Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #200 on: July 18, 2016, 12:46:45 PM »
Why would someone have to think through evolution to act on an impulse? I don't have to think through physiology to turn on a light.  I just do it.

You are making no sense now.

It's not an impulse, an impulse is instinctive. You are thinking, contemplating the fate of your loved one and your own fate.

And you do have to think about turning on a light, you're just not aware that you are. First you may be thinking, it's dark or I need more light to read this book. Also your motor skills to turn on the light are driven through your thought process. Can you move your arm without thinking where you want it to go? No!

"You are making no sense now." And spare me this nonsense!

R
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 12:49:19 PM by Robaroni »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #201 on: July 18, 2016, 12:59:32 PM »

It's not an impulse, an impulse is instinctive.

I know, that is why I chose the word.

Quote
You are thinking, contemplating the fate of your loved one and your own fate.

I will need some evidence for this.  Most accounts of people jumping in to urgent live-saving action are accompanied by anecdotes of, "I didn't have time to think, I just did what I had to do" or some variation thereof.

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And you do have to think about turning on a light, you're just not aware that you are. First you may be thinking, it's dark or I need more light to read this book. Also your motor skills to turn on the light are driven through your thought process. Can you move your arm without thinking where you want it to go? No!

Absolutely incorrect.  You can move involving higher brain functions, but it is not required.  Hitting a baseball, one of the pinnacles of hand-eye coordination, happens too fast for you to think about, you have to train a reflex.  I think you need to learn about the reptilian brain and how it can coordinate movement without involving higher brain functions as you are claiming.  Perhaps you should start with the Fight or Flight reaction as it is particularly relevant here.

"You are making no sense now." And spare me this nonsense!

R
[/quote]
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #202 on: July 18, 2016, 01:38:05 PM »

It's not an impulse, an impulse is instinctive.

I know, that is why I chose the word.

Quote
You are thinking, contemplating the fate of your loved one and your own fate.

I will need some evidence for this.  Most accounts of people jumping in to urgent live-saving action are accompanied by anecdotes of, "I didn't have time to think, I just did what I had to do" or some variation thereof.

Quote
And you do have to think about turning on a light, you're just not aware that you are. First you may be thinking, it's dark or I need more light to read this book. Also your motor skills to turn on the light are driven through your thought process. Can you move your arm without thinking where you want it to go? No!

Absolutely incorrect.  You can move involving higher brain functions, but it is not required.  Hitting a baseball, one of the pinnacles of hand-eye coordination, happens too fast for you to think about, you have to train a reflex.  I think you need to learn about the reptilian brain and how it can coordinate movement without involving higher brain functions as you are claiming.  Perhaps you should start with the Fight or Flight reaction as it is particularly relevant here.

"You are making no sense now." And spare me this nonsense!

R
[/quote]

Rama Set:
"I will need some evidence for this.  Most accounts of people jumping in to urgent live-saving action are accompanied by anecdotes of, "I didn't have time to think, I just did what I had to do" or some variation thereof."

That's not what's happening, your loved one is dying, you can save them with your organ that will cost you your life. It's not instinctive!

And I did save someone! I was keenly aware of the danger I was in, I was thinking what is the best way to proceed, what do I do next. If anything, my senses and thinking were more acute.

Someone jumps in front of a train to save someone else. Why do they do it? Who cares, let them die, better them than me! Save the group? Forget the group, who cares about some nebulous group!

Turning on the light requires thinking, I'm having trouble seeing the text I need to turn on the light, is this the light with the switch on the left or right, which way should I move my arm? You're not hitting a baseball. You're thinking should I turn on the light by the chair or the overhead light?

You're thinking my loved one is dying I can save them with my organ at the expense of my own life. You know completely what's going on. I would give my life, I know from experience.

R

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #203 on: July 18, 2016, 02:09:38 PM »
Rama Set:
"I will need some evidence for this.  Most accounts of people jumping in to urgent live-saving action are accompanied by anecdotes of, "I didn't have time to think, I just did what I had to do" or some variation thereof."

That's not what's happening, your loved one is dying, you can save them with your organ that will cost you your life. It's not instinctive!

This is not what was being discussed previously.  We were discussing people sacrificing their lives in a snap decision.  Organ donation is not performed if it will be fatal to the donor, so your situation is not even applicable.

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And I did save someone! I was keenly aware of the danger I was in, I was thinking what is the best way to proceed, what do I do next. If anything, my senses and thinking were more acute.

Please tell me what you did in detail.

Quote
Someone jumps in front of a train to save someone else. Why do they do it? Who cares, let them die, better them than me! Save the group? Forget the group, who cares about some nebulous group!

Humans care about some nebulous group.  This is not in dispute.  You are behaving as if this has not all been addressed ad nauseam.

Quote
Turning on the light requires thinking, I'm having trouble seeing the text I need to turn on the light, is this the light with the switch on the left or right, which way should I move my arm? You're not hitting a baseball. You're thinking should I turn on the light by the chair or the overhead light?

I don't think about how I am turning on a light very often, I just reach up and do it, without premeditation.

Quote
You're thinking my loved one is dying I can save them with my organ at the expense of my own life. You know completely what's going on. I would give my life, I know from experience.

So what?  Even if fatal organ donations happened (they don't), all of this has been plausibly explained by Totesnotreptilian.  You seem utterly unable to address the substance of what he said.  Please address what he outlined, substantively, so this conversation can actually progress.
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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #204 on: July 18, 2016, 02:32:52 PM »

 As you seem to have only a fundamentalist primary school grade education in evolution, and appear incapable of reading anything we put, or have any inclination in upgrading I see little point in continuing this line of debate.

From all you have said (over & over) you clearly feel you have hit on an important deal breaking revelation that no one else has come upon, that in some way circumvents all evolutionary arguments. That’s based on love.

You haven’t, it doesn’t.


You have a view that atheists rely on science for their non-belief in a deity, and are unable to comprehend that people actually look at the world and see no (zero, zip, zilch, nada) proof or need, what so ever of the said divine being/force or plan.

What about you?

Why so coy? What do you actually believe in? 
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #205 on: July 18, 2016, 10:03:12 PM »
Rama Set:
"I will need some evidence for this.  Most accounts of people jumping in to urgent live-saving action are accompanied by anecdotes of, "I didn't have time to think, I just did what I had to do" or some variation thereof."

That's not what's happening, your loved one is dying, you can save them with your organ that will cost you your life. It's not instinctive!

This is not what was being discussed previously.  We were discussing people sacrificing their lives in a snap decision.  Organ donation is not performed if it will be fatal to the donor, so your situation is not even applicable.

Quote
And I did save someone! I was keenly aware of the danger I was in, I was thinking what is the best way to proceed, what do I do next. If anything, my senses and thinking were more acute.

Please tell me what you did in detail.

Quote
Someone jumps in front of a train to save someone else. Why do they do it? Who cares, let them die, better them than me! Save the group? Forget the group, who cares about some nebulous group!

Humans care about some nebulous group.  This is not in dispute.  You are behaving as if this has not all been addressed ad nauseam.

Quote
Turning on the light requires thinking, I'm having trouble seeing the text I need to turn on the light, is this the light with the switch on the left or right, which way should I move my arm? You're not hitting a baseball. You're thinking should I turn on the light by the chair or the overhead light?

I don't think about how I am turning on a light very often, I just reach up and do it, without premeditation.

Quote
You're thinking my loved one is dying I can save them with my organ at the expense of my own life. You know completely what's going on. I would give my life, I know from experience.

So what?  Even if fatal organ donations happened (they don't), all of this has been plausibly explained by Totesnotreptilian.  You seem utterly unable to address the substance of what he said.  Please address what he outlined, substantively, so this conversation can actually progress.

Go look at my original statement, it's exactly what I asked!

Rama Set:
"Most accounts of people jumping in to urgent live-saving action are accompanied by anecdotes of, "I didn't have time to think, I just did what I had to do" or some variation thereof."

"Humans care about some nebulous group.  This is not in dispute."

So which is it. We save someone and didn't have time to think or we did it because we care about some nebulous group?

Personally when I held the hand of my dying mother the last thing I thought about was a group, a species or anything else. Did you ever save a life? I gave someone CPR who dropped dead in front of me, saving her life. Never gave any group or species a thought. I did it out of compassion, out of love.

You reach for a light for what reason? You're thinking, the room is dark, I can't see what I'm doing or whatever. You don't reach to turn on a light in broad daylight.

You swing at a baseball, is it in the strike zone, it it a curve that I should drop my bat lower for, a fast ball? That's what you're thinking.

Apparently you missed my response to TNR:

"Your loved one is dying are you thinking about evolution, about group dynamics? Are you thinking if I let this weak loved one die I can have more healthier loved ones? No, are you instinctively following some esoteric science man can't explain? No, there's no instinct involved, we already went through this. You're contemplating - thinking!
Are you thinking that you will be dead and if you are an atheist that life will be completely over? Yes!

So where's the science to justify it?"

So Rama where's the science to justify it?

What is you life worth if you are not loved? What's your answer? Go into an institution, talk to an analyst and ask how people who think they are not loved act. Do you think they are contemplating the well being of the group? Not at all.

R






Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #206 on: July 18, 2016, 10:14:00 PM »

 As you seem to have only a fundamentalist primary school grade education in evolution, and appear incapable of reading anything we put, or have any inclination in upgrading I see little point in continuing this line of debate.

From all you have said (over & over) you clearly feel you have hit on an important deal breaking revelation that no one else has come upon, that in some way circumvents all evolutionary arguments. That’s based on love.

You haven’t, it doesn’t.


You have a view that atheists rely on science for their non-belief in a deity, and are unable to comprehend that people actually look at the world and see no (zero, zip, zilch, nada) proof or need, what so ever of the said divine being/force or plan.

What about you?

Why so coy? What do you actually believe in?

I told you what I believe.

If not for science then what is the justification for your atheism?

Did evolution answer why I give my life for my dying loved one knowing my life is completely over? Why do it, let the loved one die, who cares, why should I die attempting to save a sick individual? I save my loved one because I'm thinking about the group? Hardly but that the best you can come up with. So it's not my education it's your response that's lacking.

Do you love? Why or why not? Have you even asked yourself that question? What does love mean to you? You want to give me evolution?

R

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #207 on: July 18, 2016, 10:45:15 PM »
Go look at my original statement.

Your original statement deals with fear, hate, organized religion and that the proof of God is love. Nothing about self-sacrifice much less organ donation.

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Rama Set:
"Most accounts of people jumping in to urgent live-saving action are accompanied by anecdotes of, "I didn't have time to think, I just did what I had to do" or some variation thereof."

"Humans care about some nebulous group.  This is not in dispute."

So which is it. We save someone and didn't have time to think or we did it because we care about some nebulous group?

These ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Quote
Personally when I held the hand of my dying mother the last thing I thought about was a group, a species or anything else. Did you ever save a life? I gave someone CPR who dropped dead in front of me, saving her life. Never gave any group or species a thought. I did it out of compassion, out of love.

Cool story. What has been said repeatedly is that your compassion is something that has been nurtured by evolution. It plausibly explains everything you describe and so dismisses your arguments.

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You reach for a light for what reason? You're thinking, the room is dark, I can't see what I'm doing or whatever. You don't reach to turn on a light in broad daylight.

I do that sometimes, because I am not thinking.

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You swing at a baseball, is it in the strike zone, it it a curve that I should drop my bat lower for, a fast ball? That's what you're thinking.

You obviously have no knowledge of baseball. There is not enough time to think the problem through to that extent. You have to decide before the ball is released from the pitchers hand if you are going to swing or not. From there it is all instinct.

Quote
Apparently you missed my response to TNR:

"Your loved one is dying are you thinking about evolution, about group dynamics? Are you thinking if I let this weak loved one die I can have more healthier loved ones? No, are you instinctively following some esoteric science man can't explain? No, there's no instinct involved, we already went through this. You're contemplating - thinking!
Are you thinking that you will be dead and if you are an atheist that life will be completely over? Yes!

So where's the science to justify it?"

No I did not, but you have most assuredly ignored his responses to you.

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So Rama where's the science to justify it?

Some of it is in this very thread!  You haven't rebutted any of it, only equivocated around the words "beneficial", "reciprocate" and "good".

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What is you life worth if you are not loved? What's your answer? Go into an institution, talk to an analyst and ask how people who think they are not loved act. Do you think they are contemplating the well being of the group? Not at all.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand, however interesting the topic is.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 10:59:09 PM by Rama Set »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #208 on: July 19, 2016, 01:49:25 PM »
I told you what I believe.

If not for science then what is the justification for your atheism?

Did evolution answer why I give my life for my dying loved one knowing my life is completely over? Why do it, let the loved one die, who cares, why should I die attempting to save a sick individual?

The answer is still that on the whole, this sort of altruism promotes the survival of the group. We are talking in statistics, not absolutes.

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I save my loved one because I'm thinking about the group? Hardly but that the best you can come up with. So it's not my education it's your response that's lacking.

No one has ever said "you are thinking of the group" at the time of giving one's life, although it could be true. The thoughts do not have to coincide with the impact that the reciprocity has.

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Do you love? Why or why not? Have you even asked yourself that question? What does love mean to you? You want to give me evolution?

The spiritual and subjective experience of love is different than the objective reality of love. You know your heart doesn't literally break?

You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #209 on: July 19, 2016, 01:52:15 PM »
Rama Set,
 I'll bet you don't even have a girlfriend! You have no idea what it is to reach across a table in your favorite restaurant year after year to hold the hand that has brought your more pure joy in your life than you could possibly imagine or to look into the sparkling eyes of a child that loves you unconditionally. To hold a loved one in your arms as the life ebbs out of them. You have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, what anything I've just said means.

You have no college degree and no expertise in any field and anything I can get from you or for that matter, Jura or TNR I can get from a Google search I've already done. Most of your posts just parrot someone else and when you try to be original you fall miserably on your face. Disingenuously asking me if I have "feelings" before giving me a flawed definition of love that requires zero feelings to understand. Making self contradictory statements that you need to be shown the error of more than once and knowing so little about what it means to love that you have no idea it can never be a trade.

Your last post is just more of your evasive, inexperienced, nonsense.

I wonder if any of you have ever had a long term loving relationship, it doesn't seem so from your responses. I doubt it's possible for any of you to see the magnitude of love and compassion, it's simply out of your realm of experience. You are in a small minority, the majority of individuals asked why they give their life for their loved one say it's out of their immense love.



It's my fault, what a waste of my time!

R

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #210 on: July 19, 2016, 02:04:30 PM »
I am not sure why you resorted to this but surely you must know this only helps us and hinders you.
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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #211 on: July 19, 2016, 03:00:50 PM »
If Love is proof of gods’ existence and has nothing to do with evolution how come biologists can turn it on or off with drugs.

The Science;

In terms of natural selection, the human adult pair bond seems to have developed from earlier structures involved in sustaining the attachment between mothers and their infants (Young 2009). This “adaptive workaround” (Eastwick 2009) may have been driven by the heightened importance—over generations of human evolution—of paternal investment in offspring with increasingly large and more complex cerebrums. These burgeoning baby brains took longer to reach maturity than their more ancestral counterparts, leaving the infant vulnerable and underdeveloped for extended periods of time. If parents fell in love and remained together at least during this fragile period for their offspring, their own genetic fitness would be enhanced (Fisher 1992).

Underlying human love, then, is a set of basic brain systems for lust, attraction, and attachment that have evolved among mammals. Helen Fisher and her colleagues (Fisher 1998; Fisher et al. 2002) have argued that the lust system promotes mating with a range of promising partners; the attraction system guides us to choose and prefer a particular partner; and the attachment system fosters long-term bonding, encouraging couples to cooperate and stay together until their parental duties have been discharged. These universal systems are hypothesized to form a biological foundation on which the cultural and individual variants of sexual, romantic, and longer term love are built (Gottschall and Nordlund 2006; Jankowiak and Fischer 1992).

From this perspective, love is a “complex neurobiological phenomenon” that has been wired into our biology by the forces of evolution. “Relying on trust, belief, pleasure, and reward activities” concentrated in the limbic system (Esch and Stefano 2005, 175), love's ability to bring together (and keep together) human beings—from prehistoric times until the present day—has played a key role in the survival of our species.
From the “American journal of bioethics” If I Could Just Stop Loving You: Anti-Love Biotechnology and the Ethics of a Chemical Breakup

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15265161.2013.839752

Albeit in it’s infancy, stifling feelings of love in people with dangerous fixations (abusive partners, paedophiles and other paraphilia’s) as well as more questionable uses (“fixing” homosexuality and decreasing lust in Ultraorthodox Jewish students) is a thing.
And this is science that has turned famously monogamous prairie voles, polygamous by blocking oxytocin and reduced stress levels in those that had lost long term partners by blocking corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF). 
 (see also https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129564-600-cure-for-love-chemical-cures-for-the-lovesick).


Now I know you are going to go for the phrases “seems to” etc but this is the language of real seekers of knowledge, peer reviewed and not a hunch merchant such as yourself.

(FYI. Rama is a sex-bomb who has to beat them off with a stick)

« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 03:44:17 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #212 on: July 19, 2016, 06:32:10 PM »
These same arguments again? Whelp... 6th... time's a charm!

Please, not again! I went through your hypothetical story, most of it is symbiotic. The last part assumes science can determine good!

Beneficial is a relative term, like good.

If I take this pill will it be beneficial? Science can tell us the theory behind the chemical reaction in our bodies but it can't tell us if the result is beneficial or good. That's a product of human subjectivity. I feel 'good' from the pills I took.

This has nothing to do with anything subjective, or with what science can "know". If a trait (like love) results in more species with that trait surviving, then it is beneficial to the survival of the speciese as a whole. That's all there is to it. If a trait causes an individual to sacrifice himself so that his children can survive, then that trait causes that individual's genetics to be passed on. This really is not up for debate. It's evolution 101. If you still don't understand, read an intro to evolution book.

Quote
Again, Give me the science showing that man will die if he doesn't love.

No. That is not how evolution works. Whoever told you that a trait must be vital for survival for it to be promoted by evolution was lying to you. The trait only has to be slightly beneficial to the species as a whole. Again, not up for debate. Evolution 101. If you disagree, go read any intro to evolution book.

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Give me the science to justify dying to save my loved one. I'm dead, no benefit to me, no material me (no science, science deals in the material only) and no ability for science to judge if my action is good for the group.

Clearly you don't have the slightest idea how evolution works. Seriously, just go read an intro to evolution book. Evolution doesn't care about the survival of an individual. It cares about the survival of the group as a whole. More survivors => more chance to pass on the group's genetics => more people with those genes. It is as simple as that. Sacrificing oneself for your tribe or your children allows THEM to pass on your genes for you.

Quote
You keep looking to evolution for your answer, I don't care what science you use but you haven't answered anything really.

No, I am not looking to evolution for any answers. I'm not even trying to prove that evolution is true. I am merely showing how it is plausible, which is enough to counter your original argument.

And Jura thinks I'm the robot!

Nonsense!
Your loved one is dying are you thinking about evolution, about group dynamics? Are you thinking if I let this weak loved one die I can have more healthier loved ones? No, are you instinctively following some esoteric science man can't explain? No, there's no instinct involved, we already went through this. You're contemplating - thinking!
Are you thinking that you will be dead and if you are an atheist that life will be completely over? Yes!

So where's the science to justify it?

R

This doesn't come even remotely close to addressing anything I said. It doesn't matter what the person was thinking when he sacrificed himself. It doesn't matter why he sacrificed himself. The only thing that matters is the result. Storytime #2:

Tribe A: members have the "sacrificial love" character trait.
Tribe B: members don't have "sacrificial love" character trait.

Giant lion attacks both tribes.

Tribe B: Every man for himself. Everyone scatters. Lion hunts them all down individually in the night.

Tribe A: One person jumps on the lion. He knows he will die, but this gives the rest of the tribe time to stab the lion with spears.

Tribe A survives, tribe B doesn't. Tribe A passes on their "sacrificial love" trait to the next generation. Therefore, "sacrificial love" has an evolutionary advantage. Did it matter what the sacrificial person was thinking? No, it did not. All that mattered was the result. My arguments stand.

As to your tirade about how much more experience you have with love than all of us... You just got onto me for indirectly comparing my own intelligence to others. A bit hypocritical, don't you think?

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #213 on: July 20, 2016, 01:44:09 AM »
Tribe Omega: One person jumps on the lion.



Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls! 
watch?v=xhcVJcINzn8

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #214 on: July 20, 2016, 02:08:00 AM »
Tribe Omega: One person jumps on the lion.

Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls!

What on earth are you talking about?

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #215 on: July 20, 2016, 09:33:24 AM »
Tribe Omega: One person jumps on the lion.

Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls!

What on earth are you talking about?

He doesn't have the heart, and certainly not the mind to stick around for debate, so he just catcalls from the sidelines and then buggers off.

I think we have damaged Robi the Bot
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #216 on: July 20, 2016, 05:13:41 PM »
You are full of shit with your shitty hypotheticals. 
Your entire hypothetical ONLY makes sense if it assumes telepathic ability ---- in which case, your hypothetical is redundant. 


Tribe A: members have the "sacrificial love" character trait.
How do you know that? 
Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls! 

Tribe B: members don't have "sacrificial love" character trait.
How do you know that? 
Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls! 

Tribe B: Every man for himself.
How do you know that? 
Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls! 

Tribe A: One person jumps on the lion.
You have no idea why. 
Oh, I get it! 
You can read hearts, minds and souls! 
watch?v=xhcVJcINzn8

Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #217 on: July 20, 2016, 05:37:43 PM »
Dude... Tribe A and Tribe B, and their specified traits are the given premise. Their following actions are just a plausible result of the premise. The point is to illustrate the mechanism of evolution.

You know they don't actually exist, right? It's a hypothetical situation.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #218 on: July 20, 2016, 08:41:06 PM »
You are full of shit with your shitty hypotheticals. 




Such anger!

Try reasoned debate, you may learn something.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Offline Robaroni

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Re: What is the problem with Atheism?
« Reply #219 on: July 20, 2016, 11:50:07 PM »
If Love is proof of gods’ existence and has nothing to do with evolution how come biologists can turn it on or off with drugs.

The Science;

In terms of natural selection, the human adult pair bond seems to have developed from earlier structures involved in sustaining the attachment between mothers and their infants (Young 2009). This “adaptive workaround” (Eastwick 2009) may have been driven by the heightened importance—over generations of human evolution—of paternal investment in offspring with increasingly large and more complex cerebrums. These burgeoning baby brains took longer to reach maturity than their more ancestral counterparts, leaving the infant vulnerable and underdeveloped for extended periods of time. If parents fell in love and remained together at least during this fragile period for their offspring, their own genetic fitness would be enhanced (Fisher 1992).

Underlying human love, then, is a set of basic brain systems for lust, attraction, and attachment that have evolved among mammals. Helen Fisher and her colleagues (Fisher 1998; Fisher et al. 2002) have argued that the lust system promotes mating with a range of promising partners; the attraction system guides us to choose and prefer a particular partner; and the attachment system fosters long-term bonding, encouraging couples to cooperate and stay together until their parental duties have been discharged. These universal systems are hypothesized to form a biological foundation on which the cultural and individual variants of sexual, romantic, and longer term love are built (Gottschall and Nordlund 2006; Jankowiak and Fischer 1992).

From this perspective, love is a “complex neurobiological phenomenon” that has been wired into our biology by the forces of evolution. “Relying on trust, belief, pleasure, and reward activities” concentrated in the limbic system (Esch and Stefano 2005, 175), love's ability to bring together (and keep together) human beings—from prehistoric times until the present day—has played a key role in the survival of our species.
From the “American journal of bioethics” If I Could Just Stop Loving You: Anti-Love Biotechnology and the Ethics of a Chemical Breakup

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15265161.2013.839752

Albeit in it’s infancy, stifling feelings of love in people with dangerous fixations (abusive partners, paedophiles and other paraphilia’s) as well as more questionable uses (“fixing” homosexuality and decreasing lust in Ultraorthodox Jewish students) is a thing.
And this is science that has turned famously monogamous prairie voles, polygamous by blocking oxytocin and reduced stress levels in those that had lost long term partners by blocking corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF). 
 (see also https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129564-600-cure-for-love-chemical-cures-for-the-lovesick).


Now I know you are going to go for the phrases “seems to” etc but this is the language of real seekers of knowledge, peer reviewed and not a hunch merchant such as yourself.

(FYI. Rama is a sex-bomb who has to beat them off with a stick)

"Underlying human love, then, is a set of basic brain systems for lust, attraction, and attachment that have evolved among mammals."

The root of lust is fear. In the form of desire, we are unfulfilled, incomplete - we desire. Lust is about the self. Love is never about the self, love is never fear. I give my life for my dying child, is it lust? No! Attraction? Is that what is driving our actions when we give our life? No.

Are we acting out of some nebulous evolutionary drive? No, we knowingly give our life for our dying child. We know exactly what is happening. Does an animal know what it means to face eternal nothingness? We have no idea, what is the animal thinking? We don't know. We do know that man has those capacities.

"FYI. Rama is a sex-bomb who has to beat them off with a stick."
Maybe you two should get together.

New pic, same frown.

R