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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2021, 09:21:40 PM »
They're being more blatant now than ever in their attempts at voter suppression

How is preventing candidates from influencing voters at non-partisan polling places just before they vote considered voter suppression?

I notice that you guys have already given up on the line of argumentation that campaigns should be allowed to do that.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2021, 09:48:18 PM »
They're being more blatant now than ever in their attempts at voter suppression

How is preventing candidates from influencing voters at non-partisan polling places just before they vote considered voter suppression?

I notice that you guys have already given up on the line of argumentation that campaigns should be allowed to do that.

This wasn't an issue as long as Republicans were winning elections. Now that the Democrats are winning in Georgia, there's some kind of problem they have to legislate.
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Offline Iceman

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2021, 10:09:10 PM »
The funny thing is that many (most?) Left leaning people want ALL corporate money out of politics. Get the corporate lobbyists out of DC and prevent them from turning congressmen and women into millionaires.

Having a Democrat offer a republican a Dasani while hes waiting in the voting lines in Georgia isnt going to turn them from voting Red.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2021, 11:10:21 PM »
This wasn't an issue as long as Republicans were winning elections. Now that the Democrats are winning in Georgia, there's some kind of problem they have to legislate.

I am pretty sure that they have been calling for "Voter ID" and similar things for many years regardless of whether R or D are in charge.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2021, 11:31:02 PM »
This wasn't an issue as long as Republicans were winning elections. Now that the Democrats are winning in Georgia, there's some kind of problem they have to legislate.

I am pretty sure that they have been calling for "Voter ID" and similar things for many years regardless of whether R or D are in charge.

They have had a majority of state legislatures for years. Are they ineffective then? Or maybe many of them support Mitch McConnell’s notion of party before country and pass legislation that they think will get them more power?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2021, 11:54:14 PM »
This wasn't an issue as long as Republicans were winning elections. Now that the Democrats are winning in Georgia, there's some kind of problem they have to legislate.

I am pretty sure that they have been calling for "Voter ID" and similar things for many years regardless of whether R or D are in charge.

They have had a majority of state legislatures for years. Are they ineffective then? Or maybe many of them support Mitch McConnell’s notion of party before country and pass legislation that they think will get them more power?

Most of the Republican controlled states do have ID laws - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws_in_the_United_States

The Democrat controlled states do not appear to like requiring IDs to vote. I wonder why.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2021, 12:17:44 AM »
This wasn't an issue as long as Republicans were winning elections. Now that the Democrats are winning in Georgia, there's some kind of problem they have to legislate.

I am pretty sure that they have been calling for "Voter ID" and similar things for many years regardless of whether R or D are in charge.

They have had a majority of state legislatures for years. Are they ineffective then? Or maybe many of them support Mitch McConnell’s notion of party before country and pass legislation that they think will get them more power?

Most of the Republican controlled states do have ID laws - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_identification_laws_in_the_United_States


Then when they lose they cry about how they need restrictions and use their loss to spin a narrative about how the system is out to get them so they keep passing stricter laws.  Its authoritarian and you looooove it.

Hilariously, Voter ID laws tend to have no effect either way.  This is really just a political play by both parties.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 12:28:19 AM by Rama Set »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2021, 12:35:59 AM »
You are just stating that these laws are bad and authoritarian without explaining why it is bad. Can you explain to us why Voter ID is so bad and authoritarian?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 12:43:31 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2021, 12:49:46 AM »
You are just stating that these laws are bad and authoritarian without explaining why it is bad. Can you explain to us why Voter ID is so bad and authoritarian?

The laws aren't authoritarian, the GOP is.  When they lose they spread propaganda about how everyone is against them and then use that fear to pass stricter laws.  There isn't anything wrong with requiring Voter ID (as long as it is accesible to all citizens), just it doesn't solve any problems.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2021, 01:03:05 AM »
How did you determine that it doesn't solve any problems? Clearly, if people know that they have to present ID, they are less likely to try to commit fraud.

https://www.heritage.org/election-integrity/commentary/new-study-confirms-voter-id-laws-dont-hurt-election-turnout

Quote
Research strongly underscores the fact that the certainty of being caught is one of the biggest factors in deterring crime. Without an understanding of their deterrent value, it is impossible to measure the effectiveness of ID laws.

The reality is, election fraud often goes undetected; even when it is discovered, investigators and prosecutors often opt to take no action. In other words, no reliable data exist on the true scope or frequency of fraud, and Heritage’s database can’t be treated as a proxy. Statistical claims based on the database should be treated with great skepticism.

Nor can voter fraud prosecutions be used to measure the overall scope of fraud. That reasoning was roundly rejected by the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Crawford v. Marion County Election Board, a decision that the Supreme Court affirmed when it upheld Indiana’s voter ID law. The 7th Circuit opinion noted:

"But the absence of prosecutions is explained by the endemic under-enforcement of minor criminal laws (minor as they appear to the public and prosecutors, at all events) and by the extreme difficulty of apprehending a voter impersonator. He enters the polling places, gives a name that is not his own, votes, and leaves. If later it is discovered that the name he gave is that of a dead person, no one at the polling place will remember the face of the person who gave that name, and if someone did remember it, what would he do with the information? "

As the 7th Circuit said, such fraud “has a parallel to littering, another crime the perpetrators of which are almost impossible to catch.” 

When a lawbreaker is “almost impossible to catch,” states are faced with two options, according to the court: States may “impose a very severe criminal penalty” or “take preventative action, as Indiana had done by requiring a photo ID.”  And that law has been in place for more than a decade, with none of the problems critics predicted.

The researchers at the National Bureau of Economic Research also failed to realize that a voter ID requirement can stop other types of fraud in addition to impersonation of another voter. It potentially may prevent individuals from voting using false and fictitious registrations; prevent noncitizens from casting ballots; catch out-of-state residents who are registered in multiple states; and make absentee ballot fraud harder to commit in states such as Kansas that have extended the ID requirement to absentee ballots.

This latest research confirms that states are justified in enacting voter ID laws to protect their electoral integrity. Such laws don’t deter eligible voters from registering and voting, and they do not disenfranchise minority voters.

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Offline Iceman

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2021, 01:07:54 AM »
Is there a difference in rates of in-person voter fraud between states with strict ID requirements and those without?

Certainty of getting caught is a deterrent, sure, but is there a problem?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2021, 01:19:57 AM »
Is there a difference in rates of in-person voter fraud between states with strict ID requirements and those without?

Certainty of getting caught is a deterrent, sure, but is there a problem?

Between 2000 and 2014 there was about 30 cases of voter impersonation over about 1 billion votes cast.  They don't do anything.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2021, 01:23:28 AM »
Is there a difference in rates of in-person voter fraud between states with strict ID requirements and those without?

Certainty of getting caught is a deterrent, sure, but is there a problem?

Between 2000 and 2014 there was about 30 cases of voter impersonation over about 1 billion votes cast.  They don't do anything.

The above link I gave says that they don't bother pursuing it and that those statistics are consequently invalid.

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Offline Iceman

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2021, 01:51:37 AM »
The above link I gave says that they don't bother pursuing it and that those statistics are consequently invalid.

If they know what they aren't pursuing, then they should also have some idea of how much could be pursued or not.

I have been (very casually) following politics since I was young and I cant think of a single time that a major election was called into question over legitimate concerns of in person voter fraud.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2021, 03:51:52 AM »
.

Having a Democrat offer a republican a Dasani while hes waiting in the voting lines in Georgia isnt going to turn them from voting Red.

Maybe it will.
Maybe republican voters have become so manipulable that "vote blue and get a water" is all it takes to switch em from red to blue.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2021, 10:39:50 AM »
The above link I gave says that they don't bother pursuing it and that those statistics are consequently invalid.

They assert that the laws are underprosecuted, not that incidences of fraud go undetected.  Its a night and day difference.
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Offline Action80

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2021, 10:46:54 AM »
In several ways.

The law doesn't state voters waiting cannot have water.

They can bring their own water. A family member can bring them water. A friend can bring them water.

I am not sure where in the code you are seeing that family or friends can bring water to an elector.

Quote
The law states the election staff are not responsible to provide water (although many polls already have available fountains) and that people who are electioneers (People advocating for a specific party or candidate) cannot provide water.

Not exactly, it says:

Quote
SECTION 33.
1868 Said chapter is further amended by revising subsections (a) and (e) of Code
1869 Section 21-2-414, relating to restrictions on campaign activities and public opinion polling
1870 within the vicinity of a polling place, cellular phone use prohibited, prohibition of candidates
1871 from entering certain polling places, and penalty, as follows:
1872 "(a) No person shall solicit votes in any manner or by any means or method, nor shall any
1873 person distribute or display any campaign material, nor shall any person give, offer to give,
1874 or participate in the giving of any money or gifts, including, but not limited to, food and
1875 drink, to an elector,
nor shall any person solicit signatures for any petition, nor shall any
1876 person, other than election officials discharging their duties, establish or set up any tables
1877 or booths on any day in which ballots are being cast:
1878 (1) Within 150 feet of the outer edge of any building within which a polling place is
1879 established;
1880 (2) Within any polling place; or
21 SB 202/AP
S. B. 202
- 74 -
1881 (3) Within 25 feet of any voter standing in line to vote at any polling place.
1882 These restrictions shall not apply to conduct occurring in private offices or areas which
1883 cannot be seen or heard by such electors."
1884 "(e) This Code section shall not be construed to prohibit a poll officer from distributing
1885 materials, as required by law, which are necessary for the purpose of instructing electors
1886 or from distributing materials prepared by the Secretary of State which are designed solely
1887 for the purpose of encouraging voter participation in the election being conducted or from
1888 making available self-service water from an unattended receptacle to an elector waiting in
1889 line to vote."

Source: https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/04/Georgia-election-law-SB-202.pdf

I bolded the relevant section to giving food and drink.  It does not say anything about the food or drink having to relate to the collection or solicitation of votes whereas every other clause does make specific mention of solicitation.  It is open to interpretation what soliciting votes is as well.  Also, who cares if a democrat gives an undecided voter water when they are waiting in line.  The GOP is really just hanging on by a thread because their policies are unpopular and they can't market themselves well so they really have no chance of winning an election without fuckery.
Good thing the bolded section isn't the law signed by the governor.

The law in place states that electioneering groups cannot set up what is essentially picnic areas outside a polling station.

Neither you or the  OP have a clue about voting laws in the US if either of you are holding on to this silly idea that people, if they are even waiting in line to vote (having worked polling places for over 30 years, they typically do not need to wait more than 10 - 15 minutes on the outside of the range) cannot get a drink of water.

The real issue that needs to be driven home is this: A person too stupid to satisfy his/her own thirst shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Then please post the law the governor did sign.  Because rama posted what foxnews said is the law so.... Isn't that supposed to be trusted by you?

Also: 15 min. Lines are great.  This doesn't mean its the norm everywhere.  I realize you may have lived a sheltered life and I hate to shatter the illusion but... Well... Not every place in America is like the place you live.
Yeah, it pretty much does.

"Surveying 3,119 precincts, the center found that the average voting wait time in 2018 for precincts with 10% or less non-white voters was 5.1 minutes, and the median was 3.6 minutes. In precincts with 90% or more non-white voters, the average wait time was 32.4 minutes and the median was 13.3 minutes."

So yeah, 10 - 15 minutes to be expected for the max.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2021, 11:15:49 AM »
In several ways.

The law doesn't state voters waiting cannot have water.

They can bring their own water. A family member can bring them water. A friend can bring them water.

I am not sure where in the code you are seeing that family or friends can bring water to an elector.

Quote
The law states the election staff are not responsible to provide water (although many polls already have available fountains) and that people who are electioneers (People advocating for a specific party or candidate) cannot provide water.

Not exactly, it says:

Quote
SECTION 33.
1868 Said chapter is further amended by revising subsections (a) and (e) of Code
1869 Section 21-2-414, relating to restrictions on campaign activities and public opinion polling
1870 within the vicinity of a polling place, cellular phone use prohibited, prohibition of candidates
1871 from entering certain polling places, and penalty, as follows:
1872 "(a) No person shall solicit votes in any manner or by any means or method, nor shall any
1873 person distribute or display any campaign material, nor shall any person give, offer to give,
1874 or participate in the giving of any money or gifts, including, but not limited to, food and
1875 drink, to an elector,
nor shall any person solicit signatures for any petition, nor shall any
1876 person, other than election officials discharging their duties, establish or set up any tables
1877 or booths on any day in which ballots are being cast:
1878 (1) Within 150 feet of the outer edge of any building within which a polling place is
1879 established;
1880 (2) Within any polling place; or
21 SB 202/AP
S. B. 202
- 74 -
1881 (3) Within 25 feet of any voter standing in line to vote at any polling place.
1882 These restrictions shall not apply to conduct occurring in private offices or areas which
1883 cannot be seen or heard by such electors."
1884 "(e) This Code section shall not be construed to prohibit a poll officer from distributing
1885 materials, as required by law, which are necessary for the purpose of instructing electors
1886 or from distributing materials prepared by the Secretary of State which are designed solely
1887 for the purpose of encouraging voter participation in the election being conducted or from
1888 making available self-service water from an unattended receptacle to an elector waiting in
1889 line to vote."

Source: https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/04/Georgia-election-law-SB-202.pdf

I bolded the relevant section to giving food and drink.  It does not say anything about the food or drink having to relate to the collection or solicitation of votes whereas every other clause does make specific mention of solicitation.  It is open to interpretation what soliciting votes is as well.  Also, who cares if a democrat gives an undecided voter water when they are waiting in line.  The GOP is really just hanging on by a thread because their policies are unpopular and they can't market themselves well so they really have no chance of winning an election without fuckery.
Good thing the bolded section isn't the law signed by the governor.

The law in place states that electioneering groups cannot set up what is essentially picnic areas outside a polling station.

Neither you or the  OP have a clue about voting laws in the US if either of you are holding on to this silly idea that people, if they are even waiting in line to vote (having worked polling places for over 30 years, they typically do not need to wait more than 10 - 15 minutes on the outside of the range) cannot get a drink of water.

The real issue that needs to be driven home is this: A person too stupid to satisfy his/her own thirst shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Then please post the law the governor did sign.  Because rama posted what foxnews said is the law so.... Isn't that supposed to be trusted by you?

Also: 15 min. Lines are great.  This doesn't mean its the norm everywhere.  I realize you may have lived a sheltered life and I hate to shatter the illusion but... Well... Not every place in America is like the place you live.
Yeah, it pretty much does.

"Surveying 3,119 precincts, the center found that the average voting wait time in 2018 for precincts with 10% or less non-white voters was 5.1 minutes, and the median was 3.6 minutes. In precincts with 90% or more non-white voters, the average wait time was 32.4 minutes and the median was 13.3 minutes."

So yeah, 10 - 15 minutes to be expected for the max.

.... What about precints with 11-89% non-whites?
You know... Most of the country?
Also 2018 was not a presidential election year so voter turnout is much lower, typically.  Match it to 2020.

Also, still waiting for the actual law the governor signed, not the one foxnews said he did.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 12:22:41 PM by Lord Dave »
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2021, 11:44:24 AM »
That is GA Senate Bill 202 which the governor signed on March 25th.  I am not sure what game Lackey is playing or if he is just ignorant.
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Offline Action80

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Re: New Georgia Law and Corporations
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2021, 11:59:23 AM »
In several ways.

The law doesn't state voters waiting cannot have water.

They can bring their own water. A family member can bring them water. A friend can bring them water.

I am not sure where in the code you are seeing that family or friends can bring water to an elector.

Quote
The law states the election staff are not responsible to provide water (although many polls already have available fountains) and that people who are electioneers (People advocating for a specific party or candidate) cannot provide water.

Not exactly, it says:

Quote
SECTION 33.
1868 Said chapter is further amended by revising subsections (a) and (e) of Code
1869 Section 21-2-414, relating to restrictions on campaign activities and public opinion polling
1870 within the vicinity of a polling place, cellular phone use prohibited, prohibition of candidates
1871 from entering certain polling places, and penalty, as follows:
1872 "(a) No person shall solicit votes in any manner or by any means or method, nor shall any
1873 person distribute or display any campaign material, nor shall any person give, offer to give,
1874 or participate in the giving of any money or gifts, including, but not limited to, food and
1875 drink, to an elector,
nor shall any person solicit signatures for any petition, nor shall any
1876 person, other than election officials discharging their duties, establish or set up any tables
1877 or booths on any day in which ballots are being cast:
1878 (1) Within 150 feet of the outer edge of any building within which a polling place is
1879 established;
1880 (2) Within any polling place; or
21 SB 202/AP
S. B. 202
- 74 -
1881 (3) Within 25 feet of any voter standing in line to vote at any polling place.
1882 These restrictions shall not apply to conduct occurring in private offices or areas which
1883 cannot be seen or heard by such electors."
1884 "(e) This Code section shall not be construed to prohibit a poll officer from distributing
1885 materials, as required by law, which are necessary for the purpose of instructing electors
1886 or from distributing materials prepared by the Secretary of State which are designed solely
1887 for the purpose of encouraging voter participation in the election being conducted or from
1888 making available self-service water from an unattended receptacle to an elector waiting in
1889 line to vote."

Source: https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/04/Georgia-election-law-SB-202.pdf

I bolded the relevant section to giving food and drink.  It does not say anything about the food or drink having to relate to the collection or solicitation of votes whereas every other clause does make specific mention of solicitation.  It is open to interpretation what soliciting votes is as well.  Also, who cares if a democrat gives an undecided voter water when they are waiting in line.  The GOP is really just hanging on by a thread because their policies are unpopular and they can't market themselves well so they really have no chance of winning an election without fuckery.
Good thing the bolded section isn't the law signed by the governor.

The law in place states that electioneering groups cannot set up what is essentially picnic areas outside a polling station.

Neither you or the  OP have a clue about voting laws in the US if either of you are holding on to this silly idea that people, if they are even waiting in line to vote (having worked polling places for over 30 years, they typically do not need to wait more than 10 - 15 minutes on the outside of the range) cannot get a drink of water.

The real issue that needs to be driven home is this: A person too stupid to satisfy his/her own thirst shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Then please post the law the governor did sign.  Because rama posted what foxnews said is the law so.... Isn't that supposed to be trusted by you?

Also: 15 min. Lines are great.  This doesn't mean its the norm everywhere.  I realize you may have lived a sheltered life and I hate to shatter the illusion but... Well... Not every place in America is like the place you live.
Yeah, it pretty much does.

"Surveying 3,119 precincts, the center found that the average voting wait time in 2018 for precincts with 10% or less non-white voters was 5.1 minutes, and the median was 3.6 minutes. In precincts with 90% or more non-white voters, the average wait time was 32.4 minutes and the median was 13.3 minutes."

So yeah, 10 - 15 minutes to be expected for the max.

.... What about precints with 11-89% non-whites?
You know... Most of the country?
What the hell are you going on about?

Precincts with non-whites is addressed in the quote.
Also, still waiting for the actual law the governor signed, not the one foxnews said he did.
That is GA Senate Bill 202 which the governor signed on March 25th.  I am not sure what game Lackey is playing or if he is just ignorant.
And you are correct.

That is the bill signed, but as pointed out by Tom and myself, people can have water while waiting in line for 15, 20, or 40 DAYS AND 40 NIGHTS, for those downtrodden, unfortunate masses who are subjected to such horrors. It is just electioneers who cannot provide it for them.

You both are so funny.

When can we expect the next touring dates announcement?