[andruszkow]

Well, I won't deny, some of the churches in question make me quite uncomfortable as well. I am merely pointing out that the loss in religiosity in this country is predominantly from the liberal wing.

The fact that the Bishop in charge of the Seaman's Church in Sweden actually recommended that crosses be removed from it and other churches, and that Muslim prayer rooms be opened in them in order to accommodate your Muslim guests should be an indicator that all is NOT well in the Kingdom. Granted, the suggestion was not acted upon, but the fact that someone was retarded enough to MAKE it...

The fact that the Government only lists a 1.5% of Muslims simply indicates under-reporting. Having read the data myself, it simply states that a person is counted as a religious Muslim if they say they are. If they neglect to answer the question... I have Swedish friends myself. And no, I don't actually watch ANY TV, let alone Fox News. I consider the television to be a bane of our society, and so only really own one for my wife's sake. I read my news and get it on the radio.

The reason crime rates are higher here is simple. We have 326 million people to control. There are nowhere near that many in Sweden, or Finland, or England, or what-have-you. Stupid question.

Notice, even the website admits there are places where the police struggle to do their duty. A government will rarely admit the full truth of a situation like that. So, ask yourself, how much worse is it than they are letting on?

That argument is simply bullshit. So do it on a per-capita basis.

Studies shows that the rates of murder, rape, corruption, state of health care, happiness, education etc are much worse in religious countries and states than in secular. In the 90s, a study even revealed that only 0.2% of the prison population in the US are atheist (agnostic). There's a tendency that states (US) with high murder rates are highly religious, while states with the lowest murder rates are among the least religious.

"The fact that the Government only lists a 1.5% of Muslims simply indicates under-reporting"

Inventing stuff like this doesn't grant you the right to treat whatever you say as facts, when 1) You're obviously wrong and 2) You're not taking the time necessary to actually fact check your comments about European countries. This is so typically American it hurts. You're an ignorant, and thank you for proving that.

So the prayer room suggestion was turned down. That's good. What are you trying to prove with this? There'll always be people making ill-founded suggestions like this, like the stand-your-ground Law. The difference is that suggestions like that doesn't come to life here.

[Poseidon]

That argument is simply bullshit. So do it on a per-capita basis.

Studies shows that the rates of murder, rape, corruption, state of health care, happiness, education etc are much worse in religious countries and states than in secular. In the 90s, a study even revealed that only 0.2% of the prison population in the US are atheist (agnostic). There's a tendency that states (US) with high murder rates are highly religious, while states with the lowest murder rates are among the least religious.

Tell that to California, or Illinois, or New York, all of which are more secular than Iowa, or Nebraska, or Kansas. The first three have very high murder rates, and the last three are fairly low. Having lived in California and Iowa and Tennessee, I can ASSURE you that the latter two have a lower murder rate than the first. Now, I admit to having hated Tennessee, but that was simply because I am not fond of the SBC.

"The fact that the Government only lists a 1.5% of Muslims simply indicates under-reporting"

Inventing stuff like this doesn't grant you the right to treat whatever you say as facts, when 1) You're obviously wrong and 2) You're not taking the time necessary to actually fact check your comments about European countries. This is so typically American it hurts. You're an ignorant, and thank you for proving that.

When you have no logical response, resort to insult. Sorry, but that won't play in Peoria, or anywhere else, for that matter.

So the prayer room suggestion was turned down. That's good. What are you trying to prove with this? There'll always be people making ill-founded suggestions like this, like the stand-your-ground Law. The difference is that suggestions like that doesn't come to life here.

The stand your ground law is actually one of our better ones, but I would not expect a European quasi-Socialist to get it, any more than I expect you to understand the logic of paying less than about US$6.00 for a gallon of gas, with 80% of that being Tax, or paying (at least in France) less than 75% income tax if you make over 1,000,000 euros a year. Go figure.

[andruszkow]

Quasi-socialist, eh? Is that your view on Europe? We're all holding hands and watch arte-noir movies together?

The taxation here allows us to have free health care, free education, 5 (in average 6, for some 7) weeks vacation a year, 6 months maternity leave etc etc. We don't complain, simply because all in all, it works. I don't even know what your point is with that, other than shooting yourself in the foot with that remark.

Your murder rate facts contradicts studies on the subject. Last time I checked, there was an increase of homicides that can be written off as justified related to the stand-your-ground law. The difference is cultural. The mindset is different. Our mindset is basically that people are not allowed to kill people. Your mindset is to implement exceptions.

In 2015, the murder rate in Kansas was higher than that of new york. Same with Nebraska.

[Poseidon]

Quasi-socialist, eh? Is that your view on Europe? We're all holding hands and watch arte-noir movies together?

The taxation here allows us to have free health care, free education, 5 (in average 6, for some 7) weeks vacation a year, 6 months maternity leave etc etc. We don't complain, simply because all in all, it works. I don't even know what your point is with that, other than shooting yourself in the foot with that remark.

Your murder rate facts contradicts studies on the subject. Last time I checked, there was an increase of homicides that can be written off as justified related to the stand-your-ground law. The difference is cultural. The mindset is different. Our mindset is basically that people are not allowed to kill people. Your mindset is to implement exceptions.

In 2015, the murder rate in Kansas was higher than that of new york. Same with Nebraska.

For some reason, I doubt the statistics for NY, KS, and NE, and that doesn't even mention CA and IL, or IA.

Your vaunted free health care is such that people who have the money often come here to get medical treatments in order to avoid the delays so common in Europe. This of course in no way justifies the mess of our health system, which admittedly could use reform.

We also have free vacation, albeit not as much. If you need that much holiday, you are lazy. We also have free public education, so that is just a stupid pat-on-the-back comment. We also get maternity leave, although again, not as much. If you need six months leave, you should probably just stay home and be a housewife.

And the fact that your "culture" (I use the term loosely) does not allow a man to protect himself, his family, and his property, but would charge him with murder for defending himself against a would-be rapist and/or murderer, simply implies gross retardation on the part of your lawmakers and the morons who elect them.

European culture USED to have value and relevance. Now it is a disaster of immorality, cultural filth, and incivility. All you have to do is look at the attacks holding France hostage, in thrall to the Muslim animals she has allowed into the nation, to observe what I am talking about. I realise you may be too dense to do that... But there you are.

[andruszkow]

First of all, telling someone they're ignorant on a subject is not offensive. It merely suggests that you're uninformed. Referring to someone as dense is another thing. I didn't expect a more elegant, respectful, grown up level of debate from you though, so I'll let that slip.

For some reason, I doubt the statistics for NY, KS, and NE, and that doesn't even mention CA and IL, or IA.

Of course you do. Pick and choose to fit your argument. Standard, boring MO.

Your vaunted free health care is such that people who have the money often come here to get medical treatments in order to avoid the delays so common in Europe. This of course in no way justifies the mess of our health system, which admittedly could use reform.

Yes, people go abroad, not only to the US, to skip the queue, which is totally fine. You say "often", I say do your research, again. You're just parroting whatever post shared on Facebook or article read on the internet you chose to base your standpoint on.

We also have free vacation, albeit not as much. If you need that much holiday, you are lazy.

Haha, really? It's not about who "needs" that much vacation, it's about how the system works as a whole. People are generally happy here. Part of the reason for that is not "feeling" over encumbered by labor. We're not lazy. We're progressive, innovative and hard at work. We just have a system that realizes you don't get a happy population paying them a minimum wage of only $7.50 (as opposed to ~$20), and a happy population with a satisfied and rested working force are more productive and innovative. There's always exceptions to this. Again, your view on the European way (especially the Scandinavian way) is tainted with your own definition of right and wrong.

And the fact that your "culture" (I use the term loosely) does not allow a man to protect himself, his family, and his property, but would charge him with murder for defending himself against a would-be rapist and/or murderer, simply implies gross retardation on the part of your lawmakers and the morons who elect them.

We do allow people to protect themselfs. We just don't justify killing other people in self-defence. I actually agree with you on this point though to some extent, but again, it's a mindset that doesn't value ones life over anothers. It's a fundamental difference between Europe and the US, there's no right or wrong. We have different opinions about this, and that's that.

European culture USED to have value and relevance. Now it is a disaster of immorality, cultural filth, and incivility. All you have to do is look at the attacks holding France hostage, in thrall to the Muslim animals she has allowed into the nation, to observe what I am talking about. I realise you may be too dense to do that... But there you are.

Immorality? Where? Cultural filth? Where? We largely honour our culture and our traditions. Mostly because we actually have culture and traditions that dates back centuries, something that the US lacks.

You're offering me an example of what has happened in France. We refer to that as terrorism, a term that is largely regarded as "something about Muslims". How many civilian lives has been lost due to America's invasion in the Middle East since 2001? You call it war, that gives you the ability to write those deaths off as collateral damage. How many lives lost in general does America account for in the populistic pursuit of spreading democracy and freedom? The definition of terrorism is the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. - Those can be based in religion. Last time I checked, the largest so-called secular country in the world has "In God we trust" printed on their dollar bills.

The fact that you're using the term "Muslim animals" says everything about you. You're not only an ignorant, you're also a bigot. I'll generally disregard any position you take or argument you make from here on out, because you're simply not mentally or intellectually fit to participate in a debate about these subjects, at all.

So, to back up a bit:

It doesn't really change anything regarding religion and flat earth.

[Poseidon]

Even I agree the minimum wage issue here IS an issue. But what is the point of paying someone US$20.00 an hour if you are going to tax them at 55%, as Belgium does?

Furthermore, your whining about war simply means you,like most Europeans, are wusses. What we SHOULD do with Islamic State is go to the territory they control and carpet-bomb it so that anything larger than a cockroach ceases to exist. The same goes for Assad and Iran.

Given that in most Scandinavian States, with Finland being a notable exception, the Churches, being a significant PART of the culture and tradition you claim to have, now ordain and marry homosexuals, and tolerate just about every other liberal perversion, I would say your vaunted culture and tradition has mostly been betrayed.

I agree that the USA is a young country, and that carries weaknesses. But at least we are not quite yet at the State cultural-national suicide that most of Scandinavia has gotten to. The fact that our money has that motto on is not my personal preference, and it only started in the McCarthy era of the 1950's.

Yes, I do refer to Muslims as animals. I have read the Qur'an three times, and know some of it in Arabic. I have read the Haadith of the "Prophet". I have attended mosques. I know the threat of which I speak. The fact that YOU are too dim to realise the danger they represent is your problem, and not mine.

[andruszkow]

Even I agree the minimum wage issue here IS an issue. But what is the point of paying someone US$20.00 an hour if you are going to tax them at 55%, as Belgium does?

Furthermore, your whining about war simply means you,like most Europeans, are wusses. What we SHOULD do with Islamic State is go to the territory they control and carpet-bomb it so that anything larger than a cockroach ceases to exist. The same goes for Assad and Iran.

Given that in most Scandinavian States, with Finland being a notable exception, the Churches, being a significant PART of the culture and tradition you claim to have, now ordain and marry homosexuals, and tolerate just about every other liberal perversion, I would say your vaunted culture and tradition has mostly been betrayed.

I agree that the USA is a young country, and that carries weaknesses. But at least we are not quite yet at the State cultural-national suicide that most of Scandinavia has gotten to. The fact that our money has that motto on is not my personal preference, and it only started in the McCarthy era of the 1950's.

Again, an entire reply consisting of ignorance and bigotry. I'm not defending Islam. In fact, I hate the institution that is religion in itself.

Yes, I do refer to Muslims as animals. I have read the Qur'an three times, and know some of it in Arabic. I have read the Haadith of the "Prophet". I have attended mosques. I know the threat of which I speak. The fact that YOU are too dim to realise the danger they represent is your problem, and not mine.

"They" - There it is. You're an idiot, at best. Your viewpoints makes you a part of the group you refer to as "they" for everyone not consumed by the level of bigotry at display here. So, I'll just pull an Intikam, put you on ignore and await someone with an acceptable level of intelligence to add something to this thread. For your information, it doesn't take much.

[Poseidon]

So I have won the argument. When you have no logical response, turn to insults and ignore. Typical liberal. And you are ASSuming, of course, that I appreciate the unique blend of State and Religion in the USA. In reality, I don't. If it were my choice, religious schools K-12 would be closed. All children would be educated in Public Schools. Religious organisations would have to register with the State, and WOULD pay Tax. The Gregorian Calendar would be replaced by a secular one, probably the French Republican Calendar. Marriages would be recognised only civilly, and a religious wedding would be your issue.

But of course,you ASSume that because I am a churchgoer, I must like all the weird aspects about religion and State in the USA. Well, you know what they say about ASSuming.

[Jura-Glenlivet]

So I have won the argument.

Lets see, carpet bomb them, check, homosexuals-perversion, check, Muslim=animals, check, flag on lawn, red-neck, check.
Sometimes the last man speaking isn't the winner, It's just that mental case with a bible shouting from the hood of the SUV standing on bricks on his lawn, again, and there is no sport in shooting fish in a barrel, have fun.

[Poseidon]

So I have won the argument.

Lets see, carpet bomb them, check, homosexuals-perversion, check, Muslim=animals, check, flag on lawn, red-neck, check.
Sometimes the last man speaking isn't the winner, It's just that mental case with a bible shouting from the hood of the SUV standing on bricks on his lawn, again, and there is no sport in shooting fish in a barrel, have fun.

That was just a retarded argument. Since I don't have a flag on the lawn, nor a Bible to thump (I do own many versions, just not for that purpose), and I have already stated my belief in Secularism.

Keep in mind, that according to Sharia, which Muslims want to impose in any country in which they become the majority (there is already a Muslim political party in Holland that has as its stated purpose a REFUSAL to assimilate), atheists are punished by death. Christians and Jews may only exist if they pay a special Tax to do so, called the Jizyah Tax. They also are subject to all kinds of rules that make them Second Class citizens, such as not being able to serve as a witness in a court case involving a Muslim, men not being able to marry Muslim women, but the reverse being allowed and encouraged, being required to wear special clothing so they are immediately identifiable (shades of Nazism, anyone? The Qur'an and the Haadith had it first), and much more.

You are succeeding in making yourself look like a blithering idiot. But please: do continue. It amuses me.

[TheTruthIsOnHere]

So I have won the argument.

Lets see, carpet bomb them, check, homosexuals-perversion, check, Muslim=animals, check, flag on lawn, red-neck, check.
Sometimes the last man speaking isn't the winner, It's just that mental case with a bible shouting from the hood of the SUV standing on bricks on his lawn, again, and there is no sport in shooting fish in a barrel, have fun.

That was just a retarded argument. Since I don't have a flag on the lawn, nor a Bible to thump (I do own many versions, just not for that purpose), and I have already stated my belief in Secularism.

Keep in mind, that according to Sharia, which Muslims want to impose in any country in which they become the majority (there is already a Muslim political party in Holland that has as its stated purpose a REFUSAL to assimilate), atheists are punished by death. Christians and Jews may only exist if they pay a special Tax to do so, called the Jizyah Tax. They also are subject to all kinds of rules that make them Second Class citizens, such as not being able to serve as a witness in a court case involving a Muslim, men not being able to marry Muslim women, but the reverse being allowed and encouraged, being required to wear special clothing so they are immediately identifiable (shades of Nazism, anyone? The Qur'an and the Haadith had it first), and much more.

You are succeeding in making yourself look like a blithering idiot. But please: do continue. It amuses me.

Sharia law is another example of men using religion as a form of control. All organized religion operates for the same purpose. To own a Man's mind, and to extort him in the process. It is the evil men that twist Islam for their own gain that are the problem.

Everyone looks at dark ages and understands Catholicism as the problem it was, and laugh at how dumb people must have been at the time. Yet we excuse Modern Islam, which is just as oppressive, controlling, and regressive. We look at the barbaric customs and pretend it is normal for the sake of "multi-culturalism" and not being charged with hate speech (something we hopefully wont have to worry about in America thanks to our 1st Amendment).

I value Women in society, I think homosexuals have a right to consensual relationships. Most of all, I don't consider someone less than human, or worthy of death, for not agreeing with my concept of God. You can hate religion as a whole, but you have to be honest about which one goes against those basic human rights I just spoke of. We can hate Billy Graham and Evangelicals, but they aren't still executing people in the streets.

[totallackey]

The ONLY one I really have serious issues with is Islam, simply because of their tendency to enjoy blowing crap up.

I am sorry...

You claim to have studied Islam yet you are going to make the claim that Islam enjoys blowing crap up...

That's funny...

Also xenophobic and a couple of other phobes mixed in...

[totallackey]

Now, on a purely PERSONAL level, I do believe the State should be separate from the Church =/= And Islam should be forbidden outright as a direct threat to the State
Now, on a purely PERSONAL level, I do believe the State should be separate from the Church =/= ALL religions should be obligated to register with the State

Do you typically exhibit this extraordinary level of cognitive dissonance?

Or is it the onset of early Alzheimer's?

Honestly, you appear to be nothing more than a hypocrite of the HIGHEST order.

I think you need to go down and shack up with Czar Bush I and II....

They are still hell bent on fighting the Crusades...

[Poseidon]

TOTALLACKEY, that was a stupid response. Islam should be forbidden because, w/ Sharia, it attempts to undercut the constitution of of a secular State, ASIDE from liking to blow crap up. As far as homosexuality, have any of you ever seen a gay goat or a gay canary? No. Only people (about 3%) like to (in the case of men) pack their pork in another dude's poop schute. Now, what you do in your bedroom is your business, & I'm no peeping Tom, but DON'T try to teach my kids that this is normal behaviour in the public schools. Keep your unusual preferences to yourself. Back to my original point, Islam is really the only religion w/ which I have issues, & that is because they are by their own definition subversive of State Power.

[andruszkow]

Mind blown. One must resist the urge to go apeshit.

[Poseidon]

Mind blown. One must resist the urge to go apeshit.

My, that's mature. Well, no one ever gave you much credit for having anything much in the way of brains.

You, know, if I told a psychiatrist that I wanted my left arm surgically removed, he would put me on meds and in therapy. But if I tell him I want my junk removed, somehow that $h!t is normal! Go figure!

[Jura-Glenlivet]

For someone who uses insults to other peoples intelligence as a default you have a lot of gaps in your own knowledge. For instance;

An estimated one-quarter of all black swans pairings are of homosexual males. They steal nests, or form temporary threesomes with females to obtain eggs, driving away the female after she lays the eggs, more of their cygnets survive to adulthood than those of different-sex pairs, possibly due to their superior ability to defend large portions of land. The same reasoning has been applied to male flamingo pairs raising chicks.

 One report on sheep cited below states:
Approximately 8% of rams exhibit sexual preferences [that is, even when given a choice] for male partners (male-oriented rams) in contrast to most rams, which prefer female partners (female-oriented rams).
Bison, Bonobo's, dolphins, elephants, giraffes, lions same sex relationships of both kinds have all been noted, up to 25% of female Japanese macaques in some troops.

Peter Bockman, the scientific advisor of the exhibition Against Nature? in 2007, stated;

No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue.

I know your grubby little book and its backward thinking adherents don't like it, but it's true, which is one of the reasons why, the world would be a better place without it and them.

[Poseidon]

For someone who uses insults to other peoples intelligence as a default you have a lot of gaps in your own knowledge. For instance;

An estimated one-quarter of all black swans pairings are of homosexual males. They steal nests, or form temporary threesomes with females to obtain eggs, driving away the female after she lays the eggs, more of their cygnets survive to adulthood than those of different-sex pairs, possibly due to their superior ability to defend large portions of land. The same reasoning has been applied to male flamingo pairs raising chicks.

 One report on sheep cited below states:
Approximately 8% of rams exhibit sexual preferences [that is, even when given a choice] for male partners (male-oriented rams) in contrast to most rams, which prefer female partners (female-oriented rams).
Bison, Bonobo's, dolphins, elephants, giraffes, lions same sex relationships of both kinds have all been noted, up to 25% of female Japanese macaques in some troops.

Peter Bockman, the scientific advisor of the exhibition Against Nature? in 2007, stated;

No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue.

I know your grubby little book and its backward thinking adherents don't like it, but it's true, which is one of the reasons why, the world would be a better place without it and them.

Actually, the Bible has no relevance to my objection to homosexuality. I notice you do not give references for your sources, which causes me question the legitimacy of same.

Beyond this, strictly on the human level, continuous anal sex, with EITHER gender, is injurious to health. It ultimately can result in the receiver having to wear a bag courtesy of a worn out sphincter. In other words, wrong hole, idiots!

Certainly there are hermaphroditic species in nature, as well as asexual ones. No $h!t, Shirlock! That is expected. Worms don't reproduce by normal male-female reproduction. The idea that two birds, or even two lions, of the same gender would protect the offspring is not shocking in any way. But the idea of two male lions butt-humping each other? Not so much.

I have seen idiocy on high levels before, but never quite to THIS degree. Oh, well. As Forrest Gump said, "Stupid is as stupid does."

[Poseidon]

Oh, and tell me how great Sweden is, when they violate the rights of a midwife. I don't generally see much Fox News, but:

www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/12/swedish-midwife-loses-fight-to-be-exempt-from-performing-abortions.html?ref=yfp

So, lovely country that won't even keep up with the European code of rights.

[andruszkow]

No sources needed, homosexuality in nature has been known for quite a while now. It is probably an evolutionary step that either works out or doesn't. The balance of the birth rate, for instance with the example of the swans, will decide it in the long run. That's how evolution works.

To be quite honest, and objective, you're the only one standing out as an idiot here. The increasing amount of curse word usage, to either cover for the fact that you're raging because of inadequacy or because the institution in which you have invested all of your beliefs is being subjected to what you define as blasphemy, is a testiment to that.