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Offline rooster

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2014, 06:30:32 PM »
Independence is the motivation for independence.
Do you support Texan and/or Californian secessionists for the same reason?
I do. It doesn't matter much to me, but it is slightly different since neither of those states were originally their own independent country with their own citizens and economy.

Thork

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2014, 06:43:01 PM »
Independence is the motivation for independence.
Do you support Texan and/or Californian secessionists for the same reason?
I do. It doesn't matter much to me, but it is slightly different since neither of those states were originally their own independent country with their own citizens and economy.
Why is it slightly different? None of those people are alive today. The only difference is they can say "well it used to be that way, and we want it back that way" as opposed to "its never been that way but we would like it to be that way". The actual process of doing it is the exact same though and it has the exact same reprecussions. If you allow people to go on about 'original' claims you end up with nonsense like Yaakov's Jews being promised Israel 4500 years ago by God.


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Offline rooster

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2014, 07:03:46 PM »
Why is it so terrible to let them vote? If the majority don't want to be a part of England then why force them?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2014, 07:25:55 PM »
I do.
Fair enough. For the record, I wasn't planning to criticise that or have any follow-up at all, I was just curious.

It doesn't matter much to me, but it is slightly different since neither of those states were originally their own independent country with their own citizens and economy.
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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2014, 07:45:23 PM »
The Scots can certainly prove their claim to independence in previous centries, just as Jews can prove that they have had a continuous presence in Israel for 4500 years. I don't agree with independence for a variety of reasons, but that's another matter.

Thork

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2014, 07:51:31 PM »
Why is it so terrible to let them vote? If the majority don't want to be a part of England then why force them?
Why do they get an option to leave Westminster's tyranny because of geography? Can the home counties get a vote too? The entire country is run to help London in every way possible. Everyone wants away from London, assuming they could afford it.

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Offline Lemon

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2014, 07:53:40 PM »
Right pathetic looking, the British Isles will be. The Scottish were always treated much better than the Irish so I don't see much motivation for independence, really.
Independence is the motivation for independence.

I just appreciate that they're getting their own vote on it. If being independent is going to screw them over then at least they tried. It's not necessarily all about Braveheart either. Plenty of Scots hated the union in the 1700s and that was quite some time before Mel Gibson.

I don't see much motivation but Independence for Independence sake is there. Just not much else. I do like people being allowed vote too. It's really essential to having a modern society.
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Thork

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2014, 08:04:11 PM »
I do like people being allowed vote too. It's really essential to having a modern society.
Its pointless. You always end up with two parties that will invariably make all the same bad choices as both are lobbied full time by global companies.

Monarchy is a pretty good system as the richest person is the least likely to be corrupt. There will always be corrupt politicians in every party in power. The problem with Monarchy is you sometimes get a great king (which is better than democracy by far), but sometimes you don't and you can't change that until he is dead.

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2014, 08:11:04 PM »
I'm not Scottish but I'm guessing their reasons for wanting independence are -

Economic - they think they can run their own economy better than Westminster can

Political - an independent Scotland will never suffer under the yoke of a Conservative government

Cultural - Braveheart

I think economically they may have a point.

http://metro.co.uk/2014/08/27/uk-is-the-most-financially-unequal-country-in-northern-europe-new-research-reveals-4847533/

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Offline Lemon

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2014, 08:13:00 PM »
Its pointless. You always end up with two parties that will invariably make all the same bad choices as both are lobbied full time by global companies.

Which should be illegal.

Monarchy is a pretty good system as the richest person is the least likely to be corrupt.

I don't understand how this could possibly be true?
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Thork

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2014, 08:20:46 PM »
Monarchy is a pretty good system as the richest person is the least likely to be corrupt.

I don't understand how this could possibly be true?
Let's say I run a company that recycles household plastics. How much would it cost to get the right politician to force every council to provide a bin for this in every home? Bearing in mind a politician earns about £70,000 a year.

Now how much is it going to cost me to do that with King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia?

Kings aren't exempt from corruption, but a good king might never ever be corrupt.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 08:22:34 PM by Thork »

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Offline Lemon

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2014, 08:27:52 PM »
Monarchy is a pretty good system as the richest person is the least likely to be corrupt.

I don't understand how this could possibly be true?
Let's say I run a company that recycles household plastics. How much would it cost to get the right politician to force every council to provide a bin for this in every home? Bearing in mind a politician earns about £70,000 a year.

Now how much is it going to cost me to do that with King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia?

Kings aren't exempt from corruption, but a good king might never ever be corrupt.

I'm sorry but I'm inclined to disagree. Monarchs have a history of violence and corruption (or giving into such).
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Thork

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2014, 08:31:31 PM »
I'm sorry but I'm inclined to disagree. Monarchs have a history of violence and corruption (or giving into such).
Of course. There are bad kings and they make life miserable. But a good King is far better than any democracy you could hope for.

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Offline Lemon

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2014, 08:37:15 PM »
I'm sorry but I'm inclined to disagree. Monarchs have a history of violence and corruption (or giving into such).
Of course. There are bad kings and they make life miserable. But a good King is far better than any democracy you could hope for.

Not worth it?
NOTHING TO SEE HERE. IGNORE RAMA SET.

Thork

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2014, 08:45:36 PM »
I'm sorry but I'm inclined to disagree. Monarchs have a history of violence and corruption (or giving into such).
Of course. There are bad kings and they make life miserable. But a good King is far better than any democracy you could hope for.

Not worth it?
Despite being given a vote, I don't get to choose if I want a King or not, so it doesn't matter. And that's one of the main issues. You rarely get a vote on anything. You just pick one bunch of liars or the other.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2014, 09:57:49 PM »
Economic - they think they can run their own economy better than Westminster can

I think economically they may have a point.
I cannot claim expertise on the subject, but there have been articles in reasonably reputable magazines that made the case both for Scotland's great economy and predictions of a very rapid decline after declaring independence (e.g. http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21606869-independent-scotland-would-be-rich-country-terrible-prospects-costly-solitude). Personally, I find the latter to be more convincing. But, just like you, I'm not Scottish, and I will probably be leaving the UK in about a year, so I can't say I care too much.

Political - an independent Scotland will never suffer under the yoke of a Conservative government
SNP have literally the same policies, except they don't understand how the current UK and EU governances work.

Cultural - Braveheart
Honestly, I think this is what it's all about. Decades of "ay'm Scottesh, not Britesh" mentality have finally compounded to the point where they think they need independence. I'd say that I'm confident they're in the minority, but I was horribly wrong about UKIP in European Elections, so I no longer trust my guesstimates of political popularity.
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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2014, 10:48:25 PM »
My prediction at the minute is a narrow defeat for the Yes campaign. I have a feeling that the UK government will renege on any promise of increased devolution powers once the referendum is over.

Thork

Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #77 on: August 27, 2014, 10:49:49 PM »
The Bookies still have 4/1 on a Yes. Its been a near certainty from the off. I think its been left to run its course as a way to kill off the SNP for good.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 11:43:20 PM by Thork »

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Offline jroa

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2014, 11:07:10 PM »
It doesn't matter much to me, but it is slightly different since neither of those states were originally their own independent country with their own citizens and economy.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Scottish Independence
« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2014, 11:24:14 PM »
I really wish California and Texas would secede. They're both terribly obnoxious for different reasons. I don't think California ever would but I can see Texas doing it.

Everyone's crapping on Braveheart, but it's not a bad thing to have pride in your heritage. Wallace was kind of a douche but Robert Bruce was cool and The Battle of Bannockburn was pretty awesome. If Scots still get all misty eyed and swell with national pride over that then good for them. We all love beating the English.