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Re: Trump
« Reply #3500 on: January 09, 2019, 03:18:34 AM »
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Re: Trump
« Reply #3501 on: January 09, 2019, 03:37:00 AM »
http://time.com/5497260/donald-trump-border-wall-fact-check/

Quote
Additionally, the wall would do nothing to stop the number one source of illegal immigration to the United States, Capps says. More than 700,000 people overstayed their visas in the United States in 2017, according to the Department of Homeland Security.

Overstaying a visa isn't a criminal offense, so lumping illegal aliens in with people overstaying visas is dumb. There's a huge difference between someone who was legally allowed entry into the country versus someone who gained entry without prior authorization.

The rest of the article is of a similar caliber, just figured I'd go with the last point on the list. The entire thing isn't really fact checking, it's just crudely disguised apologist propaganda.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #3502 on: January 09, 2019, 05:21:13 AM »
Overstaying a visa isn't a criminal offense, so lumping illegal aliens in with people overstaying visas is dumb. There's a huge difference between someone who was legally allowed entry into the country versus someone who gained entry without prior authorization.

Yes, and one of the main differences is that the people who overstay their visas - a good chunk of the population Trump stokes fear about - would be unaffected by the wall. You're acting like those people don't count and shouldn't be taken into consideration. ICE still searches for them, Trump still relies on their numbers to inflate his fearmongering, etc. They're part of the discussion, and it's disingenuous to just dismiss them as if we only ever cared about the people who illegally crossed the border to begin with.

The rest of the article is of a similar caliber

I agree. There are many reasons why the wall is a stupid idea, not just one.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Re: Trump
« Reply #3503 on: January 09, 2019, 09:02:14 AM »
You're acting like those people don't count and shouldn't be taken into consideration. ICE still searches for them, Trump still relies on their numbers to inflate his fearmongering, etc. They're part of the discussion
They may be part of the broader discussion of immigration in America, but, as you very astutely substantiated and documented, they cannot be part of the wall discussion.

It's amazing how much stronger you've made Rushy's point simply by trying to defend potboiler journalists.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Re: Trump
« Reply #3504 on: January 09, 2019, 12:02:29 PM »
Every President since Carter has declared some form of National Emergency. Obama issued quite a few.

I would say 300 US Citizens dying on a weekly basis as a result of overdose from heroin and/or fentanyl plus those being murdered by illegal immigrants plus the human trafficking constitutes an emergency.
I wouldn't.  Way more Americans murder Americans than illegals murdering Americans.
Conveniently ignoring the opening portion of my statement and the human trafficking involved...

Pathetic response but expected.

Re: Trump
« Reply #3505 on: January 09, 2019, 12:05:07 PM »
The drugs are certainly a problem but I highly doubt a wall will do anything to stop that.
Yeah, well good thing you are not assigned to Border Patrol.

Bottom line is an attempt at curtailing the flow, as the only real thing that would curtail illegal drug trafficking would be legalization.

A person who wants their yum-yum will find a way to get their yum-yum.

Re: Trump
« Reply #3506 on: January 09, 2019, 12:15:44 PM »
http://time.com/5497260/donald-trump-border-wall-fact-check/
Seriously?

The facts behind TIME Magazine's fact checking:

1) Stating "immigrants," commit less crime includes ALL IMMIGRANTS, including LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Proportionally, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS COMMIT MORE CRIME! TIME magazine printed literal BULLSHIT!

Strike one against TIME

2) Trump clearly stated Mexico would pay for the border wall.

They will pay. By keeping those useless illegals in their own country. Also via the new trade bill.

Claiming someone who worked on a fucked up deal like NAFTA as an expert is the biggest bunch of bullshit this side of the Pecos.

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Re: Trump
« Reply #3507 on: January 09, 2019, 10:23:41 PM »
You're acting like those people don't count and shouldn't be taken into consideration. ICE still searches for them, Trump still relies on their numbers to inflate his fearmongering, etc. They're part of the discussion
They may be part of the broader discussion of immigration in America, but, as you very astutely substantiated and documented, they cannot be part of the wall discussion.

Trump seems to disagree, judging by him making no distinction between the two populations in the statistics he frequently cites (the most recent example being the 266,000 arrests he mentioned last night). You and Rushy may feel as though they were always two separate issues, but the article was of course written in response to what Trump said, and pointing out that the numbers are far smaller than he claims is a perfectly valid rebuttal.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

Re: Trump
« Reply #3508 on: January 10, 2019, 05:43:04 AM »
Every President since Carter has declared some form of National Emergency. Obama issued quite a few.

I would say 300 US Citizens dying on a weekly basis as a result of overdose from heroin and/or fentanyl plus those being murdered by illegal immigrants plus the human trafficking constitutes an emergency.
I wouldn't.  Way more Americans murder Americans than illegals murdering Americans.
Conveniently ignoring the opening portion of my statement and the human trafficking involved...

Pathetic response but expected.
.... so me agreeing with you on the opening portion and the human trafficking is a pathetic response?  Because that's why I didn't comment.  Or was that not clear? 

Re: Trump
« Reply #3509 on: January 10, 2019, 05:55:02 AM »
I wouldn't.  Way more Americans murder Americans than illegals murdering Americans.

This is only correct as long as you look at the statistics as if "an American is an American". Crime rates skyrocket for poor, uneducated minorities. Guess what kind of people are pouring over the border?
How do you figure?  I mean, yes, 100% of illegals are criminals cause it's a crime to cross illegally or commit identity fraud.  But excluding that for a moment, do you have the statistics because what I'be found says lower.  However, I'm hesitant to trust it because the total number of illegals is unknown.  Makes it hard to say what percentage actually commit non-immigration related crimes.



Quote
This also isn't just a few people: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration/fy-2018

And this is only the people apprehended, with thousands more making it across the border without being stopped. A wall will help curtail this. Is it a 100% solution? No, nothing short of carpet bombing the border 24 hours a day is a 100% solution, but the wall will help, since most illegal alien entries are on foot.

How do you know how many are not apprehended? 


Yes, a wall will help, for like an hour.  Maybe two depending on how long it takes to make a hole without being discovered.  And since it requires machines to bring in the materials, any area with a wall must be easy to navigate to.  So by building a new wall section, you will make that area easy to get a tractor trailer to.  Which means more people can cross easier instead of having to make a dangerous trek across the desert or climb over rocky terrain.




The benefits of a wall in these areas aren't high enough to justify the cost.

Re: Trump
« Reply #3510 on: January 10, 2019, 11:16:39 AM »
Every President since Carter has declared some form of National Emergency. Obama issued quite a few.

I would say 300 US Citizens dying on a weekly basis as a result of overdose from heroin and/or fentanyl plus those being murdered by illegal immigrants plus the human trafficking constitutes an emergency.
I wouldn't.  Way more Americans murder Americans than illegals murdering Americans.
Conveniently ignoring the opening portion of my statement and the human trafficking involved...

Pathetic response but expected.
.... so me agreeing with you on the opening portion and the human trafficking is a pathetic response?  Because that's why I didn't comment.  Or was that not clear?
Actually very little you ever write is clear except the ambiguity.

But since you now wish to further equivocate, are you clearly stating for the record 300 deaths a week from opioid abuse and human trafficking constitutes an emergency?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 12:47:42 PM by totallackey »

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Re: Trump
« Reply #3511 on: January 10, 2019, 12:19:38 PM »
Opioid deaths are about 72,000/yr which is about 2/3rds of what you are stating. Too many, but the likelihood of a wall significantly reducing that figure are slim to none. The human trafficking problem was massively overstated in the early 2,000s and when it was finally addressed meaningfully by the Bush administration, they could only identify 1,400 victims. This is a tragedy, but not a national emergency. Find some other mechanism than crying wolf.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Trump
« Reply #3512 on: January 10, 2019, 12:35:05 PM »
Opioid deaths are about 72,000/yr which is about 2/3rds of what you are stating. Too many, but the likelihood of a wall significantly reducing that figure are slim to none. The human trafficking problem was massively overstated in the early 2,000s and when it was finally addressed meaningfully by the Bush administration, they could only identify 1,400 victims. This is a tragedy, but not a national emergency. Find some other mechanism than crying wolf.
Please provide a source for your numbers. Because what I found was this, in the fact checking done by the Washington Post, certainly no friend of Trump:
"In 2017, more than 15,000 people died of drug overdoses involving heroin in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That works out to about 300 a week." - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/09/fact-checking-president-trumps-oval-office-address-immigration/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3e26ebcee148

As far as your take on the human trafficking, that is all it is. An opinion offered with no credentials. The human trafficking has been increasing in case you have not noticed.
"57,000. That is the appalling number of individuals estimated to be involved in human trafficking in the United States, and it is more than likely a relatively conservative estimate."
The Intersection of Human Trafficking and Immigration - http://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2018/06/27/the-intersection-of-human-trafficking-and-immigration/
The cited article goes on to say:"Woman account for about 80 percent of individuals involved in sex-trafficking, with some estimates stating that a quarter of these cases involve minor children. The average age for females at the time of entry into sex-trafficking is thought to be between 17–19 years old.

Victims of both sex and labor trafficking include United States citizens, but also many foreign nationals, mostly from Mexico, Central and South America, as well as the Caribbean."

Bottom line, these people are lured by false promises, then illegally smuggled into the country by various means and then left for nothing, having been abandoned by thugs. 

Nobody crying wolf except for some hired AI bots and perhaps real life trolls not residing in the US writing that those in the US are now making mountains out of molehills...

Funny those entities were strangely absent when Barry was bringing up the topic...

« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 12:47:19 PM by totallackey »

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Re: Trump
« Reply #3513 on: January 10, 2019, 12:56:27 PM »
You go ahead and provide a source for your 300 deaths/day. My 72,000 deaths/year is from here who are citing the CDC.

The DOJ study, “Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2008-2010,” reported 2,515 cases from 2008-2010. That is not victims obviously but this State Department report cites 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere. Victims would seem a more appropriate measure of the problem over “cases” or “people involved” as neither of those deal with specifically the people being harmed.

You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Trump
« Reply #3514 on: January 10, 2019, 01:02:50 PM »
You go ahead and provide a source for your 300 deaths/day. My 72,000 deaths/year is from here who are citing the CDC.
I did provide my source. My source quoted from the CDC who printed the number in 2017.
The DOJ study, “Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2008-2010,” reported 2,515 cases from 2008-2010. That is not victims obviously but this State Department report cites 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere. Victims would seem a more appropriate measure of the problem over “cases” or “people involved” as neither of those deal with specifically the people being harmed.
Citing a nearly 10 year old article is not very helpful!

In addition, I fail to find your "10,000 cases in the Western Hemisphere," number you cite.

But I can understand if it is your only crutch when disabled. You got to lean on something.

And I quote Harvard Law.  June 27, 2018  Stephen Wood  Criminal Law, Human Rights, International, Stephen P. Wood
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:15:06 PM by totallackey »

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Re: Trump
« Reply #3515 on: January 10, 2019, 01:09:53 PM »
You go ahead and provide a source for your 300 deaths/day. My 72,000 deaths/year is from here who are citing the CDC.
I did provide my source. My source quoted from the CDC who printed the number in 2017.

Ah, you edited while I was working on my response. Fair enough, I still don’t think a wall will dent those numbers in the slightest.
Quote
The DOJ study, “Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2008-2010,” reported 2,515 cases from 2008-2010. That is not victims obviously but this State Department report cites 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere. Victims would seem a more appropriate measure of the problem over “cases” or “people involved” as neither of those deal with specifically the people being harmed.
Citing a nearly 10 year old article is not very helpful!

But I can understand if it is your only crutch when disabled. You got to lean on something.

And I quote Harvard Law.  June 27, 2018  Stephen Wood  Criminal Law, Human Rights, International, Stephen P. Wood

Yes, I saw. It doesn’t identify victims, merely “people involved”. Seems a poor way of showing how many victims there are. The State Dept has identified 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere last year.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Trump
« Reply #3516 on: January 10, 2019, 01:18:57 PM »
You go ahead and provide a source for your 300 deaths/day. My 72,000 deaths/year is from here who are citing the CDC.
I did provide my source. My source quoted from the CDC who printed the number in 2017.

Ah, you edited while I was working on my response. Fair enough, I still don’t think a wall will dent those numbers in the slightest.
Like I wrote in the "Wall," thread, it will not eliminate it.

But it will curtail it.

I work in a prison.

WALLS WORK to curtail drugs and all forms of contraband/illegal property and illegal movement.

So, you can take that from an expert.
Quote
The DOJ study, “Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2008-2010,” reported 2,515 cases from 2008-2010. That is not victims obviously but this State Department report cites 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere. Victims would seem a more appropriate measure of the problem over “cases” or “people involved” as neither of those deal with specifically the people being harmed.
Citing a nearly 10 year old article is not very helpful!

But I can understand if it is your only crutch when disabled. You got to lean on something.

And I quote Harvard Law.  June 27, 2018  Stephen Wood  Criminal Law, Human Rights, International, Stephen P. Wood
Yes, I saw. It doesn’t identify victims, merely “people involved”. Seems a poor way of showing how many victims there are. The State Dept has identified 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere last year.
And I fail to find that number in your source.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:30:39 PM by totallackey »

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Re: Trump
« Reply #3517 on: January 10, 2019, 01:25:53 PM »
You go ahead and provide a source for your 300 deaths/day. My 72,000 deaths/year is from here who are citing the CDC.
I did provide my source. My source quoted from the CDC who printed the number in 2017.

Ah, you edited while I was working on my response. Fair enough, I still don’t think a wall will dent those numbers in the slightest.
Like I wrote in the "Wall," thread, it will not eliminate it.

But it will curtail it.

I work in a prison.

WALLS WORK to curtail drugs and all forms of contraband/illegal property and illegal movement.

So, you can take that from an expert.

Janitors also work in prisons, if you want me to take you as an expert I will need more than that. Also, conflating the effectiveness of a wall for a prison versus a nation seems to be a terrible idea.

Quote
The DOJ study, “Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2008-2010,” reported 2,515 cases from 2008-2010. That is not victims obviously but this State Department report cites 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere. Victims would seem a more appropriate measure of the problem over “cases” or “people involved” as neither of those deal with specifically the people being harmed.
Citing a nearly 10 year old article is not very helpful!

But I can understand if it is your only crutch when disabled. You got to lean on something.

And I quote Harvard Law.  June 27, 2018  Stephen Wood  Criminal Law, Human Rights, International, Stephen P. Wood

Yes, I saw. It doesn’t identify victims, merely “people involved”. Seems a poor way of showing how many victims there are. The State Dept has identified 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere last year.
[/quote]
And I fail to find that number in your source.
[/quote][/quote]

P. 68, meant to include that before. There is a chart, with a column titled “victims”.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Trump
« Reply #3518 on: January 10, 2019, 01:43:19 PM »
You go ahead and provide a source for your 300 deaths/day. My 72,000 deaths/year is from here who are citing the CDC.
I did provide my source. My source quoted from the CDC who printed the number in 2017.

Ah, you edited while I was working on my response. Fair enough, I still don’t think a wall will dent those numbers in the slightest.
Like I wrote in the "Wall," thread, it will not eliminate it.

But it will curtail it.

I work in a prison.

WALLS WORK to curtail drugs and all forms of contraband/illegal property and illegal movement.

So, you can take that from an expert.

Janitors also work in prisons, if you want me to take you as an expert I will need more than that.
I fail to see how what I do in a prison makes a difference, but I have performed a wide range of duties, from correctional officer up to and including assistant warden. 
Also, conflating the effectiveness of a wall for a prison versus a nation seems to be a terrible idea.
Aside from just stating, "...seems to be a terrible idea." how about clearly stating HOW or even WHY it is a terrible idea.

I am not denying that walls work TWO WAYS.

I am also not unaware the corporations who benefit highly from freedom of movement/relocation seem to be immune from scrutiny when they do so.

Generally, I am for LEAST RESTRICTIVE ENVIRONMENT POSSIBLE for every human; HOWEVER...

With that amount of freedom comes responsibility.

Do we act to curtail the bad actors or not?
Quote
The DOJ study, “Characteristics of Suspected Human Trafficking Incidents, 2008-2010,” reported 2,515 cases from 2008-2010. That is not victims obviously but this State Department report cites 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere. Victims would seem a more appropriate measure of the problem over “cases” or “people involved” as neither of those deal with specifically the people being harmed.
Citing a nearly 10 year old article is not very helpful!

But I can understand if it is your only crutch when disabled. You got to lean on something.

And I quote Harvard Law.  June 27, 2018  Stephen Wood  Criminal Law, Human Rights, International, Stephen P. Wood

Yes, I saw. It doesn’t identify victims, merely “people involved”. Seems a poor way of showing how many victims there are. The State Dept has identified 10,000 victims in the entire Western Hemisphere last year.
[/quote]
And I fail to find that number in your source.
[/quote][/quote]
P. 68, meant to include that before. There is a chart, with a column titled “victims”.
Thank you, I will look at that now.

I see. Here is the footnote to that data, emphasis mine:

"The above statistics are estimates derived from data provided by foreign governments and other sources and reviewed by the Department of State. Aggregate data fluctuates from one year to the next due to the hidden nature of trafficking crimes, dynamic global events, shifts in government efforts, and a lack of uniformity in national reporting structures. The numbers in parentheses are those of labor trafficking prosecutions, convictions, and victims identified."

I think it is evident many of those governments have faulty reporting, in many cases due to outright complicity in the practice of human trafficking and abuse itself (including former officials in US Government, about to be held responsible and pay the price!)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:44:51 PM by totallackey »

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Re: Trump
« Reply #3519 on: January 10, 2019, 02:12:57 PM »
I fail to see how what I do in a prison makes a difference,
lol really? So if a janitor started telling you how to how to fix the prison, you would consider them an expert?  Never has the term "expert" meant so little.

Quote
but I have performed a wide range of duties, from correctional officer up to and including assistant warden. 

Let's assume you are telling the truth: how many escapes does a wall prevent versus an unwalled prison?

Quote
Also, conflating the effectiveness of a wall for a prison versus a nation seems to be a terrible idea.
Aside from just stating, "...seems to be a terrible idea." how about clearly stating HOW or even WHY it is a terrible idea.

I thought that would be obvious, but ok.  The US border is not just land, but also water and air, so unlike a prison, there is a very real possibility of sailing or flying right past your wall.  The US border is about 2,000 miles making patrolling the border, because it will still need patrolling, and repairing the wall, significantly larger of a logistical issue than a prison wall.  Some of their checkpoints see considerably more traffic in a day than some prisons would likely see in a year meaning there is a need for more thorough, varied and stringent policies and processes for accessing those points.

Quote
I am not denying that walls work TWO WAYS.

Great, I never said you did.  Now, what are you talking about?

Quote
I am also not unaware the corporations who benefit highly from freedom of movement/relocation seem to be immune from scrutiny when they do so.

Generally, I am for LEAST RESTRICTIVE ENVIRONMENT POSSIBLE for every human; HOWEVER...

With that amount of freedom comes responsibility.

Do we act to curtail the bad actors or not?

This is a false dilemma implying a wall is the only solution and there can be no other.  No thanks. 
Quote

Thank you, I will look at that now.

I see. Here is the footnote to that data, emphasis mine:

"The above statistics are estimates derived from data provided by foreign governments and other sources and reviewed by the Department of State. Aggregate data fluctuates from one year to the next due to the hidden nature of trafficking crimes, dynamic global events, shifts in government efforts, and a lack of uniformity in national reporting structures. The numbers in parentheses are those of labor trafficking prosecutions, convictions, and victims identified."

I think it is evident many of those governments have faulty reporting, in many cases due to outright complicity in the practice of human trafficking and abuse itself (including former officials in US Government, about to be held responsible and pay the price!)

I don't agree it is evident.  Regardless, that could call in to question the numbers for the entire hemisphere, maybe, but it wouldn't affect the USA's self-reporting in the slightest.  Let's be generous and say that the 75% of the victims from that report are in the US; that means there are only 7,500 victims which is a whole order of magnitude lower than what you were citing.  If my statistics are more accurately representing the problem, then this does not seem to be a national emergency.  A tragedy, yes, but not a national emergency.  The four previous national emergencies were a 1933 banking crisis, which affected a majority of  Americans, the Korean War, a 1970 postal strike, affecting a majority of americans and a 1971 inflation crisis, affect a majority of americans.  Unless it can be shown that the scale is the same, invoking emergency powers to fulfill a campaign promise seems to be frivolous at best.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.