The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: The Terror on July 07, 2014, 09:25:30 PM

Title: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on July 07, 2014, 09:25:30 PM
Having just watched the BBC show about the pros and cons of Scottish Independence, I'd vote yes to independence.

If I was Scottish. But I'm not. But I would if I was.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 08, 2014, 02:01:29 PM
But that would be dumb.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Ghost of V on July 08, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
The only good thing to come out of Scotland was The Jesus and Mary Chain. They can't ride on that achievement forever.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on July 08, 2014, 05:18:14 PM
Alba gu bràth!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on July 08, 2014, 06:32:59 PM
I think the Yes campaign has the better celebrity endorsements. Susan Boyle is backing the No campaign.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 08, 2014, 09:30:11 PM
The Yes campaign has people who are good at entertaining others. The No campaign has people who understand how economics works.

You decide!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on July 08, 2014, 11:55:56 PM
I can't believe we got to this point and Ireland still doesn't have our other 6 counties back. God damn it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Parsifal on July 09, 2014, 02:04:15 AM
I hope Scotland secedes and joins the EU properly. Then I can visit whisky distilleries when I visit Europe without having to leave the Schengen zone.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 09, 2014, 02:08:47 PM
I hope Scotland secedes and joins the EU properly.
Well, that wouldn't happen for quite a while. You see, Scotland would first have to build an economy that at least matches that of Romania.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on July 09, 2014, 05:45:51 PM
From the Wikipedia page on Scotland's economy:
Quote
In the run up to the referendum on Scottish independence opinions on the likely state of a post-UK Scottish economy are varied. Some commentators believe that a current account surplus would accrue to Scotland (including oil and gas revenues).[71] In response, a spokesman for finance secretary John Swinney referred to “the UK’s deteriorating growth outlook" and noted that Scotland was the only area of the UK outside London to record output growth between 2007 and 2010 and that "among the 12 nations and regions of the UK, Scotland is the third most prosperous in terms of output per head – behind only London and the South East of England.”[72] Contrasting research has indicated that the GDP figures for an independent Scotland have been overestimated.[73] Scotland has 8.4% of the UK population, 32% of the land mass and generates 9.1% (£53.1bn) of UK tax revenues, and receives 9.3% (£65.2bn) of UK spending back from Westminster.[74][75] In 2012-2013, this amounted to a budget deficit of 8.3% of GDP, higher than the UK's overall budget deficit for the same period of 7.3% of GDP.[74] including a geographic share of North Sea oil.

Are you referring to that deficit estimate? The US has had worse and so has Romania. At least that's what a really basic google search tells me.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on July 09, 2014, 08:46:27 PM
Scotland would probably be prevented from entering the EU by Spain to discourage the Basque Separatists from copying Scotland's example.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on July 09, 2014, 11:01:32 PM
Scotland would probably be prevented from entering the EU by Spain to discourage the Basque Separatists from copying Scotland's example.
Spain have already asked for some of Scotland's fishing rights in exchange for their blessing into the Eurozone. I think France and Germany want North sea oil. They'll have nothing left by the time everyone else made a demand.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on July 10, 2014, 01:06:01 PM
What's the point. If they vote no the UK will cede more powers anyway, the only areas they won't have direct control over are defence and umm... a bit of tax I guess? If they vote Yes, they'll keep the Queen, open borders, the pounds, a combined defence force, but the flag will change...
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on July 10, 2014, 09:07:40 PM
I guess they think they can handle their economy better than Westminster can.

I'm a bit surprised that the government doesn't want Scotland to go independent, there's no Conservative voters north of the border.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on July 10, 2014, 10:06:27 PM
I would think a lot of it just has to do with the principle of the thing. They've been fighting for independence for a verra long time, ye ken.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: fappenhosen on July 10, 2014, 10:21:56 PM
Why is it only the scots that get to vote on British independence? This is very undemocratic.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on July 11, 2014, 12:15:51 PM
Why is it only the scots that get to vote on British independence? This is very undemocratic.

Because of the principle of self-determination. the Scots are looking to remove themselves from the Union, not kick England, Wales and NI out of it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: fappenhosen on July 11, 2014, 04:47:17 PM
What about those that want to remove England, Wales and NI out of Scotland, England, Wales and NI?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 11, 2014, 05:38:00 PM
the pounds
So far, the UK's stance on that was a loud "AHAHAHAHA, NO.", so I doubt they'll get that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10731657/Talk-of-independent-Scotland-keeping-the-pound-is-nonsense-and-totally-wrong.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26166794
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on July 11, 2014, 06:17:14 PM
the pounds
So far, the UK's stance on that was a loud "AHAHAHAHA, NO.", so I doubt they'll get that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10731657/Talk-of-independent-Scotland-keeping-the-pound-is-nonsense-and-totally-wrong.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26166794
They will. The bank of England won't let them leave. If you control the money supply, you control the nation. In fact, it can't be independence without independence from the Bank of England.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: fappenhosen on July 11, 2014, 07:44:36 PM
Don't think that'll work. Many governments, one interest rate? Haven't we seen that before?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on July 17, 2014, 06:55:38 AM
the pounds
So far, the UK's stance on that was a loud "AHAHAHAHA, NO.", so I doubt they'll get that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10731657/Talk-of-independent-Scotland-keeping-the-pound-is-nonsense-and-totally-wrong.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26166794
They will. The bank of England won't let them leave. If you control the money supply, you control the nation. In fact, it can't be independence without independence from the Bank of England.

They can't really make them stop. If they wanted to, they could use the US dollar or the Russian Ruble.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 19, 2014, 08:58:10 AM
They can't really make them stop. If they wanted to, they could use the US dollar or the Russian Ruble.
Well, they had better run to their local TSB branch to exchange their possibly-soon-to-be-worthless RBS notes before it's too late, then.

Using another country's currency without that country's express consent and co-operation isn't that easy, unless you're small and insignificant enough not to require a steady supply of said currency.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on July 19, 2014, 11:42:40 AM
They can't really make them stop. If they wanted to, they could use the US dollar or the Russian Ruble.
Well, they had better run to their local TSB branch to exchange their possibly-soon-to-be-worthless RBS notes before it's too late, then.

Using another country's currency without that country's express consent and co-operation isn't that easy, unless you're small and insignificant enough not to require a steady supply of said currency.
You can peg your own currency to another one, but you are still completely at the mercy of their economic policies. You aren't independent.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on July 19, 2014, 03:13:18 PM
They could have their own currency, the long lost Scottish unicorns!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: fappenhosen on July 21, 2014, 08:13:13 PM
Using another country's currency without that country's express consent and co-operation isn't that easy, unless you're small and insignificant enough not to require a steady supply of said currency.

You also get a currency valued at the distance from its native home. The further north you are the more expensive things will cost.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on July 29, 2014, 12:58:07 PM
They can't really make them stop. If they wanted to, they could use the US dollar or the Russian Ruble.
Well, they had better run to their local TSB branch to exchange their possibly-soon-to-be-worthless RBS notes before it's too late, then.

Using another country's currency without that country's express consent and co-operation isn't that easy, unless you're small and insignificant enough not to require a steady supply of said currency.
You can peg your own currency to another one, but you are still completely at the mercy of their economic policies. You aren't independent.

Scotland won't be 'independent' regardless of how they vote.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on July 29, 2014, 01:09:27 PM
It's a start. God forbid, they make their own currency at some point in the future.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 29, 2014, 01:15:02 PM
It's a start. God forbid, they make their own currency at some point in the future.
You don't get it, do you? It's not a start because they have no practical way of robbing England of enough notes to maintain a healthy circulation. That's precisely why they need their own currency from the get-go, and for that they need a sustainable economy.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on July 29, 2014, 01:23:48 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/27/scottish-independence-scotland

Scotland are the 14th richest country in the economic bloc, seems like a sound basis for economic independence.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on July 29, 2014, 03:07:19 PM
Everything I've read sounds like they have a stable economy.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on July 29, 2014, 03:49:14 PM
Well, being that strange creation, an English Jew in the American Midwest, I am a dedicated Unionist as far as the United Kingdom goes. Breaking up the Kingdom just seems like a thoroughly stupid thing to do. Then again, I thought Devolution was a bad idea back when John Major was so against it.

It turns out I was right then, and I expect I'd be right now. Devolution brought about this insane desire for independence. The United Kingdom went from ruling appr. 1/3 of the world's surface and 1/4 of the world's population to now possibly ceasing to exist. Going from one country to two countries would simply result in the weakening of both. And who in their right mind would want to align themselves any closer to the EU then the UK already is? If anything, the UK should be trying to exit the EU, not get further into bed with it!

Well, for what it's worth, that is my own opinion, at any rate. Granted, I'm not Scottish. But still, Scotland can have much more influence in the world as part of the UK than as an independent, insignificant state. I don't mean to be nasty, either. For those who disagree with me, I certainly respect your right to do that. I guess that is what this vote is all about.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 30, 2014, 12:04:12 AM
Scotland are the 14th richest country in the economic bloc, seems like a sound basis for economic independence.
Everything I've read sounds like they have a stable economy.
Yes, because they're not independent, and because they're using the Pound Sterling. That would be all fantastic if we were not discussing Scottish independence; but we are.

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21606869-independent-scotland-would-be-rich-country-terrible-prospects-costly-solitude
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21590592-new-report-finances-north-border-headache-nationalists-scotch-rocks
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21596935-battle-scotland-has-come-turn-dispute-over-currencywhich-unionists-are

This is the exact same argument that Texas is making now and then. Just because Texas/Scotland is doing well in the union which helps it out doesn't mean it can suddenly break off and expect anything other than an economic crisis (or, in Texas's case, probably a war).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on July 30, 2014, 12:30:59 AM
 I'd guess that there would probably be a lot of immigration into Scotland from other parts of the UK or Ireland, which would boost the Scottish economy and help to balance out the workers/old people ratio. I think there's an element of risk, but it's not like Scotland it's going to turn into a third world country.

As for political influence, it doesn't translate into improved quality of life for the general population. At the height of the British Empire most of the British population lived in poverty.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 30, 2014, 02:08:11 AM
I'd guess that there would probably be a lot of immigration into Scotland from other parts of the UK or Ireland
Why would there be more immigration into Scotland than there already is? I wouldn't wish that to my worst enemies. They already have an unemployment problem, much like the rest of the UK.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: fappenhosen on July 30, 2014, 11:49:07 PM
I'd guess that there would probably be a lot of immigration into Scotland from other parts of the UK or Ireland

Unlikely. I can't see a sudden economic boom springing out of nowhere. They probably have all the people they need to maintain north sea oil production, which, lets face it, is the countries one cash cow.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on July 31, 2014, 12:35:51 AM
They would need to set up the infrastructure and civil service to support an independent country.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on July 31, 2014, 03:56:40 AM
They should use Bitcoin as their currency.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on July 31, 2014, 08:49:55 AM
They should use Bitcoin as their currency.
What do you do when you need a £1 coin for a shopping trolley or a locker in a gym? How do you lend a mate a fiver on a night out? How do you make a wish in a fountain or give change to your favourite busker? You are a monster. >:(
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on July 31, 2014, 06:28:47 PM
What do you do when you need a £1 coin for a shopping trolley or a locker in a gym? How do you lend a mate a fiver on a night out? How do you make a wish in a fountain or give change to your favourite busker? You are a monster. >:(

Scotland can create a central authority that buys up bitcoins and then issues shares of them in the form of paper currency or they could even create their own version of bitcoin. ScottieCoin or something.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Particle Person on July 31, 2014, 06:32:40 PM
That kind of defeats the point.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on August 03, 2014, 09:12:56 PM
Latest propaganda -

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/make-sure-you-have-the-facts-when-you-decide-scotlands-future/make-sure-you-have-the-facts-when-you-decide-scotlands-future

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0045/00456894.pdf

It looks like the Yes campaign put more effort into their leaflet.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on August 03, 2014, 09:41:41 PM
That kind of defeats the point.

The point of what?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: fappenhosen on August 09, 2014, 12:38:48 AM
That kind of defeats the point.

The point of what?

you're not very good at this
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Saddam Hussein on August 09, 2014, 02:57:20 AM
The reincarnation of William Wallace will soon reveal himself and lead the battle for Scottish independence.  They will call him the Wallarine.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on August 21, 2014, 05:40:58 PM
I was watching another BBC documentary about Scottish independence which raised some interesting points. Since Britain's nuclear submarine base is based in Scotland and there's no suitable location available in the UK, we could potentially lose our nuclear deterrent. We'd also lose a fairly significant part of our conventional armed forces to Scotland. Which in turn might lead to being kicked off the UN security council.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 21, 2014, 06:22:18 PM
I was watching another BBC documentary about Scottish independence which raised some interesting points. Since Britain's nuclear submarine base is based in Scotland and there's no suitable location available in the UK, we could potentially lose our nuclear deterrent.
That would be a blessing. It is incredibly expensive and serves no purpose. We've never used it ... ever. Unfortunately they'll just move it. Northern Ireland, Portsmouth, Plymouth ... They'll find a place.

We'd also lose a fairly significant part of our conventional armed forces to Scotland.
Sadly not. Scotland couldn't afford those armed forces and we'd just relocate them. In fact its likely we wouldn't relocate hem. They'd just be British bases in Scotland. Much like Lakenheath is an American airforce base in England. Go home, Yanks. The cold war is over. >:(

Which in turn might lead to being kicked off the UN security council.
Again, sadly not. We would still have the 4th or 5th largest military budget in the world. Who would we be making way for? Spain? Japan? Argentina? The burden of policing the world isn't going to go away that easily. Far to much British tax to plunder to squander an opportunity like that.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on August 27, 2014, 03:24:49 PM
I think the SNP are planning on retaining Scottish armed forces, not sure how that would work though.

Salmond raised an interesting point in the debate with Darling, if the Bank of England refuses to agree to a currency union, Scotland could refuse to take their share of the UK national debt.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 03:30:50 PM
Salmond raised an interesting point in the debate with Darling, if the Bank of England refuses to agree to a currency union, Scotland could refuse to take their share of the UK national debt.
And as Darling pointed out, that would be classed as default. You can't form a new nation and then default. No one will lend you money.

Personally I think Scotland are having a laugh.

They want ...
The Northern Counties of England
All the North Sea Oil and Gas
To use Britain's currency despite being told no
To heap all their debt onto Britain

Land, resources, default, currency abuse. Did they just beat us in a war or something? If I was prime minister I'd sail my very large Navy into the North Sea and secure Scotland's oil and gas against their debt. I'd then heap reparations on them and reunionise their broke state for their own good. The only reason that oil and gas belongs to Great Britain and not the US or Scandinavia or France is because of the bloody great Navy, Britain has paid for to protect it.

It seems to me as though Salmond is trying to divide a nation and bring it to civil war. That sounds like treason. I hope he is hanged. >:(
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on August 27, 2014, 03:36:04 PM
Living in Newcastle, I definitely think the Northern English counties should join Scotland, I'd vote for that.

Salmond's point was that if the Bank of England won't share it's assets, why should it share it's debts?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 03:36:58 PM
Why should it share its assets? The clue is in the name. There is a bank of Scotland, you know. We'd like Scotland to take that with them. :)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on August 27, 2014, 03:39:55 PM
But if the national debt is held by the Bank of England, how can Scotland be responsible for any of it?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 27, 2014, 03:41:30 PM
But if the national debt is held by the Bank of England
It's not. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Debt_Management_Office)

Salmond's point is based on his lack of understanding of how the UK works, or how an independent Scotland would work. Regardless of what Scotland chooses to do, it should get rid of that mountebank before he dicks it up for everyone involved.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 03:44:57 PM
^That. No one cares if Scotland leaves, but their demands are unreasonable. The rest of Great Britain can't accept them. So he needs a rethink and very quickly. If he can't be independent and do his sums without asking for the moon on a stick, then that is the end of the debate.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 03:45:56 PM
Wow. I actually agree with Thork.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on August 27, 2014, 03:53:28 PM
Right pathetic looking, the British Isles will be. The Scottish were always treated much better than the Irish so I don't see much motivation for independence, really.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 03:55:22 PM
Right pathetic looking, the British Isles will be. The Scottish were always treated much better than the Irish so I don't see much motivation for independence, really.
Because inside every Scotsman's head is ...

(http://liz-green.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/FreedomBraveheart-240x300.jpg)

Stupid Hollywood. >:(
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 27, 2014, 04:00:32 PM
Right pathetic looking, the British Isles will be. The Scottish were always treated much better than the Irish so I don't see much motivation for independence, really.
It's the same strain of misinformation that makes Americans hate healthcare. Can't have any of that big government, they only take our money and do nothing!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on August 27, 2014, 06:12:57 PM
Right pathetic looking, the British Isles will be. The Scottish were always treated much better than the Irish so I don't see much motivation for independence, really.
Independence is the motivation for independence.

I just appreciate that they're getting their own vote on it. If being independent is going to screw them over then at least they tried. It's not necessarily all about Braveheart either. Plenty of Scots hated the union in the 1700s and that was quite some time before Mel Gibson.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 27, 2014, 06:18:12 PM
Independence is the motivation for independence.
Do you support Texan and/or Californian secessionists for the same reason?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on August 27, 2014, 06:30:32 PM
Independence is the motivation for independence.
Do you support Texan and/or Californian secessionists for the same reason?
I do. It doesn't matter much to me, but it is slightly different since neither of those states were originally their own independent country with their own citizens and economy.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 06:43:01 PM
Independence is the motivation for independence.
Do you support Texan and/or Californian secessionists for the same reason?
I do. It doesn't matter much to me, but it is slightly different since neither of those states were originally their own independent country with their own citizens and economy.
Why is it slightly different? None of those people are alive today. The only difference is they can say "well it used to be that way, and we want it back that way" as opposed to "its never been that way but we would like it to be that way". The actual process of doing it is the exact same though and it has the exact same reprecussions. If you allow people to go on about 'original' claims you end up with nonsense like Yaakov's Jews being promised Israel 4500 years ago by God.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on August 27, 2014, 07:03:46 PM
Why is it so terrible to let them vote? If the majority don't want to be a part of England then why force them?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 27, 2014, 07:25:55 PM
I do.
Fair enough. For the record, I wasn't planning to criticise that or have any follow-up at all, I was just curious.

It doesn't matter much to me, but it is slightly different since neither of those states were originally their own independent country with their own citizens and economy.
Pedantry, engage! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 27, 2014, 07:45:23 PM
The Scots can certainly prove their claim to independence in previous centries, just as Jews can prove that they have had a continuous presence in Israel for 4500 years. I don't agree with independence for a variety of reasons, but that's another matter.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 07:51:31 PM
Why is it so terrible to let them vote? If the majority don't want to be a part of England then why force them?
Why do they get an option to leave Westminster's tyranny because of geography? Can the home counties get a vote too? The entire country is run to help London in every way possible. Everyone wants away from London, assuming they could afford it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on August 27, 2014, 07:53:40 PM
Right pathetic looking, the British Isles will be. The Scottish were always treated much better than the Irish so I don't see much motivation for independence, really.
Independence is the motivation for independence.

I just appreciate that they're getting their own vote on it. If being independent is going to screw them over then at least they tried. It's not necessarily all about Braveheart either. Plenty of Scots hated the union in the 1700s and that was quite some time before Mel Gibson.

I don't see much motivation but Independence for Independence sake is there. Just not much else. I do like people being allowed vote too. It's really essential to having a modern society.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 08:04:11 PM
I do like people being allowed vote too. It's really essential to having a modern society.
Its pointless. You always end up with two parties that will invariably make all the same bad choices as both are lobbied full time by global companies.

Monarchy is a pretty good system as the richest person is the least likely to be corrupt. There will always be corrupt politicians in every party in power. The problem with Monarchy is you sometimes get a great king (which is better than democracy by far), but sometimes you don't and you can't change that until he is dead.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on August 27, 2014, 08:11:04 PM
I'm not Scottish but I'm guessing their reasons for wanting independence are -

Economic - they think they can run their own economy better than Westminster can

Political - an independent Scotland will never suffer under the yoke of a Conservative government

Cultural - Braveheart

I think economically they may have a point.

http://metro.co.uk/2014/08/27/uk-is-the-most-financially-unequal-country-in-northern-europe-new-research-reveals-4847533/
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on August 27, 2014, 08:13:00 PM
Its pointless. You always end up with two parties that will invariably make all the same bad choices as both are lobbied full time by global companies.

Which should be illegal.

Monarchy is a pretty good system as the richest person is the least likely to be corrupt.

I don't understand how this could possibly be true?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 08:20:46 PM
Monarchy is a pretty good system as the richest person is the least likely to be corrupt.

I don't understand how this could possibly be true?
Let's say I run a company that recycles household plastics. How much would it cost to get the right politician to force every council to provide a bin for this in every home? Bearing in mind a politician earns about £70,000 a year.

Now how much is it going to cost me to do that with King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia?

Kings aren't exempt from corruption, but a good king might never ever be corrupt.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on August 27, 2014, 08:27:52 PM
Monarchy is a pretty good system as the richest person is the least likely to be corrupt.

I don't understand how this could possibly be true?
Let's say I run a company that recycles household plastics. How much would it cost to get the right politician to force every council to provide a bin for this in every home? Bearing in mind a politician earns about £70,000 a year.

Now how much is it going to cost me to do that with King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia?

Kings aren't exempt from corruption, but a good king might never ever be corrupt.

I'm sorry but I'm inclined to disagree. Monarchs have a history of violence and corruption (or giving into such).
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 08:31:31 PM
I'm sorry but I'm inclined to disagree. Monarchs have a history of violence and corruption (or giving into such).
Of course. There are bad kings and they make life miserable. But a good King is far better than any democracy you could hope for.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on August 27, 2014, 08:37:15 PM
I'm sorry but I'm inclined to disagree. Monarchs have a history of violence and corruption (or giving into such).
Of course. There are bad kings and they make life miserable. But a good King is far better than any democracy you could hope for.

Not worth it?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 08:45:36 PM
I'm sorry but I'm inclined to disagree. Monarchs have a history of violence and corruption (or giving into such).
Of course. There are bad kings and they make life miserable. But a good King is far better than any democracy you could hope for.

Not worth it?
Despite being given a vote, I don't get to choose if I want a King or not, so it doesn't matter. And that's one of the main issues. You rarely get a vote on anything. You just pick one bunch of liars or the other.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on August 27, 2014, 09:57:49 PM
Economic - they think they can run their own economy better than Westminster can

I think economically they may have a point.
I cannot claim expertise on the subject, but there have been articles in reasonably reputable magazines that made the case both for Scotland's great economy and predictions of a very rapid decline after declaring independence (e.g. http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21606869-independent-scotland-would-be-rich-country-terrible-prospects-costly-solitude). Personally, I find the latter to be more convincing. But, just like you, I'm not Scottish, and I will probably be leaving the UK in about a year, so I can't say I care too much.

Political - an independent Scotland will never suffer under the yoke of a Conservative government
SNP have literally the same policies, except they don't understand how the current UK and EU governances work.

Cultural - Braveheart
Honestly, I think this is what it's all about. Decades of "ay'm Scottesh, not Britesh" mentality have finally compounded to the point where they think they need independence. I'd say that I'm confident they're in the minority, but I was horribly wrong about UKIP in European Elections, so I no longer trust my guesstimates of political popularity.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on August 27, 2014, 10:48:25 PM
My prediction at the minute is a narrow defeat for the Yes campaign. I have a feeling that the UK government will renege on any promise of increased devolution powers once the referendum is over.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on August 27, 2014, 10:49:49 PM
The Bookies still have 4/1 on a Yes. Its been a near certainty from the off. I think its been left to run its course as a way to kill off the SNP for good.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: jroa on August 27, 2014, 11:07:10 PM
It doesn't matter much to me, but it is slightly different since neither of those states were originally their own independent country with their own citizens and economy.
Pedantry, engage! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas
Don't forget about the California Republic as well. 
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on August 27, 2014, 11:24:14 PM
I really wish California and Texas would secede. They're both terribly obnoxious for different reasons. I don't think California ever would but I can see Texas doing it.

Everyone's crapping on Braveheart, but it's not a bad thing to have pride in your heritage. Wallace was kind of a douche but Robert Bruce was cool and The Battle of Bannockburn was pretty awesome. If Scots still get all misty eyed and swell with national pride over that then good for them. We all love beating the English.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Ghost of V on August 28, 2014, 12:04:26 AM
I really wish California and Texas would secede. They're both terribly obnoxious for different reasons. I don't think California ever would but I can see Texas doing it.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Actually, do.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on August 28, 2014, 01:16:18 AM
I'm sorry but I'm inclined to disagree. Monarchs have a history of violence and corruption (or giving into such).
Of course. There are bad kings and they make life miserable. But a good King is far better than any democracy you could hope for.

Yes, Thork, every person in the world who has taken a basic political structure class can say that a benevolent tyrant is the most efficient form of government. It is also an ideal that has never existed, making it a pointless topic of discussion.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on August 28, 2014, 02:42:32 AM
Shit, if it matters, here in America, when I was a boy, we read about Robert the Bruce in our Reading Class in Third Grade.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Eddy Baby on September 07, 2014, 07:20:43 AM
New poll (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29096458) suggests 51% of Scots will vote 'Yes' to independence. How exciting! I'm currently working with a few die-hard pro-independence Scots so I'll be hearing a lot about this.
Whether you're for it or not, this result certainly means one thing: the result will be representative of actual Scottish wishes. A year or so ago I assumed that the majority of Scots would not bother voting under the assumption that independence would never actually happen.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: fappenhosen on September 07, 2014, 02:18:51 PM
Bullshit. Every election in the history of ever releases a poll that says "oooh its neck and neck now".

I'm starting to suspect that they can't or won't release polls that say "60% in favour of x, 30% don't care, 10% against" because of the backlash they'll get from both camps.

Eg "Your poll means our supporters won't turn out now because they think they've already won" Or, "your poll is a lie because you only asked x,y,z people".
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on September 07, 2014, 02:30:16 PM
There's some reports saying that Tory rebels are planning to overthrow David Cameron if Scotland does go independent. Maybe that will pave the way for Boris Johnson becoming PM?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: fappenhosen on September 07, 2014, 08:59:59 PM
There's some reports saying that Tory rebels are planning to overthrow David Cameron if Scotland does go independent. Maybe that will pave the way for Boris Johnson becoming PM?

Weekend news. Nothing to report. Lets speculate.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 07, 2014, 09:20:59 PM
Maybe that will pave the way for Boris Johnson becoming PM?
(http://i.omgomg.eu/boris)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on September 07, 2014, 09:26:08 PM
He is our future leader. Tremble in awe.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: spanner34.5 on September 10, 2014, 11:08:01 AM
Only a small part of the entity U.K. is allowed to vote in this referendum.

Why can't the rest of us vote, to get rid of the parasitic Scots?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 10, 2014, 11:20:16 AM
Only a small part of the entity U.K. is allowed to vote in this referendum.

Why can't the rest of us vote, to get rid of the parasitic Scots?
It is important that we make them the architects of their own destruction. Its just more funny that way.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: spanner34.5 on September 10, 2014, 11:41:42 AM
Only a small part of the entity U.K. is allowed to vote in this referendum.

Why can't the rest of us vote, to get rid of the parasitic Scots?
It is important that we make them the architects of their own destruction. Its just more funny that way.
Sadly, they might vote NO.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Crudblud on September 11, 2014, 11:46:35 AM
I hope they go for it just to see what happens.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on September 13, 2014, 07:22:26 PM
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/510862057907175425

Bit strange but you never know. I really thought it was closer. If we see No drop below 40%... I won't know what to think.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: fappenhosen on September 13, 2014, 08:29:56 PM
Don't believe everything anything you read on Twitter.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on September 13, 2014, 08:50:27 PM
It's more exciting. They claim it's an ICM poll though... The latest ICM poll does not claim their figures.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 01:06:36 AM
I keep hearing about this but all I see are polls. Do they plan on actually voting or are these just nonsense polls all that ever happens?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 14, 2014, 01:15:40 AM
The referendum will be held on the 18th.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 01:18:38 AM
The referendum will be held on the 18th.

Thanks. I hope they vote for independence. That way the UK will be weakened and the US can pick them off one piece at a time. Only after we annex Canada, of course.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 14, 2014, 01:22:07 AM
The referendum will be held on the 18th.

Thanks. I hope they vote for independence. That way the UK will be weakened and the US can pick them off one piece at a time. Only after we annex Canada, of course.

Good fucking luck. You will have to get past the apology field first. No known force has ever resisted the remorse and guilt imbued in the target of the apology field. Sorry.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 01:23:41 AM
We don't need to do anything fancy. All the president needs to do is say "I am annexing Canada, now the 51st US State." Nothing more. Canada will just shrug and accept it.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 14, 2014, 01:41:28 AM
We don't need to do anything fancy. All the president needs to do is say "I am annexing Canada, now the 51st US State." Nothing more. Canada will just shrug and accept it.

Thank you for demonstrating the staggering depth of your ignorance.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 01:47:11 AM
Thank you for demonstrating the staggering depth of your ignorance.

What? Am I missing something or have I misstated myself? Here, I've found a picture to aid you.

(http://i.imgur.com/t1UFz9F.png)

As you can see, from this picture I obtained from the future, the annexation of Canada is inevitable.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Ghost of V on September 14, 2014, 01:50:58 AM
Also, according to this completely legitimate newspaper from the 40s: Hitler had a dinosaur army.

(http://i.imgur.com/OaPqsAT.jpg)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 14, 2014, 01:52:24 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd2ydct3rBU
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Vindictus on September 16, 2014, 08:43:56 AM
Are there any armchair economists around that can tell me if independence will be good or bad for Scotland? No Thork pls.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lord Dave on September 16, 2014, 05:01:46 PM
Are there any armchair economists around that can tell me if independence will be good or bad for Scotland? No Thork pls.
Bad.
At least in the short term.

What is the currency of Scotland?  The pound.  Can they still use it once they leave?  No one knows.
A couple banks are gonna relocate to London if they split.  So bad news there.

Basically their economy will have to do a major shift and that will not be pleasant for anyone.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Ghost of V on September 16, 2014, 05:15:44 PM
The Scottish are obviously stupid as hell. This goes against the unified ultimate goal of every civilization in the galaxy: unified world government with benefits for everyone. Them seceding and becoming their own nation undermines this completely. That's why I'm purposing that we nuke them before they set us back another 100 years.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Vindictus on September 16, 2014, 07:32:18 PM
What motivates independence then? I have heard that they have some natural resources that will not need to be shared with the UK if they split.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: markjo on September 16, 2014, 07:49:14 PM
I have heard that they have some natural resources that will not need to be shared with the UK if they split.
Their whisky?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on September 17, 2014, 01:44:48 AM
What motivates independence then? I have heard that they have some natural resources that will not need to be shared with the UK if they split.
What motivates anyone to be independent?

There may be practical reasons, but for a lot of people it might just be as simple as patriotism.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Vindictus on September 17, 2014, 02:00:30 AM
The Yes campaigners have to say something when people ask "so why independence?"
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on September 17, 2014, 02:24:08 AM
Scotland for the Scottish?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 17, 2014, 02:48:54 AM
I'm interested in the day Canada or Australia decide to remove themselves from the commonwealth.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Vindictus on September 17, 2014, 02:53:17 AM
It's different for us. The UK constitutes barely any of our trade, we're half a world away from them and I don't particularly care for the Queen or the Monarchy. Doing away with them would save us paying for them when they decide to visit, and would allow an Australian head of state instead of a foreign one.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 02:56:53 AM
I'm interested in the day Canada or Australia decide to remove themselves from the commonwealth.

Why bother?  It gives us priviledged relations with the UK and does not cost us anything really.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 17, 2014, 03:00:32 AM
Why bother?  It gives us priviledged relations with the UK and does not cost us anything really.

If it doesn't bother you to have a head of state that not only isn't from Canada, but was born into power, then I guess there is really nothing to discuss.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 03:22:16 AM
Why bother?  It gives us priviledged relations with the UK and does not cost us anything really.

If it doesn't bother you to have a head of state that not only isn't from Canada, but was born into power, then I guess there is really nothing to discuss.

She is a figurehead and literally does nothing.  Why should it be a problem?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 17, 2014, 03:24:56 AM
She is a figurehead and literally does nothing.  Why should it be a problem?

She has complete control over your current government. Just ask Vindictus about the time she dissolved Australia's entire parliament.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 17, 2014, 03:43:51 AM
Well, she didn't, but the Governor-General representing her did. In 1975, the Prime Minister could not get a clear vote of confidence from Parliament, and Government had essentially ground to a halt. Next thing you know, the Governor-General representing Her Majesty in Australia dissolved Parliament and demanded fresh elections. It was probably the best decision at the time, but it shocked the hell out of the country, many people not knowing that could be done.

Of course, Australia could always reject the monarchy and remain in the Commonwealth as India and several other countries have done. I doubt it will, but it is possible.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 04:13:20 AM
She is a figurehead and literally does nothing.  Why should it be a problem?

She has complete control over your current government. Just ask Vindictus about the time she dissolved Australia's entire parliament.

Never happened in Canada.  If it did, then we would get rid of her.  Its that simple.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 17, 2014, 05:09:09 AM
Never happened in Canada.  If it did, then we would get rid of her.  Its that simple.

No, you wouldn't. Canada is full of political pansies. Again, the US should just annex Canada. It'd make it a lot easier to soak up all of their oil.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 05:12:59 AM
Never happened in Canada.  If it did, then we would get rid of her.  Its that simple.

No, you wouldn't. Canada is full of political pansies. Again, the US should just annex Canada. It'd make it a lot easier to soak up all of their oil.

This coming from a country whose politicians are too scared to admit they are atheists. lol!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 17, 2014, 05:41:01 AM
This coming from a country whose politicians are too scared to admit they are atheists. lol!

Is this what I've reduced you to?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 17, 2014, 06:27:20 AM
The Yes campaigners have to say something when people ask "so why independence?"
Corrupt Westminster government literally hates Scotland and only ever develops London while neglecting anything north of <arbitrarily-picked Midlands city goes here>. And all that is paid for with taxes collected from good, honest, hard-working Scots.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 17, 2014, 11:13:57 AM
This coming from a country whose politicians are too scared to admit they are atheists. lol!

Is this what I've reduced you to?

I did stoop to your level, yes.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: EnigmaZV on September 17, 2014, 07:37:09 PM
What's the electricity generating capacity of Scotland? Would they be okay if the rest of the UK decided not to sell them power after they leave?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 18, 2014, 02:32:29 AM
What's the electricity generating capacity of Scotland? Would they be okay if the rest of the UK decided not to sell them power after they leave?

Seems like a pretty snobby move to allow a country to claim independence and then immediately vilify them for doing so. Why would the UK stop selling power to them?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 10:54:36 AM
What's the electricity generating capacity of Scotland? Would they be okay if the rest of the UK decided not to sell them power after they leave?
The UK doesn't own any power stations. They are all in private hands. This is 2014. Nations are broke and all assets are in the clutches of neo-fueudalists.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 10:56:41 AM
The Yes campaigners have to say something when people ask "so why independence?"
Corrupt Westminster government literally hates Scotland and only ever develops London while neglecting anything north of <arbitrarily-picked Midlands city goes here>. And all that is paid for with taxes collected from good, honest, hard-working Scots.
I can't help notice that there are millions of Scots out on the streets holding mass rallies for YES or NO. On week days. Its very obvious that none of them have jobs. And if they vote YES, they aren't going to have any dole money from hard working English folk.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 12:03:15 PM
hard working English folk.

LOL
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 12:05:27 PM
hard working English folk.

LOL
I am at work right now! I'm not out on the streets drinking Tennents Super and telling people to vote 'Aye' or get a headbutt.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 18, 2014, 12:37:22 PM
hard working English folk.

LOL
I am at work right now! I'm not out on the streets drinking Tennents Super and telling people to vote 'Aye' or get a headbutt.

Clearly working hard  ::)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 12:57:14 PM
I haven't spoken on this subject much, because, although I am English, I live in the USA, don't have a vote, and frankly, don't have as much invested in it as people in Scotland or in the rest of the UK for that matter. But the day is here. By  8.00 pm tonight Central Time, the results are going to start coming in. What are Scots going to do? And I have to admit, this is the most daft thing I have ever heard! 307 years of working out their future together, and now people just want to scrap that, and let it all go to Hell in a handbasket on horseback! If Scotland goes for independence, major banks have already said they will leave for London. London has already said the BPS is not an option for Scotland to use as a currency. Does Scotland for one moment think these people are playing? How stupid can they be?

Scotland can bleat about North Sea oil all they want. But BP has already said there may not be as much there as earlier projections indicated. What happens to Scotland when that non-renewable resource runs out? You can only make so much money with sheep. Only 8% of the UK's population resides in Scotland. Can they maintain the NHS without the taxation of the rest of the UK? I know they want the National Health, and are afraid it could get privatised or altered in some way. I suspect that's unlikely. If Thatcher couldn't do it, what makes them think that Cameron can?

And you know, you can talk about Robert the Bruce and the Battle of Bannockburn all you want, but sitting on past glories doesn't get you a decent standard of living. Just look at the American South with all their crap about "the South shall rise again", and what-not. If Scotland does this, there are no do-overs. No going back. They had better be prepared to stick with it, even when their tiny little country sinks into irrelevance in the modern age.

The sad part is that the rest of the UK, while not sinking as far, will also be less relevant. How will they divy up the national debt, I wonder? Will there still be a seat on the UN Security Council for England, Wales, and N. Ireland? Can the rump UK continue to project an image of strength onto the world stage?

At this point in history, when the West must face the Muslim hordes coming out of the East, to have division in our ranks is ASKING for trouble. And Scotland would do this, not only to the UK, but to every other nation in the Western sphere of influence. What a bunch of selfish bastards the yes-men are! Salmond, you ought to be shot for treason against your Queen.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Tau on September 18, 2014, 01:07:44 PM
I haven't spoken on this subject much, because, although I am English, I live in the USA, don't have a vote, and frankly, don't have as much invested in it as people in Scotland or in the rest of the UK for that matter. But the day is here. By  8.00 pm tonight Central Time, the results are going to start coming in. What are Scots going to do? And I have to admit, this is the most daft thing I have ever heard! 307 years of working out their future together, and now people just want to scrap that, and let it all go to Hell in a handbasket on horseback! If Scotland goes for independence, major banks have already said they will leave for London. London has already said the BPS is not an option for Scotland to use as a currency. Does Scotland for one moment think these people are playing? How stupid can they be?

Scotland can bleat about North Sea oil all they want. But BP has already said there may not be as much there as earlier projections indicated. What happens to Scotland when that non-renewable resource runs out? You can only make so much money with sheep. Only 8% of the UK's population resides in Scotland. Can they maintain the NHS without the taxation of the rest of the UK? I know they want the National Health, and are afraid it could get privatised or altered in some way. I suspect that's unlikely. If Thatcher couldn't do it, what makes them think that Cameron can?

And you know, you can talk about Robert the Bruce and the Battle of Bannockburn all you want, but sitting on past glories doesn't get you a decent standard of living. Just look at the American South with all their crap about "the South shall rise again", and what-not. If Scotland does this, there are no do-overs. No going back. They had better be prepared to stick with it, even when their tiny little country sinks into irrelevance in the modern age.

The sad part is that the rest of the UK, while not sinking as far, will also be less relevant. How will they divy up the national debt, I wonder? Will there still be a seat on the UN Security Council for England, Wales, and N. Ireland? Can the rump UK continue to project an image of strength onto the world stage?

At this point in history, when the West must face the Muslim hordes coming out of the East, to have division in our ranks is ASKING for trouble. And Scotland would do this, not only to the UK, but to every other nation in the Western sphere of influence. What a bunch of selfish bastards the yes-men are! Salmond, you ought to be shot for treason against your Queen.

Does everything have to come down to your holy war against Islam? It's kind of messed up.

Anyway, I wish Scotland only the best regardless of what happens. They'll probably do fine on their own.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Saddam Hussein on September 18, 2014, 02:01:12 PM
You fool, don't reply to him!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 02:09:41 PM
Saddam, go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on September 18, 2014, 03:07:56 PM
International relevance is overrated. Best to be out of the UK and away from the black hole of London.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 03:09:27 PM
TERROR, tell that to the people who built an Empire that controlled 1/3 of the world's surface and 1/4 of the world's population. They are probably rolling in the graves right now.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 03:10:07 PM
TERROR, tell that to the people who built an Empire that controlled 1/3 of the world's surface and 1/4 of the world's population. They are probably rolling in the graves right now.
The Rothschilds? They are Jewish.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 03:13:15 PM
The Rothschilds? What? I wasn't referring to them, although you are right, they are Jewish. I was referring to the fact that Britain, starting in the 16th Century, built an Empire that ended up covering 1/3 of the world's surface and 1/4 of the world's people. They brought civilisation to a good portion of the planet. I mean, seriously, look at Africa. It was a shit-hole before the British got there, and its been a shit-hole ever since they left.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on September 18, 2014, 03:14:05 PM
Most of the British population were in poverty during the Empire period.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 03:18:00 PM
The empire was driven by Rothschild greed. They controlled the bank of England and therefore Britain.

"I care not what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the Empire on which the sun never sets the man who controls Britain's money supply controls the British empire and I control the British money supply" - Nathan Rothschild

And every war was at their behest. On her deathbed the mother of the 4 Rothschild brothers that controlled the banking in France, England, Germany and Austria respectively, said “If my sons did not want wars, there would be none.” - Gutle Schnaper Rothschild

"There is but one power in Europe and that is Rothschild." - 19th century French commentator.

Most wars are because Jews get rich out of them. Not because English people happen to be good at war.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 03:20:14 PM
Here is a nice quote
Quote from: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=4377
1891: The British Labour Leader makes the following statement on the subject of the Rothschilds, “This blood-sucking crew has been the cause of untold mischief and misery in Europe during the present century, and has piled up its prodigious wealth chiefly through fomenting wars between States which ought never to have quarrelled.

Whenever there is trouble in Europe, wherever rumours of war circulate and men’s minds are distraught with fear of change and calamity you may be sure that a hook-nosed Rothschild is at his games somewhere near the region of the disturbance.”

Comments like this worry the Rothschilds and towards the end of the 1800’s they purchase Reuters news agency so they can have some control of the media.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 03:25:10 PM
That is true. In fact, it was the creation of Empire that got them OUT of poverty. The creation of a large British military, and a huge Imperial bureaucracy, and workers at home to maintain the building of all the equipment and provisions and so-forth that all this needed, basically kept Britain running. If it hadn't been for Empire, Britain probably would have ground completely to a halt.

Methinks the man protesteth too much. The power of the Rothschilds is so overblown it is completely stupid. Jews don't get rich off wars. In fact, very few Jews are bankers. Psychiatrists, yes. Attorneys, yes. Bankers no. And France has always been rather anti-Semitic, so the commentator's remark means very little. In fact, when countries go to war, if those countries contain Jews, we have to worry, not about our pocketbooks, but about whether we will be accused of what you say and be taken out and shot.

Notice that the quote you posted contains the blatantly anti-Semitic remark about being "hook-nosed". If he quote had any validity to it at all, such a comment would be unnecessary. The quote could stand on its own without the ad hom.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 03:34:04 PM
That quote was made in the houses of parliament and the MP would be protected by parliamentary privilege. IE - he CAN speak his mind without fear of Rothschild reprisal. And they did have dreadful hook noses brought on by inbreeding. They tried to preserve their wealth by marrying cousins with comedic results. Jews love money more than they love a healthy gene pool, hence so many Jew specific genetic diseases.

God doesn't settle debts with money. ;)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Tau on September 18, 2014, 03:37:55 PM
The Rothschilds? What? I wasn't referring to them, although you are right, they are Jewish. I was referring to the fact that Britain, starting in the 16th Century, built an Empire that ended up covering 1/3 of the world's surface and 1/4 of the world's people. They brought civilisation to a good portion of the planet. I mean, seriously, look at Africa. It was a shit-hole before the British got there, and its been a shit-hole ever since they left.

Africa was really a pretty decent place before the Europeans got involved. I mean, it was certainly primitive, I'd argue that Europe did nothing but damage to Africa.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 03:43:52 PM
THORK, you really are as stupid as you look. Not all Jews have money. Have you ever seen "Fiddler on the Roof"? That is how most Jews lived like in pre-WWII Europe. They lived in shtetls like that one, little towns where they were permitted to live by Gentile governments. They were not permitted to marry non-Jews, by either our religion, OR by Gentile governments. Both non-Jews and Jews forbade the practice.

The intermarriage of Ashkenazi Jews did cause some genetic diseases to be more common within that group, there is no denying that, but it doesn't have a higher incidence rate among weathy Jews vs poor Jews. God, you ARE a fucktard.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 03:44:08 PM
The Rothschilds? What? I wasn't referring to them, although you are right, they are Jewish. I was referring to the fact that Britain, starting in the 16th Century, built an Empire that ended up covering 1/3 of the world's surface and 1/4 of the world's people. They brought civilisation to a good portion of the planet. I mean, seriously, look at Africa. It was a shit-hole before the British got there, and its been a shit-hole ever since they left.

Africa was really a pretty decent place before the Europeans got involved. I mean, it was certainly primitive, I'd argue that Europe did nothing but damage to Africa.
When Christian missionaries arrived in Africa, they couldn't believe that the Africans would spend all day bumming each other in broad daylight in the streets. This was the sign from God that these disgusting people needed some serious God in their lives.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 03:46:12 PM
THORK, you really are as stupid as you look. Not all Jews have money. Have you ever seen "Fiddler on the Roof"? That is how most Jews lived like in pre-WWII Europe. They lived in shtetls like that one, little towns where they were permitted to live by Gentile governments. They were not permitted to marry non-Jews, by either our religion, OR by Gentile governments. Both non-Jews and Jews forbade the practice.

The intermarriage of Ashkenazi Jews did cause some genetic diseases to be more common within that group, there is no denying that, but it doesn't have a higher incidence rate among weathy Jews vs poor Jews. God, you ARE a fucktard.
Enjoy your Tay-Sachs.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 03:47:01 PM
Since I don't have the genetic indicators for it, that was just a stupid remark. Again, you are a fucktard.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on September 18, 2014, 03:49:30 PM
I don't see how a single Jewish family, regardless of their intent, is responsible or representative of all Jewish families?  ???
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 03:58:27 PM
LEMON, they're not. But THORK is a fucktard. I mean, like I said, the majority of Jews lived in shetls and were lower middle class to poor peasants. VERY few have ever been bankers. The few that were and are have always been damned good at it, that is true. Jews have always prized education. When 95% of Europe was illiterate, every Jewish male could at least read Hebrew (and often Yiddish), and sometimes the language of the nation where he lived. That is why monarchs and other ranking government officials sometimes chose Jews to conduct business, simply because they could read, and because they could interact with other Jews living in other countries, and even living in Muslim lands, who were doing the same thing for their leaders.

But again, very few Jews have been bankers. Psychiatrists, yes. Scientists? Doctors? Attorneys? All true. But bankers? Not so much.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 04:01:13 PM
I don't see how a single Jewish family, regardless of their intent, is responsible or representative of all Jewish families?  ???
Usury is a Jewish sin. Something they have a monopoly of and have done for hundreds of years. It is why there are so many Jewish families in the banking industry, despite Yaakov's claim to the contrary. Crone's disease probably effects his perception.

Adding to my little bit of African history, when the missionaries first found Africans (not the smart variety in the north descended from the likes of the Egyptians or Carthaginians who have been trading and breeding with Europeans, those chopped off by the Sahara - the jungle bunnies)  they weren't even sure if they were human. They had to ask scientists to come in and say whether or not they were monkeys and if we could eat them. That's how primitive they were. Apparently the constant bumming was revolting and they did it much like dogs do, to show their dominance over one another.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 04:17:09 PM
THORK, again, you are a fucktard.

QUOTE from Rational Wiki: "20th century claims of Jewish conspiracy
Modern anti-Semitic conspiracy theories depicting an elaborate secret hierarchy of controlling Jewish influences largely take their cue from The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, a 1903 tract purporting to be the manual of a Jewish secret society planning world domination. It was widely circulated in the early 20th century and exposed as a fraud as early as 1921.
Automobile manufacturer Henry Ford further popularized the conspiracy during the 1920s by publishing the Protocols and anti-Semitic articles in his newspaper, The Dearborn Independent, and distributing hundreds of thousands of copies of the Protocols. Ford's anti-Semitic articles were later collected and published as a four-volume treatise entitled The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem.[2]
Ford's enthusiastic endorsement of an international Jewish conspiracy proved extremely popular in Weimar-era Germany. Ford provided substantial financial backing to Adolf Hitler in the 1920's and his writings were a significant influence on the formation of the Nazi party and its grassroots support. By 1933, when the Nazi Party came to power in Germany, The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion was standard reading in German schools. Hitler admired Henry Ford and even emulated him by creating his own automobile, the Volkswagen. Hitler further propagated the Jewish conspiracy in Mein Kampf and other propaganda blaming Jews for the rise of both communism and capitalism, and for Germany's economic decline following the First World War.
Spanish fascist dictator Francisco Franco similarly believed in a conspiracy of Jews, Freemasons and communists intending to establish a world government. He often made reference to a vast "Judeo-Masonic conspiracy."[3]
[edit]Millenarian anti-Semites
Fundamentalist Christians of an anti-Semitic bent have promoted theories that intermingle the End Times with a worldwide Jewish conspiracy where the anti-Christ is believed to be a Jew. Perhaps the most popular promoter of this lunacy was Nazi sympathizer Gordon Winrod.[4] Winrod explained this brand of the conspiracy thusly:
“”A Jewish Antichrist in the end of this age, pre-supposes an international system of Jewish government. There can be little doubt that such a system, based upon the Jewish Money Power, has already been created -- and is ready to step into the open and assume control of world affairs as soon as the time is ripe.[5]
[edit]Modern variations

After the pwning of Nazi Germany, anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, along with anti-Semitism itself, have become increasingly marginalized. However, the myth of an international Jewish conspiracy remains common among right-wing conspiracy theorists, Neo-Nazis, some hardline communists, black supremacists and other racist lunatics, and has been further perpetuated in recent years by these lunatics' rantings through the ease posting of the Internet.
This canard is also common in parts of the Islamic world, especially among Palestinian resistance movements. For example, the founding charter of Hamas asserts the existence of a Zionist conspiracy, working internationally through secret organizations such as the Freemasons as well as the government of Israel, and cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as the embodiment of their plans.[6]
Anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists often focus on Zionism and the founding of Israel, or on denying the existence or scale of the Holocaust and claiming it is a myth fabricated or exaggerated to serve Jewish interests. Believers in an international conspiracy often claim that Jews are secretly running the United States government in collaboration with Israel. They point to examples of wealthy Jews in the financial sector and other industries (the Rothschild family regularly appears in these theories), and to the apparently disproportionate numbers of Jews involved in the movie industry in Hollywood.
If it is even true that Jews are disproportionately represented in business, one must be careful to note that correlation does not equal causation. In the Western world until the 19th century, the largely Christian populations obeyed a religiously-motivated prohibition on charging interest on loans, with the role of banker historically falling on Jewish businessmen who were sometimes even specifically licensed by sovereigns to charge interest. To assume that the disproportionate number of Jews involved in finance proves they're engaging in a Zionist conspiracy through manipulation of capitalism is to ignore the historic role of Jews in banking due to the Christian prohibition against usury.
Individual theories vary widely. Many claim that "international Jewry" is in control of the Freemasons, Illuminati, and other real or perceived secret societies. Often the international Jewish conspiracy is portrayed as an active part of, or the major power behind, that greatest of all conspiracies, the New World Order.
Various anti-Semitic 9/11 conspiracy theories sprang up in the wake of the 9/11 attacks claiming that a Jewish or Israeli conspiracy was behind the attacks, or that the whole incident was faked in order to serve Jewish and Zionist interests. A common myth, spread by racist websites and chain emails, is that hundreds or even thousands of Jewish employees in the World Trade Center were forewarned of the attacks missed work on September 11th 2001.
Variations on these conspiracies that may not appear overtly anti-Semitic often have a latent anti-Semitism about them as the words "Illuminati," "New World Order," "international bankers," "international monetary elite" and "financiers" are Mad Libbed in for "Jews" and "international Jewry."
Much as many religious fundamentalists often use "Goddidit" to explain that which they cannot explain, conspiracy theorists will often use "Jewsdidit.""

QUOTE from Wikipedia: "Antisemitic conspiracy theories[edit]
Antisemitism has, from the Middle Ages, frequently taken on characteristics of conspiracy theory. Antisemitic canards continue to circulate. In medieval Europe it was widely believed that Jews poisoned wells, had killed Jesus, and consumed the blood of Christians in their rituals (despite the fact that human and animal blood are not kosher).

In the second half of the 19th century conspiracists claimed that Jews and/or Freemasons were plotting to establish control over the world. The best-known text alleging the existence of this Judeo-Masonic conspiracy theory is The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. A more modern manifestation of such ideas is the theory of a Zionist Occupation Government.

Various conspiracy theories have been advanced regarding Jews and banking,[1] including the theory that world banking is dominated by the Rothschild family,[2] that Jews control Wall Street,[2] and that Jews control the U.S. Federal Reserve System.[3] A related theory is that Jews control Hollywood or the news media.[4][5]

Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples,[6] and to justify the creation of the State of Israel. For this reason, Holocaust denial is considered to be an antisemitic[7] conspiracy theory.[8]"

So there you go. Thork, you are a fucktard.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 04:17:59 PM
QUOTE from Abraham Foxman of the ADL: "   
Blaming the Jews: The Financial Crisis and Anti-Semitism

Posted: November 13, 2008


Remarks by Abraham H. Foxman
National Director, Anti-Defamation League
Annual Meeting
Los Angeles, CA, November 13, 2008


Jews and Money:  the dirty little secret of anti-Semitism is no secret.  It has been a major factor fueling Jew hatred for hundreds of years, certainly since the Middle Ages.  It is the perception of non-Jews that we who are Jews have extraordinary claims on money.  We magically know how to earn it, to spend it, to make interest off of it, to wheedle it out of Gentiles, and to control international markets with no consideration for the welfare of our native homelands because international Jewry crosses all borders and works exclusively for its own benefit.  There is nothing we will not do to gain money, nor is there any amount too small for a Jew to wish to lay claim to it.  Around the world there is a view that all Jews are rich, and it is a belief so widespread in some countries and communities that no amount of counter-evidence can force a reassessment of its self-evident "truth."  In fact, not only are Jews rich, but we are cheap, and it is because no amount of money is too small for us to grasp that we are able to amass our fortunes.

I say all of this because in a moment of financial crisis such as we are living through today, the old canard rises like a Phoenix.  The good news is that we don't see it being used in mainstream media as an explanation for the current financial meltdown.  The bad news is that remarks and rumors about the pernicious influence of Jews on Wall Street are being broadcast on Internet comment boards and blogs and the usual anti-Semitic Web sites that thrive on conspiratorial Jew-hate.  But while we may take some comfort in seeing the problem limited to extremist margins, its ability to spread like a virus through the World Wide Web puts us on alert.  And on the Web, rumor often becomes "fact" in some people's minds and can threaten to go mainstream.

To give you a good idea of what I'm talking about, here is a small sampling of comments we've found out there in the digital world in the wake of the recent bank failures and the government bailout.  If you'll look at the screen now, we will show some of the comments appearing on the finance message boards of Yahoo.com:

•  What is a GS Jew?  Goldman Sachs?  Jews are greedy, rotten slime balls

• … the same Jewish bankers have been robbing us in this same manner for nearly an entire century now

•  They [Jews] love money nothing else, no faith or religion can be so heartless to their victims

And here, on the screen, are some anti-Semitic images that have appeared on Internet blogs, hate sites and in the Arab media.

A widely circulated rumor on the Internet has suggested that just prior to the collapse of Lehman Brothers and other major investment banks, "$400 billion in funds was secretly transferred to Israeli banks."  Although the story had no basis in fact, it traded in the same kind of conspiracy theory that emerged after the 9/11 terrorist attacks when it was claimed that "4,000 Jews" did not report to work at the World Trade Center that day because they had been given advance warning by the Israeli government.

And although no respectable American leader would engage, at least publicly, in expressing these sorts of stereotypes, or in scapegoating Jews for what has already been called the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, the international scene is different and less comforting.  We find similar commentary, for example, in the Middle East where Jew-hate has become a cottage industry.  If the Arab media is not in the least squeamish about portraying Israeli Jews as hook-nosed Hasidim plotting the blood-drenched destruction of the Palestinian people, or making callous and wholly unwarranted comparisons of Zionism to Nazism, then we can hardly be surprised when political leaders in the region seek political advantage by engaging in overtly anti-Semitic stereotyping in the midst of a worldwide financial catastrophe.

Just a few weeks ago, for example, Hamas spokesman, Fawzi Barhum, blamed what he called the "Jewish lobby" for the global financial crisis.  He went on to say it "controls the U.S. elections and defines the foreign policy of any new administration in a manner that allows it to retain control of the American government and economy."

Perhaps not to be outdone, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in another of his public incitements against the State of Israel, included these remarks about Zionists:  "Although they are a miniscule minority, they have been dominating an important portion of the financial and monetary centers as well as the political decision making centers of some European countries and the US in a deceitful, complex and furtive manner."

I need hardly remind you that characterizations of "furtive" but all powerful Jewish cabals manipulating financial markets and governments bear the stamp of that classic in paranoid, racist literature, The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, contrived by the Czarist secret police around the turn of the previous century.  Although thoroughly discredited as a forgery, it purports to be an account of the secret plans of Jewish leaders seeking to attain world domination in the last years of the nineteenth century.  However, the document is still being used to stir up anti-Semitic hatred. It has taken root in bigoted, frightened minds around the world.
 
The Protocols have become a major source of Arab and Islamic propaganda. Between 1965 and 1967 alone, approximately 50 books on political subjects published in Arabic were either based on the Protocols or quoted from them. In 1980, the Jordanian delegate to the United Nations, spoke about the Protocols as a genuine document. In October of 1987 the Iranian Embassy in Brazil circulated copies of the Protocols, which it said "belongs to the history of the world."  Arab television has run a series based on the idea that the infamous document is a genuine revelation of Jewish attempts to take over the world.  It is the lie that never dies.

But the Protocols are only one in a long line of representations of "the Jew" as one who has a particular relation to money and a secret power that he shares with his brethren.  A quick run-down of earlier precedents – both historical and cultural representations – reminds us that the foundations for the myth of the all-powerful Jewish financial wizard are deeply embedded in world psychology.  So, we have:

• The Medieval Jew, forced by historical circumstance to alone act as moneylender to his Christian neighbor who was not permitted to engage in lending money at interest.  Trade and other occupations were closed to Jews.   This economic dynamic created resentment toward the Jew who already lived as a figure apart from Christian society.

• Shakespeare's Shylock became an enduring image of the venal Jew who would demand his pound of Christian flesh

• Court-Jews throughout the German principalities supplied kings and princes with the credit they required to cover their personal extravagances and their political wars

• Dickens's Fagin, leader of a gang of boy-thieves, became another enduring fictional image of the Jew as greedy and amoral, beyond the realm of Christian rectitude

• The emergence in European capitals of the five sons of Meyer Amschel Rothschild as banking magnates cemented an image of Jewish control of the international levers of finance; it did not matter to the world that Meyer Amschel, who became a Court-Jew by dint of his own industry, had grown up in the closed Jewish ghetto of Frankfurt where every aspect of daily life was under strict control.

These are just a few of the precedents to the Protocols that became embedded in the psyche of the non-Jewish world and formed the fixed image of the Jew as an amoral financial manipulator as if by genetic predisposition.  In other words, we're born that way!  It's like inheriting a disease for which there is no cure.  Nineteenth century literature was littered with Jewish characters whose most prominent personality trait was their greed, though some authors expressed a grudging admiration for the application of intelligence which enabled their Jewish characters to thrive and rise in society.

And unfortunately, ADL finds time and again that contemporary attitudes about Jews, at least within significant percentages of the population both here in America and abroad, are resistant to change.  In our last survey of six European countries conducted in spring 2007, high percentages still believe in the traditional anti-Jewish canard that "Jews have too much power in the business world."  Overall, nearly 35% of all respondents believe this stereotype to be true.  In Hungary, it is 60%.

Similarly, European respondents to the survey still believe in the idea that "Jews have too much power in international financial markets."  Overall, 35% of those surveyed cling to the traditional stereotype; in Hungary, it is 61%.

This is obviously disturbing, for such attitudes persist despite the fact that individual governments and the European Union have condemned anti-Semitism and sought ways to counteract it.  And a recent report by the Pew Research Center's Global Attitudes Project confirms ADL's overall analysis, indicating a doubling of anti-Jewish views in Spain, for example, from 21% to 46% in just the past three years, and a rebound in anti-Jewish sentiment in Poland, to 36% from 27% in 2005, and in Russia, to 34% from 26% in the same year.

The situation in America is decidedly better, but by no means perfect.  Here, stereotypes about "Jewish power" have replaced many of the classical ethnic stereotypes that used to be attributed to Jewish Americans, especially in the day when largely Ashkenazic Jewish immigrant populations, impoverished, lived in crowded urban slums and did piece-work in tenement apartments or were itinerant street vendors.  In those days, aside from the exceptional and more assimilated German Jews of "Our Crowd," the image of the lower working-class Jew – families adhering to strange religious rituals or condemned to the squalor of urban poverty – prevented Jews from easy integration into American society and its institutions.

Today, on the contrary, based on a survey in October 2007, we find a persistent 15% of Americans believe that Jews have "too much power in the U.S." and 20% believe that we have "too much power in the business world."  Even before the current crisis, a year ago, 18% believed that Jews have "too much control/influence on Wall Street" – so we can easily imagine that from these overlapping percentages emerge the kinds of Internet slanders that today tar the entire Jewish community.

Of course like all stereotypes, people predisposed to believe in them seek out only the examples that support their bias, completely disregarding counter-examples.  The nefarious banker is always a Rothschild, never a J.P. Morgan or a Rockefeller.   So when a long-established and well-respected Wall Street firm like Lehman Brothers fails and the financial markets quake, the anti-Semite pounces and latent anti-Semitism awakens:  Aha!  A Jewish firm! It's always the Jews!
 
Never mind that Wall Street was once the fortress of Anglo-Saxon Protestant America that has over recent decades accepted into its ranks a widely diverse population of financial go-getters at all levels, including American Jews, African-Americans, Irish and Italian Americans, Latino-Americans and, in vastly increased numbers, women.

It seems practically impossible to disabuse the 15%-20% of Americans and nearly 40% of Europeans of their entrenched ideas that associate Jews – and Jews only -- with financial savvy and success, so-called sharp dealing, and financial conspiracies from which Jews – and Jews only – emerge victorious.  Besides, anti-Semitism, like most racism, is not rational.  If Jews are not hated for being rich, then we're hated for being communists … or, nearly as bad, we are despised for being bleeding heart liberals!

To have to point out that many a corporate titan or Wall Street financier who profited handily during the recent bubble was not Jewish is to find oneself both stating the obvious and engaging in a childish exercise.  Besides, it doesn't impress the committed anti-Semite who perhaps learns in childhood, at ground level, the truly odious use of the word Jew as a verb, as in "The shopkeeper 'jewed' me down."
 
That many American Jews also now fear for their pension funds or the possibility of foreclosure on their homes escapes the anti-Semitic imagination.  That Jewish social services agencies that feed the hungry, comfort the afflicted, or aid the sick will also feel the tightening of credit or the limits of largesse in an economic downturn is, again, something unimagined by those who simply assume that all Jews walk away from economic panics with golden parachutes or are forever cushioned from the financial stresses of everyday life.

It is my job, ADL's job, and unfortunately the job of Jews worldwide, to remind our fellow citizens that when the markets quake, the ground shakes underneath us as well.

As Americans, we are all undoubtedly going to see harder times and the new President will need our best wishes and our best ideas.  What we can not afford is to blame any one group or profession for the mess we are in.  We must roll up our sleeves and work together to keep our country afloat and to limit the number of people who are in dire economic distress.

Jewish philanthropy and Jewish commitment to social service – the commitment to tikkun olam, to repair the world -- is, after all, the side of the coin that the economic anti-Semite neither sees nor imagines.  All Jews, rich and poor, are called to tzedakah, to acts of righteous giving, each in the way that his or her purse will accommodate.  Don't expect the anti-Semites to notice.  We give charity not for the thanks we receive, but for the good it will do another.  We do it not because we are genetically disposed to generosity, but because it is among the highest values of our heritage, which is indeed rich in ethical principals.

Thank you."
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 04:21:36 PM
Jews always lie about their wealth.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 18, 2014, 04:23:45 PM
THORK will always lie about being a fucktard.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Saddam Hussein on September 18, 2014, 04:36:15 PM
This was a good thread while it lasted.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on September 18, 2014, 05:08:35 PM
It's looking like a no, anyway. I'm kind of upset, since I like the idea of Ireland not being alone with the U.K. on the British and Irish Isles but we'll survive.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: EnigmaZV on September 18, 2014, 05:35:29 PM
What's the electricity generating capacity of Scotland? Would they be okay if the rest of the UK decided not to sell them power after they leave?

Seems like a pretty snobby move to allow a country to claim independence and then immediately vilify them for doing so. Why would the UK stop selling power to them?

Because the Scottish don't want to depend on anyone else for anything, that's why they want to be independent.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on September 18, 2014, 05:39:37 PM
It's looking like a no, anyway. I'm kind of upset, since I like the idea of Ireland not being alone with the U.K. on the British and Irish Isles but we'll survive.
Based on another poll?
I wonder how tired they are of taking polls on the subject.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 05:43:43 PM
The odds on a Yes have gone out to 4:1 from 2:1 earlier in the week. I think the Scots are going to vote for subjugation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 18, 2014, 05:49:45 PM
THORK, you really are as stupid as you look. [...] God, you ARE a fucktard.
[multiple other posts stating similar sentiments]
Yaakov, please keep the personal insults out of your posts. You're welcome to think that Thork/Saddam/everyone is a terrible sub-human, and you're welcome to express these views in Angry Ranting and Complete Nonsense, but this is not something that will be allowed in the upper fora. You've been warned about this before by Junker and you've clearly ignored it, so next time we're gonna have to start handing out short bans.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on September 18, 2014, 05:58:29 PM
It's looking like a no, anyway. I'm kind of upset, since I like the idea of Ireland not being alone with the U.K. on the British and Irish Isles but we'll survive.
Based on another poll?
I wonder how tired they are of taking polls on the subject.

This is what I am reading: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0917/644289-scotland-referendum/ Probably pretty tired. It's the real deal now, though.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on September 18, 2014, 07:29:06 PM
It's looking like a no, anyway. I'm kind of upset, since I like the idea of Ireland not being alone with the U.K. on the British and Irish Isles but we'll survive.
Based on another poll?
I wonder how tired they are of taking polls on the subject.

This is what I am reading: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0917/644289-scotland-referendum/ Probably pretty tired. It's the real deal now, though.
Yeah, that's the one I saw as well.

We'll see how it goes. The Yes campaign seems pretty loud but minorities often do.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: EnigmaZV on September 18, 2014, 07:43:41 PM
The FTSE has been trending upwards, so the market doesn't seem worried about this vote.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on September 18, 2014, 08:14:35 PM
Less than an hour's worth of voting to go before this interminable waste of airtime will be over.

Oh wait, if they vote no then we'll be subjected to hours of negotiations for more powers.

If they vote yes we'll be subjected to hours of negotiations about what iScotland will look like.

Still, there's a rumour that Shetland and Orkney might vote to split from iScotland, that'll be fun.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on September 18, 2014, 08:50:22 PM
I'm really not sure if they should be allowed.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 09:00:04 PM
Live coverage can be viewed here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/live) 2 mins after this post.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on September 18, 2014, 09:24:27 PM
Live coverage can be viewed here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/live) 2 mins after this post.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 09:28:12 PM
If Scotland leave, I'm guessing we change the union jack to remove the blue. So does that mean Australia, New Zealand, Fuji etc will all get new flags too, being as ours is stamped onto theirs?
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Vindictus on September 18, 2014, 09:30:00 PM
It's Fiji.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on September 18, 2014, 09:33:33 PM
I'm actually not really pushed for either side but as an Irishman I can only bring myself to bear the Scottish flag on my avatar, never the Union Jack. So here we are.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 18, 2014, 09:40:40 PM
It's Fiji.
No, they have a corporate sponsor now.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 19, 2014, 01:20:08 AM
Because the Scottish don't want to depend on anyone else for anything, that's why they want to be independent.

What? They're paying for the power. That isn't dependence, it's trade. If that's your idea of an independent country, then no country in the world fits your definition.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rushy on September 19, 2014, 04:25:51 AM
Looking like a pretty solid "no" for Scotland. 46% Yes, 54% No.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 19, 2014, 04:51:16 AM
inb4 angry Scotsmen rioting in London
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Parsifal on September 19, 2014, 05:26:51 AM
Scotland has voted No. (http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results)
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 19, 2014, 05:30:12 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHNfvJc99YY
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Lemon on September 19, 2014, 06:30:18 AM
This is an awful disappointment.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: rooster on September 19, 2014, 07:26:12 AM
Pretty close though. Aw well.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 19, 2014, 07:29:45 AM
The drama of Scotland crashing and burning would've been entertaining, but I think I prefer this outcome anyway.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 19, 2014, 10:50:06 AM
"Please rule us England. We can't do it for ourselves."

How do they look themselves in the mirror this morning? Let's hope the Borg don't turn up. Scotland wouldn't be much help.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on September 19, 2014, 10:56:47 AM
Oh well. Maybe this will lead to increased devolution powers in the UK.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Pete Svarrior on September 19, 2014, 11:03:18 AM
Oh well. Maybe this will lead to increased devolution powers in the UK.
Only in the one country that can actually increase them.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 19, 2014, 11:25:47 AM
"Please rule us England. We can't do it for ourselves."

How do they look themselves in the mirror this morning? Let's hope the Borg don't turn up. Scotland wouldn't be much help.

Thork, architect of all no-win situations.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 19, 2014, 01:47:26 PM
I don't see what you are all fussing about. Scotland, and the UK, and the entire Western world, dodged a bullet. If Scotland had voted to leave, what would that have done to the UK's ability to project itself as a power on the world stage? What would have happened in the UN Security Council? How would they have divided the nation's debt? How would Scotland have paid for the NHS, since they don't have a tax base to do it? Without the much more populous England, how can they keep the NHS afloat in Scotland?

How would they have defended themselves? For that matter, would the rest of the UK been weakened as well? Scotland can bleat about N. Sea oil all it wants, but the fact is that there probably isn't as much there as earlier projections said there were. There's only so much money you can make on sheep.

Remember, Scotland has only 8% of the population of the UK. How can they pay for the social welfare state that they like so much? Lets face it. England pays for the social welfare state, both in England, and in Scotland.

I'm not saying that Scotland isn't important. It is. All I'm saying is that they need to use their brains, and it appears they did yesterday, thank God! Britannia remains strong, united, and free.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Thork on September 19, 2014, 01:56:05 PM
I don't see what you are all fussing about. Scotland, and the UK, and the entire Western world, dodged a bullet. If Scotland had voted to leave, what would that have done to the UK's ability to project itself as a power on the world stage?
Nothing. The Uk would still have nuclear weapons, the bank of England, the financial Capital of the world (London) and the only growing economy in the Eurozone.

What would have happened in the UN Security Council?
Nothing. The Uk would still have a power of Veto. Losing 5 million people from 63 million isn't that big of a deal.

How would they have divided the nation's debt? How would Scotland have paid for the NHS, since they don't have a tax base to do it? Without the much more populous England, how can they keep the NHS afloat in Scotland?
The UK said if we take your share of the debt, you get it written down as a default. So take it, or have your bonds rated as Junk forever more.

How would they have defended themselves? For that matter, would the rest of the UK been weakened as well? Scotland can bleat about N. Sea oil all it wants, but the fact is that there probably isn't as much there as earlier projections said there were. There's only so much money you can make on sheep.

Remember, Scotland has only 8% of the population of the UK. How can they pay for the social welfare state that they like so much? Lets face it. England pays for the social welfare state, both in England, and in Scotland.
These are Scotland's problems.

Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Rama Set on September 19, 2014, 01:58:22 PM
the financial Capital of the world (London)

Breaking new:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/new-york-replaces-london-as-financial-capital-of-the-world-9198274.html
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on September 19, 2014, 06:19:10 PM
I don't see what you are all fussing about. Scotland, and the UK, and the entire Western world, dodged a bullet. If Scotland had voted to leave, what would that have done to the UK's ability to project itself as a power on the world stage? What would have happened in the UN Security Council? How would they have divided the nation's debt? How would Scotland have paid for the NHS, since they don't have a tax base to do it? Without the much more populous England, how can they keep the NHS afloat in Scotland?

How would they have defended themselves? For that matter, would the rest of the UK been weakened as well? Scotland can bleat about N. Sea oil all it wants, but the fact is that there probably isn't as much there as earlier projections said there were. There's only so much money you can make on sheep.

Remember, Scotland has only 8% of the population of the UK. How can they pay for the social welfare state that they like so much? Lets face it. England pays for the social welfare state, both in England, and in Scotland.

I'm not saying that Scotland isn't important. It is. All I'm saying is that they need to use their brains, and it appears they did yesterday, thank God! Britannia remains strong, united, and free.

Population size doesn't translate to higher quality of life. Some of the smallest countries in Europe have great economies, low unemployment etc. San Marino for example.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 19, 2014, 06:34:47 PM
San Marino is a city-state! Come on! Well, ok, a bit larger than a city-state, but not by much. Its primary things are banking and tourism. They also have a TINY population. That is easy to deal with. Scotland has too large a population to be compared to a micro-state, and too small a population to go along with countries like the rest of Europe (or even the rest of the UK for that matter). Be realistic, for God's sake.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: The Terror on September 19, 2014, 06:54:01 PM
Finland has around the same size population as Scotland.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 19, 2014, 07:10:45 PM
And Finland is linked with Sweden, and always has been, on one side, and to a lesser degree, on the other side, Russia. In fact, it was ruled by Russia for quite a time there, and before that, Sweden. The fact that they have successfully made an independent nation work is more to having balls and luck then anything else. Could Scotland follow their example? Maybe, maybe not. Scotland is more intimately connected with England than Finland was to either Sweden or Russia, simply due to the fact that world has gotten a lot smaller than it used to be in an age of Internet communications, and so-forth. If England were to just tell the Scots to bite English balls, could Scotland go it alone without England? I'm not so sanguine on the idea.

Back when it took 20 days or more on horseback to get from Helsinki to Stockholm to get answers to your problems (or Uppsala; I'm not sure what the capital was then), it would perhaps be easier to BE independent. But now? When decisions are made in London and heard about within 30 seconds?

And again, how would Scotland survive economically? They depend on the rest of the UK. You can't do it with sheep alone. And that oil won't last forever. Right now, the National Health is paid for largely by taxpayers in England. Who would replace them? What quality of National Health would Scotland get for its tax currency (I can't say pound, because they wouldn't have been permitted to use it, nor euro, because who knows whether that would have been allowed, and who knows what they might have come up with on their own)?

So I say, thank God, and yes, PizaaPlanet, Rule Britannia!
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: markjo on September 19, 2014, 08:19:30 PM
I don't see what you are all fussing about. Scotland, and the UK, and the entire Western world, dodged a bullet.
Even so, I'd say that a 44% yes vote should be more than just a subtle hint that all is not well in the kingdom.
Title: Re: Scottish Independence
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 19, 2014, 08:41:08 PM
MARKJO, I think you are right on that!