Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #220 on: July 20, 2016, 11:52:35 PM »
You are full of shit with your shitty hypotheticals. 
Your entire hypothetical ONLY makes sense if it assumes telepathic ability ---- in which case, your hypothetical is redundant. 


Tribe A: members have the "sacrificial love" character trait.
How do you know that? 
Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls! 

Tribe B: members don't have "sacrificial love" character trait.
How do you know that? 
Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls! 

Tribe B: Every man for himself.
How do you know that? 
Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls! 

Tribe A: One person jumps on the lion.
You have no idea why. 
Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls!

An ally!

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #221 on: July 21, 2016, 12:07:28 AM »
Robaroni, your response to being provided the science you requested is a bunch of opinions?  Seriously?
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #222 on: July 21, 2016, 12:34:21 AM »
These same arguments again? Whelp... 6th... time's a charm!

Please, not again! I went through your hypothetical story, most of it is symbiotic. The last part assumes science can determine good!

Beneficial is a relative term, like good.

If I take this pill will it be beneficial? Science can tell us the theory behind the chemical reaction in our bodies but it can't tell us if the result is beneficial or good. That's a product of human subjectivity. I feel 'good' from the pills I took.

This has nothing to do with anything subjective, or with what science can "know". If a trait (like love) results in more species with that trait surviving, then it is beneficial to the survival of the speciese as a whole. That's all there is to it. If a trait causes an individual to sacrifice himself so that his children can survive, then that trait causes that individual's genetics to be passed on. This really is not up for debate. It's evolution 101. If you still don't understand, read an intro to evolution book.

Quote
Again, Give me the science showing that man will die if he doesn't love.

No. That is not how evolution works. Whoever told you that a trait must be vital for survival for it to be promoted by evolution was lying to you. The trait only has to be slightly beneficial to the species as a whole. Again, not up for debate. Evolution 101. If you disagree, go read any intro to evolution book.

Quote
Give me the science to justify dying to save my loved one. I'm dead, no benefit to me, no material me (no science, science deals in the material only) and no ability for science to judge if my action is good for the group.

Clearly you don't have the slightest idea how evolution works. Seriously, just go read an intro to evolution book. Evolution doesn't care about the survival of an individual. It cares about the survival of the group as a whole. More survivors => more chance to pass on the group's genetics => more people with those genes. It is as simple as that. Sacrificing oneself for your tribe or your children allows THEM to pass on your genes for you.

Quote
You keep looking to evolution for your answer, I don't care what science you use but you haven't answered anything really.

No, I am not looking to evolution for any answers. I'm not even trying to prove that evolution is true. I am merely showing how it is plausible, which is enough to counter your original argument.

And Jura thinks I'm the robot!

Nonsense!
Your loved one is dying are you thinking about evolution, about group dynamics? Are you thinking if I let this weak loved one die I can have more healthier loved ones? No, are you instinctively following some esoteric science man can't explain? No, there's no instinct involved, we already went through this. You're contemplating - thinking!
Are you thinking that you will be dead and if you are an atheist that life will be completely over? Yes!

So where's the science to justify it?

R

This doesn't come even remotely close to addressing anything I said. It doesn't matter what the person was thinking when he sacrificed himself. It doesn't matter why he sacrificed himself. The only thing that matters is the result. Storytime #2:

Tribe A: members have the "sacrificial love" character trait.
Tribe B: members don't have "sacrificial love" character trait.

Giant lion attacks both tribes.

Tribe B: Every man for himself. Everyone scatters. Lion hunts them all down individually in the night.

Tribe A: One person jumps on the lion. He knows he will die, but this gives the rest of the tribe time to stab the lion with spears.

Tribe A survives, tribe B doesn't. Tribe A passes on their "sacrificial love" trait to the next generation. Therefore, "sacrificial love" has an evolutionary advantage. Did it matter what the sacrificial person was thinking? No, it did not. All that mattered was the result. My arguments stand.

As to your tirade about how much more experience you have with love than all of us... You just got onto me for indirectly comparing my own intelligence to others. A bit hypocritical, don't you think?

You keep tripping over the same stone.

We knowingly give our life for our child, are we acting on some evolutionary impulse. Are we robots? No. Are we animals that we have no way of knowing, not only why they are thinking but what their perception of death is. None whatsoever!

You keep trying to shoehorn evolution into a viable answer. I gave you a fact. I risked my life for someone. I knew that I could die, it wasn't an impulse, people do it everyday, not just me. You're giving me a hypothetical, I'm giving you facts. You're attempting justify actions by dismissing the individual's ability to know what is transpiring. You want to make man a robot to fit your conclusion.

1. Man universally yearns to love and be loved. A fact.

2. Man gives his life knowingly for others. Fact. It's not instinct. Why doesn't he value his own life, his own survival above others? Evolutionary programming? Evolution dictates flight to save the self. Mathematics favors living and impregnating several women to have a better group survival chance.

"As to your tirade about how much more experience you have with love than all of us... You just got onto me for indirectly comparing my own intelligence to others. A bit hypocritical, don't you think?"

No, how little Rama knows about love! We're having a debate where compassion is the main theme, Knowing something about yourself, experiencing love certainly helps - a lot! He knows nothing but he thinks someone's theory is right. Not possible!
Have I experienced love, have I sat down and analyzed my actions? Yes, did I come to the conclusion on my own that love is not fear and that love can never be a trade? Yes. Did I find that analysts and philosophers agreed with my assessment. Yes.

 I think everyone should spend time inquiring into their actions and thinking. Love is the core of human existence, yet so many know so little about what it means to them, what life means.

Look at you, spending your time fighting with people about the shape of the earth. Again what will you gain if you are right? Nothing of any value. but I ask you what is more important than loving and being loved and the best you can do is"eat and drink".

So the floor is your's, again, what does it mean to you to love and be loved? Not some book, my idea, someone else's perspective. can you find out for yourself from completely within yourself. Or do you need to ask someone else? Because someone who does that is not alive, their life is nothing more than someone else's idea. So now they are an atheist because they never found out for them self if it's possible for something greater than their meager existence to be.

R
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 12:36:52 AM by Robaroni »

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #223 on: July 21, 2016, 02:27:57 AM »
Try reasoned debate, you may learn something.
There is no debate. 

There are only statements of facts. 
watch?v=xhcVJcINzn8

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #224 on: July 21, 2016, 09:32:43 AM »
If Love is proof of gods’ existence and has nothing to do with evolution how come biologists can turn it on or off with drugs.

The Science;

In terms of natural selection, the human adult pair bond seems to have developed from earlier structures involved in sustaining the attachment between mothers and their infants (Young 2009). This “adaptive workaround” (Eastwick 2009) may have been driven by the heightened importance—over generations of human evolution—of paternal investment in offspring with increasingly large and more complex cerebrums. These burgeoning baby brains took longer to reach maturity than their more ancestral counterparts, leaving the infant vulnerable and underdeveloped for extended periods of time. If parents fell in love and remained together at least during this fragile period for their offspring, their own genetic fitness would be enhanced (Fisher 1992).

Underlying human love, then, is a set of basic brain systems for lust, attraction, and attachment that have evolved among mammals. Helen Fisher and her colleagues (Fisher 1998; Fisher et al. 2002) have argued that the lust system promotes mating with a range of promising partners; the attraction system guides us to choose and prefer a particular partner; and the attachment system fosters long-term bonding, encouraging couples to cooperate and stay together until their parental duties have been discharged. These universal systems are hypothesized to form a biological foundation on which the cultural and individual variants of sexual, romantic, and longer term love are built (Gottschall and Nordlund 2006; Jankowiak and Fischer 1992).

From this perspective, love is a “complex neurobiological phenomenon” that has been wired into our biology by the forces of evolution. “Relying on trust, belief, pleasure, and reward activities” concentrated in the limbic system (Esch and Stefano 2005, 175), love's ability to bring together (and keep together) human beings—from prehistoric times until the present day—has played a key role in the survival of our species.
From the “American journal of bioethics” If I Could Just Stop Loving You: Anti-Love Biotechnology and the Ethics of a Chemical Breakup

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15265161.2013.839752

Albeit in it’s infancy, stifling feelings of love in people with dangerous fixations (abusive partners, paedophiles and other paraphilia’s) as well as more questionable uses (“fixing” homosexuality and decreasing lust in Ultraorthodox Jewish students) is a thing.
And this is science that has turned famously monogamous prairie voles, polygamous by blocking oxytocin and reduced stress levels in those that had lost long term partners by blocking corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF). 
 (see also https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129564-600-cure-for-love-chemical-cures-for-the-lovesick).


Now I know you are going to go for the phrases “seems to” etc but this is the language of real seekers of knowledge, peer reviewed and not a hunch merchant such as yourself.

(FYI. Rama is a sex-bomb who has to beat them off with a stick)

"Underlying human love, then, is a set of basic brain systems for lust, attraction, and attachment that have evolved among mammals." Yep!

The root of lust is fear.Bullshit In the form of desire, we are unfulfilled, incomplete - we desire. Lust is about the self. Love is never about the self, love is never fear. I give my life for my dying child, is it lust? Nobody said it was, but it is almost certainly why you have one in the first place . No! Attraction? Is that what is driving our actions when we give our life? No.Notice you didn't put the "attachment" bit here(?)

Are we acting out of some nebulous evolutionary drive? No, we knowingly give our life for our dying child. We know exactly what is happening. Does an animal know what it means to face eternal nothingness? We have no idea, what is the animal thinking? We don't know. We do know that man has those capacities. Same old, same old. Your complete inability to separate deeply encoded instinctive drives from your nebulous thought process.

Your thought process (as we're on this) by the way is not the causal factor you imagine it to be, research shows that your brain has decided what you are going to do up to 10 seconds before your conscience “makes” the choice, your thoughts are mainly justification for your actions (http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html). So your heroic intervention for your child is instinctual, you just validate the decisions if there is an afterwards, makes a good story for the camp fire. 




New pic, same frown. It looks to me like the kind of frown you get talking to dumb people.

R

See notes above;

And then answer, If Love is proof of gods’ existence and has nothing to do with evolution how come biologists can turn it on or off with drugs?
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #225 on: July 21, 2016, 12:03:36 PM »
If Love is proof of gods’ existence and has nothing to do with evolution how come biologists can turn it on or off with drugs.

The Science;

In terms of natural selection, the human adult pair bond seems to have developed from earlier structures involved in sustaining the attachment between mothers and their infants (Young 2009). This “adaptive workaround” (Eastwick 2009) may have been driven by the heightened importance—over generations of human evolution—of paternal investment in offspring with increasingly large and more complex cerebrums. These burgeoning baby brains took longer to reach maturity than their more ancestral counterparts, leaving the infant vulnerable and underdeveloped for extended periods of time. If parents fell in love and remained together at least during this fragile period for their offspring, their own genetic fitness would be enhanced (Fisher 1992).

Underlying human love, then, is a set of basic brain systems for lust, attraction, and attachment that have evolved among mammals. Helen Fisher and her colleagues (Fisher 1998; Fisher et al. 2002) have argued that the lust system promotes mating with a range of promising partners; the attraction system guides us to choose and prefer a particular partner; and the attachment system fosters long-term bonding, encouraging couples to cooperate and stay together until their parental duties have been discharged. These universal systems are hypothesized to form a biological foundation on which the cultural and individual variants of sexual, romantic, and longer term love are built (Gottschall and Nordlund 2006; Jankowiak and Fischer 1992).

From this perspective, love is a “complex neurobiological phenomenon” that has been wired into our biology by the forces of evolution. “Relying on trust, belief, pleasure, and reward activities” concentrated in the limbic system (Esch and Stefano 2005, 175), love's ability to bring together (and keep together) human beings—from prehistoric times until the present day—has played a key role in the survival of our species.
From the “American journal of bioethics” If I Could Just Stop Loving You: Anti-Love Biotechnology and the Ethics of a Chemical Breakup

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15265161.2013.839752

Albeit in it’s infancy, stifling feelings of love in people with dangerous fixations (abusive partners, paedophiles and other paraphilia’s) as well as more questionable uses (“fixing” homosexuality and decreasing lust in Ultraorthodox Jewish students) is a thing.
And this is science that has turned famously monogamous prairie voles, polygamous by blocking oxytocin and reduced stress levels in those that had lost long term partners by blocking corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF). 
 (see also https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129564-600-cure-for-love-chemical-cures-for-the-lovesick).


Now I know you are going to go for the phrases “seems to” etc but this is the language of real seekers of knowledge, peer reviewed and not a hunch merchant such as yourself.

(FYI. Rama is a sex-bomb who has to beat them off with a stick)

"Underlying human love, then, is a set of basic brain systems for lust, attraction, and attachment that have evolved among mammals." Yep!

The root of lust is fear.Bullshit In the form of desire, we are unfulfilled, incomplete - we desire. Lust is about the self. Love is never about the self, love is never fear. I give my life for my dying child, is it lust? Nobody said it was, but it is almost certainly why you have one in the first place . No! Attraction? Is that what is driving our actions when we give our life? No.Notice you didn't put the "attachment" bit here(?)

Are we acting out of some nebulous evolutionary drive? No, we knowingly give our life for our dying child. We know exactly what is happening. Does an animal know what it means to face eternal nothingness? We have no idea, what is the animal thinking? We don't know. We do know that man has those capacities. Same old, same old. Your complete inability to separate deeply encoded instinctive drives from your nebulous thought process.

Your thought process (as we're on this) by the way is not the causal factor you imagine it to be, research shows that your brain has decided what you are going to do up to 10 seconds before your conscience “makes” the choice, your thoughts are mainly justification for your actions (http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html). So your heroic intervention for your child is instinctual, you just validate the decisions if there is an afterwards, makes a good story for the camp fire. 




New pic, same frown. It looks to me like the kind of frown you get talking to dumb people.

R

See notes above;

And then answer, If Love is proof of gods’ existence and has nothing to do with evolution how come biologists can turn it on or off with drugs?

Are you a "prairie vole"? Can I turn on your compassion and force you into giving your heart to save someone else? I can drug you into not know what you are doing but this is not what is happening when I act out of compassion sans drugs. Can I turn on your love for someone you have no interest in and force you live your life with them?

Lust is not love. A prostitute can satisfy an individual's lust. Is that love, human compassion? No it's a trade, I pay you, you have sex with me. you're making my point, man can procreate without love.

Jura:

"Your thought process (as we're on this) by the way is not the causal factor you imagine it to be, research shows that your brain has decided what you are going to do up to 10 seconds before your conscience “makes” the choice, your thoughts are mainly justification for your actions (http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html). So your heroic intervention for your child is instinctual, you just validate the decisions if there is an afterwards, makes a good story for the camp fire.  [/color][/b]"

My child is dying the doctor comes to me and says your heart can save your child but you will die. Ten seconds? No you process the decision. We know all about thought going from the rear integrative cortex to the front integrative cortex and the time it takes. What you're talking about is the first answer is not always the best. The first student in class to answer a question hass less time to contemplate the answer, it takes time to think of all the possible solutions to a problem. It has nothing to do with running to save a loved one in trouble or giving ones life for a loved one. I'm sitting here right now and I know without a doubt that I would give my life for my loved ones. Ask me in an hour and I will tell you the same thing.

"Bullshit" That response in a debate is called intellectual bankruptcy. I have no viable answer so the best this is the best I can do.

R
"New pic, same frown."

Jura
It looks to me like the kind of frown you get talking to dumb people.

What does it say about you if "dump people" have that much effect on you?

R

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #226 on: July 21, 2016, 01:19:19 PM »
Wow, there is no point presenting Robaroni with facts and evidence.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #227 on: July 21, 2016, 02:01:23 PM »

Wow, there is no point presenting Robaroni with facts and evidence.

Nope!

Speed reads it, doesn't understand, rinse & repeat.

Incidentally "Bullshit" is a wonderful response when someone makes a statement such as "The root of lust is fear".

That I frown in the presence of dumb people just goes to show my empathy, I see something really dumb (see above) but instead of ridicule I think "I can help here", so I give up my time to help, and I just keep on giving however much it becomes apparent that they will never quite get it, I swear one day I will become a saint.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #228 on: July 21, 2016, 02:47:33 PM »

Wow, there is no point presenting Robaroni with facts and evidence.

Nope!

Speed reads it, doesn't understand, rinse & repeat.

Incidentally "Bullshit" is a wonderful response when someone makes a statement such as "The root of lust is fear".

That I frown in the presence of dumb people just goes to show my empathy, I see something really dumb (see above) but instead of ridicule I think "I can help here", so I give up my time to help, and I just keep on giving however much it becomes apparent that they will never quite get it, I swear one day I will become a saint.

 Richard Lazarus with Bernice N Lazarus, Passion and Reason: Making Sense of Our Emotions, 1994, New York: Oxford University Press ISBN 978-0-19-510461-5:

"Lust is an emotion or feeling of intense desire in the body. The lust can take any form such as the lust for sex, lust for expensive objects (extravagance) or the lust for power. It can take such mundane forms as the lust for food as distinct from the need for food. Lust is a psychological force producing intense wanting for an object, or circumstance fulfilling the emotion.[1]

Lust for sex, money, whatever. Lust is a strong desire. We desire because we are unfulfilled, wanting. We want for power, for example, because we believe we are powerless and we fear we will be preyed upon.

"apparent that they will never quite get it"

Get what? What you believe? And you know all there is to know about loving and being loved because of your great depth of experience, so you can make a determination that compassion is just science? I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion.

Do you believe you get everything? All knowing? Pretty arrogant thinking others "don't get it".

Georg Cantor is frowning because Jura doesn't get Aleph Naught, the Set Theory and multiple infinities and never will.

R


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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #229 on: July 21, 2016, 03:01:20 PM »

 Richard Lazarus with Bernice N Lazarus, Passion and Reason: Making Sense of Our Emotions, 1994, New York: Oxford University Press ISBN 978-0-19-510461-5:

"Lust is an emotion or feeling of intense desire in the body. The lust can take any form such as the lust for sex, lust for expensive objects (extravagance) or the lust for power. It can take such mundane forms as the lust for food as distinct from the need for food. Lust is a psychological force producing intense wanting for an object, or circumstance fulfilling the emotion.[1]

Lust for sex, money, whatever. Lust is a strong desire. We desire because we are unfulfilled, wanting. We want for power, for example, because we believe we are powerless and we fear we will be preyed upon.

Your quote says nothing about fear, that is literally your opinion and not worth very much in this context.

You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #230 on: July 21, 2016, 07:01:37 PM »
You keep tripping over the same stone.

The irony in this statement is so thick you could sprinkle sugar on it and serve it as desert.

Quote
We knowingly give our life for our child, are we acting on some evolutionary impulse. Are we robots? No.

For the billionth time: it doesn't matter whether you did it knowingly, impulsively, instinctually, reflexively, flatulantly... It doesn't matter! It doesn't matter if you thought about it for 10 years or 10 microseconds. It doesn't matter why you did it. It doesn't matter! You seem to be under the misunderstanding that evolution has no way of influencing how you think. Just because you did something knowingly does not mean you are free from all past evolutionary influence. If that assumption is part of your reasoning, then all your conclusions will be extremely biased.

Quote
Why doesn't he value his own life, his own survival above others? Evolutionary programming? Evolution dictates flight to save the self. Mathematics favors living and impregnating several women to have a better group survival chance.

That is NOT what evolution dictates. Please see my "story times" for an illustration of how evolution can promote self sacrifice.

Quote
No, how little Rama knows about love! We're having a debate where compassion is the main theme, Knowing something about yourself, experiencing love certainly helps - a lot! He knows nothing but he thinks someone's theory is right. Not possible!
Have I experienced love, have I sat down and analyzed my actions? Yes, did I come to the conclusion on my own that love is not fear and that love can never be a trade? Yes. Did I find that analysts and philosophers agreed with my assessment. Yes.

 I think everyone should spend time inquiring into their actions and thinking. Love is the core of human existence, yet so many know so little about what it means to them, what life means.

Look at you, spending your time fighting with people about the shape of the earth. Again what will you gain if you are right? Nothing of any value. but I ask you what is more important than loving and being loved and the best you can do is"eat and drink".

So the floor is your's, again, what does it mean to you to love and be loved? Not some book, my idea, someone else's perspective. can you find out for yourself from completely within yourself. Or do you need to ask someone else? Because someone who does that is not alive, their life is nothing more than someone else's idea. So now they are an atheist because they never found out for them self if it's possible for something greater than their meager existence to be.

No thanks. I am not interested in discussing the meaning of love with you, anymore than I already have. Your philosophical ramblings demonstrate very little intellectual rigor or consistency. "The root of lust is fear." I agree with Jura. Bullshit. And I came to that conclusion based entirely on personal experience. That's what you asked for, isn't it?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 07:34:13 PM by TotesNotReptilian »

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #231 on: July 21, 2016, 09:56:34 PM »

Wow, there is no point presenting Robaroni with facts and evidence.

Nope!

Speed reads it, doesn't understand, rinse & repeat.

Incidentally "Bullshit" is a wonderful response when someone makes a statement such as "The root of lust is fear".

That I frown in the presence of dumb people just goes to show my empathy, I see something really dumb (see above) but instead of ridicule I think "I can help here", so I give up my time to help, and I just keep on giving however much it becomes apparent that they will never quite get it, I swear one day I will become a saint.

 Richard Lazarus with Bernice N Lazarus, Passion and Reason: Making Sense of Our Emotions, 1994, New York: Oxford University Press ISBN 978-0-19-510461-5:

"Lust is an emotion or feeling of intense desire in the body. The lust can take any form such as the lust for sex, lust for expensive objects (extravagance) or the lust for power. It can take such mundane forms as the lust for food as distinct from the need for food. Lust is a psychological force producing intense wanting for an object, or circumstance fulfilling the emotion.[1]

Lust for sex, money, whatever. Lust is a strong desire. We desire because we are unfulfilled, wanting. We want for power, for example, because we believe we are powerless and we fear we will be preyed upon.

"apparent that they will never quite get it"

Get what? What you believe? And you know all there is to know about loving and being loved because of your great depth of experience, so you can make a determination that compassion is just science? I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion.

Do you believe you get everything? All knowing? Pretty arrogant thinking others "don't get it".

Georg Cantor is frowning because Jura doesn't get Aleph Naught, the Set Theory and multiple infinities and never will.

R

Nope! Wrong again.

Lust can mean a strong desire, but in the context it was used it has no connection to love of money or food other than a semantic one.

“The lust system (libido or sex drive), for example, is distinguished by craving for sexual gratification and is largely associated with the hormones estrogen and testosterone in both men and women. The attraction system promotes focused attention, intrusive or obsessive thoughts about the object of desire, feelings of exhilaration, and so on, and is associated primarily with adrenaline, dopamine, and serotonin.”

Focus ;

“In order to explore the neurochemistry of any love-diminishing intervention, we need to begin by understanding love itself from the perspective of the brain. 11 From this perspective, love is a “complex neurobiological phenomenon” that has been wired into our biology by the forces of evolution. “Relying on trust, belief, pleasure, and reward activities” concentrated in the limbic system (Esch and Stefano 2005, 175), love's ability to bring together (and keep together) human beings—from prehistoric times until the present day—has played a key role in the survival of our species. “

Still not get it?
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #232 on: July 22, 2016, 12:57:25 AM »
You keep tripping over the same stone.

The irony in this statement is so thick you could sprinkle sugar on it and serve it as desert.

Quote
We knowingly give our life for our child, are we acting on some evolutionary impulse. Are we robots? No.

For the billionth time: it doesn't matter whether you did it knowingly, impulsively, instinctually, reflexively, flatulantly... It doesn't matter! It doesn't matter if you thought about it for 10 years or 10 microseconds. It doesn't matter why you did it. It doesn't matter! You seem to be under the misunderstanding that evolution has no way of influencing how you think. Just because you did something knowingly does not mean you are free from all past evolutionary influence. If that assumption is part of your reasoning, then all your conclusions will be extremely biased.

Quote
Why doesn't he value his own life, his own survival above others? Evolutionary programming? Evolution dictates flight to save the self. Mathematics favors living and impregnating several women to have a better group survival chance.

That is NOT what evolution dictates. Please see my "story times" for an illustration of how evolution can promote self sacrifice.

Quote
No, how little Rama knows about love! We're having a debate where compassion is the main theme, Knowing something about yourself, experiencing love certainly helps - a lot! He knows nothing but he thinks someone's theory is right. Not possible!
Have I experienced love, have I sat down and analyzed my actions? Yes, did I come to the conclusion on my own that love is not fear and that love can never be a trade? Yes. Did I find that analysts and philosophers agreed with my assessment. Yes.

 I think everyone should spend time inquiring into their actions and thinking. Love is the core of human existence, yet so many know so little about what it means to them, what life means.

Look at you, spending your time fighting with people about the shape of the earth. Again what will you gain if you are right? Nothing of any value. but I ask you what is more important than loving and being loved and the best you can do is"eat and drink".

So the floor is your's, again, what does it mean to you to love and be loved? Not some book, my idea, someone else's perspective. can you find out for yourself from completely within yourself. Or do you need to ask someone else? Because someone who does that is not alive, their life is nothing more than someone else's idea. So now they are an atheist because they never found out for them self if it's possible for something greater than their meager existence to be.

No thanks. I am not interested in discussing the meaning of love with you, anymore than I already have. Your philosophical ramblings demonstrate very little intellectual rigor or consistency. "The root of lust is fear." I agree with Jura. Bullshit. And I came to that conclusion based entirely on personal experience. That's what you asked for, isn't it?

"That is NOT what evolution dictates. Please see my "story times" for an illustration of how evolution can promote self sacrifice."

I saw it and disagreed with it. Again, your premise assumes that the individual is either thinking about the group dynamic or is functioning instinctively. That's not what the individual is doing. The individual has time to contemplate his actions. Again, right now I will tell you that I would give my life for my loved one without any doubt. Am I functioning under the premise that the group will benefit? No. Am I acting instinctively? No.  Isn't it common sense to NOT give your life, to save yourself and to let the child die and have a better chance of healthy offspring? Sure, I'm not interested in the theory of evolution. I'm certainly not thinking about what Darwin thought. Evolution is not a perfect science, science is not capable of absolutes.

TNR:
"No thanks. I am not interested in discussing the meaning of love with you, anymore than I already have. Your philosophical ramblings demonstrate very little intellectual rigor or consistency."

You'll have to prove those accusations and show me the inconsistency in my statements. You can't simply accuse, you have to validate your position.

 "The root of lust is fear." I agree with Jura. Bullshit. And I came to that conclusion based entirely on personal experience. That's what you asked for, isn't it?"

I gave Jura the logic behind my premise. If you disagree you have to show that a lust for power is not driven by the fear of powerlessness by the individual. You can't simply say "bullshit". Again, it's considered intellectual bankruptcy in debates and is valueless. But you never debated formally did you? If you had you would have been disqualified. But you know that because you really graduated college but won't tell me "for personal reasons". That's the first time I ever heard that one!

R




Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #233 on: July 22, 2016, 01:42:24 AM »

Wow, there is no point presenting Robaroni with facts and evidence.

Nope!

Speed reads it, doesn't understand, rinse & repeat.

Incidentally "Bullshit" is a wonderful response when someone makes a statement such as "The root of lust is fear".

That I frown in the presence of dumb people just goes to show my empathy, I see something really dumb (see above) but instead of ridicule I think "I can help here", so I give up my time to help, and I just keep on giving however much it becomes apparent that they will never quite get it, I swear one day I will become a saint.

 Richard Lazarus with Bernice N Lazarus, Passion and Reason: Making Sense of Our Emotions, 1994, New York: Oxford University Press ISBN 978-0-19-510461-5:

"Lust is an emotion or feeling of intense desire in the body. The lust can take any form such as the lust for sex, lust for expensive objects (extravagance) or the lust for power. It can take such mundane forms as the lust for food as distinct from the need for food. Lust is a psychological force producing intense wanting for an object, or circumstance fulfilling the emotion.[1]

Lust for sex, money, whatever. Lust is a strong desire. We desire because we are unfulfilled, wanting. We want for power, for example, because we believe we are powerless and we fear we will be preyed upon.

"apparent that they will never quite get it"

Get what? What you believe? And you know all there is to know about loving and being loved because of your great depth of experience, so you can make a determination that compassion is just science? I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion.

Do you believe you get everything? All knowing? Pretty arrogant thinking others "don't get it".

Georg Cantor is frowning because Jura doesn't get Aleph Naught, the Set Theory and multiple infinities and never will.

R

Nope! Wrong again.

Lust can mean a strong desire, but in the context it was used it has no connection to love of money or food other than a semantic one.

“The lust system (libido or sex drive), for example, is distinguished by craving for sexual gratification and is largely associated with the hormones estrogen and testosterone in both men and women. The attraction system promotes focused attention, intrusive or obsessive thoughts about the object of desire, feelings of exhilaration, and so on, and is associated primarily with adrenaline, dopamine, and serotonin.”

Focus ;

“In order to explore the neurochemistry of any love-diminishing intervention, we need to begin by understanding love itself from the perspective of the brain. 11 From this perspective, love is a “complex neurobiological phenomenon” that has been wired into our biology by the forces of evolution. “Relying on trust, belief, pleasure, and reward activities” concentrated in the limbic system (Esch and Stefano 2005, 175), love's ability to bring together (and keep together) human beings—from prehistoric times until the present day—has played a key role in the survival of our species. “

Still not get it?

The first thing you need to do is give me the link. Is lust love? Not even close! And

You're making the same mistake as TNR. I would give my life for my loved one without any doubts or regrets. I have had time over my life to contemplate the ramifications of my actions. Worse if I'm an atheist I believe I will face eternal nothingness. these are facts. Where is compassion centered in the brain? We know the center of fear, the Amygdala but science has no center for compassion. How does it play a key role to my survival? I give my life, I'm dead! Why not survive and have more offspring? Mathematical probabilities favor the group.I gave you facts, you keep giving me theories that don't justify my actions.

Again, give me the link to your quote. Science has not found any part of the human body that is the source of compassionate love , lust yes.

"Lust can mean a strong desire, but in the context it was used it has no connection to love of money or food other than a semantic one."

Not true:

http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-cobuild/lust%20for%20power
lust   
1       n-uncount   Lust is a feeling of strong sexual desire for someone. 
His relationship with Angie was the first which combined lust with friendship..., His lust for her grew until it was overpowering.     
2       n-uncount   A lust for something is a very strong and eager desire to have it. 
oft N for n   (=passion) 
It was Fred's lust for glitz and glamour that was driving them apart.      lust after   , lust for 
1       phrasal verb   If you lust after someone or lust for them, you feel a very strong sexual desire for them. 
From what I hear, half the campus is lusting after her.      V P n 
2       phrasal verb   If you lust after or lust for something, you have a very strong desire to possess it. 
Sheard lusted after the Directorship.
      V P n 

Why does one individual lust after another individual that several other individual's have no desire for? Chemicals? Something has to start the chemicals flowing. Adrenaline doesn't just start by itself. We become afraid and then it starts to flow. Thought starts the process we see someone and we want to possess them, we desire them.

http://www.newliving.com/issues/jan_08/articles/desireandfear.html

"Desire and Fear: The Same Side of the Coin by Jeru Kabbal

     Desires and fears. How different they seem. How similar they truly are. How can desire and fear be so totally related? Think of it this way: if you say, "I want to be loved," it's the same thing as saying "I'm afraid I won't be loved."  If you say, "I want to have someone around me," it's the same as saying "I'm afraid of being alone." The truth is that fear and desire are at the root of each other. Rather, than leading us to fulfillment, desires take us away from it. The more desires we have, the greater the fear that those desires will not be fulfilled. And all desires represent one of two things: wanting something we don't have, such as great wealth, or not wanting something we have, such as a pile of overdue bills. We desire good health and vigor; we fear disease. We desire a loving relationship; we fear loneliness. Can you see that if you say, "I want to live," it's the same as saying "I'm afraid I will die,"?"

  "Finding Clarity:  A Guide to the Deeper Levels of Your Being" by Jeru Kabbal adapted by Leonard M. Zunin, M.D. and Robert Strock (North Atlantic Books; 2006),

http://jpmorganjr.com/what-you-fear-is-what-you-want/

"You can only experience fear for things you have desire for."

http://www.justiceschanfarber.com/the-trouble-with-desire-why-do-we-fear-what-we-want/

Justice Schanfarber Counselling – Campbell River BC
Counselling for Marriage, Couples, Individual, Family.

"The trouble with desire – Why do we fear what we want?"

I could give you more references, desire and fear have been linked for a very long time. Jung, Krishnamurti, etc.

Not "bullshit" at all, you're three very naive people.

R
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 01:52:30 AM by Robaroni »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #234 on: July 22, 2016, 02:21:15 AM »

"That is NOT what evolution dictates. Please see my "story times" for an illustration of how evolution can promote self sacrifice."

I saw it and disagreed with it. Again, your premise assumes that the individual is either thinking about the group dynamic or is functioning instinctively.

His premise does not assume that, and as Jura said, conscious may be nothing more than ad hoc rationalization of a choice you have already made in some other neurological process.  If you think it is a necessary consequence of his premise, then please show why. 

Quote
That's not what the individual is doing. The individual has time to contemplate his actions. Again, right now I will tell you that I would give my life for my loved one without any doubt. Am I functioning under the premise that the group will benefit? No. Am I acting instinctively? No.  Isn't it common sense to NOT give your life, to save yourself and to let the child die and have a better chance of healthy offspring?

You make it seem like human's aren't capable of acting like other animals after giving it thought.  Racism is another example of just such behavior.  People think through racist acts all the time and create whatever rationalization they need, but it is just classic in-group/out-group behavior which is seen all through the animal kingdom.   The thoughts are an ad hoc rationalizations for their feelings.

Quote
Sure, I'm not interested in the theory of evolution. I'm certainly not thinking about what Darwin thought.

You have made that abundantly clear.

Quote
Evolution is not a perfect science, science is not capable of absolutes.

How is this relevant?

Quote
TNR:
"No thanks. I am not interested in discussing the meaning of love with you, anymore than I already have. Your philosophical ramblings demonstrate very little intellectual rigor or consistency."

You'll have to prove those accusations and show me the inconsistency in my statements. You can't simply accuse, you have to validate your position.

You have been, quite a lot.  We have pointed out assumptions you make that are unfounded and assertions that you present as facts.  You ask for scientific explanations, but can offer no scientific rebuttals when those explanations come knocking.  Instead you simply say, "thats not how it is!  Here is the truth!"

 
Quote
"The root of lust is fear." I agree with Jura. Bullshit. And I came to that conclusion based entirely on personal experience. That's what you asked for, isn't it?"

I gave Jura the logic behind my premise. If you disagree you have to show that a lust for power is not driven by the fear of powerlessness by the individual. You can't simply say "bullshit".

But... you do it all the time.  Anyway, as Jura pointed out, lust is not solely for power, so your explanation cannot be the root. 

Quote
Again, it's considered intellectual bankruptcy in debates and is valueless. But you never debated formally did you? If you had you would have been disqualified. But you know that because you really graduated college but won't tell me "for personal reasons". That's the first time I ever heard that one!

You obviously have not been on the internet very much.  It seems pretty obvious that you are older, likely a senior citizen and are just not aware of what the etiquette surrounding communication on public fora is.  It is ok, we understand, but you should probably behave with an appropriate amount of humility regarding internet etiquette.

Here is a primer on the topic, but please learn more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymity#Anonymity_on_the_Internet
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #235 on: July 22, 2016, 11:12:18 AM »


That is NOT what evolution dictates. Please see my "story times" for an illustration of how evolution can promote self sacrifice.


Evolution doesn't "dictate" anything, it's a theory. Here's what evolution says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success. In Darwinian terms the phrase is best understood as "Survival of the form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."

Is the offspring with the defective heart in the "form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations"  No, the defect will repeat in future generations. Let the defective offspring die, don't give your life to save it have other healthier offspring.


TNR:
"No thanks. I am not interested in discussing the meaning of love with you, anymore than I already have. Your philosophical ramblings demonstrate very little intellectual rigor or consistency. "The root of lust is fear." I agree with Jura. Bullshit. And I came to that conclusion based entirely on personal experience. That's what you asked for, isn't it?"

And you would  be just as embarrassingly wrong as Jura. (see my response to her)

You're not interested in discussing love (you haven't really so far, by the way) because you have no idea what it is or means any more than you understand fear, desire or philosophy.

R


« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 11:23:05 AM by Robaroni »

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #236 on: July 22, 2016, 12:52:29 PM »
Jura-Glenlivet you are an idiot ;D

You're arguments are poor, and don't make sense. I ask you to refer to Genesis 1.1, what more proof do you require that god exists. You non-believers will burn in limbo for your sins. You obviously haven't read the bible.
2 John 1:9-11 ESV / 444 helpful votes    Helpful  Not Helpful
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.

I have been chosen to preach gods word throughout America! All Atheism is a form of terrorism towards our good lord!

Donald trump is the son of god reincarnated, he has been sent to save AMERICA from racism and low IQ's.


God will soon cast down you non believers! Hail Donald TRUMP!


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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #237 on: July 22, 2016, 01:20:21 PM »

The first thing you need to do is give me the link. I did, before, go back and find it as you obviously didn't read it Is lust love? Not even close! Like I said, If you actually read the articles you wouldn't be typing crap.

You're making the same mistake as TNR. I would give my life for my loved one .........blah...................................repeat.....................................................................Where is compassion centered in the brain? We know the center of fear, the Amygdala but science has no center for compassion. Wrong! The middle insular & the anterior cingulate cortex for instance (see http://www.vislab.ucl.ac.uk/pdf/NeuralBasisOfLove.pdf)   How does it play a key role to my survival? I give my life, ............blah..............................bullshit......................repeat.............I gave you facts,   you keep giving me theories We all have patiently explained, we have given you the science but you don,t read it and then demand the links, that you either then don't read or don't get , that don't justify my actions.

Again, give me the link to your quote. Science has not found any part of the human body that is the source of compassionate love , lust yes. Crap.. see above

"Lust can mean a strong desire, but in the context it was used it has no connection to love of money or food other than a semantic one."

Not true: But then you list a dictionary definition, which is semantics!

http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-cobuild/lust%20for%20power
lust   
1     Blaah blah

Why does one individual lust after another individual that several other individual's have no desire for? Chemicals? Something has to start the chemicals flowing. Adrenaline doesn't just start by itself. We become afraid and then it starts to flow. Massive huge steaming pile of guess what? And please don't list the words of life coaches, self styled guru's & wankers with beards as facts, it's embarrassing.


I could give you more references, desire and fear have been linked for a very long time. Jung, Krishnamurti, Homer Simpson, etc.

 I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion.







Is the offspring with the defective heart in the "form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations"  No, the defect will repeat in future generations. Let the defective offspring die, don't give your life to save it have other healthier offspring. Idiot! If the heart defect kills it before it gets to breeding it most definitely won't repeat. If it is a long term problem that kills you any time after you have had the kid but before they have flown away it will lower their chance of survival (down one parent), If it kills you after they have gone, no selection pressure, that's why we will never be immortal


TNR:
"No thanks. I am not interested in discussing the meaning of love with you, anymore than I already have. Your philosophical ramblings demonstrate very little intellectual rigor or consistency. "The root of lust is fear." I agree with Jura. Bullshit. And I came to that conclusion based entirely on personal experience. That's what you asked for, isn't it?" Love you Totes



R

GodThe..... or Rushy?
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #238 on: July 22, 2016, 02:19:14 PM »


Watch this and repent! I present you with scientific proof that their is a god!

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #239 on: July 22, 2016, 02:22:08 PM »