Offline Robaroni

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #240 on: July 22, 2016, 10:10:33 PM »
R

"Is the offspring with the defective heart in the "form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations"  No, the defect will repeat in future generations. Let the defective offspring die, don't give your life to save it have other healthier offspring."

Jura

 "Idiot! If the heart defect kills it before it gets to breeding it most definitely won't repeat. If it is a long term problem that kills you any time after you have had the kid but before they have flown away it will lower their chance of survival (down one parent), If it kills you after they have gone, no selection pressure, that's why we will never be immortal"

You're wrong. Again, this is what Darwin said:

"form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations".

How long the offspring will or won't live is a non sequitur. My actions are in clear opposition to Darwin. I am giving my life to save the defective offspring. The offspring is flawed, it damages further offspring if it procreates.

Jura:
"Wrong! The middle insular & the anterior cingulate cortex for instance (see http://www.vislab.ucl.ac.uk/pdf/NeuralBasisOfLove.pdf)."

I know about this study, it is referenced to romantic love not compassionate love. Am I romantically attracted to my dying child? Of course not. Romantic love and compassionate love are two entirely different things. Romantic love may play a role in procreation, although procreation can exist without it. Because you know so little on the subject you saw romantic love and falsely concluded it was the same origin as compassion. No where in the study did the student (it was a student paper) mention compassionate love. Personally I think he avoided it because, as Allman states below, the findings did not distinguish between love and lust sufficiently to satisfy him (Allman).

http://www.forbes.com/maserati/singles2004/cx_mh_0624love_04single.html

"Others are more skeptical. John Allman, a Caltech neuroscientist, says the areas that lit up in Bartels' work are not as specific as he would like. "The problem is distinguishing between love and lust"

Jura:
" I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion."

Not at all. In my early 30's I decided to reason out my life for myself, it was at that time that I formulated my premise that desire had its origin in fear. After I formulated this and other views on compassion I read extensively and found this was a basic belief. The belief that compassion is the proof that something greater than the self exists is mine. I have not found any other view specifically stating it. The development of the hypothesis and the facts I posted are all mine as is the definition of intelligence. Which by the way a PhD Dean has adopted.
 
R
"The first thing you need to do is give me the link."

Jura:
 "I did, before, go back and find it as you obviously didn't read it"

No link there!

R



Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #241 on: July 23, 2016, 03:14:03 AM »
TNR:
"No thanks. I am not interested in discussing the meaning of love with you, anymore than I already have. Your philosophical ramblings demonstrate very little intellectual rigor or consistency."

You'll have to prove those accusations and show me the inconsistency in my statements. You can't simply accuse, you have to validate your position.

Gladly. Give me a week or so. (I wasted too much time in the debate section tonight and will be busy for the next week.) Be careful what you wish for.

Offline Robaroni

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #242 on: July 23, 2016, 12:23:05 PM »
TNR:
"No thanks. I am not interested in discussing the meaning of love with you, anymore than I already have. Your philosophical ramblings demonstrate very little intellectual rigor or consistency."

You'll have to prove those accusations and show me the inconsistency in my statements. You can't simply accuse, you have to validate your position.

Gladly. Give me a week or so. (I wasted too much time in the debate section tonight and will be busy for the next week.) Be careful what you wish for.

You too, along with science I studied ethics and philosophy in college and I graduated summa cum laude. Again, you haven't discussed love!

Utilitarianism anyone? Kant?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 12:41:21 PM by Robaroni »

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 5681
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #243 on: July 23, 2016, 01:04:48 PM »
What science did you study and where?
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

*

Offline Jura-Glenlivet

  • *
  • Posts: 1486
  • Life is meaningless & everything dies.
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #244 on: July 24, 2016, 08:20:40 PM »
R


Jura:
" I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion." That was a quote from you.


R
"The first thing you need to do is give me the link."

Jura:
 "I did, before, go back and find it as you obviously didn't read it"

No link there! Look harder.


Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Offline Robaroni

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #245 on: July 24, 2016, 10:21:36 PM »
R


Jura:
" I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion." That was a quote from you.


R
"The first thing you need to do is give me the link."

Jura:
 "I did, before, go back and find it as you obviously didn't read it"

No link there! Look harder.



Not worth it! Probably just another student paper.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 10:23:50 PM by Robaroni »

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 5681
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #246 on: July 24, 2016, 10:35:33 PM »
R


Jura:
" I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion." That was a quote from you.


R
"The first thing you need to do is give me the link."

Jura:
 "I did, before, go back and find it as you obviously didn't read it"

No link there! Look harder.



Not worth it! Probably just another student paper.

Facts don't care if you are a student or a lying senior citizen.

Where did you study science and what was your degree in?
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #247 on: July 24, 2016, 10:44:55 PM »
R


Jura:
" I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion." That was a quote from you.


R
"The first thing you need to do is give me the link."

Jura:
 "I did, before, go back and find it as you obviously didn't read it"

No link there! Look harder.



Jura:

“The lust system (libido or sex drive), for example, is distinguished by craving for sexual gratification and is largely associated with the hormones estrogen and testosterone in both men and women. The attraction system promotes focused attention, intrusive or obsessive thoughts about the object of desire, feelings of exhilaration, and so on, and is associated primarily with adrenaline, dopamine, and serotonin.”

Focus ;

“In order to explore the neurochemistry of any love-diminishing intervention, we need to begin by understanding love itself from the perspective of the brain. 11 From this perspective, love is a “complex neurobiological phenomenon” that has been wired into our biology by the forces of evolution. “Relying on trust, belief, pleasure, and reward activities” concentrated in the limbic system (Esch and Stefano 2005, 175), love's ability to bring together (and keep together) human beings—from prehistoric times until the present day—has played a key role in the survival of our species. “


OK, where's the http link?

And where's the evolutionary answer to this question I posed:

R
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success. In Darwinian terms the phrase is best understood as "Survival of the form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."

Is the offspring with the defective heart in the "form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations"  No, the defect will repeat in future generations. Let the defective offspring die, don't give your life to save it have other healthier offspring.

So why are individuals willing to die or the dying child? Where's the evolutionary answer?

R


*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 5681
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #248 on: July 24, 2016, 10:49:03 PM »
It's already been shown how having this trait will give a group a greater chance of surviving. It may not be a net benefit in each individual instance, but overall it is.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #249 on: July 24, 2016, 11:05:33 PM »
R


Jura:
" I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion." That was a quote from you.


R
"The first thing you need to do is give me the link."

Jura:
 "I did, before, go back and find it as you obviously didn't read it"

No link there! Look harder.



Not worth it! Probably just another student paper.

Facts don't care if you are a student or a lying senior citizen.

Where did you study science and what was your degree in?

Why do you want to know? You want to discuss the Miller Effect on gate capacitance of 'N' type metal oxide silicon field effect transistors in high side 'H' bridge SMPS applications? I didn't think so!

R

Offline Robaroni

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #250 on: July 24, 2016, 11:18:28 PM »
It's already been shown how having this trait will give a group a greater chance of surviving. It may not be a net benefit in each individual instance, but overall it is.

Wrong!

Having the trait of giving one's life for the weak as many including myself are willing to do to save the sick child is in diametrical opposition to Darwin's hypothesis. It never benefits the group in giving one's life for the weak. It's not possible.

Rama:
"Facts don't care if you are a student or a lying senior citizen."

Science is not capable of absolutes. Individuals interpret "facts" but that doesn't mean because they form an hypothesis it is a "fact".

R

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 5681
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #251 on: July 24, 2016, 11:21:08 PM »
No, I want to see if this bravado is at all relevant. From the content of your pretentious little spiel there, the answer is no.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 5681
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #252 on: July 24, 2016, 11:26:48 PM »
It's already been shown how having this trait will give a group a greater chance of surviving. It may not be a net benefit in each individual instance, but overall it is.

Wrong!

Having the trait of giving one's life for the weak as many including myself are willing to do to save the sick child is in diametrical opposition to Darwin's hypothesis. It never benefits the group in giving one's life for the weak. It's not possible.

This is a straw man. We having been discussing having the trait of "sacrificial love", which can be applied to the strong or the weak.

Quote
Rama:
"Facts don't care if you are a student or a lying senior citizen."

Science is not capable of absolutes. Individuals interpret "facts" but that doesn't mean because they form an hypothesis it is a "fact".

R

Another straw man. Didn't you claim to be a good debater? 
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #253 on: July 24, 2016, 11:47:53 PM »
No, I want to see if this bravado is at all relevant. From the content of your pretentious little spiel there, the answer is no.

And what makes you think you have any right whatsoever to know?

R
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 12:07:41 AM by Robaroni »

Offline Robaroni

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #254 on: July 25, 2016, 12:02:32 AM »
It's already been shown how having this trait will give a group a greater chance of surviving. It may not be a net benefit in each individual instance, but overall it is.

Wrong!

Having the trait of giving one's life for the weak as many including myself are willing to do to save the sick child is in diametrical opposition to Darwin's hypothesis. It never benefits the group in giving one's life for the weak. It's not possible.

This is a straw man. We having been discussing having the trait of "sacrificial love", which can be applied to the strong or the weak.

Quote
Rama:
"Facts don't care if you are a student or a lying senior citizen."

Science is not capable of absolutes. Individuals interpret "facts" but that doesn't mean because they form an hypothesis it is a "fact".

R

Another straw man. Didn't you claim to be a good debater?

Again, you haven't said anything except more innuendos in the hopes of 'sounding' like you actually know something. Believe what you want but I find you dishonest (the "feelings" nonsense, etc) and a very poor critical thinker ("a system of denial....",etc). I haven't been responding to your remarks and that will continue because I don't find them worthy of my time or responses.

R

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 5681
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #255 on: July 25, 2016, 01:37:39 AM »
No, I want to see if this bravado is at all relevant. From the content of your pretentious little spiel there, the answer is no.

And what makes you think you have any right whatsoever to know?

R

Remember when you got all high and mighty on TNR for not telling you where he went to school?  Yeah me too. Good times.

It's already been shown how having this trait will give a group a greater chance of surviving. It may not be a net benefit in each individual instance, but overall it is.

Wrong!

Having the trait of giving one's life for the weak as many including myself are willing to do to save the sick child is in diametrical opposition to Darwin's hypothesis. It never benefits the group in giving one's life for the weak. It's not possible.

This is a straw man. We having been discussing having the trait of "sacrificial love", which can be applied to the strong or the weak.

Quote
Rama:
"Facts don't care if you are a student or a lying senior citizen."

Science is not capable of absolutes. Individuals interpret "facts" but that doesn't mean because they form an hypothesis it is a "fact".

R

Another straw man. Didn't you claim to be a good debater?

Again, you haven't said anything except more innuendos in the hopes of 'sounding' like you actually know something. Believe what you want but I find you dishonest (the "feelings" nonsense, etc) and a very poor critical thinker ("a system of denial....",etc). I haven't been responding to your remarks and that will continue because I don't find them worthy of my time or responses.

R


You are responding a lot for someone who isn't responding. It's almost as if you are doing it instinctually.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

*

Offline Woody

  • *
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #256 on: July 25, 2016, 03:35:02 AM »
I just skimmed this thread.

As for why we feel love there is certainly evidence that it is a desired trait in social species.  It encourages altruism, caring for young and basically getting along.

If you are interested Gregory Berns did an interesting study on love and dogs.  The conclusion is basically to create bonds to promote social comfort and security. The same reason people love each other. The same chemical and brain responses.

I think the only valid argument for love being proof of God is he guided evolution so social animals would feel love.
 

*

Offline Jura-Glenlivet

  • *
  • Posts: 1486
  • Life is meaningless & everything dies.
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #257 on: July 25, 2016, 09:08:27 AM »
R


Jura:
" I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion." That was a quote from you.


R
"The first thing you need to do is give me the link."

Jura:
 "I did, before, go back and find it as you obviously didn't read it"

No link there! Look harder.



Jura:

“The lust system (libido or sex drive), for example, is distinguished by craving for sexual gratification and is largely associated with the hormones estrogen and testosterone in both men and women. The attraction system promotes focused attention, intrusive or obsessive thoughts about the object of desire, feelings of exhilaration, and so on, and is associated primarily with adrenaline, dopamine, and serotonin.”

Focus ;

“In order to explore the neurochemistry of any love-diminishing intervention, we need to begin by understanding love itself from the perspective of the brain. 11 From this perspective, love is a “complex neurobiological phenomenon” that has been wired into our biology by the forces of evolution. “Relying on trust, belief, pleasure, and reward activities” concentrated in the limbic system (Esch and Stefano 2005, 175), love's ability to bring together (and keep together) human beings—from prehistoric times until the present day—has played a key role in the survival of our species. “


OK, where's the http link?

And where's the evolutionary answer to this question I posed:

R
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success. In Darwinian terms the phrase is best understood as "Survival of the form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."

Is the offspring with the defective heart in the "form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations"  No, the defect will repeat in future generations. Let the defective offspring die, don't give your life to save it have other healthier offspring.

So why are individuals willing to die or the dying child? Where's the evolutionary answer?

R

I'm sorry, you were probably an absolute genius in your younger days and your bragging about random micro-fracture  analysis in muon charm feeders would have probably impressed a few people, most however would have smiled politely and called jerk as soon as you left the room. Your debating prowess was almost certainly second to none, the amount of times you dropped mic to a stunned room and left to silence (and a muttered chorus of "dick" ) being legendary.
Now I'm afraid it is time to leave it alone, you ramble and repeat yourself, struggle with concepts new to you and are incapable of sustained bouts of concentration.
All of the above  have been comprehensively and exhaustively (is that a word?) covered, time to get your slippers on and watch some Columbo.
The link by the way was on the previous page where I put "science bit", but you read all that didn't you?   
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Offline Robaroni

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #258 on: July 25, 2016, 11:50:58 AM »
R


Jura:
" I think you just read a book because the best you can do is parrot someone else's opinion." That was a quote from you.


R
"The first thing you need to do is give me the link."

Jura:
 "I did, before, go back and find it as you obviously didn't read it"

No link there! Look harder.



Jura:

“The lust system (libido or sex drive), for example, is distinguished by craving for sexual gratification and is largely associated with the hormones estrogen and testosterone in both men and women. The attraction system promotes focused attention, intrusive or obsessive thoughts about the object of desire, feelings of exhilaration, and so on, and is associated primarily with adrenaline, dopamine, and serotonin.”

Focus ;

“In order to explore the neurochemistry of any love-diminishing intervention, we need to begin by understanding love itself from the perspective of the brain. 11 From this perspective, love is a “complex neurobiological phenomenon” that has been wired into our biology by the forces of evolution. “Relying on trust, belief, pleasure, and reward activities” concentrated in the limbic system (Esch and Stefano 2005, 175), love's ability to bring together (and keep together) human beings—from prehistoric times until the present day—has played a key role in the survival of our species. “


OK, where's the http link?

And where's the evolutionary answer to this question I posed:

R
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_of_the_fittest

"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated from Darwinian evolutionary theory as a way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. The biological concept of fitness is defined as reproductive success. In Darwinian terms the phrase is best understood as "Survival of the form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations."

Is the offspring with the defective heart in the "form that will leave the most copies of itself in successive generations"  No, the defect will repeat in future generations. Let the defective offspring die, don't give your life to save it have other healthier offspring.

So why are individuals willing to die or the dying child? Where's the evolutionary answer?

R

I'm sorry, you were probably an absolute genius in your younger days and your bragging about random micro-fracture  analysis in muon charm feeders would have probably impressed a few people, most however would have smiled politely and called jerk as soon as you left the room. Your debating prowess was almost certainly second to none, the amount of times you dropped mic to a stunned room and left to silence (and a muttered chorus of "dick" ) being legendary.
Now I'm afraid it is time to leave it alone, you ramble and repeat yourself, struggle with concepts new to you and are incapable of sustained bouts of concentration.
All of the above  have been comprehensively and exhaustively (is that a word?) covered, time to get your slippers on and watch some Columbo.
The link by the way was on the previous page where I put "science bit", but you read all that didn't you?   

This is an opinion, you haven't answered my last question and you didn't give me a link to your quote. You wanted to use evolution to disprove my premise but instead I showed that the action is in total opposition to Darwin.
R

ps: You have to give links before of after the statement they apply to, not the previous page or whatever. Also, at this point I'm not involved in your comments especially, you keep saying the same thing so I addressed Darwin's natural selection specifically and showed how it doesn't answer the action I posed.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 01:52:42 PM by Robaroni »

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 5681
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #259 on: July 25, 2016, 01:10:58 PM »
Continuing to misunderstand the concept of "survival of the fittest" is doing you no favors. It is not a concept that applies to simple individual interactions, otherwise you would watch a bird fly in to a window and conclude, like a simpleton, that flight was not beneficial to survival in one's niche. The same goes for your notions of sacrificial love; occasionally yielding false positives is not a good argument against an overall benefit to survival.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.