Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #320 on: September 01, 2017, 07:48:02 PM »
I think it's worth noting it's mathematically proven it's impossible for a sphere to be represented in a flat surface without any kind of distortion.

That's the reason why some projections of the real world (the quasi-spherical one obviously), such as the widely used Mercator projection, show some discrepancies to the size of landmasses located near the poles. With that said, if you only use a spherical map of the Earth to base all of your trips across the planet, you will achieve rather astonishing precision. Sorry to inform you FEers, I have already done this and asserted it myself.

The problem is, if we really live in a flat surface, this globe representation of the Earth must be distorted somehow (in shape or area) somewhere. And we were not able to find such distortion neither by sea nor air.

What's the reason we cannot verify it then? And why does my GPS apparatus work so well, even when I'm in the middle of the Pacific Ocean?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #321 on: September 02, 2017, 04:05:45 PM »
The interesting thing about the FE'er's assertions that GPS is broken is that it was developed by the US military - primarily to allow cruise missiles and other long range/high-precision weapons to achieve ~2 foot precision on targets anywhere in the world.

The developers of the system initially encrypted the signal to prevent civilian (and enemy) use - then later changed the system to only encrypt the last few binary digits of the signal in order to allow civilian use - and have since removed even that level of encryption as other systems have come along with similar capabilities and the benefits of preventing unauthorized use has vanished.

But the point is that the US military would have been very well aware if the Earth was flat - and designed the system to work accurately within that premise.

So if there were discrepancies - they would result in the earth seeming to be flat in GPS coordinates and distance - not to make it look round as it appears to do.

History doesn't support both the idea that GPS is 'rigged' and that the US Military knows that the Earth is flat.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #322 on: September 02, 2017, 04:12:50 PM »
This isn't like wiring a house, Tom.  You don't just bring a whole bunch of it and stop spooling it out when you make landfall, because undersea cable is very expensive.  And even if you did, undersea cables have repeaters emedded in them every so many miles to boost the signal.  The owners know how many repeaters are in the cable, which means they know how long the cable is.

Are you an owner? Do you have access to their records for us?

As usual, we have the passive-aggressive effort to sow confusion and doubt rather than draw back the curtains and open the window to allow enlightenment and debate.

The point here is that the people who lay undersea cables - and the people who pay for them to be laid - and the people who run the system by remotely querying those regularly space repeaters would all have to be bundled up into your increasing spiral of conspiracy.

So now, the big undersea cable companies are a part of the same conspiracy as NASA, SpaceX, GPS and cellphone providers, the Russian, Chinese, Indian, French, South African and (now) North Korean governments?

Is there anyone besides Tom Bishop who is NOT a part of this coverup?

Isn't this just the teensiest bit paranoid?
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #323 on: September 02, 2017, 04:48:24 PM »
No Tom,

In transportation distance matters as well.  Mileage is needed to ensure you don't run out of fuel and die.  Using the round earth coordinates to traverse both halves of the world or in your model both hemiplanes has yet to cause a large number of flights or ships to suddenly run out of fuel mid trip.

They would have known from previous trips and assessments of the Round Earth lat/lon readings how much fuel they would need to bring for xxx Round Earth miles.

If you travel 300 miles on a road trip, according to your GPS, and your tank is half empty you have an idea on how much fuel you need.

Quote
The miles of cabling that run under the ocean to connect the continents and create "the internet" had to be physically made and laid.  As did all of the continental cabling that connects California to New York, Paris to Krakow etc.  These are physical lengths of cabling that had to be manufactured and placed along carefully measured routes that just so happen, in your opinion, to match up perfectly with the Lat/long coordinates.

How do you know their methodology?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #324 on: September 02, 2017, 04:52:12 PM »
The interesting thing about the FE'er's assertions that GPS is broken is that it was developed by the US military - primarily to allow cruise missiles and other long range/high-precision weapons to achieve ~2 foot precision on targets anywhere in the world.

The coordinates take you to real places if you attempt to follow them. The distance between the coordinates are based on a globe.

This isn't like wiring a house, Tom.  You don't just bring a whole bunch of it and stop spooling it out when you make landfall, because undersea cable is very expensive.  And even if you did, undersea cables have repeaters emedded in them every so many miles to boost the signal.  The owners know how many repeaters are in the cable, which means they know how long the cable is.

Are you an owner? Do you have access to their records for us?

As usual, we have the passive-aggressive effort to sow confusion and doubt rather than draw back the curtains and open the window to allow enlightenment and debate.

The point here is that the people who lay undersea cables - and the people who pay for them to be laid - and the people who run the system by remotely querying those regularly space repeaters would all have to be bundled up into your increasing spiral of conspiracy.

So now, the big undersea cable companies are a part of the same conspiracy as NASA, SpaceX, GPS and cellphone providers, the Russian, Chinese, Indian, French, South African and (now) North Korean governments?

Is there anyone besides Tom Bishop who is NOT a part of this coverup?

Isn't this just the teensiest bit paranoid?


Where did I say anything about a conspiracy? You are making a lot of assumptions on how submarine cable layers operate and I am asking for further information to demonstrate what was claimed is true. How do we know that they didn't run out of cable at one point and learned that they needed to bring more cable for these things?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #325 on: September 02, 2017, 05:12:02 PM »

They would have known from previous trips and assessments of the Round Earth lat/lon readings how much fuel they would need to bring for xxx Round Earth miles.

If you travel 300 miles on a road trip, according to your GPS, and your tank is half empty you have an idea on how much fuel you need.
That's not how it works. I explained you already, but feel free to ignore it. As you always do with everything that you can't answer...

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #326 on: September 02, 2017, 05:17:30 PM »
The interesting thing about the FE'er's assertions that GPS is broken is that it was developed by the US military - primarily to allow cruise missiles and other long range/high-precision weapons to achieve ~2 foot precision on targets anywhere in the world.

The coordinates take you to real places if you attempt to follow them. The distance between the coordinates are based on a globe.

This isn't like wiring a house, Tom.  You don't just bring a whole bunch of it and stop spooling it out when you make landfall, because undersea cable is very expensive.  And even if you did, undersea cables have repeaters emedded in them every so many miles to boost the signal.  The owners know how many repeaters are in the cable, which means they know how long the cable is.

Are you an owner? Do you have access to their records for us?

As usual, we have the passive-aggressive effort to sow confusion and doubt rather than draw back the curtains and open the window to allow enlightenment and debate.

The point here is that the people who lay undersea cables - and the people who pay for them to be laid - and the people who run the system by remotely querying those regularly space repeaters would all have to be bundled up into your increasing spiral of conspiracy.

So now, the big undersea cable companies are a part of the same conspiracy as NASA, SpaceX, GPS and cellphone providers, the Russian, Chinese, Indian, French, South African and (now) North Korean governments?

Is there anyone besides Tom Bishop who is NOT a part of this coverup?

Isn't this just the teensiest bit paranoid?


Where did I say anything about a conspiracy? You are making a lot of assumptions on how submarine cable layers operate and I am asking for further information to demonstrate what was claimed is true. How do we know that they didn't run out of cable at one point and learned that they needed to bring more cable for these things?

So you're saying (with a straight face) that when they lay a cable and it takes THREE TIMES as much as they thought it would - they just order more cable?

These guys would know immediately if the Earth was flat...from the first cables pulled in the 1850's until today - NOBODY thought to mention that they needed three times as much cable as they thought - and so there must be some ungodly huge problem with navigation maps.

Please - let's stay within bounds of credibility here!

Either they are "in" on the conspiracy or the world is round.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #327 on: September 02, 2017, 05:24:16 PM »
Either they are "in" on the conspiracy or the world is round.
Or your insistence on the distanced being three times as long as they actually ate stems from an irrational obsession with assuming Cartesian geometries in inappropriate situations.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #328 on: September 02, 2017, 05:49:44 PM »
Either they are "in" on the conspiracy or the world is round.
Or your insistence on the distanced being three times as long as they actually ate stems from an irrational obsession with assuming Cartesian geometries in inappropriate situations.

By reading this message, what comes to my mind is that FEers tend to think like: "The Earth is definitely Flat. We don't know why. We don't how it looks. We can't prove it is flat, we can't map it, nor explain how things work in it. We can't even have consensus between our society's members. But any evidence anyone brings to me about a round Earth, is based on assumptions I decided to be false."

So, you claim the Earth is flat, but you can't give a single resource to base your belief.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #329 on: September 02, 2017, 06:47:58 PM »
Either they are "in" on the conspiracy or the world is round.
Or your insistence on the distanced being three times as long as they actually ate stems from an irrational obsession with assuming Cartesian geometries in inappropriate situations.

Light still travels in straight lines and at the speed it does...I don't care what coordinate systems you choose to use for your map - the underlying shape reveals itself from the flight times and directions of photons.

If you push too far in the direction you're going, you'll end up in a world that is in every regards spherical - except that you've chosen to use a funky coordinate system so you can *call* it "Flat" despite being spherical in every possible way.

That would be a highly amusing position to take!  :-)

Should I make popcorn while you explain it?  I'm sure it'll be entertaining.


Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #330 on: September 02, 2017, 07:24:33 PM »
They would have known from previous trips and assessments of the Round Earth lat/lon readings how much fuel they would need to bring for xxx Round Earth miles.

If you travel 300 miles on a road trip, according to your GPS, and your tank is half empty you have an idea on how much fuel you need.

If people can get "an idea" on how much fuel they need for x Round Earth miles, that means there is a set amount of fuel (within a margin of error, of course) a given vehicle needs for a certain amount of RE miles. You also seem to assume they can extrapolate from the amount of fuel they need for x RE miles to the amount of fuel needed for, say, 3*x RE miles (i.e. three times the amount). All this leads to the assumption that, while a RE mile may not the same distance as a "real" mile, it still describes a constant distance and therefore is proportional to a "real" mile (i.e. there is a constant c such that x RE miles are c*x "real" miles).

Under this assumption, the approach presented by 3DGeek still works.

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #331 on: September 02, 2017, 07:55:03 PM »
They would have known from previous trips and assessments of the Round Earth lat/lon readings how much fuel they would need to bring for xxx Round Earth miles.

If you travel 300 miles on a road trip, according to your GPS, and your tank is half empty you have an idea on how much fuel you need.

Again Tom, you naively assume that airplane designers work by a process of trial and error.  They don't.   They know how much thrust a certain engine produces at a certain speed and altitude LONG before the airplane is off the drawing board.    They know how much drag the airplane design creates - again, from LONG before it's off the drawing board.   They also know the fuel demands of the engine (depending on altitude, airspeed and thrust) long before the engine is bolted onto an airplane.

Knowing thrust and drag as a function of speed - they can tell you to within a fraction of a percent how much fuel a plane will need over a particular flight - including takeoff, climb-out, cruise, descent and landing.

Your ideas of how airplanes are designed is something out of the 1930's - airplanes haven't been designed and built that way since World War Two.

That they'd fly some route and decide that the airplane needs three times as much fuel as they thought is laughable...especially because the 747-400ER's tanks are totally full for a flight of the airlines' predicted distance.   There isn't physically room in the tanks for three times as much.

Also, don't you think they'd wonder why their planes need 100% or 200% additional fuel for flights along some routes than others that they believe are the same distance and duration?  Airlines live and die by the amount of fuel they burn...it's around 40% of the ticket price for most routes:



If those routes that are stretched out by the FE map were true - then Qantas would be paying 120% of the ticket price for fuel compared to airlines who fly similar distances where the FE map doesn't stretch the distances so much.   They'd have gone out of business decades ago!

Don't you imagine that if this was true that they'd be shouting from the rooftops to find science to explain this bizarre phenomenon?   They really don't seem to be doing that.

You need to come up with a better argument - this one is an utter joke.

Hmmm - now here is an interesting thought:  Knowing that 40% of the ticket price is fuel cost - I wonder what would happen if we graphed flight distance against air fare?   If the world is round and the flight distance that the airlines claim is correct - I bet we'd see a graph which is a nice curve.  If the world is flat then there should be a wide spread between fuel cost (and therefore ticket price) between overland and overwater routes - because overwater routes are the ones with the largest distortions compared to the airlines claimed distances.

Oh - wait...here's that graph:



Seems that the cost per mile is pretty linear.   With the discrepency between FET an airline-provided distances getting larger for longer routes - you'd expect a very non-linear curve here.

Honestly Tom...you really imagine you can win this debate?   I don't think so.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #332 on: September 03, 2017, 12:24:53 AM »
The most recent "worst post" I have seen from Tom Bishop is this one:
Quote : "The distance from New York to Paris is unknown."
Even Charles Lindbergh knew the distance in 1927.

And that's not the only one !

Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #333 on: September 03, 2017, 09:00:03 AM »
The most recent "worst post" I have seen from Tom Bishop is this one:
Quote : "The distance from New York to Paris is unknown."
Even Charles Lindbergh knew the distance in 1927.

And that's not the only one !
Followed by cable layers having to order some more when they are half way across the Atlantic!

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #334 on: September 03, 2017, 09:45:04 AM »
Either they are "in" on the conspiracy or the world is round.
Or your insistence on the distanced being three times as long as they actually ate stems from an irrational obsession with assuming Cartesian geometries in inappropriate situations.
What does that mean? Are you suggesting that different areas of the FE use different geometries? This is new to me. Please explain

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #335 on: September 03, 2017, 02:11:10 PM »
Either they are "in" on the conspiracy or the world is round.
Or your insistence on the distanced being three times as long as they actually ate stems from an irrational obsession with assuming Cartesian geometries in inappropriate situations.
What does that mean? Are you suggesting that different areas of the FE use different geometries? This is new to me. Please explain

I know what Pete means - I completely understand his premise.

There are mathematical concepts called "Non-euclidean geometries" where one or more rules of Euclidean geometry are deliberately broken.   You can produce weird - but self-consistent geometries using such techniques...and doing so to make flat maps of spherical planets is one of their uses.   In fact, the "standard" unipolar map of the FE on the Wiki is something *close* to a non-Euclidean map of a spherical Earth (except it doesn't distort the continents as much as a true non-Euclidean version would - and it distorts the oceans by a lot more).

What Pete is suggesting is that by using non-Euclidean geometry, we can make a flat earth map with no "distance errors" because it would violate the normal Euclidean methods for measuring distances (eg, comparing a uniformly marked ruler with points on the map).

This is a clever argument because he effectively gets FE maps that "work" because they are really round earth maps.   Sadly, reality clearly isn't non-Euclidean...so although he'd have a map that worked - the "reality" of it would be a spherical earth because that's the only way his non-Euclidean map would compare to reality.

So what he's saying (in effect) is that we could pick up (say) a Mercator projection map of the RE - and just proclaim that this is the One True FE map and that to measure distances across it, you have to use the non-Euclidean geometry of polar coordinates.   That's fine - but it would require people's bodies to stretch and bloat as they walked around in Australia!   Light would not travel in straight lines (which would handily fix the "sunset" problem!)

This is a very weird view of the world...but if the world really were like that then the it would be round in every single measurable, testable way...except there would be these odd places where there were edges you couldn't see past or move across.

Pete's flat earth would be "round" in all but name...and the only differences to RET reality would be the annoying edges of the map.   If that's his belief system - then fine - but he should understand that by saying that, he's proclaimed himself to be a round-earther.

It's an odd point of view...and not one that other FE'ers are likely to sign up to.

At any rate - his remarks do not apply to the perfectly normal cartesian universe that both RE'ers and FE'ers occupy.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #336 on: September 03, 2017, 09:33:21 PM »
I know what Pete means - I completely understand his premise. [...]
TBH what you described is what I think he was getting at, but I wanted to hear it from him, because there are possible nuances. I'd love for the FE proponents to be a bit less cryptic and a bit more exhaustive in their answers, instead of leaving to us to try and nail jello to the wall. I bet it's a funny show though.

There was another user here (supersentient or something) with views similar but not the same. He disappeared without answering to my follow up questions.

What you wrote is the description of a word game. It's round for all intents and purposes, but I'm calling it flat. The guy is obviously not an idiot, so I have no reason to think that that's precisely what he means. Pete?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 09:50:17 PM by Ga_x2 »

Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #337 on: September 03, 2017, 11:28:13 PM »
I know what Pete means - I completely understand his premise. [...]
TBH what you described is what I think he was getting at, but I wanted to hear it from him, because there are possible nuances. I'd love for the FE proponents to be a bit less cryptic and a bit more exhaustive in their answers, instead of leaving to us to try and nail jello to the wall. I bet it's a funny show though.

There was another user here (supersentient or something) with views similar but not the same. He disappeared without answering to my follow up questions.

What you wrote is the description of a word game. It's round for all intents and purposes, but I'm calling it flat. The guy is obviously not an idiot, so I have no reason to think that that's precisely what he means. Pete?
There's another over on the other forums that has espoused something similar to this, and even go so far as to allow space travel because Earth is 'non-Euclideon' flat, and thus to an outside observer does in fact appear round. I don't personally understand why he then insists the world is still flat, when the idea appears to make it round on all but a (potentially untestable) technicality. But it DOES get around a large number of the issues having to do with space and the conspiracy if the conspiracy doesn't have to exist.

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #338 on: September 04, 2017, 02:15:41 AM »
I know what Pete means - I completely understand his premise. [...]
TBH what you described is what I think he was getting at, but I wanted to hear it from him, because there are possible nuances. I'd love for the FE proponents to be a bit less cryptic and a bit more exhaustive in their answers, instead of leaving to us to try and nail jello to the wall. I bet it's a funny show though.

There was another user here (supersentient or something) with views similar but not the same. He disappeared without answering to my follow up questions.

What you wrote is the description of a word game. It's round for all intents and purposes, but I'm calling it flat. The guy is obviously not an idiot, so I have no reason to think that that's precisely what he means. Pete?
There's another over on the other forums that has espoused something similar to this, and even go so far as to allow space travel because Earth is 'non-Euclideon' flat, and thus to an outside observer does in fact appear round. I don't personally understand why he then insists the world is still flat, when the idea appears to make it round on all but a (potentially untestable) technicality. But it DOES get around a large number of the issues having to do with space and the conspiracy if the conspiracy doesn't have to exist.

Yes...saying it's a flat earth that has as it's fundamental version of space-time a structure that uses a non-euclidean (spherical) coordinate system...is just using a bunch of long words to say that the world is round.

At that point, it is indeed just a word-game.

Well - unless he's going to insist that the world still has "edges" - in which case we'd be in the odd situation of having a spherical world with a seam in it that was uncrossable - and over which even light could not cross.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Offline Horhang

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Re: Using airline flight data.
« Reply #339 on: September 04, 2017, 04:13:21 AM »
That post was already addressed. Here was my reply:

If any of those navigational systems use Latitude and Longitude then they are using a Round Earth coordinate system. It is difficult to imagine that Longitude and latitude is not used in any navigational system.

The only reply from the poster was a statement that Latitude and Longitude is correct. No evidence was provided for this statement. The only evidence in this thread are my sources showing that GPS provides incorrect distances. No sources have been provided show that any Round Earth navigational system provides correct distances. You and Frank continually refuse to provide evidence of such. There is nothing further to discuss on this matter.

Granted this is early in the discussion, but there is a very simple reason runners gps does not match course Distance. Course Distance is measured on the ideal line. Unless you are an elite runner at the front of the race free to choose exactly where you run, you do not run the ideal line. You take longer routes through corners, you can't run the straight line through an s curve in the road......
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2009/03/racing-line-understanding-how-courses.html