Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #300 on: September 01, 2017, 08:08:32 AM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?
I have yet to see you make a positive contribution to any discussion here.  You refuse to explain how you would map the earth and now tell us there is no need.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #301 on: September 01, 2017, 11:15:49 AM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?
Because you have yet to provide any evidence supporting the idea that the RE distances are inaccurate. You simply shoot them down for a reason that isn't even an actual factor. Once again Tom, the difference between a mile on FE, and a mile on the RE Lat/Long coordinates. What is it?

A mile is 5280 feet on a Flat Earth. I don't know what it is on a Round Earth since Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system devices appear to be inaccurate.

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What is a way you approve of finding distances?

As mentioned several times, any method not using a Round Earth lat/lon system is fine. If you expect us to accept the Round Earth lat/lon system as being accurate without question then you might as well expect us to accept the earth is round.

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On that second note though, do you not know the distances of ANYWHERE you've traveled then? I mean, everything is based on RE Lat/Long apparently. So how can you possibly know the distances used in your experiment?

The experiment is built against the Round Earth theory. Why can't I use your distances to show that the curvature is wrong?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 01:02:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #302 on: September 01, 2017, 11:21:20 AM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?

Navigation, governance and commerce all break down if we don't actually know how far things are from each other.  It may seem trivial until you realize that international commerce relies on knowing exactly how far raw materials and finished goods have to travel before you purchase them on Amazon or at Walmart or whatever other physical/online store you use.  Your basic internet access only works because some poor schmuck dragged a specific length of fiber optic cable across the ocean to connect the land masses.  How else did you think that you could mildly irritate people in every time zone simultaneously?

In a modern world ruled by profit margin, knowing exact costs is king.

Thank you,

CriticalThinker

All that is known is how long the transportation takes. In Round Earth coordinate devices the distance is computed based on Round Earth coordinate geometry.

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #303 on: September 01, 2017, 12:24:31 PM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?

Navigation, governance and commerce all break down if we don't actually know how far things are from each other.  It may seem trivial until you realize that international commerce relies on knowing exactly how far raw materials and finished goods have to travel before you purchase them on Amazon or at Walmart or whatever other physical/online store you use.  Your basic internet access only works because some poor schmuck dragged a specific length of fiber optic cable across the ocean to connect the land masses.  How else did you think that you could mildly irritate people in every time zone simultaneously?

In a modern world ruled by profit margin, knowing exact costs is king.

Thank you,

CriticalThinker

All that is known is how long the transportation takes. In Round Earth coordinate devices the distance is computed based on Round Earth coordinate geometry.

No Tom,

In transportation distance matters as well.  Mileage is needed to ensure you don't run out of fuel and die.  Using the round earth coordinates to traverse both halves of the world or in your model both hemiplanes has yet to cause a large number of flights or ships to suddenly run out of fuel mid trip.

The miles of cabling that run under the ocean to connect the continents and create "the internet" had to be physically made and laid.  As did all of the continental cabling that connects California to New York, Paris to Krakow etc.  These are physical lengths of cabling that had to be manufactured and placed along carefully measured routes that just so happen, in your opinion, to match up perfectly with the Lat/long coordinates.

Tom, despite you best efforts to claim otherwise length (distance) really does matter to all industries and empires.

Thank you,

CriticalThinker
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #304 on: September 01, 2017, 12:27:44 PM »
No Tom,

In transportation distance matters as well.  Mileage is needed to ensure you don't run out of fuel and die.  Using the round earth coordinates to traverse both halves of the world or in your model both hemiplanes has yet to cause a large number of flights or ships to suddenly run out of fuel mid trip.

The miles of cabling that run under the ocean to connect the continents and create "the internet" had to be physically made and laid.  As did all of the continental cabling that connects California to New York, Paris to Krakow etc.  These are physical lengths of cabling that had to be manufactured and placed along carefully measured routes that just so happen, in your opinion, to match up perfectly with the Lat/long coordinates.

Tom, despite you best efforts to claim otherwise length (distance) really does matter to all industries and empires.

Thank you,

CriticalThinker

Where is the evidence that the cables were carefully measured and they did not simply bring along massive spools?

Why are you assuming that the distance needs to be enormous? Are you assuming the monopole map and model?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #305 on: September 01, 2017, 12:35:05 PM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?

Navigation, governance and commerce all break down if we don't actually know how far things are from each other.  It may seem trivial until you realize that international commerce relies on knowing exactly how far raw materials and finished goods have to travel before you purchase them on Amazon or at Walmart or whatever other physical/online store you use.  Your basic internet access only works because some poor schmuck dragged a specific length of fiber optic cable across the ocean to connect the land masses.  How else did you think that you could mildly irritate people in every time zone simultaneously?

In a modern world ruled by profit margin, knowing exact costs is king.

Thank you,

CriticalThinker

All that is known is how long the transportation takes. In Round Earth coordinate devices the distance is computed based on Round Earth coordinate geometry.

That is exactly the opposite of what happens... I'm not sure whether you are extremely naive or disingenuos. Have you ever travelled beyond your backyard?

How do you think that industrial haulers like me, or shipping agents, calculate their rates? Do you think we have timetables for all the planet like we were city transit companies?

I almost never get the same inquiry on the same route, I'll break it down as easily as reasonable for you:
- Client wants to take the piece from A to B
- I plot a route on a round earth. I get the distance with RE assumptions.
- With that information, I know almost exactly (barring accidents on the road / sea) how much time the truck / ship is going to need to go from point A to point B. On the basis of a RE, I calculate the rate.

If the RE distances didn't jive with reality, I would be broke. We would have means of transportation arriving at destination when the heck they want, and our telephone lines would be melting with complaints. Do you know how much a ship costs, per day? What happens if you miscalculate a distance based rate by two weeks?

Both of your "maps" would cause huge problems.
The unipolar map for everything from the equator down, and the bipolar map is even worse, for the skewed routes you need to take to avoind falling of the edge... try sailing from japan to the states.

good grief.


Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #306 on: September 01, 2017, 12:45:49 PM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?
Because you have yet to provide any evidence supporting the idea that the RE distances are inaccurate. You simply shoot them down for a reason that isn't even an actual factor. Once again Tom, the difference between a mile on FE, and a mile on the RE Lat/Long coordinates. What is it?

A mile is 5280 feet on a Flat Earth. I don't know what it is on a Round Earth since Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system is inaccurate.
Oh how handy, that's how many feet are in a mile for a RE too! Case closed guys, 1 FE mile is equal to 1 RE mile. Therefore all of our numbers for the quadrilateral above are correct, and a flat Earth is indeed impossible. Good job guys.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #307 on: September 01, 2017, 12:53:57 PM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?
Because you have yet to provide any evidence supporting the idea that the RE distances are inaccurate. You simply shoot them down for a reason that isn't even an actual factor. Once again Tom, the difference between a mile on FE, and a mile on the RE Lat/Long coordinates. What is it?

A mile is 5280 feet on a Flat Earth. I don't know what it is on a Round Earth since Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system is inaccurate.
Oh how handy, that's how many feet are in a mile for a RE too! Case closed guys, 1 FE mile is equal to 1 RE mile. Therefore all of our numbers for the quadrilateral above are correct, and a flat Earth is indeed impossible. Good job guys.

You have not shown that the Round Earth coordinate devices compute a mile to be exactly 5280 feet. We keep on looking at articles discussing how inaccurate GPS seems to be.

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #308 on: September 01, 2017, 12:58:01 PM »
The miles of cabling that run under the ocean to connect the continents and create "the internet" had to be physically made and laid.  As did all of the continental cabling that connects California to New York, Paris to Krakow etc.  These are physical lengths of cabling that had to be manufactured and placed along carefully measured routes...

Where is the evidence that the cables were carefully measured and they did not simply bring along massive spools?

This isn't like wiring a house, Tom.  You don't just bring a whole bunch of it and stop spooling it out when you make landfall, because undersea cable is very expensive.  And even if you did, undersea cables have repeaters emedded in them every so many miles to boost the signal.  The owners know how many repeaters are in the cable, which means they know how long the cable is.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #309 on: September 01, 2017, 01:00:19 PM »
This isn't like wiring a house, Tom.  You don't just bring a whole bunch of it and stop spooling it out when you make landfall, because undersea cable is very expensive.  And even if you did, undersea cables have repeaters emedded in them every so many miles to boost the signal.  The owners know how many repeaters are in the cable, which means they know how long the cable is.

Are you an owner? Do you have access to their records for us?

Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #310 on: September 01, 2017, 01:03:17 PM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?
Because you have yet to provide any evidence supporting the idea that the RE distances are inaccurate. You simply shoot them down for a reason that isn't even an actual factor. Once again Tom, the difference between a mile on FE, and a mile on the RE Lat/Long coordinates. What is it?

A mile is 5280 feet on a Flat Earth. I don't know what it is on a Round Earth since Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system is inaccurate.
Oh how handy, that's how many feet are in a mile for a RE too! Case closed guys, 1 FE mile is equal to 1 RE mile. Therefore all of our numbers for the quadrilateral above are correct, and a flat Earth is indeed impossible. Good job guys.

You have not shown that the Round Earth coordinate devices compute a mile to be exactly 5280 feet. We keep on looking at articles discussing how inaccurate GPS seems to be.
I'm not talking about the coordinate devices one bit. I'm talking about surveyor distances, that thing all maps are based on. 1 mile = 5280 feet. This is true for every surveying method, even triangulation. The adjustment for the Earth's curve will not change the distance of a mile by an appreciable amount (talking fractions of an inch here). The coordinate system simply supplies the ability to tell locations apart, but maps are made with methods that do not use or rely on it in any way.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #311 on: September 01, 2017, 01:04:58 PM »
I'm not talking about the coordinate devices one bit. I'm talking about surveyor distances, that thing all maps are based on. 1 mile = 5280 feet. This is true for every surveying method, even triangulation.

You will need to show that the lat/lon system matches up to 1 mile = 5280 feet in the real world, not just insist that it does.

Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #312 on: September 01, 2017, 01:52:54 PM »
I'm not talking about the coordinate devices one bit. I'm talking about surveyor distances, that thing all maps are based on. 1 mile = 5280 feet. This is true for every surveying method, even triangulation.

You will need to show that the lat/lon system matches up to 1 mile = 5280 feet in the real world, not just insist that it does.
By definition:

1 mile = 5280 feet  3 feet = 1 yard.

The developed world now uses metres and kilometers etc.  See the definition of a meter.

Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #313 on: September 01, 2017, 01:55:15 PM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?
Because you have yet to provide any evidence supporting the idea that the RE distances are inaccurate. You simply shoot them down for a reason that isn't even an actual factor. Once again Tom, the difference between a mile on FE, and a mile on the RE Lat/Long coordinates. What is it?

A mile is 5280 feet on a Flat Earth. I don't know what it is on a Round Earth since Round Earth lat/lon coordinate system is inaccurate.
Oh how handy, that's how many feet are in a mile for a RE too! Case closed guys, 1 FE mile is equal to 1 RE mile. Therefore all of our numbers for the quadrilateral above are correct, and a flat Earth is indeed impossible. Good job guys.

You have not shown that the Round Earth coordinate devices compute a mile to be exactly 5280 feet. We keep on looking at articles discussing how inaccurate GPS seems to be.
Where?  We know the issue with speed over short distances.  The accuracy of GPS is fully known.  A few meters.

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #314 on: September 01, 2017, 02:04:57 PM »
Tom, given there are many industries that require accurate knowledge of distances to turn a profit, how do you justify arguing that we don't know distances? What is your proof? (I'm not looking for theories or guesses) And please don't answer this question with a question. I am looking for a statement of fact.
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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #315 on: September 01, 2017, 02:05:52 PM »
No Tom,

In transportation distance matters as well.  Mileage is needed to ensure you don't run out of fuel and die.  Using the round earth coordinates to traverse both halves of the world or in your model both hemiplanes has yet to cause a large number of flights or ships to suddenly run out of fuel mid trip.

The miles of cabling that run under the ocean to connect the continents and create "the internet" had to be physically made and laid.  As did all of the continental cabling that connects California to New York, Paris to Krakow etc.  These are physical lengths of cabling that had to be manufactured and placed along carefully measured routes that just so happen, in your opinion, to match up perfectly with the Lat/long coordinates.

Tom, despite you best efforts to claim otherwise length (distance) really does matter to all industries and empires.

Thank you,

CriticalThinker

Where is the evidence that the cables were carefully measured and they did not simply bring along massive spools?

Why are you assuming that the distance needs to be enormous? Are you assuming the monopole map and model?

Because of the market forces subjected to manufacturing/transportation/telecommunication.  Raw materials must be procured from one party, shipped by another, manufactured by another, shipped again and installed/sold by yet another.  Every step in the supply chain has to know costs in order to generate revenue and turn a profit.  Both the unipolar and bipolar map models have wild distortions when compared to the RE model and so far those discrepancies do not show up in the supply chain.

Thank you,

CriticalThinker
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #316 on: September 01, 2017, 02:31:24 PM »
This isn't like wiring a house, Tom.  You don't just bring a whole bunch of it and stop spooling it out when you make landfall, because undersea cable is very expensive.  And even if you did, undersea cables have repeaters emedded in them every so many miles to boost the signal.  The owners know how many repeaters are in the cable, which means they know how long the cable is.

Are you an owner? Do you have access to their records for us?

I suspect I'm on your ignore list, but I'll try anyway...
This isn't a matter of having access to confidential data... it's common sense.
I don't know what is or was your job, but you seem not to have a clue about how things work in the real world (assuming you are not pulling our collective leg).

Just from a cursory reading in the internet, it's clear that laying underwater cables is not an easy process. It's complicated and it's extremely expensive. It requires surveys and an accurate planning of the route of the cable, to avoid underwater obstacles and compensate for the irregularities of the ocean floor. You can't have it suspended over a chasm, for instance.
Do you really think this is conducted by two guys on a fishing boat with a huge spool?

Even assuming the cable costs a dollar per meter, do you think industries would throw away 3 million dollars and produce two times the cable needed, just in case? It's not like you can sell the leftovers on a market stand...

Or do you think it's produced on demand, and when the spool is over in the middle of the ocean they just send the errand boy to fetch another one at radio shack?

These are private enterprises, they live by doing exactly what needed. They literally can't afford to eyeball it.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #317 on: September 01, 2017, 02:45:14 PM »
Why do I need to show you a map of the earth? What is wrong with the exact continental dimensions and distances being unknown?

Simple answer.  Anyone with any curiosity would want to map his world.  Only a very dull mind would sit back and think the world is flat but I don't care what it looks like.  Since it's possible to make a rough draft map that proves or disproves FE with an acceptable degree of accuracy people should be jumping on the idea.  Since all you do is make silly arguments it shows your real problem and that's fear.  Why are you so afraid to have a conversation about distance?  If mankind had thought like you do we would all be sitting in caves.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #318 on: September 01, 2017, 07:04:28 PM »
You have not shown that the Round Earth coordinate devices compute a mile to be exactly 5280 feet. We keep on looking at articles discussing how inaccurate GPS seems to be.

Oh wow!  This has to be the "Tom Bishop dumb quote of the decade"!   A mile is 5280 feet by definition...that's the actual formal definition of a mile.  Nobody "computes" it - and no sane person disputes it.

You *MIGHT* be thinking of a "Nautical Mile" which was once defined as "One sixtieth of a degree of latitude"...however, with the realization that the world is not in fact a perfect sphere - that definition was dropped and the modern definition is 1,852 meters (6,076.1 ft).

If someone here were talking about nautical miles - or speeds in knots (nautical miles per hour) then maybe what you said made some kind of twisted, anachronistic sense - but since we weren't and because we're in the 21st century now - what you said is UTTERLY meaningless.




Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline CriticalThinker

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #319 on: September 01, 2017, 07:35:50 PM »
I'm not talking about the coordinate devices one bit. I'm talking about surveyor distances, that thing all maps are based on. 1 mile = 5280 feet. This is true for every surveying method, even triangulation.

You will need to show that the lat/lon system matches up to 1 mile = 5280 feet in the real world, not just insist that it does.

Tom,

You don't seem to be following the history of map making very well so let me explain.  No there is too much, let me sum up.  At one point it was commonly believed that the earth was flat.  Then we started measuring things with other things like feet, inches, meters.  Then we argued about which method of measurement was superior.  Then we finally agreed to standardize measurements in general so that we all knew that we were measuring the same things the same way.  By this time, we had measured all of the measurable things on land and tried to make them fit on a flat piece of paper, sailed around the world a few times without falling off the edge or stubbing our toes on a gigantic ice wall and figured that all of the problems we were having drawing our maps on a flat piece of paper might just go away if we drew them on a round thingy instead.  At that point, measurements around the round thingy matched all those things we measured with other things earlier and we all lived happily ever after yelling at Garmin for telling us 10 times that we needed top turn eventually only to recalculate because we went under some heavy branches overhead on a cloudy day and hadn't bothered to actually look for the turn in the road we knew about 10 minutes earlier.

Does that make more sense Tom?

Thank you,

CriticalThinker
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