[Tontogary]

Can any Flat Earthers please provide me a link to a chart of the world? If you dare.

I would be very interested to see what they think is the North Pole, lines of longitude and latitude, and relative positions of the continents.

It will help me understand your claims better, and try to resolve where i have been misled all my adult life regarding Navigation.

[Westprog]

Can any Flat Earthers please provide me a link to a chart of the world? If you dare.

I would be very interested to see what they think is the North Pole, lines of longitude and latitude, and relative positions of the continents.

It will help me understand your claims better, and try to resolve where i have been misled all my adult life regarding Navigation.

This is the one big hole in flat Earth "theory". No map will be provided, as no map can be provided. It's always "a work in progress", implying that there's a big team of flat Earth geographers working tirelessly on tidying up the last loose ends.

Nobody is working on a flat Earth map, because as soon as they try, the whole thing falls apart. We live on a world where we know how long it takes to get from one place to another. These travel times work perfectly on a globe, but fall apart totally on any possible flat Earth map. The only way to hold onto the belief system is the idea that there's a wonderful perfect flat Earth map just around the corner.

We all know how long it takes to fly to South America or Australia or Japan. Millions of people take intercontinental flights every year. We know that when Parallax, say, claims that distances are twice as long in the Southern Hemisphere, he's talking nonsense, because we can tell how long flights take. We can look out the windows of the plane and know that we're following Great Circle routes, not the straight lines on a flat Earth.

[Tontogary]

Yes i can see that no FEers would be brave enough to put a map here that can be looked at and challenged. They seem to skirt around providing some form of evidence to us who can easily prove them wrong.

However i am willing to look at any evidence and see what they can show me, and make my informed comments. I can back up my comments with experience and mathematics, which is probably more than FEers can.

I notice on the Q&A section there is a map, with the comment, “this is a possible map, but not definitive”

Maps have been produced since the Middle Ages, not always to the best detail, and not always accurate, but they were produced.

Surely FEers must have some idea what the world looks like, as they all seem to agree there is a great ice wall to the south, all the way round the edge, so how hard can it be to fill in the details?
They seem to agree that the North Pole is at the Center of this map, otherwise their flashlight sun theory wont work, so we have 2 important points there, the Center, and what is there, and the edges.

Surely they have a better knowledge of cartography than people from the dark ages did? Or are they more backwards than that? They certainly claim to be more sophisticated in the arguments, so i challenge someone to point a FE map, Please?

I await with anticipation.

[Tom Bishop]

Our total annual budget is $0. The allocated cartography budget is $0.

We are already giving out our little free time away from work to discuss a few matters. You aren't paying us. Why do you guys complain so much?

[jcks]

Our total annual budget is $0. The allocated cartography budget is $0.

We are already giving out our little free time away from work to discuss a few matters. You aren't paying us. Why do you guys complain so much?

Where are these discussions being had? Does it involve a map of the flat earth? What's the progress?

[Westprog]

Our total annual budget is $0. The allocated cartography budget is $0.

We are already giving out our little free time away from work to discuss a few matters. You aren't paying us. Why do you guys complain so much?

It doesn't actually require a massive budget, since the distances between the various places on the Earth can be shown to an approximation by air travel times. Obviously this is quite loose, since aircraft have different cruising speeds, and there are issues with the windspeed, but it would be a reasonable sanity check.

One could just spend an occasional afternoon sketching map layouts, and seeing if any of them fit with what is known - or at least, fit nearly as well as with a globe. It involves the expenditure of slightly more than $0, but it shouldn't run over $20. Certainly cheaper than running a computer, which one assumes the people posting here at least have access to.

As to the "complaining" - this is a forum explicitly labelled "Flat Earth Debate". The idea of a debate is to compare ideas and to show the relative strengths and weaknesses of them. There would be little point in a debate forum where nobody ever pointed out the weak points of an opponent's arguments.

And the lack of a map of the flat Earth, after having several thousand years to produce one, is a massive hole in the theory. It's an obstacle because without a map, it's not possible to test the theory at all. Meanwhile, we trace distances and routes on the globe, and find that yes, they work.

[Tontogary]

Our total annual budget is $0. The allocated cartography budget is $0.

We are already giving out our little free time away from work to discuss a few matters. You aren't paying us. Why do you guys complain so much?

I didnt ask about your budget. I asked for a map, or a sketch that resembles a map. You are not answering the question.

You claim there is mountains of research to back up your ideas, and i am asking you to show me the proof in a picture form of what the earth looks like, and you claim no one has paid for one yet? Or is it because you cant make any money out of it?
Rowbotham only reprinted his ludicrous theories to make a quick buck, and it seems like that is where the FEers have stopped, if it cant make money, or is not defensible, we wont discuss it, or claim we have not been paid for it.

I tell you what, describe it to me and i will draw your map for you for free, i just need some idea of what it actually is you are claiming the earth looks like.

I keep the copyright and when you are proved right I will donate half the proceeds to the FE Society. Can’t say fairer than that can I? If you are right the FES gets rich, and i get rich as well, but of course you have to be proved right 1st.... i take the time to draw your map, and you dont have to spend any dollars....win win for you Tom!

[kasai]

You wanted it, I'm just providing it, not interested to be in the conversation your about to have, too early in the morning for me. This it the more "correct" version.

[kasai]

And just to clarify, this is a "Air Map" created by a round earther, but the map is more accurate for flat earth study.

[Tontogary]

And just to clarify, this is a "Air Map" created by a round earther, but the map is more accurate for flat earth study.

I was about to point out that you obviously did not read the notes on either side regarding Mercator projection map as, as well as the handy note and scale on the right hand side regarding distances!

However if this is what FEers believe the world to look like flat, then let me study it, and i will have some observations and questions.

[Frocious]

Our total annual budget is $0. The allocated cartography budget is $0.

We are already giving out our little free time away from work to discuss a few matters. You aren't paying us. Why do you guys complain so much?

You keep saying this. We are well aware. We are also well aware that if rocket guy can dupe FE'rs out of 7k, Dr. Tom Bishop can get even more.

All you need to do is describe what you would use the budget for, how you would go about completing the goals and put up a kickstarter.

[Westprog]

And just to clarify, this is a "Air Map" created by a round earther, but the map is more accurate for flat earth study.

It's a good start. So let's look at flight times. (N.B. this didn't cost me much more than $0 to do the research).

Flight time Los Angeles - London - about 11 hours.
Flight time Santiago - Melbourne (non-stop)  - about 15 hours.

However, the distance between Santiago and Melbourne appears to be about three times as far as between LA and London.

N.b. I know that these are just example times, and that this is well-trodden ground.

[StinkyOne]

Our total annual budget is $0. The allocated cartography budget is $0.

We are already giving out our little free time away from work to discuss a few matters. You aren't paying us. Why do you guys complain so much?

How is asking for some sort of research complaining? You should be thanking us for doing the work of disproving FEH and asking questions. That is an important step in proving a hypothesis correct. If you can't answer the questions, you should seek to find the answers. If you can't, then your hypothesis needs to be revised or scrapped.

[Tontogary]

Ok looking at the chart, the further south you go, the longer the distance round the circumference is, right?

At the North Pole, if you are 1 nautical mile from it and walk east or west, you will travel 6.283185 Nautical miles to get back to your starting point. (PixD) this i am sure everyone agrees upon. FE and RE advocates alike.

Now in that journey you will go through 360 degrees of longitude, or a circle. I am assuming we all agree on that as well!

I think everyone agrees that 1 minute of lattitude equals 1 mile of distance.

At the southern edge of the worl, as described, you are about 70 degrees south, so a total of 160 degrees of lattitude from the North Pole.
Take this calculation further means that you will have 9,600 miles of radius of the circle, so a diameter of 19,200 miles, multiplied by Pi, gives a circumference of 60,318 miles, or 111,710KM! That means from South America to New Zealand, which is shown as an arc of about 110 degrees, or 30.555555556% of the circumference of the world, or to put it another way 18,430 miles. Which is an awful lot further than any commercial airliner flies.

A commercial airliner flies up to about 500 knots, which would mean that the flight time from chile to New Zealand is something in the order of 36 hours according to FE theory!

I have made that voyage, and it is around 4,500 miles in reality, and on a ship doing 17 knots, took us around about 11 days.

If the distance was, as the FEers map might suggest 18,430 miles, it would have taken us 45 days, or to do it in 11 days, would mean we travel at approaching 70 knots, which for a 300M long ship is pretty much impossible.

So i am left with the conclusion that the FE map cannot be correct, as i think i would know if we were doing 70 knots instead of 17.

There are also available on line, and on board, tables of distances between hundreds of different ports, and hundreds of thousands of ships use those tables every year. I use them on a regular basis, and they give me accurate (within 2%) distances when travelling the globe, plus they bear out what we do by multiplying our speed with time taken.

It all adds up to the right answers using a RE model, and Nothing adds up using a FE model. So in practice, we have evidence, experience, and repeatable experiments, using the RE model, yet the FE proponents cannot even show me what the world looks like!

[Tom Bishop]

It doesn't actually require a massive budget, since the distances between the various places on the Earth can be shown to an approximation by air travel times. Obviously this is quite loose, since aircraft have different cruising speeds, and there are issues with the windspeed, but it would be a reasonable sanity check.

One could just spend an occasional afternoon sketching map layouts, and seeing if any of them fit with what is known - or at least, fit nearly as well as with a globe.

Contribute something then, and let your work be critiqued by anyone willing.

It involves the expenditure of slightly more than $0, but it shouldn't run over $20. Certainly cheaper than running a computer, which one assumes the people posting here at least have access to.

Time is money, and we have very few flat earth proponents. We have very little time or desire to do whatever research you personally want done. If you want any research done you will have to do it.

This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement.

If you want anyone to dedicate entire days to perform your own personal experiment or research, that is just not going to happen. We study what we think is interesting, on our own time, if we even want to study anything at all. This is a leisure activity.

this is a forum explicitly labelled "Flat Earth Debate". The idea of a debate is to compare ideas and to show the relative strengths and weaknesses of them. There nobody ever pointed out the weak points of an opponent's arguments.

I am sorry that you were deceived into thinking that you were going to be able to debate or see substantial content. But this is literally just me giving up my 30 minutes a day and a few others who want to do that.

If you want anything done you are going to have to do it.

And the lack of a map of the flat Earth, after having several thousand years to produce one, is a massive hole in the theory. It's an obstacle because without a map, it's not possible to test the theory at all. Meanwhile, we trace distances and routes on the globe, and find that yes, they work.

You are assuming that there have been people trying to make a map for “thousands of years”. That is not so. I don’t think you have looked into what the history of this actually is. There was just Rowbotham who tried to study a map, collected some data showing that Africa was wider than it was long in contradiction to Round Earth Theory, and that’s it. There is no big organization studying a map, or any of this in general. There never was. If you want any study or research it will have to have to come from you.

[Tumeni]

This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement.

Really? You want to draw a line under every post you've made here with this?

Why should anyone place any store, any reliance, any credence on what you've said, when you freely admit to not spending any significant time or effort upon it?

[Macarios]

There was equinox nearly ten days ago.
How much would it cost to roughly measure azimuth of sunrise and sunset and compare values with what would be seen on Flat Earth?

Not so easy to compare, for emotional reasons.

[AATW]

This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement.

You should put that on your home page 

No one is demanding that you do any specific research. I have suggested some things you could do, others have too.
If you don't follow up on any of those then so be it but it's hard to take seriously someone writing a chapter on "the importance of Empiricism" who seems to refuse to do any empirical measurements at all.
We have free, global communications these days. All you'd need to do is get some people to take some observations and measurements of the sun in different places, if the sun is circling (it isn't) a flat plane (it isn't) then that would start to give you some idea of where places are.
If you could form a flat earth model which in any way matched observations then maybe it would be taken more seriously and wouldn't just  be "just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time."

[AATW]

We study what we think is interesting, on our own time, if we even want to study anything at all. This is a leisure activity.

Apologies for the double post but really? You (say you) think that the earth is flat - something which flies in the face of all scientific knowledge and would mean a massive global conspiracy to hide the truth and you don't think this is important? If you had any proof of this, any experiments which actually stood up to scrutiny then this would be revolutionary, it would literally change the world. It's weird that you're not trying a little harder to find some proof to present.

[Tom Bishop]

You should put that on your home page 

The point is that no one is here to research for you. We are not funded or organized for that.

No one is demanding that you do any specific research. I have suggested some things you could do, others have too.
If you don't follow up on any of those then so be it but it's hard to take seriously someone writing a chapter on "the importance of Empiricism" who seems to refuse to do any empirical measurements at all.

We have free, global communications these days. All you'd need to do is get some people to take some observations and measurements of the sun in different places, if the sun is circling (it isn't) a flat plane (it isn't) then that would start to give you some idea of where places are.

Its you and the entire world across all platforms, websites, and media sources demanding experiments of every type. It's just not going to happen unless you make it happen. I'm just here for a little while every day as an act of service and education.

If you could form a flat earth model which in any way matched observations then maybe it would be taken more seriously and wouldn't just  be "just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time."

You are the one who is interested in it. You make some kind of model. You make some theories. I'm putting in the effort I've decided to put in based on my level of interest.