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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #340 on: May 29, 2018, 05:30:22 PM »
Not my photo. Found it online. Clear day. Not zoomed, but horizon still below the tops of all islands from an elevated viewpoint on Point Loma. (New lighthouse near sealevel in the lower right corner.)

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #341 on: May 29, 2018, 05:33:18 PM »
Also not my photo; but my annotations.

Photo is from Mount Soledad looking past Point Loma toward Mexico's Coronado Islands.


« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 06:06:28 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #342 on: May 29, 2018, 05:55:37 PM »
Grain of salt time, but since I took the photo on the right (so I know the details) but I find no embedded information on the photo on the left.

But, estimating by eye, my photo, looking westward from Mount Soledad and the other one, looking south from same elevation, seem to be at the same focal length.

So, comparing side-by-side, this COULD (emphasis on "could") be a fair extension of my eye-level measurement with the Coronado Islands view.

The South Coronado island is about 100' lower than the summit of Mount Soledad in La Jolla.

Horizon and "eye-level" are well apart, in both images.

« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 06:20:21 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #343 on: May 29, 2018, 08:08:27 PM »
I don't think you're going to notice a difference of 5' 7" at a 2.9 miles

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #344 on: May 30, 2018, 01:11:54 AM »
Also not my photo; but my annotations.

Photo is from Mount Soledad looking past Point Loma toward Mexico's Coronado Islands.


Antsy for good viewing weather.

Took a quick side trip to Mt Soledad on drive home, even though I knew the visibility was poor. Found the same spot where this other photograph was taken.  Can't make out a horizon line or see any off shore islands.


Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #345 on: May 30, 2018, 07:35:36 PM »
Define "eye-level".

And also, we've discussed this at length before and the flat earthers didn't understand any of the evidence presented.
Am i missing something here? Is there another gazza711 as im new here?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #346 on: May 30, 2018, 10:00:48 PM »


Photo from within 10' of sealevel, at near low tide.

Clear horizon, but is it "true?"  Note that the tip of Pilón de Azúcar seems to be floating above the horizon.

Also, if that little rocky island, 16.9 miles away from where this 10' above sea level photo was taken is really just 101-108' at its summit, it should not be visible at all. But with just standard refraction, as much as 10-15' of the island's highest elevation is predicted to be visible.

Where is the true horizon?

Offline Theo

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #347 on: May 30, 2018, 10:25:18 PM »
It's pretty obvious to me where the horizon is and even more so if you adjust the contrast...



https://i.imgur.com/AJIY3nD.jpg

That's a pretty sharp separation between water and sky even without adjusting contrast.
It's almost as sharp as between the water and the ship 

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #348 on: May 30, 2018, 10:56:56 PM »
That's what I thought, and I agree that it's sharp. But is it the actual horizon or just an apparent one?

There's a mirror effect in the distance. Is that mirroring masking the true horizon or is it masking what should be visible of the islands?

My answer is that the actual horizon is at the level where the "mirroring" takes place, meaning it's above that sharp line slightly.

It's like this example of an inferior mirage during sunset.



It looks like the horizon is where the sea meets the sky, but the sun reveals the inversion layer and gives you a mirror image of the lower limb of the sun rising up to merge with the setting sun. That merging point is where the actual horizon is.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #349 on: May 30, 2018, 11:14:49 PM »
To be clearer:


This is exhibiting an inferior mirage, I believe. The lower band (above the apparent horizon) is a mirror image of the upper band. It reveals itself with the islands, where the red is an inverted image of the black. But without any distinguishing characteristics of the water line, the "mirror" blends and you can't detect the "fold."

So, the question is, if that inversion effect wasn't there and the mirage disappears, what would you see in that lower band?  Between the islands, would we see more sea, as if the horizon line were higher? Or background sky, meaning that sharp line we do see is aligned with the actual horizon? On the islands, would you see lower elevations of the island or would the line of the sea rise to that level?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #350 on: May 30, 2018, 11:32:48 PM »
Same day, but at a higher elevation (400'):



Now, I don't see the mirage effect, but that's probably because my angle is penetrating the inversion layer at too steep an angle at the distance of those islands. The sharp horizon is now beyond that distance, further away, and I have nothing on the horizon to see if there's a "mirror" effect where my sight line is tangent to the surface.

But even if it were, it'd be far enough away that, geometrically, I don't think it would make an appreciable difference between "true" and "apparent" horizon.

So far, in my short observation period, I've never seen the horizon appear above this little "ledge" on the larger Central Coronado island.



I labeled that "actual," but maybe it should be "apparent" since I know there's a temperature inversion and likely an inferior mirage. Though at the distance the horizon would be at from that viewing elevation, the band of mirage would be miniscule and not really change the level of that horizon line much if any.

Nowhere close to "eye level" anyway, which on a flat plane would be above the summit of the larger island. I'm just trying to give "horizon at eye level" claimants every possible benefit of doubt.

Offline Theo

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #351 on: May 31, 2018, 02:01:56 AM »
Bobby I don't think you're dealing with a mirage.  Wouldn't you expect the same effect to occur on the lower part of the Island on the left? They are very close to the same height.  I think your are seeing the top of the rock on right due to refraction not mirage. 


https://i.imgur.com/LiP75oe.jpg

Also wouldn't a mirage appear opposite of your example?  The 2 pyramids being mirrored point to point?

My compliments Sir on your efforts and especially the water level apparatus. 

You already proved the shape with the fact that you see more of the Islands as you rise in altitude
 

https://i.imgur.com/Jc7siJy.jpg

I guess this is just icing on the cake?   ;)


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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #352 on: May 31, 2018, 05:21:58 AM »
Bobby I don't think you're dealing with a mirage.  Wouldn't you expect the same effect to occur on the lower part of the Island on the left? They are very close to the same height.  I think your are seeing the top of the rock on right due to refraction not mirage. 
No doubt, refraction is making that island tip on the right visible, but an inversion layer is distorting it, as well as the portion of the island on the left that is coincident with the inversion layer:



The white line in the upper image is where I think the horizon is. Above it, to the yellow line, is real and what is being inverted in an inferior image from the white line to the red line, where an apparent horizon is.

In the lower image, taken from 400' higher, we can see what the islands really look like below that white line, and it's not what's in the upper picture between the white and red lines. The inferior mirage elongates, undercuts or even makes the tip of the small island appear to float. But that's because instead of the real image, it's an inverted image of the same band above the white line.

My question, without the inversion and it's inferior mirage, what would appear between the white and red lines in the upper picture? Would it be the slightly lower elevations of the islands? Or would it be the water line?

My guess is the waterline, which means the white line is where the actual horizon is and not the red line, which is the apparent horizon. The inferior mirage depresses the appearance of the horizon just slightly.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #353 on: May 31, 2018, 09:19:19 AM »

HorstFue

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #354 on: May 31, 2018, 11:54:30 AM »
FES links one of the best examples for mountains sticking out above the horizon in the Wiki:
https://wiki.tfes.org/A_view_from_Everest

No other point on Earth is higher than Mount Everest. So if horizon is at eye level, you should not see any other mountain stick out above the horizon ...
You may have to turn around the panorama view a bit, to find one rather close and others in the distance.

Max_Almond

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #355 on: May 31, 2018, 03:16:59 PM »
FES links one of the best examples for mountains sticking out above the horizon in the Wiki:
https://wiki.tfes.org/A_view_from_Everest

No other point on Earth is higher than Mount Everest. So if horizon is at eye level, you should not see any other mountain stick out above the horizon ...
You may have to turn around the panorama view a bit, to find one rather close and others in the distance.

It's not quite clear what you mean here. The distance to the horizon depends entirely on the height of the observer above sea or ground level. Whether you can see a mountain or not depends on how close you are to it, and how tall it is. Not sure how Mount Everest comes into it.

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #356 on: May 31, 2018, 03:28:48 PM »
FES links one of the best examples for mountains sticking out above the horizon in the Wiki:
https://wiki.tfes.org/A_view_from_Everest

No other point on Earth is higher than Mount Everest. So if horizon is at eye level, you should not see any other mountain stick out above the horizon ...
You may have to turn around the panorama view a bit, to find one rather close and others in the distance.

It's not quite clear what you mean here. The distance to the horizon depends entirely on the height of the observer above sea or ground level. Whether you can see a mountain or not depends on how close you are to it, and how tall it is. Not sure how Mount Everest comes into it.
If you are on top of Everest then you have to be looking down on everything else, yes?
So if the horizon is at eye level then the horizon would have to appear above all the other peaks around you.
The only thing is the same problem as from a plane, at that height the horizon is often not that clear.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #357 on: May 31, 2018, 05:18:41 PM »
Even though it's overcast, it might be a good day for some Sunset Cliffs horizon observations:




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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #358 on: May 31, 2018, 10:48:12 PM »
May 31st, 2018 12:31 PDT
Location: 32°40'30.1"N 117°14'46.3"W
Elevation: 100' (+/- 5')
Photo: Original 4000x2248 jpg (2MB)




May 31st, 2018  13:30 PDT
Location: 32°40'22.5"N 117°14'30.7"W
Elevation: 400' (+/- 10')
Photo: Original 4000x2248 jpg (2MB)




Bonus: tried water level device at the lower elevation. Did not put it to use at the 400' site. Will give it a try at 800' later:
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 01:37:27 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #359 on: June 01, 2018, 01:40:37 AM »
Annotated: