Poseidon

Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2017, 10:29:00 PM »
Also note my general comments about the backwardness of Sub-Saharan Africa, Niger or otherwise. The continent was a disaster before the British and the French, and since they left.

Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2018, 06:49:29 PM »
You asked why they would lie about flat earth.  The Qur'an states that Satan will mislead them all and he will command them to change the creation of God [4:119], this is why mankind says that the earth is a globe instead of flat.  They also say it took billions of years for the heavens and earth to be created when God said it took 6 days in Genesis and the Qur'an [50:38].  They also say mankind evolved from apes over millions of years instead of Adam being created from dust like Genesis and the Qur'an say.  Mankind follows Satan and have changed the creation of God.  But no change should there be in the creation of God, that is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know [30:30].  And so you have Christians and Muslims believing the earth is a globe and all those other changes because they do not know and take their religion as amusement and diversion and are thus deluded by the world [7:51].  They also divided the religion and became sects [23:52 - 53], yet God revealed the Qur'an, the Gospel, and the Torah [3:3 - 4], and indeed it is one religion, the religion of Abraham inclining toward truth [2:135].

For more verses from all 3 Books revealed by God and information on flat earth, read
https://quranicwarners.org/creation/
Follow those who do not ask for any payment, and they are rightly guided. [36:21, Qur'an]

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2018, 09:11:09 PM »
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And things don't self-create, either. I DO understand that you are not that bright, but do TRY to come up with better arguments than that!

What created God?

ROUNDY, come on, you can do better than that! Even Plato spoke of the Uncaused Cause, the Unmoved Mover. Ultimately, you come back to something that has ALWAYS itself existed. Now scientists themselves know that the Universe itself had a beginning. So beyond that you have to posit Something Else.

No, they don't. There's no reason to assume the universe ever had a beginning. We have reason to think there was a Big Bang but not necessarily that the matter that came out of the Big Bang wasn't always there. Indeed given that it's a scientific principle that matter and energy can't just appear out of nowhere I would suggest that what you think scientists know and what they actually know are contradictory to each other.

And if you accept the theory that what we call the universe is actually one of many similar universes and that new "universes" are constantly being created as many scientists do it even further takes away the necessity of a divine Creator.

No need to posit "something else".

If everything must have been created, so must have been God. If it's possible for something to exist without being created, then there's no reason to assume that the universe doesn't fall into that category itself. But as you said, things don't self-create. The only rational explanation if that is the case is that the substance of the universe was always there. Or God, I suppose, but you haven't provided a shred of reason to believe His existence is more likely.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

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Offline BillO

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2018, 02:52:56 PM »
Where I want to get to is the question whether "flat-earth automatically calls for believing in God as the creator or not?."
God - I don't think so because personally I don't believe in a god.  However, it would certainly need a creator.  Nothing about the FE hypothesis present on the site could have occurred naturally.  By that I mean the laws and theories of physics are not observed.  FE throw these out where they are inconvenient but has yet to replace them with laws and theories (and I mean theories here, not wild unsupported ideas) that can support the natural formation of the FE - ipso facto - the FE is a creation.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2018, 03:59:19 PM »
Where I want to get to is the question whether "flat-earth automatically calls for believing in God as the creator or not?."
God - I don't think so because personally I don't believe in a god.  However, it would certainly need a creator.  Nothing about the FE hypothesis present on the site could have occurred naturally.  By that I mean the laws and theories of physics are not observed.  FE throw these out where they are inconvenient but has yet to replace them with laws and theories (and I mean theories here, not wild unsupported ideas) that can support the natural formation of the FE - ipso facto - the FE is a creation.

If you set physical laws in such a way that makes your observations impossible, then that doesn't really make any sense to say "this requires a creator". Our current understanding of the physical universe is actually quite limited, with even objects as obvious as galaxies being currently unexplained under most theories. To say "this does not fit our current physical models, so therefore it was made by a god" is quite silly, and speaks only to your own ignorance of the subject at hand. You are fit to talk about neither a round earth nor a flat earth.

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Offline BillO

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2018, 06:45:26 PM »
If you set physical laws in such a way that makes your observations impossible, then that doesn't really make any sense to say "this requires a creator". Our current understanding of the physical universe is actually quite limited, with even objects as obvious as galaxies being currently unexplained under most theories. To say "this does not fit our current physical models, so therefore it was made by a god" is quite silly, and speaks only to your own ignorance of the subject at hand. You are fit to talk about neither a round earth nor a flat earth.
Thanks for the insult.

The thing with galaxies is, well we do understand them to some extent, probably greater than you think - we have reasonable hypothesis for how they formed, what they consist of and we do observe many, many of them so are forced to "They are natural, but we don't yet fully understand them".  In the case of FE, we have many one-off things that cannot be explained and cannot be seen anywhere else in the visible universe.  For instance, under RE we have robust theories that explain the birth and evolution of stars, and when we apply those theories to the sun (assuming a spherical earth outlook) it fits perfectly.  It's just another star.  However, under an FE outlook, we are forced to see the sun as not being a star at all.  It has peculiar properties and peculiar behaviors that have no model to explain them.  Under FE hypotheses (there is more than one, and the sun is different in most of them) it is truly unique in the cosmos and its properties and behaviors only came into being with the creation of whatever FE hypothesis you adopt.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

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Offline J-Man

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #86 on: July 21, 2018, 03:36:09 PM »
People are funny, they want to make everything out soooo big. Fact, you're on God's little footstool covered in a molten glass dome. The footstool is probably around 20,000 miles in diameter and the dome say 400 miles up in the center. Beyond the dome is Heaven, God gives us this light show in the sky projected on the dome. How big is heaven, you're going to need to die here in the flesh to find out. But get a grip folks, it's a small world we live in, God likens it to a tent and we are Grasshoppers jumping around inside. Space? It's Gods painting. Your days are numbered, use them wisely, this is a test of your faith, you ain't that smart, your brain barely registers, your a fucking grasshopper for Gods sake.


God and Time have always existed together, the problem is, you can't wrap your head around that. It's ok, you're not supposed to, it got one A-hole in trouble, now look at him, loser......
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 03:40:15 PM by J-Man »
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2018, 10:29:06 AM »

I agree. But that isn't the mainstream thought process. That dictates that our existence is a mere coincidence, as statistically impossible as it would be, and there is no real explanation for the sudden appearance of life and the universe.
I didn't say that ^. I just don't know how to do the quotes thingy


Yes but because of the unfathomable number of planets in our universe it's is statistically likely that life would occur
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 10:30:46 AM by Sethlawton1 »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #88 on: August 19, 2018, 05:35:13 AM »

I agree. But that isn't the mainstream thought process. That dictates that our existence is a mere coincidence, as statistically impossible as it would be, and there is no real explanation for the sudden appearance of life and the universe.
I didn't say that ^. I just don't know how to do the quotes thingy


Yes but because of the unfathomable number of planets in our universe it's is statistically likely that life would occur

Not if the laws governing the universe themselves weren't fine-tuned on several fronts to allow for the existence of life.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #89 on: August 19, 2018, 06:05:49 AM »

I agree. But that isn't the mainstream thought process. That dictates that our existence is a mere coincidence, as statistically impossible as it would be, and there is no real explanation for the sudden appearance of life and the universe.
I didn't say that ^. I just don't know how to do the quotes thingy


Yes but because of the unfathomable number of planets in our universe it's is statistically likely that life would occur

Not if the laws governing the universe themselves weren't fine-tuned on several fronts to allow for the existence of life.


To be fair, this assumes life can't exist in another configuration of physics.  Or that a universe wouldn't stabalize on its own.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #90 on: August 19, 2018, 11:24:23 AM »

I agree. But that isn't the mainstream thought process. That dictates that our existence is a mere coincidence, as statistically impossible as it would be, and there is no real explanation for the sudden appearance of life and the universe.
I didn't say that ^. I just don't know how to do the quotes thingy


Yes but because of the unfathomable number of planets in our universe it's is statistically likely that life would occur

Not if the laws governing the universe themselves weren't fine-tuned on several fronts to allow for the existence of life.


To be fair, this assumes life can't exist in another configuration of physics.

Well, sure, but it's a pretty safe bet that (for just one example) if our atoms couldn't hold together because the strong nuclear force was slightly off from where it is, life wouldn't be possible.

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Or that a universe wouldn't stabalize on its own.

"Stabilize?" You mean that if life hadn't been possible the universe would have, like, fixed itself so that life would have been possible? Can you explain this better?
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #91 on: August 19, 2018, 12:38:07 PM »
Well, sure, but it's a pretty safe bet that (for just one example) if our atoms couldn't hold together because the strong nuclear force was slightly off from where it is, life wouldn't be possible.


Sure.  Life as we know it.  But that doesn't mean other patterns couldn't emerge.  Other forces binding sub-atomic particles together or perhaps those particles simply creating their own patterns.  I mean, how did anything form just because protons and neutrons could form?  How did they even decide to form in that configuration anyway?  And where did Electrons come in?  It's all weird to think about but I can't see a reason why other things wouldn't have occured if variables would have changed.

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"Stabilize?" You mean that if life hadn't been possible the universe would have, like, fixed itself so that life would have been possible? Can you explain this better?

Not "fixed" itself, more like calmed down and found some kind of order.  Like if the strong nuclear force didn't exist, all those sub-atomic particles would still exist, floating around.  Eventually something would happen to make them slow down, possibly condense using other forces.  But the hot soupy mess of creation would become relatively stable somehow.  Different rules, sure, but stable rules.  And where there's rules, there's patterns.  And where there's patterns, life is possible.  Not guarnteed, but possible.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 03:40:13 PM by Lord Dave »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #92 on: August 19, 2018, 01:34:33 PM »
Well, sure, but it's a pretty safe bet that (for just one example) if our atoms couldn't hold together because the strong nuclear force was slightly off from where it is, life wouldn't be possible.
Sure.  Life as we know it.  But that doesn't mean other patterns couldn't emerge.  Other forces binding sub-atomic particles together or perhaps those particles simply creating their own patterns.  I mean, how did anything form just because protons and neutrons could form?  How did they even decide to form in that configuration anyway?  And where did Electrons come in?

These are the very questions the various fundamental forces are supposed to explain. They wouldn't be able to exist without these laws being just right. If the strong nuclear force is just a tiny bit weaker, subatomic particles are just floating around, sure there may be some order to it but there's no chance for anything we would define as life. 

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It's all weird to think about but I can't see a reason why other things wouldn't have occured if variables would have changed.

That's what I'm saying, other things would have occurred.

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Or that a universe wouldn't stabalize on its own.


"Stabilize?" You mean that if life hadn't been possible the universe would have, like, fixed itself so that life would have been possible? Can you explain this better?
Not "fixed" itself, more like calmed down and found some kind of order.  Like if the strong nuclear force didn't exist, all those sub-atomic particles would still exist, floating around.  Eventually something would happen to make them slow down, possibly condense using other forces.  But the hot soupy mess of creation would become relatively stable somehow.  Different rules, sure, but stable rules.  And where there's rules, there's patterns.  And where there's patterns, life is possible.  Not guarnteed, but possible.

Pure speculation. This isn't science. If the strong nuclear force was too weak things would never calm down to the point where subatomic particles could suddenly bind together because the mechanism for it simply wouldn't be there. Saying "but something else might possibly happen..." well sure, I suppose, and there might be a God too, and you have to remember that we're talking about just one fundamental aspect of the universe that was fine-tuned for life, you'd have to say the same logic would apply to all the other things too, and it seems illogical to think that the universe would "right" itself no matter what was getting in the way of life. And if you believe the universe is so hell-bent on life existing, well, you are attributing a will on the part of the universe itself favoring the existence of life, and I am perfectly fine with accepting such a willful entity as God.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 01:36:04 PM by Roundy »
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2018, 05:14:26 PM »
The universe is not in an optimal condition for life. There are in fact better possible conditions. It’s also less and less obvious a universe capable of supporting life is a unique configuration.

http://cosmos.nautil.us/feature/113/the-not-so-fine-tuning-of-the-universe
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #94 on: August 19, 2018, 05:35:50 PM »
If we define life as simply a set of conditions that occur in the right order, then really any objects in any given amount of universes could produce life. Even cosmic gasses, if they were to collide in space in just the right order, could produce a consciousness more vast than the human mind.

However, life in our universe is not this way, or at least the life we are familiar with is not. It's not a lightning flash of super-intelligence, it's self-replicating and evolving, with different tiers of consciousness. That does require a more specific universe. The idea that another universe could contain it is irrelevant, since as far as we know, only one universe exists, and it only has one law, that energy must be conserved. All other universal qualities stem from this one law, and anything that obeys it is theoretically allowed. The idea that our universe, specifically, could exist in some other configuration, is complete nonsense, because this means that the one law is not in some other universe; that is, the claim is that some other universe doesn't conserve energy. Since a universe that can't conserve energy would always, well, explode, then it cannot exist. Therefore, ours is the only kind of universe that exists. There can be 'parallel universes' in which different quantum probabilities resulted in different outcomes on a large scale, but overall, the qualities of our universe can't really be any different than they are without creating a universe that contradicts itself.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Religion on Flat Earth
« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2018, 07:57:18 PM »
Well, sure, but it's a pretty safe bet that (for just one example) if our atoms couldn't hold together because the strong nuclear force was slightly off from where it is, life wouldn't be possible.
Sure.  Life as we know it.  But that doesn't mean other patterns couldn't emerge.  Other forces binding sub-atomic particles together or perhaps those particles simply creating their own patterns.  I mean, how did anything form just because protons and neutrons could form?  How did they even decide to form in that configuration anyway?  And where did Electrons come in?

These are the very questions the various fundamental forces are supposed to explain. They wouldn't be able to exist without these laws being just right. If the strong nuclear force is just a tiny bit weaker, subatomic particles are just floating around, sure there may be some order to it but there's no chance for anything we would define as life. 

No disagreement there.  The whole universe would be different so nothing would be "what we would define as..."But I still wonder why these rules exist and not others.  Far as I know, no one knows that answer. 

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Or that a universe wouldn't stabalize on its own.
"Stabilize?" You mean that if life hadn't been possible the universe would have, like, fixed itself so that life would have been possible? Can you explain this better?
Not "fixed" itself, more like calmed down and found some kind of order.  Like if the strong nuclear force didn't exist, all those sub-atomic particles would still exist, floating around.  Eventually something would happen to make them slow down, possibly condense using other forces.  But the hot soupy mess of creation would become relatively stable somehow.  Different rules, sure, but stable rules.  And where there's rules, there's patterns.  And where there's patterns, life is possible.  Not guarnteed, but possible.

Pure speculation. This isn't science. If the strong nuclear force was too weak things would never calm down to the point where subatomic particles could suddenly bind together because the mechanism for it simply wouldn't be there. Saying "but something else might possibly happen..." well sure, I suppose, and there might be a God too, and you have to remember that we're talking about just one fundamental aspect of the universe that was fine-tuned for life, you'd have to say the same logic would apply to all the other things too, and it seems illogical to think that the universe would "right" itself no matter what was getting in the way of life. And if you believe the universe is so hell-bent on life existing, well, you are attributing a will on the part of the universe itself favoring the existence of life, and I am perfectly fine with accepting such a willful entity as God.
It absolutely is pure speculation and not science because this is philosophy, religion, and society section, not science. :P
But seriously, it's less "the universe is hell bent on making life" but rather "Life just happens when order exists".  It's not what we define as life, nor does it have to be complex, but as long as it replicates, takes in nutrients, spits out waste, etc.... it's life.