*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« on: September 12, 2016, 07:41:33 AM »
I was watching an interesting video which provides some elements of discussion.

- In Lone Survivor, a true story, a major plot point is that the team's Satellite Phone got zero signal on the top of a mountain in Afganistan.

- There is an interesting idea posed that Satellite TV could be using Troposcatter technology, and that other satellite technologies may be land-based Troposcatter broadcasting devices.

- Brought up a point that Thork once made that many satellite dishes are often seen pointed in the general direction of the horizon, rarely "up".

- Obligatory 9/11 conspiracy tie-in at the end.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 08:25:26 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 07:47:39 AM »
From tpub.com on Tropospheric Scatter:

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book10/40k.htm

Quote
TROPOSPHERIC PROPAGATION

As the lowest region of the Earth's atmosphere, the troposphere extends from the Earth's surface to a height of slightly over 7 miles. Virtually all weather phenomena occur in this region. Generally, the troposphere is characterized by a steady decrease in both temperature and pressure as height is increased. However, the many changes in weather phenomena cause variations in humidity and an uneven heating of the Earth's surface. As a result, the air in the troposphere is in constant motion. This motion causes small turbulences, or eddies, to be formed, as shown by the bouncing of aircraft entering turbulent areas of the atmosphere. These turbulences are most intense near the Earth's surface and gradually diminish with height. They have a refractive quality that permits the refracting or scattering of radio waves with short wavelengths. This scattering provides enhanced communications at higher frequencies.

Recall that in the relationship between frequency and wavelength, wavelength decreases as frequency increases and vice versa. Radio waves of frequencies below 30 megahertz normally have wavelengths longer than the size of weather turbulences. These radio waves are, therefore, affected very little by the turbulences. On the other hand, as the frequency increases into the vhf range and above, the wavelengths decrease in size, to the point that they become subject to tropospheric scattering. The usable frequency range for tropospheric scattering is from about 100 megahertz to 10 gigahertz.

An image:

« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 07:55:31 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 08:21:05 AM »
Thork's post at https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=51208.msg1254456#msg1254456

I have a satellite dish on my house. It points South East, not up. Proof in itself the 'satellite' must be in Slough and not in space.

Your satellite dish points parallel to the surface of the earth?  ???
Yep. It is mounted like this one


or this one


or any of the ones in this street.


You'll be telling me they are all pointing up at satellites in the sky, and not parallel at ground based stations next. ::)

*

Offline rabinoz

  • *
  • Posts: 1436
  • Just look South at the Stars
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 09:03:12 AM »
Thork's post at https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=51208.msg1254456#msg1254456

I have a satellite dish on my house. It points South East, not up. Proof in itself the 'satellite' must be in Slough and not in space.

Your satellite dish points parallel to the surface of the earth?  ???
Yep. It is mounted like this one


or this one


or any of the ones in this street.


You'll be telling me they are all pointing up at satellites in the sky, and not parallel at ground based stations next. ::)

You ask two simple questions "You'll be telling me they are all pointing up at satellites in the sky, and not parallel at ground based stations."

and I'll give you two direct answers:
                  Yes, they definitely are "pointing up at satellites in the sky"
and
                  No, they are definitely are not pointing "parallel at ground based stations".

I do wish you would learn a bit about the topic before posting this sort of thing. It would save us all so much time!

Have a look at

Quote from: Wikipedia
Offset dish antenna
Main types of parabolic antennas
An off-axis or offset dish antenna is a type of parabolic antenna. It is so called because the antenna feed is offset to the side of the reflector, in contrast to the common front-fed parabolic antenna where the feed is in front of the dish, on its axis. As in a front-fed parabolic dish, the feed is located at the focal point of the reflector, but the reflector is an asymmetric segment of a paraboloid, so the focus is located to the side.
The purpose of this design is to move the feed antenna and its supports out of the path of the incoming radio waves. In an ordinary front-fed dish antenna, the feed structure and its supports are located in the path of the incoming beam of radio waves, partially obstructing them, casting a "shadow" on the dish, reducing the radio power received. In technical terms this reduces the aperture efficiency of the antenna, reducing its gain. In the offset design, the feed is positioned outside the area of the beam, usually below it on a boom sticking out from the bottom edge of the dish. The beam axis of the antenna, the axis of the incoming or outgoing radio waves, is skewed at an angle to the plane of the dish mouth.
The design is most widely used for small parabolic antennas or "mini-dishes", such as common Ku band home satellite television dishes, where the feed structure is large enough in relation to the dish to block a significant proportion of the signal. Another application is on satellites, particularly the direct broadcast satellites which use parabolic dishes to beam television signals to homes on Earth. Because of the limited transmitter power provided by their solar cells, satellite antennas must function as efficiently as possible. The offset design is also widely used in radar antennas. These must collect as much signal as possible in order to detect faint return signals from faraway targets.
Offset dish antennas are more difficult to design than front-fed antennas because the dish is an asymmetric segment of a paraboloid with different curvatures in the two axes. Before the 1970s offset designs were mostly limited to radar antennas, which required asymmetric reflectors anyway to create shaped beams. The advent in the 1970s of computer design tools which could easily calculate the radiation pattern of offset dishes has removed this limitation, and efficient offset designs are being used more and more widely in recent years.
   

Main types of parabolic antennas
From: Offset dish antenna.

Yes, those all seem to be "Offset dish antennae" like this one, with the feed horn well below the centre line of the dish:

Home satellite television dish

Tropospheric scatter is used, but is not suitable for TV signal distribution because there is no way it can reliably cover a whole continent!

*

Offline Rounder

  • *
  • Posts: 779
  • What in the Sam Hill are you people talking about?
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 03:30:31 PM »
- In Lone Survivor, a true story, a major plot point is that the team's Satellite Phone got zero signal on the top of a mountain in Afganistan.
While I have neither watched the movie nor read the book Lone Survivor, I do have Google.  A quick search of the internet does not back up your assertion of "zero signal" at the top of a mountain.  It actually contradicts you exactly: the ONLY place he had signal was the very exposed position on top of the mountain, where he successfully made the call (and received his fatal wounds in the process)
Proud member of İntikam's "Ignore List"
Ok. You proven you are unworthy to unignored. You proven it was a bad idea to unignore you. and it was for me a disgusting experience...Now you are going to place where you deserved and accustomed.
Quote from: SexWarrior
You accuse {FE} people of malice where incompetence suffice

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 03:44:51 PM »
- In Lone Survivor, a true story, a major plot point is that the team's Satellite Phone got zero signal on the top of a mountain in Afganistan.
While I have neither watched the movie nor read the book Lone Survivor, I do have Google.  A quick search of the internet does not back up your assertion of "zero signal" at the top of a mountain.  It actually contradicts you exactly: the ONLY place he had signal was the very exposed position on top of the mountain, where he successfully made the call (and received his fatal wounds in the process)

Actually, if one searches for Satellite Phone on that page it says that he had to move to an "exposed position" to get a signal. It says nothing about it being on a mountain. From what I've read about it, I don't think the entire story takes place on the top of a mountain.

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 5681
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 04:21:52 PM »
- In Lone Survivor, a true story, a major plot point is that the team's Satellite Phone got zero signal on the top of a mountain in Afganistan.
While I have neither watched the movie nor read the book Lone Survivor, I do have Google.  A quick search of the internet does not back up your assertion of "zero signal" at the top of a mountain.  It actually contradicts you exactly: the ONLY place he had signal was the very exposed position on top of the mountain, where he successfully made the call (and received his fatal wounds in the process)

Actually, if one searches for Satellite Phone on that page it says that he had to move to an "exposed position" to get a signal. It says nothing about it being on a mountain. From what I've read about it, I don't think the entire story takes place on the top of a mountain.

Where are you seeing that he got no satellite phone reception on a mountaintop?  Are you seriously basing it on a youtubers opinion on a Hollywood interpretation of a true story?  I hope you are, because that would be hilarious.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2016, 12:22:12 AM »
Where are you seeing that he got no satellite phone reception on a mountaintop?  Are you seriously basing it on a youtubers opinion on a Hollywood interpretation of a true story?  I hope you are, because that would be hilarious.

I've read about the Lone Survivor story and the youtuber's point appears to be correct as far as I can tell. The events take place in multiple locations. I haven't picked up the book, but you are welcome to read the book and settle the matter.

*

Offline Rounder

  • *
  • Posts: 779
  • What in the Sam Hill are you people talking about?
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 03:12:19 AM »
Actually, if one searches for Satellite Phone on that page it says that he had to move to an "exposed position" to get a signal.
Fine, "exposed position" then.  Why should that be unexpected?  Satellite communication requires line of sight, which you don't have while in thick cover.

It says nothing about it being on a mountain. From what I've read about it, I don't think the entire story takes place on the top of a mountain.
All the more reason to wonder why YOU made an unsupported claim about getting "zero signal on the top of a mountain in Afghanistan."


you are welcome to read the book and settle the matter.
Sure, because you have a long history of acknowledging when we point out your mistakes and "settle the matter"
Proud member of İntikam's "Ignore List"
Ok. You proven you are unworthy to unignored. You proven it was a bad idea to unignore you. and it was for me a disgusting experience...Now you are going to place where you deserved and accustomed.
Quote from: SexWarrior
You accuse {FE} people of malice where incompetence suffice

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 5681
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 03:30:10 AM »
Where are you seeing that he got no satellite phone reception on a mountaintop?  Are you seriously basing it on a youtubers opinion on a Hollywood interpretation of a true story?  I hope you are, because that would be hilarious.

I've read about the Lone Survivor story and the youtuber's point appears to be correct as far as I can tell. The events take place in multiple locations. I haven't picked up the book, but you are welcome to read the book and settle the matter.

No, I am pretty sure you are wrong.  If you were right, then you would show us.  This is just another Tom-fail.  We will add it to the pile.  The large, steaming pile.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

*

Offline rabinoz

  • *
  • Posts: 1436
  • Just look South at the Stars
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 07:03:03 AM »
Where are you seeing that he got no satellite phone reception on a mountaintop?  Are you seriously basing it on a youtubers opinion on a Hollywood interpretation of a true story?  I hope you are, because that would be hilarious.

I've read about the Lone Survivor story and the youtuber's point appears to be correct as far as I can tell. The events take place in multiple locations. I haven't picked up the book, but you are welcome to read the book and settle the matter.

No, I am pretty sure you are wrong.  If you were right, then you would show us.  This is just another Tom-fail.  We will add it to the pile.  The large, steaming pile.
Do the satellite dishes in his Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology? go on the heap?

I attempted to answer it in Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?

*

Offline Woody

  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2016, 01:54:27 AM »
Here you go Tom:



Every civilization has observed and recorded what they saw in the night sky to some extent.  Those stationary stars/lights were never recorded by any civilization or person in history.  Well at least not until we are told those satellites were launched. 

If you remember I also gave you some other methods to determine where radio signals are coming from. If I recall you determined that it was not worth doing because it would not be evidence if the Earth is flat or not.  Well it seems in this case it would be worth doing since you are questioning the existence of satellites and where the signals are coming from.

If you like I will list those methods again so you can gather evidence.

You really should research wave propagation.  When you do you will learn why different antennas and frequencies are used for different applications.  Like certain frequencies not bouncing off any layer of the atmosphere and punching through it.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 01:56:28 AM by Woody »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2016, 03:20:43 AM »
Have a look at

Quote from: Wikipedia
Offset dish antenna
Main types of parabolic antennas
An off-axis or offset dish antenna is a type of parabolic antenna. It is so called because the antenna feed is offset to the side of the reflector, in contrast to the common front-fed parabolic antenna where the feed is in front of the dish, on its axis. As in a front-fed parabolic dish, the feed is located at the focal point of the reflector, but the reflector is an asymmetric segment of a paraboloid, so the focus is located to the side.
The purpose of this design is to move the feed antenna and its supports out of the path of the incoming radio waves. In an ordinary front-fed dish antenna, the feed structure and its supports are located in the path of the incoming beam of radio waves, partially obstructing them, casting a "shadow" on the dish, reducing the radio power received. In technical terms this reduces the aperture efficiency of the antenna, reducing its gain. In the offset design, the feed is positioned outside the area of the beam, usually below it on a boom sticking out from the bottom edge of the dish. The beam axis of the antenna, the axis of the incoming or outgoing radio waves, is skewed at an angle to the plane of the dish mouth.
The design is most widely used for small parabolic antennas or "mini-dishes", such as common Ku band home satellite television dishes, where the feed structure is large enough in relation to the dish to block a significant proportion of the signal. Another application is on satellites, particularly the direct broadcast satellites which use parabolic dishes to beam television signals to homes on Earth. Because of the limited transmitter power provided by their solar cells, satellite antennas must function as efficiently as possible. The offset design is also widely used in radar antennas. These must collect as much signal as possible in order to detect faint return signals from faraway targets.
Offset dish antennas are more difficult to design than front-fed antennas because the dish is an asymmetric segment of a paraboloid with different curvatures in the two axes. Before the 1970s offset designs were mostly limited to radar antennas, which required asymmetric reflectors anyway to create shaped beams. The advent in the 1970s of computer design tools which could easily calculate the radiation pattern of offset dishes has removed this limitation, and efficient offset designs are being used more and more widely in recent years.
   

I don't know about that. Look at these troposphere dishes with off-center receivers:

From http://web.archive.org/web/20090528134258/http://www.gdsatcom.com/troposcatter.php



Caption: "SATCOM Technologies’ newest addition to the troposcatter product line is the Dual-mode, All-band, Relocatable, Tactical Terminal (DART-T). Using industry-first technologies, this complete troposcatter system outperforms previous generations with its higher data rates, field-adaptable all-band operation, low weight and reduced prime power usage. Its patent-pending dual beam Ku-band feed uses angle diversity to achieve very low bit error rate in a small footprint terminal, replacing previous generations of troposcatter systems which were forced to rely on dual antennas on each end of the tropo link to achieve the necessary signal diversity. As a result, the number of antennas required for successful troposcatter operation is halved, freeing up valuable manpower and resources in the field."

Then there's this one from a page titled "SATCOM Technologies Troposcatter Communications System"

http://www.gdsatcom.com/email/1-10-08.htm




Compared to one of Thork's Satellite Dish images:

« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 03:46:07 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Woody

  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2016, 06:33:53 AM »
Have a look at

Quote from: Wikipedia
Offset dish antenna
Main types of parabolic antennas
An off-axis or offset dish antenna is a type of parabolic antenna. It is so called because the antenna feed is offset to the side of the reflector, in contrast to the common front-fed parabolic antenna where the feed is in front of the dish, on its axis. As in a front-fed parabolic dish, the feed is located at the focal point of the reflector, but the reflector is an asymmetric segment of a paraboloid, so the focus is located to the side.
The purpose of this design is to move the feed antenna and its supports out of the path of the incoming radio waves. In an ordinary front-fed dish antenna, the feed structure and its supports are located in the path of the incoming beam of radio waves, partially obstructing them, casting a "shadow" on the dish, reducing the radio power received. In technical terms this reduces the aperture efficiency of the antenna, reducing its gain. In the offset design, the feed is positioned outside the area of the beam, usually below it on a boom sticking out from the bottom edge of the dish. The beam axis of the antenna, the axis of the incoming or outgoing radio waves, is skewed at an angle to the plane of the dish mouth.
The design is most widely used for small parabolic antennas or "mini-dishes", such as common Ku band home satellite television dishes, where the feed structure is large enough in relation to the dish to block a significant proportion of the signal. Another application is on satellites, particularly the direct broadcast satellites which use parabolic dishes to beam television signals to homes on Earth. Because of the limited transmitter power provided by their solar cells, satellite antennas must function as efficiently as possible. The offset design is also widely used in radar antennas. These must collect as much signal as possible in order to detect faint return signals from faraway targets.
Offset dish antennas are more difficult to design than front-fed antennas because the dish is an asymmetric segment of a paraboloid with different curvatures in the two axes. Before the 1970s offset designs were mostly limited to radar antennas, which required asymmetric reflectors anyway to create shaped beams. The advent in the 1970s of computer design tools which could easily calculate the radiation pattern of offset dishes has removed this limitation, and efficient offset designs are being used more and more widely in recent years.
   

I don't know about that. Look at these troposphere dishes with off-center receivers:

From http://web.archive.org/web/20090528134258/http://www.gdsatcom.com/troposcatter.php



Caption: "SATCOM Technologies’ newest addition to the troposcatter product line is the Dual-mode, All-band, Relocatable, Tactical Terminal (DART-T). Using industry-first technologies, this complete troposcatter system outperforms previous generations with its higher data rates, field-adaptable all-band operation, low weight and reduced prime power usage. Its patent-pending dual beam Ku-band feed uses angle diversity to achieve very low bit error rate in a small footprint terminal, replacing previous generations of troposcatter systems which were forced to rely on dual antennas on each end of the tropo link to achieve the necessary signal diversity. As a result, the number of antennas required for successful troposcatter operation is halved, freeing up valuable manpower and resources in the field."

Then there's this one from a page titled "SATCOM Technologies Troposcatter Communications System"

http://www.gdsatcom.com/email/1-10-08.htm




Compared to one of Thork's Satellite Dish images:



Did you notice the size difference between Thork's picture and yours?

Did you research the advancement of the technology and time line?

As technology and techniques improved/improves the size of the receiving dishes decreased/will decrease and data rates have/will increase.

Looking closer you should realize the antennas currently used for troposcatter are much larger so they can receive the signal than the antennas used for satellite TV. They used to need to be

Militaries are interested in troposcatter because of the narrow transmission beam.  It allows for more security because the signal can be directed and have a very narrow range where it can be intercepted.  Compare that to satellite transmissions which can be received over a very large area.


The above is a antenna built in 1965 using troposcatter


The above is an early satellite dish.

Do you notice the size difference? Do you notice the troposcatter antenna is actually two antennas since it increased the reliability?
As I pointed out we now live in a time where they reduced the sizes, increased data rate and reliability.  This did not happen when satellite transmissions where first used to send signals to people's homes. Antennas used for troposcatter still need to be larger than the ones used for satellite transmissions since the signal is still weaker and atmospheric conditions have a greater influence on them.

*

Offline rabinoz

  • *
  • Posts: 1436
  • Just look South at the Stars
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2016, 07:17:30 AM »
Have a look at

Quote from: Wikipedia
Offset dish antenna
Main types of parabolic antennas
An off-axis or offset dish antenna is a type of parabolic antenna. It is so called because the antenna feed is offset to the side of the reflector, in contrast to the common front-fed parabolic antenna where the feed is in front of the dish, on its axis. As in a front-fed parabolic dish, the feed is located at the focal point of the reflector, but the reflector is an asymmetric segment of a paraboloid, so the focus is located to the side.
The purpose of this design is to move the feed antenna and its supports out of the path of the incoming radio waves. In an ordinary front-fed dish antenna, the feed structure and its supports are located in the path of the incoming beam of radio waves, partially obstructing them, casting a "shadow" on the dish, reducing the radio power received. In technical terms this reduces the aperture efficiency of the antenna, reducing its gain. In the offset design, the feed is positioned outside the area of the beam, usually below it on a boom sticking out from the bottom edge of the dish. The beam axis of the antenna, the axis of the incoming or outgoing radio waves, is skewed at an angle to the plane of the dish mouth.
The design is most widely used for small parabolic antennas or "mini-dishes", such as common Ku band home satellite television dishes, where the feed structure is large enough in relation to the dish to block a significant proportion of the signal. Another application is on satellites, particularly the direct broadcast satellites which use parabolic dishes to beam television signals to homes on Earth. Because of the limited transmitter power provided by their solar cells, satellite antennas must function as efficiently as possible. The offset design is also widely used in radar antennas. These must collect as much signal as possible in order to detect faint return signals from faraway targets.
Offset dish antennas are more difficult to design than front-fed antennas because the dish is an asymmetric segment of a paraboloid with different curvatures in the two axes. Before the 1970s offset designs were mostly limited to radar antennas, which required asymmetric reflectors anyway to create shaped beams. The advent in the 1970s of computer design tools which could easily calculate the radiation pattern of offset dishes has removed this limitation, and efficient offset designs are being used more and more widely in recent years.
   

I don't know about that. Look at these troposphere dishes with off-center receivers:

From http://web.archive.org/web/20090528134258/http://www.gdsatcom.com/troposcatter.php



Caption: "SATCOM Technologies’ newest addition to the troposcatter product line is the Dual-mode, All-band, Relocatable, Tactical Terminal (DART-T). Using industry-first technologies, this complete troposcatter system outperforms previous generations with its higher data rates, field-adaptable all-band operation, low weight and reduced prime power usage. Its patent-pending dual beam Ku-band feed uses angle diversity to achieve very low bit error rate in a small footprint terminal, replacing previous generations of troposcatter systems which were forced to rely on dual antennas on each end of the tropo link to achieve the necessary signal diversity. As a result, the number of antennas required for successful troposcatter operation is halved, freeing up valuable manpower and resources in the field."

Then there's this one from a page titled "SATCOM Technologies Troposcatter Communications System"

http://www.gdsatcom.com/email/1-10-08.htm



Compared to one of Thork's Satellite Dish images:



The elevation angle of the satellite dish can vary greatly, depending mainly on the latitude. Here are some in Indonesia, quite close to the equator:

Satellite TV Dishes in Indonesia, pointing up at almost 90°.
     

Satellite television dishes in Malaysia.
They don't look like tropospheric scatter antennae.

But, as I stated before tropospheric scatter is useful for point-to-point communication, but is quite unsuitable for a continent wide broadcasting as DBS TV.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2016, 08:48:02 AM »

Did you notice the size difference between Thork's picture and yours?

Did you research the advancement of the technology and time line?

As technology and techniques improved/improves the size of the receiving dishes decreased/will decrease and data rates have/will increase.

Looking closer you should realize the antennas currently used for troposcatter are much larger so they can receive the signal than the antennas used for satellite TV. They used to need to be

Militaries are interested in troposcatter because of the narrow transmission beam.  It allows for more security because the signal can be directed and have a very narrow range where it can be intercepted.  Compare that to satellite transmissions which can be received over a very large area.

That would be a pretty dumb military application if any military operation which uses it has to be located in line with where the transmitter is pointing. How does that work? A lot of those military broadcasting antennas don't even look like they turn. And then in a combat situation how does it work when there are multiple teams spread across a large battle field trying to communicate with toposcatter tech?

I think it more likely operates like a spotlight in the sky that anyone can see.

The following article seems to suggest that Troposcatter was introduced because the military didn't like having their current communication setup using microwave transmitters which required multiple transmitters and the field teams to be in a line with the antenna. It appears that they were able to replace multiple microwave transmitters with one Troposcatter transmitter. That sounds to me like it's broadcasting a spotlight in the sky that anyone can see and communicate with.

From http://www.comtechsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Troposcatter-In-The-Modern-Military.pdf

Quote
In an attempt to free-up satellite bandwidth, ground forces increased the use of Line-Of-Sight
microwave equipment. While useful, the problem in many instances was that LOS required
multiple relays to maneuver around obstacles or to span distances greater than the limited range
of tactical LOS links. This in turn resulted in relays being installed in unsecured areas that
required force protection and had no supporting infrastructure, thus limiting the use of LOS as a
complete battlefield bandwidth solution.

As an alternative to LOS and satellite, the military deployed its aging fleet of AN/TRC-170
troposcatter systems to provide intra theater communications. These vehicle mounted systems
with trailer transported antennas were the main stays of tactical long haul communications from
the 1970s through the early 1990s. One of the largest deployed troposcatter networks was
established using the AN/TRC-170 during Operation Desert Storm, consisting of over 60 links.
The success of mobile troposcatter systems in Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) and
Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) substantiated the value of troposcatter communications on the
modern battlefield.

Quote from: woody
Do you notice the size difference? Do you notice the troposcatter antenna is actually two antennas since it increased the reliability?
As I pointed out we now live in a time where they reduced the sizes, increased data rate and reliability.  This did not happen when satellite transmissions where first used to send signals to people's homes.

Satellite dishes on people's homes also used to be a lot bigger. It looks like as Troposcatter antennas shrunk so did the dishes on people's homes.

Quote from: woody
Antennas used for troposcatter still need to be larger than the ones used for satellite transmissions since the signal is still weaker and atmospheric conditions have a greater influence on them.

Home satellite dish connections are also subject to atmospheric conditions. What are you trying to tell us?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 09:04:18 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2016, 09:19:43 AM »
Some notes from this article on Troposcatter transmissions:

http://www.comtechsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Troposcatter-Introduction-Nov-2013.pdf

It appears that high bandwidth applications are not a problem:

Quote
Today, using high speed modems with advanced signal processing, digital voice, data and video
can be streamed across high reliability links for military and commercial applications as part of a
complete communications network.

In section 4.3 we see that it is possible to have multiple receivers. This seems to suggest that it works more like a spotlight in the sky (but probably on a very high reflective layer) that anyone can receive a signal from:

Quote


http://i68.tinypic.com/2hprw95.png
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 02:57:34 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Woody

  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2016, 09:25:03 AM »

Did you notice the size difference between Thork's picture and yours?

Did you research the advancement of the technology and time line?

As technology and techniques improved/improves the size of the receiving dishes decreased/will decrease and data rates have/will increase.

Looking closer you should realize the antennas currently used for troposcatter are much larger so they can receive the signal than the antennas used for satellite TV. They used to need to be

Militaries are interested in troposcatter because of the narrow transmission beam.  It allows for more security because the signal can be directed and have a very narrow range where it can be intercepted.  Compare that to satellite transmissions which can be received over a very large area.

That would be a pretty dumb military application if any military operation which uses it has to be located in line with where the transmitter is pointing. How does that work? A lot of those military broadcasting antennas don't even look like they turn. And then in a combat situation how does it work when there are multiple teams spread across a large battle field trying to communicate with toposcatter tech?

I think it is more likely operates like a spotlight in the sky that anyone can see.

Look, I spent literally 2 minutes researching the matter and proved you wrong that Troposcatter tech worked only in a line like you described and is more like a spotlight in the sky that anyone can see:

http://www.comtechsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Troposcatter-In-The-Modern-Military.pdf

Quote
In an attempt to free-up satellite bandwidth, ground forces increased the use of Line-Of-Sight
microwave equipment. While useful, the problem in many instances was that LOS required
multiple relays to maneuver around obstacles or to span distances greater than the limited range
of tactical LOS links. This in turn resulted in relays being installed in unsecured areas that
required force protection and had no supporting infrastructure, thus limiting the use of LOS as a
complete battlefield bandwidth solution.

As an alternative to LOS and satellite, the military deployed its aging fleet of AN/TRC-170
troposcatter systems to provide intra theater communications.
These vehicle mounted systems
with trailer transported antennas were the main stays of tactical long haul communications from
the 1970s through the early 1990s. One of the largest deployed troposcatter networks was
established using the AN/TRC-170 during Operation Desert Storm, consisting of over 60 links.
The success of mobile troposcatter systems in Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) and
Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) substantiated the value of troposcatter communications on the
modern battlefield.

Quote
Do you notice the size difference? Do you notice the troposcatter antenna is actually two antennas since it increased the reliability?
As I pointed out we now live in a time where they reduced the sizes, increased data rate and reliability.  This did not happen when satellite transmissions where first used to send signals to people's homes.

Satellite dishes on people's homes also used to be a lot bigger. It looks like as Troposcatter antennas shrunk so did the dishes on people's homes.

Quote
Antennas used for troposcatter still need to be larger than the ones used for satellite transmissions since the signal is still weaker and atmospheric conditions have a greater influence on them.

Home satellite dish connections are also subject to atmospheric conditions. What are you trying to tell us?

Well having being in long range surveillance as the radio operator where I had to send transmissions with satellites and other radios across the globe I think differently and so does the military.  The most secure and hardest to detect was not the satellite radio I used.  It was a a radio using a directional antenna.  Proven in training when intelligence units where trying to detect and track my team.

It is harder to detect a signal sent only in one direction.  It does not work like a spot light in the sky, do more research.  It is a directional signal being sent.  I was in the military in intelligence units using this technology and trained how to use it.  If the antenna's direction and elevation is off by a rather small margin depending on weather no signal is received.

Here is the very important part.  The sat-com antenna I used fit in my rucksack.  The antenna for troposcatter was mounted on a truck. Again need a large antenna to increase reliability and because the signal strength is much weaker.

Troposcatter transmissions are effected more by atmospheric conditions than satellite signals.  Like how humid it is, where a satellite signal generally needs really bad weather and thick cloud cover to be effected.

I read your link where did it say I was wrong?  troposcatter communications is directional and harder to intercept.  It is one reason the military is interested in advancing the technology.

Again I pointed out like a lot of stuff size is decreasing, amount of data and reliability is increasing.  Troposcatter antenna are still not carried by soldiers, but on trucks and trailers.  Troposcatter antennas need to be larger than a satellite antenna with the current technology we have.

So I literally spent less than a minute reading what you said prove me wrong.  It does not.

Keep in mind I used this equipment in real world conditions.  Troposcatter is not sending satellite signals are being used for GPS. With current technology we would need to go back to the 80's size satellite dishes.  Not only that satellite dishes would not all be pointing in the same direction across some place like North America.  We would also be seeing a lot more dishes around since the effective range of troposcatter transmissions is around 250km.  It can be around 300km depending on amount of data needed to be transmitted, atmospheric conditions and terrain. Older systems like the one from 1963 had further ranges, but as you see those antennas where rather large and not mobile.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2016, 09:26:16 AM »
Quote from: woody
It is harder to detect a signal sent only in one direction.  It does not work like a spot light in the sky, do more research.  It is a directional signal being sent.  I was in the military in intelligence units using this technology and trained how to use it.  If the antenna's direction and elevation is off by a rather small margin depending on weather no signal is received.

I did do research:

Some notes from this article on Troposcatter transmissions:

http://www.comtechsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Troposcatter-Introduction-Nov-2013.pdf

Quote
Today, using high speed modems with advanced signal processing, digital voice, data and video
can be streamed across high reliability links for military and commercial applications as part of a
complete communications network.

In section 4.3 we see that it is possible to have multiple receivers. This seems to suggest that it works more like a spotlight in the sky (but probably on a very high reflective layer) that anyone can receive a signal from:

Quote
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 09:33:17 AM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6543
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Satellites.... Troposcatter Technology?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2016, 09:33:55 AM »
Quote from: woody
Again I pointed out like a lot of stuff size is decreasing, amount of data and reliability is increasing.  Troposcatter antenna are still not carried by soldiers, but on trucks and trailers.  Troposcatter antennas need to be larger than a satellite antenna with the current technology we have.

This link says that a Troposcatter terminal can be as small as a "portable transit case system":

http://www.comtechsystems.com/industries-capabilities/troposcatter-overview/

Quote
A troposcatter system is a point-to-point link that requires a terminal on each end, with each terminal both transmitting and receiving. Terminals can range in size from a portable transit case system to a vehicle-mounted system or large fixed installation.