*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9932
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2018, 01:50:55 PM »
Pete, I have no idea where you got an accuracy of 500m-1km from
Personal observation and experimentation, of course. That's why I encouraged others to do the same.

As this is an argument about the existence of GPS, and not accuracy
Sorry, I'm not gonna let you change the subject of this conversation.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2018, 01:59:31 PM »
Pete, I have no idea where you got an accuracy of 500m-1km from
Personal observation and experimentation, of course. That's why I encouraged others to do the same.

As this is an argument about the existence of GPS, and not accuracy
Sorry, I'm not gonna let you change the subject of this conversation.

The topic of conversation is supposed to be about the existence of GPS and whether the USAF who operate it knowingly keep the shape of the Earth secret from NASA (The wiki states NASA do not know the earth is flat - they just present it as round because they expect it to be). You seem to be indicating that it isn't what it says it is, in which case what do you think it is?
The fundamental point is about what GPS is, not the level of its accuracy. Are you afraid of answering the question?

Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2018, 02:02:05 PM »
Pete, I have no idea where you got an accuracy of 500m-1km from
Personal observation and experimentation, of course. That's why I encouraged others to do the same.

As this is an argument about the existence of GPS, and not accuracy
Sorry, I'm not gonna let you change the subject of this conversation.
Please provide details, this is not my experience of using GPS.  We are discussing position accuracy, not distance calculations.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9932
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2018, 02:22:35 PM »
whether the USAF who operate it knowingly keep the shape of the Earth secret from NASA
No.

We are discussing position accuracy, not distance calculations.
Indeed.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2018, 02:33:24 PM »
whether the USAF who operate it knowingly keep the shape of the Earth secret from NASA
No.

We are discussing position accuracy, not distance calculations.
Indeed.
So please provide your details of where you got an accuracy of 500m-1km from.  GPS receivers give the accuracy of the location.

Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2018, 02:36:37 PM »
whether the USAF who operate it knowingly keep the shape of the Earth secret from NASA
No.

Thanks for the response. So if the USAF are not knowingly keeping the shape secret, that follows that you believe they either don't know about the shape of the Earth or incorrectly believe it to be round. So do you think they are lying about what GPS is (because they didn't launch satellites etc.)? If so, then what do you think it is?

Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2018, 01:34:23 AM »
I do note that you immediately backtracked
Not, I am simply stating that GPS works well in aviation and is approved as primary means of navigation. 4,000,000,000 air passengers with zero deaths, with many approaches into mountainous terrain is something that is hard to overlook, unless one chooses to be blind, ignorant, deliberately put on too many blinkers.

You should remember that, for obvious reasons, GPS precision will drop dramatically as you approach the mountain.
This is actually untrue and contrary to Flat Earth Empirical Evidence guidelines. The alternative means of navigation are: Non-Directional Beacons (NDB), or VOR's. They are proven to drop dramatically in precision as you approach the mountain, where as GPS maintains it accuracy as proven in aviation.
Well, then you disagree with the creators of GPS. Can't help you there.
You are overconfident in alternative means of navigation (I'm not sure which you propose) and ignoring the empirically proven higher accuracy of GPS, when compared head-to-head, particularly in mountainous terrain.

but you advise using NTP with has an accuracy of 1 ms at best???
Again, no. I suggest NTP as a much more practical source of time. And, again, you decided to fudge the numbers in your favour.
No, it is extremely unpractical to use NTP as a source of time anywhere outside, on the water, in the air or anywhere remote. Further NTP is useless if you want an extremely precise time as I reiterate that is in the regions of nanoseconds. NTP simply does not offer that kind of precision where GPS does. And very cheaply too, without wires.

No, I'm not talking about the Moon
Neither am I.
Yes you brought the Moon up, and I have no idea why you brought the Moon into the discussion??? I'll quote you:
your figures appear to have been sourced from the Moon
My question is, what does the moon have to do with this as we are talking about tangible, physical Printed Circuit Board that produce a time that is accurate to within 15 ns, and can be bought very cheaply at that: https://novotech.com/Products/gps-timing/Trimble/modules, specification: http://www.trimble.com/Timing/RES-SMT-360.aspx

Pete, are you aware that GPS is used in various applications to generate an extremely precise time?
I already answered this question. Asking it again is unlikely to help.
No you did not answer this question, all you did was post a strawman about how NTP is a "practical method". I'm happy to read between the lines and conclude that 'you are not aware that GPS is used in various applications to generate an extremely precise time'. I hope I have brought some awareness and I have pointed to a cheap product that will enable you to see it for yourself, should you wish to do so. As Flat Earthers we always would like to determine the facts for ourselves, but to refuse to establish the facts even if there are cheap methods available, that is simply being flippant about our cause.

So I ask you, what defines a 'well' working navigation system for you? It's obviously a very vague term. In the Middle Ages the way sail ships navigated worked "well", in the sixties navigation by NDB (non-directional radio beacons) worked well, or dead-reckoning. However these days we wouldn't even consider these inaccurate methods if we can avoid it.
This is also a question I already answered. The contention is covered within the first two posts of this thread. You can pick one of the two sides presented there, or introduce your own.
This is again flippant towards proper Flat Earth empirical principles. It is not about choosing sides at all. I almost can't believe you saying this because you seem like a true FE-er to me. What it is about is determining the facts for ourselves, and therewith the undeniable truth.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 02:03:47 AM by Treep Ravisarras »
As the saying goes "The internet belongs to the lunatics in their walled gardens" - Xiang Yu

I see a Flat Earth. And I can't imagine anything else.

I got work to do. 0.00018% of Christians believe in a Flat Earth. Pls help

Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2018, 10:53:40 AM »
Pete, I have no idea where you got an accuracy of 500m-1km from
Personal observation and experimentation, of course. That's why I encouraged others to do the same.
Found some random sign put up by the government. Was called Commemorative Permanent Survey Mark. Being proper flat earther of course decided to experiment to see what is was about. After all our knowledge is gained by what we see and observe, nothing otherwise.

Sign


Permanent mark in ground


Sign says
Latitude South 17° 16' 06.42"   Longitude East 145° 29' 39.21"



Mobile phone says
Latitude South 17° 16' 06.40"   Longitude East 145° 29' 39.13"   Using app called theodolite. Great

Difference between those points is 2.4m using simple mathematics according to this website

Also checked with app called Commander Compass



Says 17°16'06" South, East 145°29'39"

No worries. Very accurate as I know from aviation, but nevertheless interesting. A device in our pocket that tells us our position to 2.4m accurate to some random sign put up by the government. That is quite something.

Flat Earth or not I think we can all agree there is no device that will tell us our position more accurate that a gps device. Now how it works...? Round Earth says satellites. Flat Earth says I don't know.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 11:16:59 AM by Treep Ravisaras »
As the saying goes "The internet belongs to the lunatics in their walled gardens" - Xiang Yu

I see a Flat Earth. And I can't imagine anything else.

I got work to do. 0.00018% of Christians believe in a Flat Earth. Pls help

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9932
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2018, 11:25:39 AM »
Being proper flat earther of course decided to experiment to see what is was about.
Your schtick is extremely transparent, as always. Nobody is questioning that GPS works in certain areas, and that it can, on occasion, be accurate.

Flat Earth or not I think we can all agree there is no device that will tell us our position more accurate that a gps device
No, we won't agree on that. I already named methods which are far more accurate in most contexts (and which, coincidentally, you keep using and misattributing to GPS - your iPhone 7 is a poor choice of equipment for this discussion).
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 11:30:35 AM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

Offline StinkyOne

  • *
  • Posts: 805
    • View Profile
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2018, 12:18:10 PM »
Your schtick is extremely transparent, as always. Nobody is questioning that GPS works in certain areas, and that it can, on occasion, be accurate.

Would you mind telling us where, beyond the obvious non-line of sight to the sky, GPS doesn't work? Also, can you show GPS being inaccurate more often than it is accurate? You make a ridiculous claim, would love to see some data on it. Otherwise, it is just your uninformed opinion.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Offline Tontogary

  • *
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2018, 12:23:03 PM »
I use GPS almost every day of my life.

At work, on my ship we use multiple receivers, not always linked together, and the accuracy is very very good. Within 10m.

We have professional units, 2 independent units, we also have units in our comms systems, and speed logs, as well as in our echo sounder, and distress systems. All work just fine, ALL the time.

Our units also detect RAIM, and will track upwards of 12 satellites, giving azimuth and elevation, signal strength and health of each sat.

As water covers just about 70% of the planet, and i have been to an awful lot of it, (except high arctic) I find it works extremely well over water, and by definition that is over the vast majority of the planet. I would be interested to know where over particular places it does not work well?

Considering we can be thousands of miles from the nearest cell phone tower, I am pretty confident that they do not use cell phone signals to provide a position, and guess what? My cell phone (with weeks of not receiving a signal) with no WiFi or data or internet can tell me where i am on the ocean pretty well as well, so i do not dispute its accuracy.

We use ECDIS (electronic charts) with Primary and secondary means of position fixing as GPS, we do not carry Loran, Decca, ( in fact they were decommissioned years ago) but we can put in manual positions from radar fixes (only good if you are within 24 miles or so of land) and celestial observations.

Millions of ships use the same systems.
If they are not accurate why do we not go aground or hit things more often?

Also how do we find our position in the middle of the ocean?
I have yet to see radio beacons in the ocean, and am pretty certain we would keep on bumping into them if they were there, and uncharted and unlit at night. Yes we do navigate at night, and No we dont have headlights.......
The question remains from the OP,
HOW DOES GPS WORK?

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9932
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2018, 12:24:16 PM »
Would you mind telling us where, beyond the obvious non-line of sight to the sky, GPS doesn't work?
No - I'm not interested in defending things I didn't claim in the first place.

You make a ridiculous claim, would love to see some data on it.
I already provided an explanation of how positioning systems work in relatively populated areas. I can't help you "see" it any more than that.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

Offline StinkyOne

  • *
  • Posts: 805
    • View Profile
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2018, 01:54:32 PM »
I already provided an explanation of how positioning systems work in relatively populated areas. I can't help you "see" it any more than that.

No, you tried to obfuscate the issue. Yes, cell phones do augment GPS data, so we should throw that out. While we are at it, let's ditch cell phones all together. Let's focus on GPS devices in remote areas. They work and are extremely accurate. No way to muddy those waters. Unless you can show them being wholly inaccurate a large percentage of the time, your claim is mere opinion.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9932
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #73 on: April 20, 2018, 01:59:30 PM »
While we are at it, let's ditch cell phones all together. Let's focus on GPS devices in remote areas.
Thanks. Geez, that took a struggle for you to concede.

your claim is mere opinion.
Indeed. All I can offer you is my experience and empirical inquiry - and I care little for anything else. You are welcome to discard it carte blanche, but you'll achieve nothing other than stalling the conversation.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

*

Offline Stagiri

  • *
  • Posts: 146
  • You can call me Peter
    • View Profile
    • Stagiri Blog
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #74 on: April 20, 2018, 02:01:49 PM »
Would you mind telling us where, beyond the obvious non-line of sight to the sky, GPS doesn't work?
No - I'm not interested in defending things I didn't claim in the first place (...)

(...) Nobody is questioning that GPS works in certain areas, (...)
Dr Rowbotham was accurate in his experiments.
How do you know without repeating them?
Because they don't need to be repeated, they were correct.

Offline Tontogary

  • *
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #75 on: April 20, 2018, 02:16:06 PM »
While we are at it, let's ditch cell phones all together. Let's focus on GPS devices in remote areas.
Thanks. Geez, that took a struggle for you to concede.

your claim is mere opinion.
Indeed. All I can offer you is my experience and empirical inquiry - and I care little for anything else. You are welcome to discard it carte blanche, but you'll achieve nothing other than stalling the conversation.

And i offered my empirical evidence, or observations over the last 20+ years of using GPS at sea. Where the overwhelming majority of the world it works just as it should, and very well thank you.
It calculates distances very well, and speeds accurately (to as good as 0.1Knot) so it works, some ships even use it as a back up to a compass. The position of the bow and the position of the bridge are taken with different antennas and the bearing between them is calculated, giving the heading. They are permitted under international maritime Organisation rules. And they work!

BUT if satellites are not in orbit HOW does it all work? A basic principle would be nice, other than radio masts, or some other generic statement, at least a basic principle;e would give me some understanding.

4 pages of posts and still no one is able to offer an explanation other than the official explanation of time difference between the satellite and the receiver. That gives one position line (actually a circle) but give 2 satellites, and you get an intersection of the lines (hopefully) well 2 intersections, 3 satellites, more intersections, eventually resolving more and more accurately the position.
That’s the “official” line.

If there are no satellites, how do my magic boxes spit out positions, and range and bearing to other positions, as well as a whole host of other things.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 9932
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2018, 02:50:34 PM »
[quoting me back]
My apologies - I forgot that you guys will jump at even the smallest error in phrasing. Of course, I intended to remain consistent in my assertion that GPS doesn't work well in certain areas. I elaborated on this quite a lot, and so it should be rather easy to infer. But hey, congratulations, at the low-low cost of outing yourself as intellectually dishonest, you got one up on me.

And i offered my empirical evidence, or observations over the last 20+ years of using GPS at sea.
That's okay. You are more than welcome to have your own opinion. It appears to be irreproducible, and thus I won't pay much attention to it, but I also won't try to convince you otherwise.

That said, given the trend of """sailors""" who come here, I reserve my right to doubt that you're the first one here not to lie about your experience.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!


*mic stays stationary and earth accelerates upwards towards it*

Offline hexagon

  • *
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2018, 02:52:01 PM »
You are waiting since 4 pages of discussion for an answer, because there can't be an answer. GPS is a quite straight forward, coherent concept. In the best case you can get some alternative explanations that work in some special areas, e.g. for cities and so on. But you will never be able to find a equivalent coherent explanation.

But that's the fundamental problem of the whole flat earth idea. Of course you can always find alternative explanations for certain aspects, but they soon start to contradict each other and then you have to introduce more and more assumptions. In the end the whole idea is based on a single observation, that the earth looks flat if you are looking out of your window. That's all. But already if you look out of your window and you try to imagine how a hypothetical flat earth would look, you would notice that it would be quite different from what you actually see.

The core challenge for a flat earth believer is to find explanations why a flat earth looks like a round earth, and everything that exist on this flat earth behaves like the earth would be round. You have to twist and bend everything so that it fits, but can't. If you solve one problem, another appears. It's for the same reason you have so many different types of maps, you cannot transform a 3D object into a 2D one without distortions. You can find a suitable solution for a map, that represents a certain aspect quite well and another that fits better to something else.

And that's not only true for maps. Everything works different, looks different and is experienced differently on a 3D world compared to a (functional) 2D world.       

*

Offline Stagiri

  • *
  • Posts: 146
  • You can call me Peter
    • View Profile
    • Stagiri Blog
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2018, 03:09:09 PM »
[quoting me back]
My apologies - I forgot that you guys will jump at even the smallest error in phrasing. Of course, I intended to remain consistent in my assertion that GPS doesn't work well in certain areas. I elaborated on this quite a lot, and so it should be rather easy to infer. But hey, congratulations, at the low-low cost of outing yourself as intellectually dishonest, you got one up on me. (...)

That wasn't my intention at all. I just wanted to point out the reason why StinkyOne asked you what he asked.
Sorry for this misunderstading, I probably didn't express myself clearly enough. I'll try to correct that next time.
Dr Rowbotham was accurate in his experiments.
How do you know without repeating them?
Because they don't need to be repeated, they were correct.

Offline Tontogary

  • *
  • Posts: 431
    • View Profile
Re: FET and Global Positioning System
« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2018, 03:32:46 PM »
[quoting me back]
My apologies - I forgot that you guys will jump at even the smallest error in phrasing. Of course, I intended to remain consistent in my assertion that GPS doesn't work well in certain areas. I elaborated on this quite a lot, and so it should be rather easy to infer. But hey, congratulations, at the low-low cost of outing yourself as intellectually dishonest, you got one up on me.

And i offered my empirical evidence, or observations over the last 20+ years of using GPS at sea.
That's okay. You are more than welcome to have your own opinion. It appears to be irreproducible, and thus I won't pay much attention to it, but I also won't try to convince you otherwise.

That said, given the trend of """sailors""" who come here, I reserve my right to doubt that you're the first one here not to lie about your experience.
[quoting me back]
My apologies - I forgot that you guys will jump at even the smallest error in phrasing. Of course, I intended to remain consistent in my assertion that GPS doesn't work well in certain areas. I elaborated on this quite a lot, and so it should be rather easy to infer. But hey, congratulations, at the low-low cost of outing yourself as intellectually dishonest, you got one up on me.


That said, given the trend of """sailors""" who come here, I reserve my right to doubt that you're the first one here not to lie about your experience.

You seem to insult my professional integrity? I am who i say i am, i have posted my credentials, and also note that i said i am a seafarer, NOT Sailor. We are a different breed. I work for a living, and have no reason to lie. I dont need to, All i have posted on these boards has been direct observations or direct experiences.

Your limited experience with GPS does not seem to qualify you are a heavy user of the equipment, and most likely not seen it work in as many places as myself, and as it is a part of my professional life, so Iwill pretty much be able to discount your comments, as you seem to pay none to others experiences.

So removing Petes unsubstantiated and most likely amateurish is of GPS, then the we can get back on track and try to determine how GPS works?

Or are we going to get a few more insults thrown around to try to push the thread off topic?

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.