Offline 3DGeek

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Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« on: September 13, 2017, 01:42:56 PM »
Thanks to StinkyOne for coming up with this idea - it's a VERY clever disproof of the flat earth...one that I'd never have thought of.   As provided, his (her?) disproof only applies to the unipolar map (which Tom says is incorrect - but which has far fewer conceptual difficulties than the bipolar map) - but we can extend the argument to disprove the bipolar map too.

Let's start simple with our odoriferous friend's original complaint - we'll get to the bipolar map in a moment:

In the unipolar FE map, the area of what would be the Northern hemisphere in RET is much MUCH smaller than the area of the Southern hemisphere.

The equator is midway between North Pole and Ice Wall.   So the area of the northern "hemiplane" is just one quarter of the entire surface area of the habitable disk (pi-r-squared and all that!) and the southern hemiplane is three-quarters of the area.

Since the sun is very close to the ground (relatively compared to RET) - and we know it spends the same amount of time over the Northern hemiplane as the Southern (average day lengths are the same), it must be spreading it's energy over a MUCH larger area in the South than in the North...three times as much in fact.

The "flashlight" sun must be changing the width of it's beam to make that happen (please do tell us how it "knows" to do that!) - and that spreads the sun's energy over larger areas in the south and smaller areas in the north.   The average total energy per square mile in the South would have to be one third of what it is in the North.

Hence, the further South you go, the colder it should become because the sunlight is so spread out.   In fact, we can extend this argument by each latitudinal band and show that the North Pole would melt - and the entire Southern hemiplane would freeze solid.

OK - but the unipolar map (despite being STILL the only one on the Wiki - and STILL the one that almost all FE'ers refer to) is not favored by everyone.

So what about the newer (bipolar) map?

It kinda fixes StinkyOne's original complaint by splitting the world into two precisely equal hemiplanes - but even so, the areas of the oceans are very much larger than in RET.

But the sunrise and sunset times across the world are a perfect match for what RET predicts...so the sun must speed up over these large areas of open ocean and slow down over the land - or more generally, it's speed over areas where the FE map stretches the Lat/Long grid (compared to RET) must increase compared to areas where the lat/long grid is compressed.   Quite how the sun "knows" to do this is something of a mystery - but since nobody will tell us how the sun moves exactly - and what makes it do this complicated dance just to make it seem like the earth is round - well that's beyond comprehension.   However, this is what we're told.

This leaves us with two possibilities:

1) The Sun spends more time over the oceans than the land and sunrise and sunset times that we see in the south are WRONG.
...OR...
2) The sun speeds up over the oceans and therefore each square mile of southern ocean gets less sunlight than we'd expect and the oceans would freeze.

This is actually a VERY hard argument for the FE'ers to defeat.

To produce the correct sunrise and sunset times, the sun must cross 360 lines of latitude in 24 hours at a steady rate of one degree every minute - but if it does that and the lines are not equally spaced everywhere (which is IMPOSSIBLE in an FE map) - then some parts of the world will freeze and/or other parts will boil.

There is really no escaping that.

Nicely played StinkyOne!

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 02:23:02 PM »
Thank you, I stumble across a good idea every now and then.

I can see Tom posting about his stretchy mile concept that he tried to use in the airliner thread. Let's suppose Tom is correct (and that I understand him correctly) and a mile isn't always the same due to some unseen geometric distortion. I'd be willing to wager a large sum of money that if you distorted the distances in the "hemiplanes" to account for the speed of the Sun/length of the day, the resulting geometry sans imaginary distortion would fit very nicely on an oblate spheroid. In fact, it would literally pull itself into a spherical shape.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 03:22:35 PM »
Thank you, I stumble across a good idea every now and then.

I can see Tom posting about his stretchy mile concept that he tried to use in the airliner thread. Let's suppose Tom is correct (and that I understand him correctly) and a mile isn't always the same due to some unseen geometric distortion. I'd be willing to wager a large sum of money that if you distorted the distances in the "hemiplanes" to account for the speed of the Sun/length of the day, the resulting geometry sans imaginary distortion would fit very nicely on an oblate spheroid. In fact, it would literally pull itself into a spherical shape.

Yes, of course it would!

The biggest and over-arching problem of every aspect of FET is that it has all of these strange and quite arbitrary laws of physics - all of the way that the mysterious etheric currents are supposed to work - the peculiar pseudo-gravity of sun and moon, the 'flashlight beam' shape of the sun and the "shadow object"...ALL of that weird shit is carefully tuned by the laws of Flat-Earth physics to beautifully mimic what the universe would be like if the Earth was spherical.

Why would the laws of physics do that?   It's entirely illogical.

Occam's razor alone says that the Earth is round.

For FET to be true, it has to predict effects that we see in the real world that are INCONSISTENT with the Round Earth.   It has to say:  "If you did this, this and this - then the results of that experiment would NOT be consistent with a Round Earth" - and the only experiment which is EVER claimed to do that is "vision over water" - and the results of that are far, far from conclusive because of the illusive nature of refraction close to water surfaces.

Instead FE theorists have to continually come up with new (and very complex) systems to explain every single thing that we see in reality that naturally comes about from the simple, elegant, RE laws of physics.   The contortions they have to go through to explain simple stuff like the seasons, the length of the day and night...it's crazy!


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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 02:35:47 AM »
But the sunrise and sunset times across the world are a perfect match for what RET predicts.

Source?

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 03:06:58 AM »
But the sunrise and sunset times across the world are a perfect match for what RET predicts.

Source?

The MILLIONS (possibly BILLIONS) of people who look out of the window each day and see that their clocks agree with sunrise and sunset predictions...which have evidently been made using RET assumptions.

If sunrise and sunset calculators such as TimeAndDate.com were wrong - if my nightly TV weather forecaster - if my phone - produced sunrise and sunset times that DIDN'T agree with the actual times that the sun rises and sets...don't you think there would be MANY questions being asked?

How come not one scientist - not one curious person EVER came forward to say "Hey!  The sun rose 2 hours later than it should today?!?".

If you doubt that the sun rises and sets on time - you've gone *WELL* beyond the bounds of reasonable doubt.


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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 04:24:57 AM »
But the sunrise and sunset times across the world are a perfect match for what RET predicts.

Source?

The MILLIONS (possibly BILLIONS) of people who look out of the window each day and see that their clocks agree with sunrise and sunset predictions...which have evidently been made using RET assumptions.

If sunrise and sunset calculators such as TimeAndDate.com were wrong - if my nightly TV weather forecaster - if my phone - produced sunrise and sunset times that DIDN'T agree with the actual times that the sun rises and sets...don't you think there would be MANY questions being asked?

How come not one scientist - not one curious person EVER came forward to say "Hey!  The sun rose 2 hours later than it should today?!?".

If you doubt that the sun rises and sets on time - you've gone *WELL* beyond the bounds of reasonable doubt.

Can you show that timeanddate.com is based on a Round Earth model rather than any sort of pattern-based equation?

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 05:14:40 AM »
Can you show that it's not?

Or better yet, can you show us, using any flat earth model you choose, what movement of the sun could produce a day at Stanley, Falkland Islands that has over 16 1/2 hours of daylight and zero hours of true darkness, the balance being made up of deepening twilight that never fades to true darkness? 




Can you then show how the same movement of the sun can produce, simultaneously, a day with only 8 1/4 hours of daylight and over 12 hours of darkness 7,000 miles directly north of there in Deer Lake, Newfoundland? 


These figures make perfect sense to people who understand the globe and the tilt of its axis.  I have never yet seen a flat earth explanation for these figures.  And for those who doubt the hours of sunlight at Stanley, there is a set of webcams one may consult.
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Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 12:03:42 PM »
But the sunrise and sunset times across the world are a perfect match for what RET predicts.

Source?

How about you tackle the main points raised? The sun would have to move at different speeds in order for the day to be 24 hours long everywhere and the southern hemiplane would have to be much cooler than the northern due to the fact that the area it has to heat is much larger. (see simple area of a circle equations)
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 01:05:17 PM »
Can you show that it's not?

Positive claims require positive evidence. "Prove me wrong" is a crap debating style. Timeanddate.com has zero resources or information for how that data is created. If you are claiming anything about it being based on the model of your choosing then it is YOUR responsibility to show how it is made.

Quote
Or better yet, can you show us, using any flat earth model you choose, what movement of the sun could produce a day at Stanley, Falkland Islands that has over 16 1/2 hours of daylight and zero hours of true darkness, the balance being made up of deepening twilight that never fades to true darkness?

The Monopole map and model is used for visualization purposes only.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 01:10:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 01:10:14 PM »
Can you show that timeanddate.com is based on a Round Earth model rather than any sort of pattern-based equation?

Yes!  Very easily!

There is a lot of explanation on their page: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html

On this page: https://www.timeanddate.com/services/api/astronomy-api.html you'll note that they offer software for professionals who need this kind of data.

Because I am one such person (I write flight simulator software for airlines and various military groups for a living) - I actually looked into using their software rather than writing my own.  (We need to simulate sunrises and sunsets for our simulators - and to get things like the changes in these times due to your altitude to behave as they do in the real world).

When I looked into this, it seems that TimeAndDate.com use a software package called "SOFA" ("Standards of Fundamental Astronomy") that is provided by the International Astronomical Union (IAU).  It's free to download and use, so lots of places that need sunrise/sunset (or Mars-rise/Mars-set or whatever) times often use it rather than writing their own programs.

So there was never a need for me to pay money for TimeAndDate.com when I could do what they do for almost no work.

Here is the documentation for SOFA:

    http://www.iausofa.org/
    http://www.iausofa.org/sofa_ast_c.pdf

You will see that this is a VERY serious piece of software - it takes into account a TON of complicated stuff like the effects of relativity and refraction of the air...it's exceedingly comprehensive.

If anyone here is a programmer - they can download SOFA for free from GIThub here:

   https://github.com/abrudana/wwa/tree/master/WorldWideAstronomy/SOFA

If you're VERY smart - you could doubtless dig in and see the actual equations they use...but it's kinda daunting!

SOFA *clearly* uses RET equations (and the Heliocentric model)  for the motion of all of the solar system bodies - from which they go on to derive things like sunrise and sunset times.

You can be 100% certain that they are using RET.

SOFA *works* - most astronomers use it for things like making sure that when they tell their telescope to take a 2 hour exposure photograph of some star or planet - that it'll move to the correct location in the sky and track that location in the sky to perfection.

If SOFA somehow didn't produce PRECISE positions for all of the objects in the sky - the world of international astronomy would be up in arms about it.  Instead - there is a long list of presentations from the SOFA board and independent astronomers about how wonderful it is.

This cannot be wrong...it'll tell you when the center of the sun crosses the idealized horizon to within microseconds of precision...and if it was wrong to the slightest degree, we'd know about it.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 01:23:17 PM by 3DGeek »

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 01:11:40 PM »
Can you show that timeanddate.com is based on a Round Earth model rather than any sort of pattern-based equation?

Yes!  Very easily!

There is a lot of explanation on their page: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html

Where does it say anything about the Round Earth model on that page?

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 02:00:00 PM »
Can you show that timeanddate.com is based on a Round Earth model rather than any sort of pattern-based equation?

Yes!  Very easily!

There is a lot of explanation on their page: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html

Where does it say anything about the Round Earth model on that page?

That's just an introduction...the software documentation for SOFA is where that stuff happens.

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 02:41:23 PM »
Quote
Or better yet, can you show us, using any flat earth model you choose, what movement of the sun could produce a day at Stanley, Falkland Islands that has over 16 1/2 hours of daylight and zero hours of true darkness, the balance being made up of deepening twilight that never fades to true darkness?

The Monopole map and model is used for visualization purposes only.

I know you don't like the monopole model.  That's why I included the words highlighted above. 

The bottom line is I don't care which model you use because I find them all unconvincing.  You DO find one convincing?  Fine, then use it to "visualize" for us how the sun can move above it and produce the daylight patterns that we observe.
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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 03:22:01 PM »
Can you show that timeanddate.com is based on a Round Earth model rather than any sort of pattern-based equation?

Yes!  Very easily!

There is a lot of explanation on their page: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html

Where does it say anything about the Round Earth model on that page?

That's just an introduction...the software documentation for SOFA is where that stuff happens.

I don't see the "SOFA" anywhere on that page. Why isn't it listed on the about page if you think that this is what it is based on (not to say that SOFA is based on a Round Earth model, either)?

Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2017, 03:26:17 PM »
Can you show that timeanddate.com is based on a Round Earth model rather than any sort of pattern-based equation?

Yes!  Very easily!

There is a lot of explanation on their page: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html

Where does it say anything about the Round Earth model on that page?

That's just an introduction...the software documentation for SOFA is where that stuff happens.

I don't see the "SOFA" anywhere on that page. Why isn't it listed on the about page if you think that this is what it is based on (not to say that SOFA is based on a Round Earth model, either)?

I feel like I link this to you every time, without any actual success in you doing anything with it. Here are the equations for figuring out sunrise/set times based on a round Earth. Show us timeanddate.com no longer agrees with these calculations, and you might have an actual case against it based on more than 'nuh uh'. I would love to show you they work, but the math is a touch over what I'm comfortable with, and I don't really feel like figuring it out. But surely you must be able to. How else would you know with such surety that the round Earth math constructs don't work?
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2017, 06:45:30 PM »
Can you show that timeanddate.com is based on a Round Earth model rather than any sort of pattern-based equation?

Yes!  Very easily!

There is a lot of explanation on their page: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html

Where does it say anything about the Round Earth model on that page?

That's just an introduction...the software documentation for SOFA is where that stuff happens.

I don't see the "SOFA" anywhere on that page. Why isn't it listed on the about page if you think that this is what it is based on (not to say that SOFA is based on a Round Earth model, either)?

I feel like I link this to you every time, without any actual success in you doing anything with it. Here are the equations for figuring out sunrise/set times based on a round Earth. Show us timeanddate.com no longer agrees with these calculations, and you might have an actual case against it based on more than 'nuh uh'. I would love to show you they work, but the math is a touch over what I'm comfortable with, and I don't really feel like figuring it out. But surely you must be able to. How else would you know with such surety that the round Earth math constructs don't work?

Read through your link in its entirety, it says clearly that the general equation does not work unless 10 other equations are considered. No final solution is presented. We are left to assume that everything works out in the end.

Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2017, 06:55:59 PM »
Can you show that timeanddate.com is based on a Round Earth model rather than any sort of pattern-based equation?

Yes!  Very easily!

There is a lot of explanation on their page: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html

Where does it say anything about the Round Earth model on that page?

That's just an introduction...the software documentation for SOFA is where that stuff happens.

I don't see the "SOFA" anywhere on that page. Why isn't it listed on the about page if you think that this is what it is based on (not to say that SOFA is based on a Round Earth model, either)?

I feel like I link this to you every time, without any actual success in you doing anything with it. Here are the equations for figuring out sunrise/set times based on a round Earth. Show us timeanddate.com no longer agrees with these calculations, and you might have an actual case against it based on more than 'nuh uh'. I would love to show you they work, but the math is a touch over what I'm comfortable with, and I don't really feel like figuring it out. But surely you must be able to. How else would you know with such surety that the round Earth math constructs don't work?

Read through your link in its entirety, it says clearly that the general equation does not work unless 10 other equations are considered. No final solution is presented. We are left to assume that everything works out in the end.
I have. Why do you think I feel the math is beyond me? But that is exactly what is claimed to be in use by these sites. If you wish to prove them wrong, there you go. I don't understand 'no final solution is presented' as it's right there, plain as day. Find the numbers through those equations, and that gives you what you are looking for. I don't know how you can honestly say "This doesn't give me an equation for sunrise/set times" when it quite clearly does. It requires more than just a single equation, but that doesn't make it any less of an equation to find sunrise/set times. Everything is there to see what your times are supposed to be and compare them with timeanddate.com to see if it's been 'adjusted based on observations' you'll just have to do a little work. As I said, I would love to, but I can't make a good heads or tails of it overall. Maybe 3DGeek could crunch some numbers there for us if you can't or won't.
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Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2017, 06:58:17 PM »
Can you show that timeanddate.com is based on a Round Earth model rather than any sort of pattern-based equation?

Yes!  Very easily!

There is a lot of explanation on their page: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/about-sun-calculator.html

Where does it say anything about the Round Earth model on that page?

That's just an introduction...the software documentation for SOFA is where that stuff happens.

I don't see the "SOFA" anywhere on that page. Why isn't it listed on the about page if you think that this is what it is based on (not to say that SOFA is based on a Round Earth model, either)?

I feel like I link this to you every time, without any actual success in you doing anything with it. Here are the equations for figuring out sunrise/set times based on a round Earth. Show us timeanddate.com no longer agrees with these calculations, and you might have an actual case against it based on more than 'nuh uh'. I would love to show you they work, but the math is a touch over what I'm comfortable with, and I don't really feel like figuring it out. But surely you must be able to. How else would you know with such surety that the round Earth math constructs don't work?

Read through your link in its entirety, it says clearly that the general equation does not work unless 10 other equations are considered. No final solution is presented. We are left to assume that everything works out in the end.

Well, you can go and download the SOFA software - it's right there.   The code contains all of the equations they use.   I'm kinda sceptical that you'd be able to work through them all in detail - but there is nothing being hidden away or covered up anyplace.   I've used SOFA in some flight simulation products - and it does reproduce realistic sunrise/sunset times, moon positions and phases...everything you see out there in the real world.

The IAU would not get away with publishing stuff that doesn't work - and there are a ton of astronomical papers that cite their work.

So I guess you either have to take someone's word for it - or start diving into the software.

But what SOFA does isn't something as simple as plugging the time of day and your latitude/longitude into a few lines of math to get the sunrise time.   It computes the orbits of all of the planets, moons, etc - it even 'fixes' the errors made by Isaac Newton in the orbit of Mercury.   When it calculates sunrises and sunsets - it's even making the teeny-tiny adjustments for refraction.

It's an extremely comprehensive piece of software...but it's not simple!

Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2017, 07:06:06 PM »
Well, you can go and download the SOFA software - it's right there.   The code contains all of the equations they use.   I'm kinda sceptical that you'd be able to work through them all in detail - but there is nothing being hidden away or covered up anyplace.   I've used SOFA in some flight simulation products - and it does reproduce realistic sunrise/sunset times, moon positions and phases...everything you see out there in the real world.

The IAU would not get away with publishing stuff that doesn't work - and there are a ton of astronomical papers that cite their work.

So I guess you either have to take someone's word for it - or start diving into the software.

But what SOFA does isn't something as simple as plugging the time of day and your latitude/longitude into a few lines of math to get the sunrise time.   It computes the orbits of all of the planets, moons, etc - it even 'fixes' the errors made by Isaac Newton in the orbit of Mercury.   When it calculates sunrises and sunsets - it's even making the teeny-tiny adjustments for refraction.

It's an extremely comprehensive piece of software...but it's not simple!
This is honestly the root of the problem we appear to be having. Tom seems to be thinking there should be this nice, simple little string behind these calculators since it's so easy to use from an end user standpoint. When in reality that's just good programming at work, and everything going on 'behind the scenes' is far more complicated because it's not representing a simple system.

Tom, these equations are all being done rapidly by these calculators and simulators when you enter in your location and the date. This is the process the computer goes through. This is part of why I at least find it amusing when you claim things like "It's been adjusted to match observations" since you don't seem to understand the full extent of what is actually going on behind the scenes. It's not as simple as changing a number here or there, these programs have an incredible amount of interwoven data.
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Why doesn't the southern hemiplane freeze?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2017, 07:15:32 PM »
Before you bait me into discussing SOFA, which may be off topic to the method used for timeanddate.com, please show where on the timeanddate.com website it is stated that they are using SOFA.