boteto

Where is the Sun?
« on: September 07, 2020, 04:31:27 PM »
Hi,

I'm new here and a little confused about how the Sun works.  Let's say it's September 20th (the fall equinox) and I'm living in Colombia.  I've got two friends - one in Indonesia and one in Gabon.  At noon in Gabon, my friends and I all look at the sun.  In Gabon, the sun is directly overhead.  In Colombia, the sun is just rising over the horizon, and in indonesia, the sun is just setting on the horizon.  Clearly the sun is somewhere directly overhead of Gabon, but how high up is it?  From indonesia and Colombia it appears as though the sun is right on the horizon.  Even if the sun is really one or two degrees above the horizon, that only puts it at about a couple hundred km above Gabon.  That would mean my friend in Gabon is something like 50 times closer to the sun than I am.  How can this be?

Please someone help me understand what's going on.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2020, 06:00:03 PM »
For clarity, we are talking about Gabon on the Atlantic coast of Africa, aren't we?

From indonesia and Colombia it appears as though the sun is right on the horizon.  Even if the sun is really one or two degrees above the horizon, that only puts it at about a couple hundred km above Gabon.

Perhaps you could outline how you arrived at this figure?

« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 06:02:25 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline J-Man

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2020, 10:12:35 PM »
Hi,

I'm new here and a little confused about how the Sun works.  Let's say it's September 20th (the fall equinox) and I'm living in Colombia.  I've got two friends - one in Indonesia and one in Gabon.  At noon in Gabon, my friends and I all look at the sun.  In Gabon, the sun is directly overhead.  In Colombia, the sun is just rising over the horizon, and in indonesia, the sun is just setting on the horizon.  Clearly the sun is somewhere directly overhead of Gabon, but how high up is it?  From indonesia and Colombia it appears as though the sun is right on the horizon.  Even if the sun is really one or two degrees above the horizon, that only puts it at about a couple hundred km above Gabon.  That would mean my friend in Gabon is something like 50 times closer to the sun than I am.  How can this be?

Please someone help me understand what's going on.

Understand the internet is 100 to 1 ridicule of flat earth belief. Most proofs of flat have been scrubbed. Evil is in control of all media and crazy science.

There's a couple pics of flat in this video and explain exactly what you're seeing when you visualize it.

What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.

boteto

Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2020, 04:03:38 AM »
For clarity, we are talking about Gabon on the Atlantic coast of Africa, aren't we?

From indonesia and Colombia it appears as though the sun is right on the horizon.  Even if the sun is really one or two degrees above the horizon, that only puts it at about a couple hundred km above Gabon.

Perhaps you could outline how you arrived at this figure?

Yeah Gabon on the coast of Africa.  I picked those locations because they're almost exactly 6 hours apart in terms of the solar cycle.

I got the figure by using trigonometry: the distance from Colombia to Gabon is about 10,000 km.  If the Sun is above Gabon and appears 1° above the horizon in Colombia then the Sun is 10,000 km * tan(1°) = 174 km.  If you put in 2° you get 349 km.  This means the distance from Gabon to the Sun is roughly 200 km whereas the distance from Colombia to the Sun is 10000 km, which makes Gabon 50x closer.  Since light intensity depends on the square of the distance from the source, this would make the Sun roughly 2500 times brighter at noon than it is in the morning or evening.  Can you help me understand why the Sun doesn't appear to be 2500 times brighter?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2020, 10:32:23 AM »
Can you help me understand why the Sun doesn't appear to be 2500 times brighter?

No, I can't, because I subscribe to the textbook definition of the Sun being 93mill miles away from our globe Earth. Sorry. Maybe one of the residents around here will be along soon.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2020, 02:01:49 AM »
I watched the entire video above and the only thing I agreed with was the depiction of proper attic ventilation.  I could not find anywhere in the FE Wiki what the Sun is made of.  Spectroscopically it is mainly hydrogen and helium.  How is nuclear fusion explained in a FE model, as fusion requires immense pressure and temperature?   The Bible was never meant to be taken literally, it is written as a story.

Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2020, 12:53:58 PM »
Bare with me here: it doesn't matter.  Where the sun is or isn't has no bearing on the shape of the earth.

With that out of the way, much like the seemingly innocuous "what is the true shape of the earth?", your question is not easy to answer, regardless of "model" you are evaluating, here's an example of what I mean :

No one knows how far away the sun is, where it is, or even what it is (who is talking/sharing anyhow)

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Offline JSS

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2020, 01:52:42 PM »
No one knows how far away the sun is, where it is, or even what it is (who is talking/sharing anyhow)

We have plenty of evidence for both of these.

For the distance, first you bounce a radar pulse off of Venus, timing it's return value gives you the distance.

Then you measure the angle between Venus and the Sun when the angle is at it's maximum.

Using trig, you can easily calculate the distance to the Sun using those two variables.



We can determine what it's made of using spectrometry and looking at the absorption lines in the Solar radiation.


Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2020, 09:37:09 PM »
We have plenty of evidence for both of these.

Can you believe I was taught the same thing? I was taught LOTS of nonsense...

For the distance, first you bounce a radar pulse off of Venus, timing it's return value gives you the distance.

Yep, that's the story!  And as long as all the other completely unvalidated asumptions (like the radar return is coming from venus and the astronomical conceptions are correct) are accepted as "inerrent truth" then you can swallow crap like this.

We can determine what it's made of using spectrometry

Yeah, that tells us something about the light that reaches us.  It isn't meaningless, it just isn't direct observation of the sun - nor does it tell us what it is composed of or suggest its function.  We can only finerprint identify in this manner with known (terrestrial) patterns - it is highly interpretive, inferential at best, and not at all "proof" of the psuedoscience mythology we are taught as fact from a shamefully tender age.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2020, 10:39:57 PM »
... as long as all the other completely unvalidated asumptions (like the radar return is coming from venus ...

What else would/could it be returning from?

What else is out there to bounce it back?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2020, 10:40:35 PM »
Read up on the Parker Solar probe.   http://parkersolarprobe.jhuapl.edu/The-Mission/index.php    It gives real direct observation of the Sun.

Clearly the American education system is failing, and we are edging toward a situation like the movie "Idiocracy".  No one learns math and science the hard way like we used to, and the internet, while being a great source of information, also perpetuates misinformation. 

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Offline JSS

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2020, 10:59:26 PM »
We have plenty of evidence for both of these.

Can you believe I was taught the same thing? I was taught LOTS of nonsense...

For the distance, first you bounce a radar pulse off of Venus, timing it's return value gives you the distance.

Yep, that's the story!  And as long as all the other completely unvalidated asumptions (like the radar return is coming from venus and the astronomical conceptions are correct) are accepted as "inerrent truth" then you can swallow crap like this.

Unvalidated assumptions?  We have landed probes on Venus. If it wasn't exactly were we thought is was, and exactly as large and massive as we calculated then we couldn't have done that.

Multiple countries have sent probes to Venus. The Parker Solar Probe is right now getting closer and closer to the sun, making observations and again, exactly where it should be.

If you think the radar is bouncing off something else, please explain what that is, and why we can put spacecraft into orbit around the planet?

We can determine what it's made of using spectrometry

Yeah, that tells us something about the light that reaches us.  It isn't meaningless, it just isn't direct observation of the sun - nor does it tell us what it is composed of or suggest its function.  We can only finerprint identify in this manner with known (terrestrial) patterns - it is highly interpretive, inferential at best, and not at all "proof" of the psuedoscience mythology we are taught as fact from a shamefully tender age.

Telling us what it contains tells us a lot about it's function, we know hydrogen fuses to helium under great pressure and temperature.  Spectrometry isn't meaningless, it's one piece of evidence that fits in with a million others that tell us what the sun is and how it works. From nuclear fission to quantum mechanics to Relativity and Newtons laws and chemistry and all the disciples of science that study the nature of the universe.

You call it a "psuedoscience mythology" but where do you think cars, airplanes, computers, cell phones, GPS and the rest of the modern world come from?  If science gas got it all wrong, how are we using it to make all those things?

Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2020, 08:59:15 PM »
@macattack

I will check it out.  I expect it to be more unvalidated/unvalidatable fiction like most all space ANYTHING.  Do you have any reason to suspect it is actually real? I have a lot of reason to expect it to be hoax.

You are not paying attention if you think this has something to do with the AMERICAN education system.  It has everything to do with the "education" system - I completely agree. I also see idiocracy as somewhat prophetic, even if it is one of the worst things judge has ever made.

@JSS

"If you think the radar is bouncing off something else, please explain what that is, and why we can put spacecraft into orbit around the planet?"

We can't. It's all fraud and hoax.  However, that isn't to say it is impossible that "orbit" is somewhat real, just not at all like we've been told.  There is, somewhat unequivocally, no "outer space" of any kind in any case. Nequaquam vacuum.

The radar likely bounces off the "ionosphere" / ceiling.  Looking back, I can't believe I fell for the ionosphere - what a crock of absolute bull.

"Telling us what it contains tells us a lot about it's function"

Not really, but even if it did - spectroscopy doesn't tell us what it contains.

"Spectrometry isn't meaningless"

Of course not! Who said that?

"it's one piece of evidence that fits in with a million others that tell us what the sun is and how it works"

Nonsense, it is the major piece of "evidence" and there is no great tapestry composed of other observations.  Whenever anyone says "there's so much evidence - millions" you can be well assured it's bs.  The solar "theories" (most all of astronomy, and other paper-mache "theories" like evolution) are intended to present a unified/consistent facade, but that's all it is.  Behind it, is mythology and speculation presented erroneously as "scientific" fact from childhood.

"From nuclear fission to quantum mechanics to Relativity and Newtons laws and chemistry and all the disciples of science that study the nature of the universe."

You might be surprised how much of that list is non-real / misunderstood / incorrect.  The myth of scientism is grand.

"If science gas got it all wrong, how are we using it to make all those things?"

Please don't misunderstand. I love science. I always have, and have a lot of knowledge about its history as well.  I have loved philosophy since I was a child.  Science is great, and leads to actionable knowledge to, ideally, the benefit of all mankind.  Pseudoscience doesn't do that, and there is a tremendous amount of religion/mythology masquerading as science today, and that makes me very sad (and angry).  You can discern the difference, but you have to learn how first! It is all a failure of education, and the secular religion of scientism. 

« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 09:05:27 PM by jack44556677 »

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Offline JSS

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2020, 08:55:11 PM »
@JSS

"If you think the radar is bouncing off something else, please explain what that is, and why we can put spacecraft into orbit around the planet?"

We can't. It's all fraud and hoax.  However, that isn't to say it is impossible that "orbit" is somewhat real, just not at all like we've been told.  There is, somewhat unequivocally, no "outer space" of any kind in any case. Nequaquam vacuum.

Do you have specific evidence of this hoax and conspiracy or evidence space doesn't exist?  Because we can't very well have a discussion if literally anything I say can be discarded by calling it a 'hoax' and providing no evidence to back it up.

If you want to discuss a massive global conspiracy I'd be happy to in a thread devoted to that subject.

Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2020, 06:12:57 AM »
Quote
Do you have specific evidence of this hoax and conspiracy or evidence space doesn't exist?

Yes.  For the hoax, I thought this did a good job : https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy#Evidence_for_the_Conspiracy

As for space not existing, things don't exist until they are adequately proven they do.  The only evidence for space is on tv.  In real life, nature does not allow vacuum to persist.  The ancients galvanized this in the phrase "nequaquam vacuum". It is a truism and perhaps a truth as well (as it applies across subjects in a way it ought not).

The second law of thermodynamics and fundamental gas law are both violated by the mere concept of the "infinite sky vacuum" above our heads.  It is some of the most mind numbingly stupid mythology mankind has ever concocted, and that takes some serious doing!

Quote
If you want to discuss a massive global conspiracy

Lol, no thanks!  There is none to my knowledge, not massive (in terms of "perpetrators" anyhow) and certainly not global!  The wiki I linked to explains the nature of the conspiracy, and why it isn't what you think i think it is.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 06:44:22 AM by jack44556677 »

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Offline JSS

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2020, 01:44:53 PM »
Quote
Do you have specific evidence of this hoax and conspiracy or evidence space doesn't exist?

Yes.  For the hoax, I thought this did a good job : https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy#Evidence_for_the_Conspiracy

As for space not existing, things don't exist until they are adequately proven they do.  The only evidence for space is on tv.  In real life, nature does not allow vacuum to persist.  The ancients galvanized this in the phrase "nequaquam vacuum". It is a truism and perhaps a truth as well (as it applies across subjects in a way it ought not).

The second law of thermodynamics and fundamental gas law are both violated by the mere concept of the "infinite sky vacuum" above our heads.  It is some of the most mind numbingly stupid mythology mankind has ever concocted, and that takes some serious doing!

Quote
If you want to discuss a massive global conspiracy

Lol, no thanks!  There is none to my knowledge, not massive (in terms of "perpetrators" anyhow) and certainly not global!  The wiki I linked to explains the nature of the conspiracy, and why it isn't what you think i think it is.

How can it not be a global conspiracy?

The countries that have put their own satellites into orbit are Soviet Union, United States, France, Japan, China, United Kingdom, India, Israel, Russia, Iran, North Korea, South Korea, and even New Zealand.  That's very global.

I'm fully aware that the TFES wiki claims the conspiracy is hiding the fact that we don't go into space, not about the shape of the Earth which is just a side effect.  You can call it a hoax instead of a conspiracy and debate the reason behind it but that doesn't change anything, it would still need to be a far-reaching global one involving large numbers of people and entire industries.  Hundreds of people have been sent to space, all of them must have been paid actors, not to mention all the people working on the ships.  So far I've seen zero evidence there is any conspiracy going on.  Where are all the whistleblowers?  How can it have been kept secret for 50+ years all over the world?  Is every country involved in some deal to never question it?

Nothing about the second law of thermodynamics says you can't have a vacuum, what exactly makes you think it does, can you elaborate?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2020, 05:55:45 PM »
How many of those space agencies can really operate as fully independent space agencies?

https://www.planetary.org/explore/the-planetary-report/australia-space-program.html

  “ The fact that so many countries seem to want a space program implies an inherent value to exploring space, but what is it? Last year, Australia became the latest country to announce the formation of its own space agency. The process took a significant step forward in March with a new report recommending goals and focus for its space agency.

The report also provides insight about why Australia sees space as a valuable enterprise. The report highlights several areas where the country could leapfrog others by strategically investing in specific capabilities (for example, artificial intelligence or quantum computing) and sets out a goal of tripling the size of the Australian space industry by 2030. One of the keys to succeeding in this new effort, the report declares, will be international partnerships.

International partnerships provide the means for countries to participate in the exploration of space without having to create expensive, enabling infrastructure from the ground up. They can leverage the space capabilities of other nations while providing unique contributions to the benefit of their own industry and scientific base. This is the opposite of a zero-sum, competitive mentality of international relations; a rising rocket lifts all spacecraft, if you will. The European Space Agency’s very existence relies on this model. Its BepiColombo mission—as you will read in this issue—includes contributions from 13 European member states, the United States, and Japan. This coalition of nations is deeply invested in the success of the mission, spreading out the cost and also the political support. ”

NASA is encouraged to help other countries do space activities.

https://spacepolicyonline.com/topics/international-space-activities/

NASA AND INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION IN SPACE

  “ International cooperation has been a hallmark of NASA’s programs throughout its history. The law that created NASA, the 1958 National Aeronautics and Space Act, included Section 205 that encouraged NASA to cooperate with other countries. A 2014 report by NASA’s Office of International and Interagency Relations states that NASA has signed over 3,000 international agreements since its inception. The report, Global Reach: A View of NASA’s International Cooperation, lists international cooperative projects ongoing at NASA at the time of publication. ”
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 06:02:16 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2020, 07:07:11 PM »


The fact that so many countries seem to want a space program implies an inherent value to exploring space, but what is it?


Money pure and simple.   

Earth Orbit:  Communications. Starlink will become one of the biggest cash cows in history.  Imagine being on a sailboat in the middle of the pacific and getting broadband.   

The Moon and Asteroids:  Mining.  The moon is chock full of useful things we are running out of, and things that are very hard to get on earth like
Helium-3.   Asteroids are pure minerals of all kinds.   




Nothing Guest has ever said should be taken as representative of anything other than Guest's own delusions opinions.

Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2020, 07:48:37 PM »
How many of those space agencies can really operate as fully independent space agencies?

https://www.planetary.org/explore/the-planetary-report/australia-space-program.html

  “ The fact that so many countries seem to want a space program implies an inherent value to exploring space, but what is it? Last year, Australia became the latest country to announce the formation of its own space agency. The process took a significant step forward in March with a new report recommending goals and focus for its space agency.

The report also provides insight about why Australia sees space as a valuable enterprise. The report highlights several areas where the country could leapfrog others by strategically investing in specific capabilities (for example, artificial intelligence or quantum computing) and sets out a goal of tripling the size of the Australian space industry by 2030. One of the keys to succeeding in this new effort, the report declares, will be international partnerships.

International partnerships provide the means for countries to participate in the exploration of space without having to create expensive, enabling infrastructure from the ground up. They can leverage the space capabilities of other nations while providing unique contributions to the benefit of their own industry and scientific base. This is the opposite of a zero-sum, competitive mentality of international relations; a rising rocket lifts all spacecraft, if you will. The European Space Agency’s very existence relies on this model. Its BepiColombo mission—as you will read in this issue—includes contributions from 13 European member states, the United States, and Japan. This coalition of nations is deeply invested in the success of the mission, spreading out the cost and also the political support. ”

NASA is encouraged to help other countries do space activities.

https://spacepolicyonline.com/topics/international-space-activities/

NASA AND INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION IN SPACE

  “ International cooperation has been a hallmark of NASA’s programs throughout its history. The law that created NASA, the 1958 National Aeronautics and Space Act, included Section 205 that encouraged NASA to cooperate with other countries. A 2014 report by NASA’s Office of International and Interagency Relations states that NASA has signed over 3,000 international agreements since its inception. The report, Global Reach: A View of NASA’s International Cooperation, lists international cooperative projects ongoing at NASA at the time of publication. ”

Signing 3K international agreements, sharing technology and encouraging and cooperating with other countries (even otherwise hostile countries) doesn't seem to be a very effective way to "militarily dominate space".

What is even the point of falsely claiming to dominate something that either doesn't even exist or is technologically impossible?

Makes as much since as Facebook spending billions of dollars just to be able to proclaim it dominates social media before the internet existed.

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: Where is the Sun?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2020, 10:26:24 PM »
How many of those space agencies can really operate as fully independent space agencies?

At least the Soviet (now Russian), European, Japanese and Chinese space programs started as independent from the NASA, and developed fully independent launch capability with their own launch sites, their own rockets and their own satellites (maybe India, Israel and Iran too, would have to check that).
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read