually is at eye level?

Clues are in the photograph:



The water level provides an indicator of horizontal. The orthogonal lines of the leveled cube converge on the line. If the cube was tilted forward or backward, the lines of perspective would converge above or below the level water line.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 09:22:24 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Offline edby

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #332 on: May 28, 2018, 09:27:20 PM »
Oh I see. Didn't realise it was a water level.

Isn't this conclusive proof then?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #333 on: May 28, 2018, 09:34:32 PM »
Oh I see. Didn't realise it was a water level.

Isn't this conclusive proof then?

I'd like to make more observations at different elevations and validate that this is repeatable and the "dip" is outside any margin for error. But, for me, it's trending toward conclusive.

But the point of this is that its something anyone could do. You don't have to rely on reports (or photos) of others. See for yourself.

Offline edby

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #334 on: May 28, 2018, 10:04:12 PM »
Oh I see. Didn't realise it was a water level.

Isn't this conclusive proof then?

I'd like to make more observations at different elevations and validate that this is repeatable and the "dip" is outside any margin for error. But, for me, it's trending toward conclusive.

But the point of this is that its something anyone could do. You don't have to rely on reports (or photos) of others. See for yourself.
Yup. No CGI, satellites etc required.

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #335 on: May 28, 2018, 10:15:32 PM »
Oh I see. Didn't realise it was a water level.

Isn't this conclusive proof then?
It is, but Tom will find some spurious objection while refusing to get out there and do any observations himself.
I like that these photos are at sunset, so it can't be sensibly claimed that the "real horizon" is actually in the sky as was claimed for other photos.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Max_Almond

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #336 on: May 29, 2018, 01:16:42 AM »
That's very good, Bobby: a great little tool for conclusively showing that, at elevation, eye level is not level with the horizon.

Offline SiDawg

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #337 on: May 29, 2018, 06:28:08 AM »
Would also love to hear how the supposed "Electromagnetic Accelerator" makes light bend upwards beneath the clouds... in a U shape?
Quote from: Round Eyes
Long range, high altitude, potentially solar powered airplanes [...] If the planes are travelling approx 15 miles about earth, that works out to around 2,200 mph, or Mach 3

Offline Tontogary

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #338 on: May 29, 2018, 07:09:14 AM »
Would also love to hear how the supposed "Electromagnetic Accelerator" makes light bend upwards beneath the clouds... in a U shape?

I dont want to give them ammunition, but i am sure they will say something daft like reflected off the ocean......

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #339 on: May 29, 2018, 01:04:40 PM »
Would also love to hear how the supposed "Electromagnetic Accelerator" makes light bend upwards beneath the clouds... in a U shape?

I dont want to give them ammunition, but i am sure they will say something daft like reflected off the ocean......
For the record that WAS one of the suggestions during the thread on it: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6875.0

Also do note, according to Tom at least, most of the FES has given up support of the EA and it has been left in the wiki for historical purposes. I can try to dig up the quote if you like.