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Offline junker

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #160 on: September 05, 2019, 08:29:47 PM »
Oh hey Zoe Quinn drove a guy to suicide.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #161 on: September 05, 2019, 08:54:04 PM »
Oh hey Zoe Quinn drove a guy to suicide.
Shocking. It's almost as if glorifying an actual supervillain was not a good idea.
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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #162 on: September 05, 2019, 10:53:03 PM »
Nobody is responsible for a suicide beyond the person who commits it. Suicide is not a rational, calculated act that stable people decide on after they sit down at a table and work through all the facts and figures like a robot and arrive at the most objectively logical conclusion. It's something that troubled, stressed people do, and to extend responsibility for the decisions of a struggling mind to others is clearly wrong. Whether the allegations against Alec Holowka were entirely true, all bitter lies, or somewhere in between (and for what it's worth, the dev team that cut ties with him considered the allegations corroborated by more people than just Quinn), suicide was not the logical or "expected" response to his situation. Neither his career nor his life was over. He had options to pick up the pieces and move on. Instead, undoubtedly because his mind was in the state it was, he chose to kill himself. I'm not trying to drag him through the mud for this. Suicide victims deserve sympathy, and I'm of the firm opinion that people who bash them for being "selfish" or "uncaring" can go fuck themselves with a cactus. I'm only arguing that apportioning blame for causing an irrational act is wrong.
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Offline junker

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #163 on: September 05, 2019, 11:11:40 PM »
Nobody is responsible for a suicide beyond the person who commits it.

This is possibly the most retarded thing you have ever said. And that is quite the accomplishment.

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #164 on: September 05, 2019, 11:29:03 PM »
Nobody is responsible for a suicide beyond the person who commits it.

This is possibly the most retarded thing you have ever said. And that is quite the accomplishment.

It's like you read "Nobody is responsible for a suicide beyond the person who commits it." And then stopped reading after that.

Literally no one is responsible for the ultimate act other than the actor though myriad outside and inside forces can lead to one wishing to commit that ultimate act.

On the surface, it seems like an ex girlfriend accused her former boyfriend of essentially illegal acts via twitter (which is weird, why not go to the police?), the accused' workmates basically agreed that he was capable of such deeds and ousted him and then he ran off an killed himself.

Lot's of folks have been through similar I imagine but didn't put the suicide coda on it. That was all him. I was reading that his sister said he suffered from bi-polar, or depression or some such, which puts him squarely into the bullseye of a suicide solution given the circumstances. But again, his final act was in his choosing, others didn't make it for him.
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Offline junker

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #165 on: September 06, 2019, 12:33:42 AM »
Nobody is responsible for a suicide beyond the person who commits it.

This is possibly the most retarded thing you have ever said. And that is quite the accomplishment.

It's like you read "Nobody is responsible for a suicide beyond the person who commits it." And then stopped reading after that.

Literally no one is responsible for the ultimate act other than the actor though myriad outside and inside forces can lead to one wishing to commit that ultimate act.

On the surface, it seems like an ex girlfriend accused her former boyfriend of essentially illegal acts via twitter (which is weird, why not go to the police?), the accused' workmates basically agreed that he was capable of such deeds and ousted him and then he ran off an killed himself.

Lot's of folks have been through similar I imagine but didn't put the suicide coda on it. That was all him. I was reading that his sister said he suffered from bi-polar, or depression or some such, which puts him squarely into the bullseye of a suicide solution given the circumstances. But again, his final act was in his choosing, others didn't make it for him.

Cool story.

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #166 on: September 06, 2019, 01:06:53 AM »
Nice argument, junker.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #167 on: September 06, 2019, 01:50:28 AM »
It's like you read "Nobody is responsible for a suicide beyond the person who commits it." And then stopped reading after that.

Literally no one is responsible for the ultimate act other than the actor though myriad outside and inside forces can lead to one wishing to commit that ultimate act.

On the surface, it seems like an ex girlfriend accused her former boyfriend of essentially illegal acts via twitter (which is weird, why not go to the police?), the accused' workmates basically agreed that he was capable of such deeds and ousted him and then he ran off an killed himself.

Lot's of folks have been through similar I imagine but didn't put the suicide coda on it. That was all him. I was reading that his sister said he suffered from bi-polar, or depression or some such, which puts him squarely into the bullseye of a suicide solution given the circumstances. But again, his final act was in his choosing, others didn't make it for him.

This isn't remotely true. You can in fact push others to commit suicide and have it be your fault. The US justice system simply doesn't agree with your "suicide is only the fault of the victim" tirade.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michelle-carter-convicted-texting-suicide-case-sentenced-15-months-jail-n789276

The idea that you can't affect the mental state of others to the point of suicide is a wholly ignorant one that I'm glad seems contained to people such as yourself and Saddam. What you do and say does in fact have a very real effect on people. If that effect is that they run and kill themselves, yes, yes it is in fact your fault and you should face some punishment for causing it.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 01:52:51 AM by Rushy »

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Online honk

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #168 on: September 06, 2019, 05:15:24 AM »
It's like you read "Nobody is responsible for a suicide beyond the person who commits it." And then stopped reading after that.

Literally no one is responsible for the ultimate act other than the actor though myriad outside and inside forces can lead to one wishing to commit that ultimate act.

On the surface, it seems like an ex girlfriend accused her former boyfriend of essentially illegal acts via twitter (which is weird, why not go to the police?), the accused' workmates basically agreed that he was capable of such deeds and ousted him and then he ran off an killed himself.

Lot's of folks have been through similar I imagine but didn't put the suicide coda on it. That was all him. I was reading that his sister said he suffered from bi-polar, or depression or some such, which puts him squarely into the bullseye of a suicide solution given the circumstances. But again, his final act was in his choosing, others didn't make it for him.

This isn't remotely true. You can in fact push others to commit suicide and have it be your fault. The US justice system simply doesn't agree with your "suicide is only the fault of the victim" tirade.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michelle-carter-convicted-texting-suicide-case-sentenced-15-months-jail-n789276

The idea that you can't affect the mental state of others to the point of suicide is a wholly ignorant one that I'm glad seems contained to people such as yourself and Saddam. What you do and say does in fact have a very real effect on people. If that effect is that they run and kill themselves, yes, yes it is in fact your fault and you should face some punishment for causing it.

This is a clumsy strawman and barely deserves a response. We're talking about moral responsibility, not causality. Causing a suicide does not make you responsible for one. If you break up with your girlfriend and she then kills herself, you have caused her suicide, but you're not responsible for it. If you fire a troublesome employee and he then kills himself, you have caused his suicide, but you're not responsible for it. If you arrest a criminal and he hangs himself in jail, you have caused his suicide, but you're not responsible for it. And while the case you're citing is certainly egregious enough for me to grant that I shouldn't really say never, that girl was convicted because she had deliberately encouraged the suicide, and most critically, demanded that he continue with his attempt when he was trying to back out of it. It wasn't for simply causing his suicide.

Also, reals>feels js
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 02:15:46 AM by honk »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #169 on: September 06, 2019, 09:07:41 AM »
We're talking about moral responsibility, not causality.
Are we? All junker said was "Oh hey Zoe Quinn drove a guy to suicide." That's an implication of a causal relation, one that appears to be quite likely when you consider the evidence.

"Moral responsibility" is a bad meme - morality is entirely subjective, and I doubt ZQ will be too worried about destroying another life.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #170 on: September 06, 2019, 06:05:42 PM »
This is a clumsy strawman and barely deserves a response.

After reading your post, I realized this was the title of your paragraph and not directed at me.

We're talking about moral responsibility, not causality.

What's the difference? Would you not be morally responsible for something you caused to happen?

Causing a suicide does not make you responsible for one.

It literally does.

If you break up with your girlfriend and she then kills herself, you have caused her suicide, but you're not responsible for it. If you fire a troublesome employee and he then kills himself, you have caused his suicide, but you're not responsible for it. If you arrest a criminal and he hangs himself in jail, you have caused his suicide, but you're not responsible for it. And while the case you're citing is certainly egregious enough for me to grant that I shouldn't really say never, that girl was convicted because she had deliberately encouraged the suicide, and most critically demanding that he continue with his attempt when he was trying to back out of it. It wasn't for simply causing his suicide.

Also, reals>feels js

Maybe you're not legally responsible in all those cases, but from a moral standpoint you absolutely are responsible for it in some cases. If someone you know is close to killing themselves and you don't try to aid them, then yes, your action/inaction contributed to it happening. Believe it or not we are responsible for other people's well being. Your insistence on that you can somehow emotionally and morally separate your own actions and their impact on others is disturbing to say the least.

And yes, a woman falsely accusing a man of sexual abuse leading to his suicide absolutely pins the moral blame on her.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 06:07:40 PM by Rushy »

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #171 on: September 06, 2019, 07:03:49 PM »
And yes, a woman falsely accusing a man of sexual abuse leading to his suicide absolutely pins the moral blame on her.

Do we know it was a false accusation? And do we know that she knew such an accusation, false or otherwise, would cause him to commit suicide?
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #172 on: September 06, 2019, 08:06:41 PM »
Do we know it was a false accusation?

A man is innocent until proven guilty. An accusation is false until proven to be true. It doesn't sit in a nebulous wonderland of "maybe." To expand on this, if I accuse you, right now, of sexually assaulting me, is it false? To say "well we don't know for certain, it might be true!" is a dangerous road to base our opinions on. Anyone can accuse any other person of anything at any time. It's only logical to assume that without proof, an accusation is false.

It's interesting that she pursued social attacks against this man rather than legal ones.

And do we know that she knew such an accusation, false or otherwise, would cause him to commit suicide?

Her knowledge of the result doesn't impact whether or not the result occurred. If I tell you to kill yourself and then you do, claiming I didn't know you would actually do it is irrelevant. She certainly didn't wish him any good fortune, that's for sure.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 08:08:52 PM by Rushy »

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #173 on: September 06, 2019, 08:10:35 PM »
Do we know it was a false accusation?
If we apply due process - sort of. No evidence has been presented, thus we should presume innocence. If you want for it to be viewed as a true accusation, all that's needed is some evidence.

Of course, this doesn't preclude modern woke people from abusing the everliving shit out of the accused.
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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #174 on: September 06, 2019, 10:09:44 PM »
Do we know it was a false accusation?

A man is innocent until proven guilty. An accusation is false until proven to be true. It doesn't sit in a nebulous wonderland of "maybe." To expand on this, if I accuse you, right now, of sexually assaulting me, is it false? To say "well we don't know for certain, it might be true!" is a dangerous road to base our opinions on. Anyone can accuse any other person of anything at any time. It's only logical to assume that without proof, an accusation is false.

I guess that's why I prefer the word 'alleged' to 'false' or 'true'.

It's interesting that she pursued social attacks against this man rather than legal ones.
any time. It's only logical to assume that without proof, an accusation is false.

I agree and referenced this aspect before. Why would someone throw these kinds of allegations up into the twittersphere and not go to the cops? Also, why was his studio so quick to throw him under the bus and back Quinn?

And do we know that she knew such an accusation, false or otherwise, would cause him to commit suicide?

Her knowledge of the result doesn't impact whether or not the result occurred. If I tell you to kill yourself and then you do, claiming I didn't know you would actually do it is irrelevant. She certainly didn't wish him any good fortune, that's for sure.

See, I think this is the real slippery slope. Just because you don't wish someone good fortune doesn't mean you want them dead and doesn't mean that if they decide to kill themselves you are responsible for it. Granted, I don't really know where the slope begins or ends. In this particular case, we don't know what caused him to commit suicide. Was it the allegations? Or maybe it was because 2 days later when his studio announced:

"August 28: The colleagues with whom Holowka developed his last hit game “cut ties” with him and cancel his current project after some “agonizing consideration.”

A lengthy Reddit post from his Night in the Woods coworkers emphasizes that the team is “heartbroken” but sheds little specific light. “Enough of the allegations are extremely plausible,” writes Scott Benson, adding that “the things that Alec did during the bad times were worse than we knew.”

Probably a combination of things. But to your argument, are the folks at his studio "responsible" for his suicide as well? They sided with Quinn, Scott Benson essentially stated that plain as day.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #175 on: September 08, 2019, 01:21:40 AM »
See, I think this is the real slippery slope. Just because you don't wish someone good fortune doesn't mean you want them dead and doesn't mean that if they decide to kill themselves you are responsible for it. Granted, I don't really know where the slope begins or ends. In this particular case, we don't know what caused him to commit suicide. Was it the allegations? Or maybe it was because 2 days later when his studio announced:

"August 28: The colleagues with whom Holowka developed his last hit game “cut ties” with him and cancel his current project after some “agonizing consideration.”

A lengthy Reddit post from his Night in the Woods coworkers emphasizes that the team is “heartbroken” but sheds little specific light. “Enough of the allegations are extremely plausible,” writes Scott Benson, adding that “the things that Alec did during the bad times were worse than we knew.”

It's doubtful she went out of her way hoping he'd kill himself (but it's not entirely out of the question, either). I'm not saying she was legally responsible for his death, but to say she isn't morally responsible for it (like Saddam was saying) is just outright wrong. If you attack someone's social status you can't act surprised if it's actually effective.


Probably a combination of things. But to your argument, are the folks at his studio "responsible" for his suicide as well? They sided with Quinn, Scott Benson essentially stated that plain as day.

They are. Businesses that are firing people merely for being accused of something are morally responsible for adding to a reprehensible state of affairs. They were more interested in covering their own ass financially and PR wise than bothering to find out what the truth was. But that's not terribly surprising, companies in general are immoral entities.

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Offline stack

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #176 on: September 08, 2019, 01:39:46 AM »
See, I think this is the real slippery slope. Just because you don't wish someone good fortune doesn't mean you want them dead and doesn't mean that if they decide to kill themselves you are responsible for it. Granted, I don't really know where the slope begins or ends. In this particular case, we don't know what caused him to commit suicide. Was it the allegations? Or maybe it was because 2 days later when his studio announced:

"August 28: The colleagues with whom Holowka developed his last hit game “cut ties” with him and cancel his current project after some “agonizing consideration.”

A lengthy Reddit post from his Night in the Woods coworkers emphasizes that the team is “heartbroken” but sheds little specific light. “Enough of the allegations are extremely plausible,” writes Scott Benson, adding that “the things that Alec did during the bad times were worse than we knew.”

It's doubtful she went out of her way hoping he'd kill himself (but it's not entirely out of the question, either). I'm not saying she was legally responsible for his death, but to say she isn't morally responsible for it (like Saddam was saying) is just outright wrong. If you attack someone's social status you can't act surprised if it's actually effective.

You could list off a cadre of folks who committed micro/major aggressions against the guy as being morally responsible as well. I'm not sure where one draws the line on this.

Probably a combination of things. But to your argument, are the folks at his studio "responsible" for his suicide as well? They sided with Quinn, Scott Benson essentially stated that plain as day.

They are. Businesses that are firing people merely for being accused of something are morally responsible for adding to a reprehensible state of affairs. They were more interested in covering their own ass financially and PR wise than bothering to find out what the truth was. But that's not terribly surprising, companies in general are immoral entities.

I don't know, there's a bunch of history with this guy and the company and the industry, none of it is pretty. It's not as knee-jerk "firing people merely for being accused of something" kind of thing. Way more complicated than you make it out to be. Super long read, but pretty interesting. From that same Scott Benson guy. Alec's history goes way back.

https://medium.com/@bombsfall/alec-2618dc1e23e
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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #177 on: September 08, 2019, 03:53:46 AM »
An accusation is false until proven to be true. It doesn't sit in a nebulous wonderland of "maybe." To expand on this, if I accuse you, right now, of sexually assaulting me, is it false?

It's false because it didn't happen, not simply because you can't prove it happened. Whether it happened or not is an objective fact, and the question of proof is only relevant to whether or not you can convince others that it happened. To flip your analogy around, imagine that you really are sexually assaulted, and the culprit is a smooth criminal who leaves no trace. The fact that you can't prove that he sexually assaulted you doesn't mean that it didn't happen, nor that you're lying when you then accuse him of sexually assaulting you. Likewise, if you then search around and discover proof, like a recording of the assault, that doesn't magically change your accusation from a lie to the truth. It was always true. You could make an argument for not accepting an accusation as true unless it's accompanied by reasonable evidence, of course, but that's not the same thing as automatically assuming that every unproven accusation is a lie and should be treated as such. In fact, we could turn your own logic on your statements about Quinn - you're accusing her of being a liar who drove an innocent man to his death, despite having no proof. Therefore, you must be lying.

It's doubtful she went out of her way hoping he'd kill himself (but it's not entirely out of the question, either). I'm not saying she was legally responsible for his death, but to say she isn't morally responsible for it (like Saddam was saying) is just outright wrong. If you attack someone's social status you can't act surprised if it's actually effective.

Is she morally responsible for his damaged social status and lost job, absolutely. No question. But morally responsible for the fact that he chose to respond to his situation by doing arguably the most drastic, permanent, and downright irrational thing he could have possibly done? Unless you disagree with that assessment of suicide, I don't see how you can blame a decidedly illogical event on someone via a logical cause-and-effect analysis.

Quote
They are. Businesses that are firing people merely for being accused of something are morally responsible for adding to a reprehensible state of affairs. They were more interested in covering their own ass financially and PR wise than bothering to find out what the truth was. But that's not terribly surprising, companies in general are immoral entities.

This wasn't a "company" in the sense that you're invoking, with a board of faceless douchebags in suits dismissing an anonymous peon casually and then moving on to the day's business. As the reddit post I linked to explains, Infinite Falls is a tiny dev with just a handful of people doing the work, and Holowka and two others being the main designers. Those two were the ones who made the decision to "fire" Holowka, explaining that although they had been friends and worked with him for years, they knew he had behavioral and relationship problems, and that others beyond Quinn had accused him of wrongdoing. I really don't see this small, intimate team promptly selling out a personal friend and key member of their team on the whim of a crazy lady on the Internet with seemingly nothing better to do than make wild accusations. And just looking at the financial/PR angle, showing any kind of solidarity or agreement with someone like Quinn would be every bit as controversial among the gaming community, if not more so, than standing by Holowka and risking an angry op-ed from Kotaku or Polygon.
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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #178 on: September 08, 2019, 10:38:40 PM »
I have very mixed feelings about this.

If it wasn't true, and she ruined his image through social media - then sure, she would be morally responsible on some level.

But if it is true, isn't it more accurate to say that he's the only one responsible? He'd just be facing the natural fall out and consequences of his own actions. If people are caught the legal way doing horrible things and then commit suicide in jail (or while out on bail before trial or during the investigation), is it the legal system that drove that person to committing suicide? Or their own shame at being found out?

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Re: Gamergate!
« Reply #179 on: September 09, 2019, 08:39:25 AM »
Do we know it was a false accusation?
If we apply due process - sort of. No evidence has been presented, thus we should presume innocence. If you want for it to be viewed as a true accusation, all that's needed is some evidence.

Of course, this doesn't preclude modern woke people from abusing the everliving shit out of the accused.
This. I said from the start that people shouldn’t be using social media to accuse people of sexual abuse because it turns the public into an angry mob that have already decided the accused is guilty. No evidence, no trial. The guys career and social life were destroyed before anyone could actually know the facts. Stuff like this should be done through the legal system behind closed doors first.

The people who write up these angry blogs and tweets accusing specific individuals know what they’re doing from the start. They were out to get them. They could arguably have written the accusations toward Anonymous if their only goal was the raise awareness. The real question is (which happens to be nobodies business other than the authorities really) is why they chose to attempt to ruin the reputation of the accused? No one knows the true motives without actual evidence.

Sad times when people can do this kind of stuff through twitter.
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