Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2016, 11:59:08 AM »
It is used every day by millions.  Also see websites that give details for setting up a dish, none shown to be incorrect.

Millions of people drive cars, yet cannot really explain how they work. What does "millions" have to do with it?

It has not been demonstrated that the signals can only come from satellites in orbit around a globe earth. You will have to present something other than fallacies to further your argument.
It is a proven technology.  The proof is the angle of dishes, you should check some to then calculate the transmitter locations.  And discuss with those in the satellite and broadcast industry.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2016, 12:02:53 PM »
Please present some evidence for these dish angles. We do not have the budget to travel the world and prove this or that for everyone that comes along.

*

Offline rabinoz

  • *
  • Posts: 1436
  • Just look South at the Stars
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2016, 12:10:10 PM »
Quote
You bandwidth requirements are for one channel. Modern satellites have around 32 transponders and
Quote
A satellite used for TV or fixed telecommunications will have multiple "transponders", these are a chain of equipment that takes RF bandwidth in, transposes/shifts its frequency, amplifies it and sends it back to Earth. Because there is no processing the design can be simpler and the system doesn't need upgrading because all the smart stuff happens on the ground. Each transponder can handle 50 to 100MHz of bandwidth.
That's at least 1.6 GB/s.

Now you're just adding up the bandwidth of multiple channel transmissions.
Firstly, all that bandwidth is from one satellite, and in any case the bandwidth of one transponder is more than any troposcatter system we have seen.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote
Then there is point that you refuse to address: One DB Satellite can cover an area larger than Australia, the range of troposcatter seems to be a few hundred kilometres at most.

Firstly, you are assuming that what they say about space and the height of the ionosphere is the same in FET. We are relying on NASA for that.
No we are not relying on NASA for any of this, the range of troposcatter has been determined by experiment, on the only earth we have.
You have quoted many of these to justify your own claims,
and
not on any assumed height of the ionosphere. Here we are discussing tropospheric scattering and not ionospheric reflections. The ionosphere is a very poor reflector of the frequency range use for satellite TV. This is a good thing as geostationary satellites are well above the ionosphere. 

And, no we do not rely on NASA even for that, but on much earlier work, an important part being by Sir Edward Victor Appleton, see
Quote
Sir Edward Victor Appleton
Academic advisors: J. J. Thomson, Ernest Rutherford
Known for Ionospheric Physics Appleton layer, Demonstrating existence of Kennelly–Heaviside layer
Notable awards:
Nobel Prize in Physics (1947), Fellow of the Royal Society (1927), Hughes Medal (1933), Faraday Medal (1946), Chree Medal (1947), Royal Medal (1950), Albert Medal (1950), IEEE Medal of Honor (1962)
Sir Edward Victor Appleton GBE KCB FRS[3] (6 September 1892 – 21 April 1965) was an English physicist. Nobel Prize winner and pioneer in radio physics, Sir Edward Appleton, studied and was also employed as a Lab Technician at Bradford Technical College from 1909 to 1911.
He won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1947 for his seminal work proving the existence of the ionosphere during experiments carried out in 1924.
Not only does 1924 predate NASA by a good margin, but I had an uncle Norman Victor Appleton and a grandfather Alfred Edward Appleton (both long deceased). So, relative or not (no I'm not sure), I do remember a bit about Sir Edward Victor Appleton! [1].

But, of course your diversion about the ionosphere is quite irrelevant anyway.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Secondly, your argument for limited distance relies on the assumption that the earth is a globe. It is not.
Nothe at all, I repeat, the range of troposcatter has been determined by experiment, on the only earth we have.

[1]  ;) What's the point of having a few connections if I can't drop names occasionally.  ;)

Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2016, 12:22:23 PM »
Please present some evidence for these dish angles. We do not have the budget to travel the world and prove this or that for everyone that comes along.
You should do some research for yourself, it is basic stuff.  Now you are saying it may be true that the angles prove the locations of satellites.  Do some measurements around you and ask others to help.  I look forward to seeing the results.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 03:14:57 PM by inquisitive »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2016, 01:54:40 PM »
No we are not relying on NASA for any of this, the range of troposcatter has been determined by experiment, on the only earth we have.

What experiment?

Quote
And, no we do not rely on NASA even for that, but on much earlier work, an important part being by Sir Edward Victor Appleton, see
Quote
Sir Edward Victor Appleton
Academic advisors: J. J. Thomson, Ernest Rutherford
Known for Ionospheric Physics Appleton layer, Demonstrating existence of Kennelly–Heaviside layer
Notable awards:
Nobel Prize in Physics (1947), Fellow of the Royal Society (1927), Hughes Medal (1933), Faraday Medal (1946), Chree Medal (1947), Royal Medal (1950), Albert Medal (1950), IEEE Medal of Honor (1962)
Sir Edward Victor Appleton GBE KCB FRS[3] (6 September 1892 – 21 April 1965) was an English physicist. Nobel Prize winner and pioneer in radio physics, Sir Edward Appleton, studied and was also employed as a Lab Technician at Bradford Technical College from 1909 to 1911.
He won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1947 for his seminal work proving the existence of the ionosphere during experiments carried out in 1924.
Not only does 1924 predate NASA by a good margin, but I had an uncle Norman Victor Appleton and a grandfather Alfred Edward Appleton (both long deceased). So, relative or not (no I'm not sure), I do remember a bit about Sir Edward Victor Appleton! [1].

But, of course your diversion about the ionosphere is quite irrelevant anyway.

What you quoted just says that he showed that it exists using 1924 experiments. Where does he map its height and extent?

*

Offline Woody

  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2016, 05:42:55 PM »
Tom for dish angles you can simply find it on line.  If you think that is incorrect information presented to mislead people call someone like Dish Network's customer service and ask what angle and direction the dish needs to be pointed. You can have several people calling saying they are from different locations across North America.  They certainly can not lie to their customers or they would get a lot of complaints about people not being able to watch their favorite shows.

A problem arises for you to determine the position using this method.  The distances involved are greater than 2-12 miles. If I understand you correctly math fails at distances beyond that.


*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2016, 05:50:16 PM »
If you or the other guy think it will provide support for your round world model, have at it. We can look at the numbers and see if it makes sense. I'm not your errand boy to prove your model for you.

*

Offline Woody

  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2016, 06:07:44 PM »
If you or the other guy think it will provide support for your round world model, have at it. We can look at the numbers and see if it makes sense. I'm not your errand boy to prove your model for you.

You not only need to look at what proves you right, but what proves you wrong.  If you do not you can never advance your model or refine it. 

The reason you or another FE should do it is it will allow you to refine a FE model.  Something like the upper limit man and machine can go.

Myself and other RE's accept the world is round.  We believe that Kepler's and Newton's Laws are right so have no need or desire to do this.  I actually thought about doing it and may some day. I also think about how the results will be just dismissed by FE's. 

If I do do it it will not be for someone like you, but a young person who may have wondered by here, has little to no understanding of the subject matters. It will be in the hope that they to do not end up going down the same path as anyone truly believing the Earth is flat.

Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2016, 06:20:39 PM »
If you or the other guy think it will provide support for your round world model, have at it. We can look at the numbers and see if it makes sense. I'm not your errand boy to prove your model for you.
So you have no interest in showing that the angle of satellite dishes does not prove a round earth with a geosynchronous satellite in orbit?

You can get some numbers to verify at http://www.dishpointer.com/

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2016, 07:54:30 PM »
If you or the other guy think it will provide support for your round world model, have at it. We can look at the numbers and see if it makes sense. I'm not your errand boy to prove your model for you.

You not only need to look at what proves you right, but what proves you wrong.  If you do not you can never advance your model or refine it. 

The reason you or another FE should do it is it will allow you to refine a FE model.  Something like the upper limit man and machine can go.

Myself and other RE's accept the world is round.  We believe that Kepler's and Newton's Laws are right so have no need or desire to do this.  I actually thought about doing it and may some day. I also think about how the results will be just dismissed by FE's. 

If I do do it it will not be for someone like you, but a young person who may have wondered by here, has little to no understanding of the subject matters. It will be in the hope that they to do not end up going down the same path as anyone truly believing the Earth is flat.

I don't go around telling you that I have an idea for an experiment, but I don't want to bother and that you should do it. It's not even a good one. I have better things to do than gather some information which can be interpreted in any number of ways with multiple technologies, nothing being proven in the end either way.

Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2016, 08:36:51 PM »
If you or the other guy think it will provide support for your round world model, have at it. We can look at the numbers and see if it makes sense. I'm not your errand boy to prove your model for you.

You not only need to look at what proves you right, but what proves you wrong.  If you do not you can never advance your model or refine it. 

The reason you or another FE should do it is it will allow you to refine a FE model.  Something like the upper limit man and machine can go.

Myself and other RE's accept the world is round.  We believe that Kepler's and Newton's Laws are right so have no need or desire to do this.  I actually thought about doing it and may some day. I also think about how the results will be just dismissed by FE's. 

If I do do it it will not be for someone like you, but a young person who may have wondered by here, has little to no understanding of the subject matters. It will be in the hope that they to do not end up going down the same path as anyone truly believing the Earth is flat.

I don't go around telling you that I have an idea for an experiment, but I don't want to bother and that you should do it. It's not even a good one. I have better things to do than gather some information which can be interpreted in any number of ways with multiple technologies, nothing being proven in the end either way.
If you were really interested in the shape of the earth measuring dish angles and the path of the sun would be something to easily carry out.  A reluctance to do this must show you are not serious in your belief.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2016, 10:13:14 PM »
If you were really interested in the shape of the earth measuring dish angles and the path of the sun would be something to easily carry out.  A reluctance to do this must show you are not serious in your belief.

Stop being lazy and follow through with the experiment you proposed. I'm not going to contribute to this discussion for you.

*

Offline Woody

  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2016, 11:00:06 PM »
If you were really interested in the shape of the earth measuring dish angles and the path of the sun would be something to easily carry out.  A reluctance to do this must show you are not serious in your belief.

Stop being lazy and follow through with the experiment you proposed. I'm not going to contribute to this discussion for you.

I believe the Earth is round and satellites exist. 

If you do not see the value of figuring out if all those dishes spread across a continent are pointing at the same thing I can only think to tell you this:

1.  You will be able to tell if they are pointing at the same thing

2. You can get an estimate of the altitude of the signal source.

3. If will be evidence for or against the existence of satellites.

4. It will help you determine the feasibility of using troposcatter.  If it is being used it will need to be transmitting signals at multiple locations in a pattern that would emulate what is expected for a geosynchronous satellite. That is if those dishes are all pointing towards the same thing.

I still wonder why no FE does this. 

You can also take advantage of the doppler effect in your quest for the truth.  You will be able to determine the trajectory of the thing sending the signal.

You can get some open source programs for a lot of GPS devices.  You will be able to review the calculations being used and install it on your device to see if it works properly.  Since the calculations involve knowing the satellites' locations. If the wrong position is transmitted the calculations will give you the wrong fix.

You can observe the ISS over a period of time.  You can estimate it's speed and altitude using a couple of different methods.  See if it matches with what Kepler's laws say it should be.

You dismissed these ideas for observations before because you claimed none would determine the shape of the Earth.  The topic now is about the existence of satellites.  The above are some other things can be done to gather evidence about their existence and where they are.

You can make claims all you want, until you can offer evidence all you have is just saying something is true.

I also do not have to do the experiments, because I have observed the ISS through binoculars and telescope.  I have an understanding of orbital mechanics and my observations match what I know about the subject.

Others have tracked satellites using the Doppler effect to determine their orbits.  I have seen the results and it done while I lived in Florida.  I have no reason to question the results or the conclusions.

Then there is the multitude of pictures taken by satellites and used daily by professionals in their careers across the globe.

The existence of these things orbiting the Earth is a huge hole in the FE hypothesis.  It should really be towards the top of the list of things FE's need to look into.

Are they really up there?

If so, how high? What causes the different orbits? 

If not, what are those stationary lights in the night sky that starting appearing around the 1970's?

What is causing the Irdium flares and why are they so predictable? How about the predictability of the other lights moving through the night sky?


*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6551
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2016, 12:16:43 AM »
I don't think it's a good experiment, so I'm not inclined to do it.

Choosing random spots around the satellite assumes that they have customers in those locations, when a French satellite probably just has French customers who watch French TV. The only valid angles would be in France, unless it can be demonstrated that the satellite is detectable in other countries too.

Even if it was determined that some satellite dishes are pointing high it the sky, it could just be argued that the ionosphere stretches high in the sky.

It could also be argued that some satellites are actually high altitude pseudolite technologies.

So, really, it's a complete waste of time for me. It doesn't matter where the dish is pointing. Something can be argued to justify it. It's really up to you to come up with something incontrovertible, not for me to argue against myself.


*

Offline Rounder

  • *
  • Posts: 779
  • What in the Sam Hill are you people talking about?
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2016, 05:53:47 AM »
I don't go around telling you that I have an idea for an experiment, but I don't want to bother and that you should do it. It's not even a good one. I have better things to do than gather some information which can be interpreted in any number of ways with multiple technologies, nothing being proven in the end either way.
Perhaps, but if someone on the RE side comes up with the idea, and performs it, and the results favor RE?  You are likely to claim either mistake or mischief on the RE side.  This is why we suggest that an FE such as yourself perform it, so we cannot create false data for you.
Proud member of İntikam's "Ignore List"
Ok. You proven you are unworthy to unignored. You proven it was a bad idea to unignore you. and it was for me a disgusting experience...Now you are going to place where you deserved and accustomed.
Quote from: SexWarrior
You accuse {FE} people of malice where incompetence suffice

Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2016, 08:00:13 AM »
I don't think it's a good experiment, so I'm not inclined to do it.

Choosing random spots around the satellite assumes that they have customers in those locations, when a French satellite probably just has French customers who watch French TV. The only valid angles would be in France, unless it can be demonstrated that the satellite is detectable in other countries too.

Even if it was determined that some satellite dishes are pointing high it the sky, it could just be argued that the ionosphere stretches high in the sky.

It could also be argued that some satellites are actually high altitude pseudolite technologies.

So, really, it's a complete waste of time for me. It doesn't matter where the dish is pointing. Something can be argued to justify it. It's really up to you to come up with something incontrovertible, not for me to argue against myself.
Choose a satellite with a large footprint like all of the US.

It 'can't be argued' that satellites do not exist.  The proof is there with evidence and documentation from users and industry.  After many years you have not come up with one bit of proof a satellite dish for home reception uses anything other than a satellite.

If you believe some satellites are another technology please provide a link to the company operating them.

*

Offline rabinoz

  • *
  • Posts: 1436
  • Just look South at the Stars
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2016, 08:25:22 AM »
I don't think it's a good experiment, so I'm not inclined to do it.

Choosing random spots around the satellite assumes that they have customers in those locations, when a French satellite probably just has French customers who watch French TV. The only valid angles would be in France, unless it can be demonstrated that the satellite is detectable in other countries too.

Even if it was determined that some satellite dishes are pointing high it the sky, it could just be argued that the ionosphere stretches high in the sky.

It could also be argued that some satellites are actually high altitude pseudolite technologies.

So, really, it's a complete waste of time for me. It doesn't matter where the dish is pointing. Something can be argued to justify it. It's really up to you to come up with something incontrovertible, not for me to argue against myself.

Excuse me! You were vehemently arguing that satellite TV used "tropscatter", now you use the excuse "it could just be argued that the ionosphere stretches high in the sky."

You do know that the troposphere and the ionosphere are quite different things?
Quote from: Wikipedia
Troposphere
The troposphere is the lowest portion of Earth's atmosphere, and is also where all weather takes place. It contains approximately 75% of the atmosphere's mass and 99% of its water vapor and aerosols. The average depths of the troposphere are 20 km (12 mi) in the tropics, 17 km (11 mi) in the mid latitudes, and 7 km (4.3 mi) in the polar regions in winter.
and
Quote from: Wikipedia
Ionosphere
The ionosphere is a region of Earth's upper atmosphere, from about 60 km (37 mi) to 1,000 km (620 mi) altitude, and includes the thermosphere and parts of the mesosphere and exosphere. It is ionized by solar radiation, plays an important part in atmospheric electricity and forms the inner edge of the magnetosphere. It has practical importance because, among other functions, it influences radio propagation to distant places on the Earth.

Before you try to claim "ionospheric scatter" (whatever that is) or "ionospheric reflection", the ionosphere is almost transparent to the bands used for satellite TV.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Other considerations
VHF signals with frequencies above about 30 MHz usually penetrate the ionosphere and are not returned to the Earth's surface. E-skip is a notable exception, where VHF signals including FM broadcast and VHF TV signals are frequently reflected to the Earth during late Spring and early Summer. E-skip rarely affects UHF frequencies, except for very rare occurrences below 500 MHz.

Also ionospheric height measurements predate NASA by some 30 years! EARLY HISTORY OF IONOSPHERIC DISCOVERY.

Tom, please just stop all this guessing!

Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2016, 05:27:21 PM »
- Obligatory 9/11 conspiracy tie-in at the end.
Did the video mention chemtrails? 
watch?v=xhcVJcINzn8

geckothegeek

Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2016, 03:03:46 AM »
Please present some evidence for these dish angles. We do not have the budget to travel the world and prove this or that for everyone that comes along.

Please.......Just do some research on antenna theory and practice if you really know as little as you seem to do . Yes ! "Stop guessing" !
I have worked in fields regardimg radio, radar , microwave repeater systems and computers. If I just "guessed"  I would have been in a world of hurt.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 03:13:54 AM by geckothegeek »

*

Offline rabinoz

  • *
  • Posts: 1436
  • Just look South at the Stars
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2016, 10:59:48 PM »
Please present some evidence for these dish angles. We do not have the budget to travel the world and prove this or that for everyone that comes along.

I know this is from days back, but the facts are:
1) Dish angles are set up by installers[1] as specified in the many online installation guides eg Satellite Finder / Dish Alignment Calculator with Google Maps.

2) You can use this data to find the azimuth and elevation angles at any location in a satellite's service area.

3) You find  (bit of 3D trig here, unless you keep all points on the same longitude) where these dishes point on a Globe or on whichever Flat Earth model is de rigueur.

Then check which case points to a single location above the earth.

Easy, no not really,  but it needs no resources, just better maths than mine, though given time I guess I could manage.

So stop the excuses and find one more proof of your model (or not as the case may be).

[1]  Oops, sorry, I forgot, all the hundreds of thousands of satellite TV installers  (+ all motorhome owners, caravanners and campers) are all "in" on the comspiracy! ::)