Another Debate Thread
« on: March 14, 2018, 06:40:40 AM »
All of these points are in Earth Not a Globe. Whether you believe it to be right or wrong, I don't understand why you guys don't dive into our literature to see what our actual arguments are before going through the efforts of making Youtube videos and debunking websites. Its not like that book isn't one of the first things that comes up when one starts researching this subject.

Why do I have to be here regurgitating the book every day? The book is free and online. If you are going to make an attack you should address the actual source material, not your personal idea of what FET is.

Because we find huge flaws in observation and comprehension in 'the book' and unfortunately a book is unable to respond to criticism itself.

You appear to be pretty eager to jump in and waffle on, so why bother pretending it's a chore when it's clearly your self appointed mission?

The person who made the video in the OP isn't criticizing Earth Not a Globe. He apparently did not even read Earth Not a Globe.

So you are replying to the person that made the video?

I don't think he's here.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 04:51:22 PM »
Tom: no one is gonna read the junk you suggest because it’s written for brainless morons such as yourself.
Brilliant argument. "Waaah, I won't argue your point because it's wrong and stupid! There, that'll show him!"

Pete: funny how you never voice an opinion of your own.
I do, fairly frequently, usually on radio or in newspapers.

People on here who still have a brain: let’s form a single file line and walk the fuck out of here, leaving these three losers to enjoy their little circle jerk.
I agree wholeheartedly. You and your big-brained friends should get right out of here and back to Reddit.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 05:25:58 PM »
Pete: funny how you never voice an opinion of your own.
I do, fairly frequently, usually on radio or in newspapers.

Geographically, can I ask where these might be found?6
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2018, 09:49:25 AM »
Geographically, can I ask where these might be found?6
Of course not - that would be a nonsensical question in the 21st century.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2018, 11:04:59 AM »
Of course not - that would be a nonsensical question in the 21st century.

You said you voice your opinion in newspapers. I take this to mean print editions. Where are these newspapers printed and published?

You said you voice your opinions on radio. Which radio stations/shows? Where are they broadcast?
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Offline Frocious

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2018, 11:22:58 AM »
Of course not - that would be a nonsensical question in the 21st century.

You said you voice your opinion in newspapers. I take this to mean print editions. Where are these newspapers printed and published?

You said you voice your opinions on radio. Which radio stations/shows? Where are they broadcast?

I think he means you should be able to easily find them yourself using modern technology  (which, ironically, tends to rely on the Earth being round...) but a Google search for "Pete Svarrior newspaper" doesn't pull up much.

The only result listed higher than pages from this very site is from the Boston Globe: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2017/10/28/what-does-take-believe-world-flat/0gdgl2JMPhBpgJK5mGXPkI/amp.html.

I wouldn't want to link to that article if I were Pete.


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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2018, 11:31:18 AM »
You said you voice your opinion in newspapers. I take this to mean print editions.
That's pretty silly of you. I guess there was that one El País Semanal article that didn't make it to the online publication, but generally speaking it's a terrible assumption to make in 2018.

Where are these newspapers printed and published?
You should probably ask the individual outlets. They'll be able to provide you with more details.

You said you voice your opinions on radio. Which radio stations/shows? Where are they broadcast?
You really struggle with Google, don't you?

a Google search for "Pete Svarrior newspaper" doesn't pull up much
Yes, I don't think many articles I contributed towards contained the word "newspaper". Why have you expected anything else to be the case?

I wouldn't want to link to that article if I were Pete.
I already have, quite prominently, back when the article was relatively recent. It's also featured in my little "in the media" post in FEIR.

But, of course, the core of your criticism here is that you don't think it helps our cause. Fundamentally, this is what RE'ers don't get. We don't care what you think helps us. Our strategy works, and our growth has been well-documented.

Yes, you disagree with me. Good job. It changes nothing for us, since you're not our target audience.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 11:34:37 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2018, 01:32:41 PM »
This sums up that article quite well

Quote
Like climate-change denial and anti-vaccination activism, flat-earthism depends more on the personalities and motives of its adherents than on any scientific facts. It’s an elaborate exercise in confirmation bias — a willful refusal to accept collective knowledge about how things really work.

There's also a lot of cognitive dissonance going on too, Pete's obviously a little too pleased about his "fame" and Tom has his whole identity wrapped up in FE.
I suspect at some level they know they're wrong but can't quite bring themselves to admit it to themselves.
It's an interesting psychology.

There has certainly been a growth in media attention, a lot of the people signing up here though are round earthers doing so to shake their head in wonder at people in the 21st century believing this stuff. It will never become a main stream view because, well, it's wrong and demonstrably so. The model outlined in the Wiki doesn't stand up to the most basic scrutiny.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2018, 02:01:33 PM »
Pete's obviously a little too pleased about his "fame" and Tom has his whole identity wrapped up in FE.
Alternatively, we don't talk about things that don't have much to do with this community here. Why would we? Surely you understand that life extends much further than forum.tfes.org. Just look around - this conversation started with an Obvious alt complaining about the fact that I don't post here enough for his liking.

Sure, I'm both pleased with and proud of my contributions to this movement. Why wouldn't I be?

In the end, it's all the same. RE'er newcomers (or, worse, permanoobs) coming here and trying to tell us how we should run our community, getting either upset or fascinated by the fact that we're not obliging.

It will never become a main stream view because, well, it's wrong and demonstrably so. The model outlined in the Wiki doesn't stand up to the most basic scrutiny.
Cling on to that position if you must, but just restating that over and over is going to do little to turn the tide in your favour.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 02:05:44 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Frocious

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2018, 02:13:21 PM »
You said you voice your opinion in newspapers. I take this to mean print editions.
That's pretty silly of you. I guess there was that one El País Semanal article that didn't make it to the online publication, but generally speaking it's a terrible assumption to make in 2018.

Where are these newspapers printed and published?
You should probably ask the individual outlets. They'll be able to provide you with more details.

You said you voice your opinions on radio. Which radio stations/shows? Where are they broadcast?
You really struggle with Google, don't you?

a Google search for "Pete Svarrior newspaper" doesn't pull up much
Yes, I don't think many articles I contributed towards contained the word "newspaper". Why have you expected anything else to be the case?

I wouldn't want to link to that article if I were Pete.
I already have, quite prominently, back when the article was relatively recent. It's also featured in my little "in the media" post in FEIR.

But, of course, the core of your criticism here is that you don't think it helps our cause. Fundamentally, this is what RE'ers don't get. We don't care what you think helps us. Our strategy works, and our growth has been well-documented.

Yes, you disagree with me. Good job. It changes nothing for us, since you're not our target audience.

I would expect it to be the case as you explicitly stated that your opinion can be found in newspapers. And,  as evidenced by the Boston Globe article showing up,  Google understands my inquiry.

But don't worry -- searching "Pete Svarrior" on its own does pull up more results. Two of them. One from the LAD Bible, whatver that is, and one from Buzzfeed. Neither of which are newspapers. I think, at least. I am not sure what sort of news source the LAD Bible is.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 02:18:27 PM by Frocious »

Offline Frocious

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2018, 02:17:45 PM »
Cling on to that position if you must, but just restating that over and over is going to do little to turn the tide in your favour.

You're right -- saying that it doesn't line up doesn't disprove FET. It's that dang ol dastardly evidence (or lack thereof in your case) that does.

Perhaps you can answer the flight path question that is routinely ignored around here?

Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2018, 02:22:47 PM »
Cling on to that position if you must, but just restating that over and over is going to do little to turn the tide in your favour.
It's you (plural) who are clinging to an untenable position.
You (plural) repeatedly fail to address the gaping holes pointed out in your model.
You can say that because we don't understand your model well, fine. Point us in the right direction then.
I've started threads based on Wiki pages pointing out issues which have been largely ignored.

Just take one thing: 24 hour sun in Antarctica. Your model simply can't explain that.
I'm not entirely convinced you lot really believe your own model, I think you're just enjoying the attention and, to an extent, fair enough.
What is the point of these boards though? Is it to educate us poor sap REtards? Is it to debate the FE model amongst yourselves?
I don't see either of these going on so what is the intention?
It is just for the lolz?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2018, 02:31:40 PM »
Our strategy works, and our growth has been well-documented.

Cling on to that position if you must, but just restating that over and over is going to do little to turn the tide in your favour.
I'm confused by these words. What 'tide' are you talking about? You yourself have stated you have no idea how much it's grown. That doesn't seem well documented to me. There was a rather idiotic post in the other forums about how many FE believers there are now based on Google search results or something, which clearly has no basis in evidence. I've seen, well frankly close to zero new FE believers in the course of the last year, counting BOTH sites. At least that seemed serious about it rather than being one off accounts of some form. The only measure I'm aware of that you have is it's getting more attention. Which means nothing in regards to more believing it. So where is this 'well documented' 'tide' you're talking about?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2018, 02:42:45 PM »
I would expect it to be the case as you explicitly stated that your opinion can be found in newspapers. And,  as evidenced by the Boston Globe article showing up,  Google understands my inquiry.

But don't worry -- searching "Pete Svarrior" on its own does pull up more results. Two of them. One from the LAD Bible, whatver that is, and one from Buzzfeed. Neither of which are newspapers. I think, at least. I am not sure what sort of news source the LAD Bible is.
Hey, you're making progress. Keep it up! You may yet reach the IBT.

It's you (plural) who are clinging to an untenable position.
Yeah, yeah, you think we're wrong. Brilliant.

What is the point of these boards though? Is it to educate us poor sap REtards? Is it to debate the FE model amongst yourselves?
See, this is the issue here. You lot are trying to tell us how to do our thing, but you don't even know what our thing is. So once more for those in the back row: The Flat Earth Society exists to popularise and promote the Flat Earth Theory worldwide, as well as document and archive its history. These are tasks we're doing very well at (don't take it from me, take it from The Economist, for a quick example), regardless of your strong opinions to the contrary. Some of us take it one step further and promote a particularly far-reaching form of scepticism/Zeteticism, one which very strongly relies on personal experiences and empiricism.

We have little interest in educating people against their will. There are plenty of those who wish to learn, or have a rational discussion.

This forum, specifically, exists as a place for like-minded individuals to meet and talk about the Flat Earth, or anything else they'd like to, really. Again, if you filter out Youtube/Reddit "sceptics" who come here to marvel at just how strongly they disagree with us (What a pastime!) or to demand answers to questions they could have simply Googled, this works rather well. We don't much mind your presence so long as you behave, but most of us also have very little interest in catering to you.

You yourself have stated you have no idea how much it's grown.
That's a particularly selective description of my position. It is very difficult to gauge the numbers, and even more difficult to speak about them publicly, given how many people wish to remain anonymous out of fear for their safety. It is, however, easily proven that we're growing, and that this growth is accelerating.

There was a rather idiotic post in the other forums about how many FE believers there are now based on Google search results or something, which clearly has no basis in evidence.
Either you're referring to my Google Analytics post explaining that our site is becoming more and more prominent over time (which has nothing to do with how you described it), or you're trying to get me to defend some random person's claims (which I have no interest in).

I've seen, well frankly close to zero new FE believers in the course of the last year, counting BOTH sites.
That sounds like a personal problem. You also senselessly assume that every new Flat Earther will come to this forum to rant and rave about it.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 03:27:49 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 04:01:35 PM »
You yourself have stated you have no idea how much it's grown.
That's a particularly selective description of my position. It is very difficult to gauge the numbers, and even more difficult to speak about them publicly, given how many people wish to remain anonymous out of fear for their safety. It is, however, easily proven that we're growing, and that this growth is accelerating.
Oh? Any chance of doing that? I'm sorry you feel it's selective, I thought I was being quite true to your position. You believe it's grown, but are unsure by how much exactly. Which you have once again quite clearly stated here.

There was a rather idiotic post in the other forums about how many FE believers there are now based on Google search results or something, which clearly has no basis in evidence.
Either you're referring to my Google Analytics post explaining that our site is becoming more and more prominent over time (which has nothing to do with how you described it), or you're trying to get me to defend some random person's claims (which I have no interest in).
Apologies, this was more idle musing than anything. He was using Google search results and comparing the numbers to religions and their stated number of believers in an attempt to guess the number of FE believers. It was a very poor metric. I was simply thinking out loud as it were on what I had seen for people attempting to guess the number of believers, and I believe this was the only thing I've seen. There was no attempt to ask you to defend it.

I've seen, well frankly close to zero new FE believers in the course of the last year, counting BOTH sites.
That sounds like a personal problem. You also senselessly assume that every new Flat Earther will come to this forum to rant and rave about it.
[/quote]
I would never assume such a thing, but there should be at least some percentage. I'm not sure what you mean by 'personal problem' here either other than attempting to dismiss the observation in some way. Which is all that was, an observation. Does that mean I'm right? Certainly not. I know I only stick to roughly three fora on each site. But there should be at least some segment that sticks around past a few posts. That's just statistical probability. There has not been that I can recall seeing for the FE side. Strange when you talk about a growing 'tide' of support. At least in my mind.

Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2018, 04:12:12 PM »
Yeah, yeah, you think we're wrong. Brilliant.
No, no. Not "think". That implies some doubt.  ;)

Quote
See, this is the issue here. You lot are trying to tell us how to do our thing, but you don't even know what our thing is. So once more for those in the back row: The Flat Earth Society exists to popularise and promote the Flat Earth Theory worldwide, as well as document and archive its history.
I see. I think you're giving yourselves a little too much credit though, the main spikes of activity in that graph in the Economist are correlated with idiot celebrities expressing some flat earth views rather than anything you're doing. There has certainly been increasing interest in FE - I have become interested in it. But a lot of it is bemused shaking of heads rather than you winning the argument.

Quote
We have little interest in educating people against their will. There are plenty of those who wish to learn, or have a rational discussion.
I am interested in your opinions. I really am. That's why I ask questions. I want to have rational discussion. I've started a couple of threads pointing out what I see as glaring holes in your model - the model as outlined in your Wiki. They've got little or no FE response. Now, you don't have to respond of course, but what is the point of these boards if you're not going to engage in these discussions? If it's a question you've answered a million times before then maybe you should update your Wiki because that is generally my starting point.

Quote
This forum, specifically, exists as a place for like-minded individuals to meet and talk about the Flat Earth
I see almost none of that on here. Almost every thread is started by a round earther asking questions or picking holes in the FE model.
I don't expect you cater to me, but if you're going to have a section called Flat Earth Debate then some of you lot could engage in the debate.
If you don't want to then fine, but if you're that sure of your model (as discussed, I have a feeling you know it doesn't work and are just in it for the fun of it or because you like feeling just a little bit famous) then you should have answers to these things.

I did Google 24 hour sun at Antarctica by the way and I found a YouTube video so crazy it really wasn't worthy of comment - in brief, it theorised 2 suns...
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2018, 04:21:17 PM »
I am interested in your opinions. I really am. That's why I ask questions. I want to have rational discussion. I've started a couple of threads pointing out what I see as glaring holes in your model - the model as outlined in your Wiki.
Well, there you go again. You think we're wrong. That's awesome, good for you.

And no, thinking does not imply doubting.

I see almost none of that on here. Almost every thread is started by a round earther asking questions or picking holes in the FE model.
You're looking in the wrong places, and I have to say I quite like it that way.

I don't expect you cater to me, but if you're going to have a section called Flat Earth Debate then some of you lot could engage in the debate.
We do, when said debate interests us. It's just that your particular sub-demographic has very little to offer to us, and it does take (at least) two to tango. You just try to come up with "gotcha!" threads, and then collectively shake each other's hands over just how smart each of you are. Honestly, it's just boring. I sincerely doubt you would engage people who behave like that either, if you didn't already agree with them.

Personally, I try not to engage threads like this, though I did break that boundary on occasion. Usually when the opposing argument is particularly stupid and thus fun to slowly dismantle. Personal enjoyment really is the name of the game when it comes to these discussions. Why would I do something I won't enjoy in my free time, when instead I could do something fun or productive?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 04:29:01 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2018, 04:29:33 PM »

The Flat Earth Society exists to popularise and promote the Flat Earth Theory worldwide, as well as document and archive its history. These are tasks we're doing very well at (don't take it from me, take it from The Economist, for a quick example),
......
Some of us take it one step further and promote a particularly far-reaching form of scepticism/Zeteticism, one which very strongly relies on personal experiences and empiricism.
......
There are plenty of those who wish to learn, or have a rational discussion.
........
This forum, specifically, exists as a place for like-minded individuals to meet and talk about the Flat Earth
............
 or to demand answers to questions they could have simply Googled, this works rather well.
..........
people wish to remain anonymous out of fear for their safety. It is, however, easily proven that we're growing, and that this growth is accelerating.

The Economist? Surprised you are quoting them as a reliable source. You believe their stats on your numbers, but not their stats on everything else with the world. They ridicule your position, call it a conspiracy theory and point out that such things are more popular among less-educated people. Are you endorsing this?

Re the growth in Google searches - this does not necessarily indicate growth in belief. It is just as likely the search increase is down to growing awareness and astonishment among the wider populace that such prehistoric beliefs exist. The Economist article itself will likely drive searches, but highly unlikely to drive belief.

Re your stated purpose to popularize and promote FE Theory, but not existing just to provide answers to questions people could Google - this is where this site and the FES generally fail. The FES consistently fail to answer questions that are continually raised and not answered on the Wiki (...comparative flight times between Sydney and other parts of the world....?) and failing to do this means you undermine your own purpose. How can you expect to popularize and promote FE theory if you do not engage in answering people's valid issues? It comes across as evasive and disingenuous.

Typical answers on this site are "Read the wiki!". It gives the impression the FES is quite happy being a closed shop - you don't even see debate or questions amongst FES members themselves, as though all the FES positions are completely settled. You like to portray yourselves as the true questioners and everyone else as having closed minds, yet the only questions I see on this site are from non-FEers. The pursuit of knowledge and understanding of reality is built on questions and debate, but the FES appears satisfied in its ignorance, satisfied in its inability to explain perceived realities, satisfied in its reliance on untested unexplained phenomenon that FE must depend on, satisfied in its lack of even producing a practical map.

The FES is very happy in itself actually, doesn't care about popularity and doesn't intend to do anything about it other than to advertise its existence with a smug "Look at us - we're so clever and the rest of you are mindless drones, and anyone who questions us doesn't deserve to be in our gang anyway." I joined this site expecting lively debate and genuine engagement, but was met with obfuscation. I am no closer to understanding belief in Flat Earth, but have a new-found understanding of black holes.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2018, 04:41:54 PM »
You said you voice your opinion in newspapers. I take this to mean print editions.
That's pretty silly of you. I guess there was that one El País Semanal article that didn't make it to the online publication, but generally speaking it's a terrible assumption to make in 2018.

Maybe I'm naive, but I was sorta expecting that you might state something along the lines of "I was on the letters page of The Guardian in Feb 2007, and had an article in The Times in Dec 2012 ...."

But it seems that you can't cite more than one instance where your work has been published.


Where are these newspapers printed and published?
You should probably ask the individual outlets. They'll be able to provide you with more details.

Again, I was expecting that you would be able to tell me in which publications you had been published.


You said you voice your opinions on radio. Which radio stations/shows? Where are they broadcast?
You really struggle with Google, don't you?

Again, I expected something along the lines of "I was on The Jeremy Vine Show in Dec 2014, and on the Jimmy Young show earlier that year", but evidently you can't recall when you were on the radio


Why can't you give a straightforward answer to a straightforward question?  I ask when and where you were on the radio or in a newspaper, and you just reply with when and where?

« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 04:44:42 PM by Tumeni »
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Another Debate Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2018, 04:43:38 PM »
Yeah, yeah, all of you flyby RE'ers have a much better idea on how to promote the Flat Earth Society, despite having no understanding of the FES or FET. Your thoughts have been filed and catalogued. I'll carry on doing my thing because it works. I am so, so sorry that your expectations were not blindly catered to.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 04:47:28 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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