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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2020, 12:47:36 AM »
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;
Where are the good ones?
I'll tell you where they're not: In the news at NYT, MSNBC, LAT OR ABC! So of course you only see the few bad ones. Get some better sources.

You fall short of suggesting any. My primary source is the compilation made by a civil defence lawyer. What difference does it make if the incident is covered by one of these networks too?


Meanwhile, scroll down to the 10th video in this compilation - it's pre-protest, not suitable for anyone of a nervous disposition, but where's the good apple here?

https://imgur.com/gallery/o4foNF6

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna988896

This second link from you isn't even related to the protests and involves police officers trying to convince a man in a hospital bed not to commit suicide. At one point the man starts demanding to be hit in the face and the officer ends up hitting him in the face. A pretty rediculous example from you, involving an absurd situation of a suicidal man demanding to be hit by police officers.

Probably inappropriate to grant that request, but I can't see that this is evidence that police officers go around slapping people in hospital beds in fits of psychosis.
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Online junker

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2020, 01:09:22 AM »
As a Libertarian, I recognize that the smallest minority is the individual. I also think that the police should only exist to protect my right to pursue property. Given that the police/military state routinely violate NAP and do a terrible job of protecting government-guaranteed property rights, they should be abolished and replaced with something that does what the founding documents of the United States of America promised. The method for most effectively replacing the failed police state can certainly be debated.

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Offline honk

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2020, 02:01:13 AM »
The police were invented by the English. The first question you should ask is "why did the British invent police"?

The answer is people really really hated having soldiers on the streets. Armed men frightened them and made them feel unsafe in their villages.

This isn't true at all, unless you're going way the hell back to when the Romans conquered Britain or whenever. British law enforcement essentially evolved from a system of having one or a few constables essentially in charge of any given settlement to constables backed by groups of watchmen who would generally keep order, which eventually led to the creation of semi-professional and professional police forces that could actually investigate crimes and generally follow up on incidents. It had nothing to do with being frightened of soldiers on the streets or their weapons, and you might be interested to learn that British society in the Middle Ages was far less skeptical about the general ownership and use of weapons than it is now. The Assize of Arms of 1181 required landholders to own and maintain armor and weapons, and later on, even yeomen would be required to own a longbow and regularly practice with it.

Quote
So the clever English decided to create an UNARMED police force and have them police by consent.

The Americans, who like copying everything the British do from our laws to our language, decided they too should have a police force ... and then gave those police guns. What's the point? Just put soldiers on the streets. You completely missed the point of what police are for.

Once you have guns, its not policing by consent. In the UK, we don't have a national police force. We only have local police forces. The principle being, you get policed by people in your community and they can't use force and we all agree to it.

I've no idea what America thinks police are for. Just use soldiers. Your police are indistinguishable from soldiers, but for they can get as fat as fuck and have no medicals to pass. They're just fat soldiers.

You're stringing together a lot of unrelated points here. "Policing by consent" is an abstract ideal to strive for, not a hard-and-fast rule. There's no way to measure at what point society at large no longer consents to policing. Even if you have large protests on the streets, how can anyone prove that they speak for or represent society? It's also not conditional on the use of guns. Police can be cruel and abusive, and even kill people, without using guns at all. And even the British police will break out the guns if a situation really calls for it. Also, the bulk of American policing is done through local police departments, same as British policing (although there are in fact national police forces for Britain, same as America).
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2020, 09:19:04 AM »
The good apples are everywhere. Go visit your local police station and stop being a moron! Also, get some better sources.

No, they don't appear to be so, with new examples of casual brutality coming in almost hourly. Where are the good apples who will stop their bad apple colleagues when they abuse the people they're supposed to protect?

The latest is that the LAPD are apparently deliberately injuring protesters when cutting off plastic zip-tie cuffs with OPEN BLADES. Not once, but repeatedly. One protestor has three stitched wounds where the officer cut her hand to the bone. Surely there are TOOLS to do this which are better than open blades? 

"One time is a mistake. Over and over establishes intent."

"Laura Montilla, a 22 year old protester and USC graduate, also witnessed LAPD officers slice a woman's hand before releasing her into an unfamiliar neighborhood in the middle of the night without medical care or a working phone, while she was bleeding. "


You've twice told me to find "better sources" but still have not specified what they are. Sorry, but I'm too far away to consider any American police station as "local".

If you have a friendly "good apple" policeman or woman, by all means invite them over here so that we can show them what the bad apples are doing, and we'll see how good they are.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2020, 09:28:14 AM »
This second link from you isn't even related to the protests

I know. I told you that in my post. "pre-protest", I said ....

and involves police officers trying to convince a man in a hospital bed not to commit suicide. At one point the man starts demanding to be hit in the face and the officer ends up hitting him in the face. A pretty rediculous example from you, involving an absurd situation of a suicidal man demanding to be hit by police officers.

Probably inappropriate to grant that request, but I can't see that this is evidence that police officers go around slapping people in hospital beds in fits of psychosis.

Wow. How totally and utterly heartless do you have to be to simply brush this off as "inappropriate"?

A suicidal man on a hospital bed "asks" to be hit, and the police officer obligingly hits him. Hard.  Tom, can you not see what's wrong with this picture? 

Officers of the law are supposed to be better than that. They're not supposed to take literally the requests of someone in a disadvantaged state. They're charged with his protection, not his torture. They're supposed to be trained professionals. Supposed to show restraint.

It's not "inappropriate", it's malicious. It's cowardly. It's spiteful. And it's totally wrong, despite what the man said or asked for.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2020, 11:37:35 AM »
Police are what stand between us and a lawless society. Anyone who thinks we should get rid of them deserves the catastrophic results that would follow. Luckily for them, there are smarter people in control of policy. For now.

Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)

This is nonsense.  The vast majority of people don't commit crimes because they think it's wrong.

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2020, 02:04:38 PM »
Police are what stand between us and a lawless society. Anyone who thinks we should get rid of them deserves the catastrophic results that would follow. Luckily for them, there are smarter people in control of policy. For now.

Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)

This is nonsense.  The vast majority of people don't commit crimes because they think it's wrong.
And you know this how? Even if you could somehow know that to be true, it doesn't make any difference. I don't really care why they commit crimes only that they do commit crimes. This is most definitely not nonsense. It's possible that some police forces need some revamping as Junker suggests although he seems to be painting them all with the same brush which doesn't make much sense. All the police in the world or even in NA are not a homogeneous group.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2020, 02:12:20 PM »
The good apples are everywhere. Go visit your local police station and stop being a moron! Also, get some better sources.

No, they don't appear to be so, with new examples of casual brutality coming in almost hourly. Where are the good apples who will stop their bad apple colleagues when they abuse the people they're supposed to protect?

The latest is that the LAPD are apparently deliberately injuring protesters when cutting off plastic zip-tie cuffs with OPEN BLADES. Not once, but repeatedly. One protestor has three stitched wounds where the officer cut her hand to the bone. Surely there are TOOLS to do this which are better than open blades? 

"One time is a mistake. Over and over establishes intent."

"Laura Montilla, a 22 year old protester and USC graduate, also witnessed LAPD officers slice a woman's hand before releasing her into an unfamiliar neighborhood in the middle of the night without medical care or a working phone, while she was bleeding. "


You've twice told me to find "better sources" but still have not specified what they are. Sorry, but I'm too far away to consider any American police station as "local".

If you have a friendly "good apple" policeman or woman, by all means invite them over here so that we can show them what the bad apples are doing, and we'll see how good they are.
Did you visit your local police station? No? Just opted to sit on your couch watching ABC, and MSNBC instead? Also, I question most of your stories because they come from highly biased and unreliable sources. But even if we were to take them at face value, all the stories you mentioned only involve a few police persons. There are thousands and thousands more who aren't doing these kind of things.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 02:24:11 PM by Boots »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2020, 03:26:31 PM »
Did you visit your local police station?

No, I thought I made it clear that there is no American police station "local" to me.

Also, I question most of your stories because they come from highly biased and unreliable sources.

You might have questioned them, but I've seen little in terms of disproving them.

They come from the general public. The TV stations whose programming then broadcasts those videos are not the source of the video. The general public - you know, the folk who PAY the police via their taxes, and whom the police are supposed to protect and serve ...   by all means, name a "non-biased and reliable source" to see the examples of "thousands and thousands" that you refer to below.

But even if we were to take them at face value, all the stories you mentioned only involve a few police persons. There are thousands and thousands more who aren't doing these kind of things.

... which sorta makes it worse. When the bad apple is beating the living sh*t out of a passer-by with a riot baton, when two other bad apples simply walk up and JOIN IN the beating, three against one, for no apparent reason, then if the good apples are standing around letting them do this, they cease to be the good ones.

The "only a few" is currently well over 350 incidents strong, and this seems likely to grow as the police forces track down those who were at protests, and seek to take revenge on them in the coming days and weeks. That seems to have started already in some areas....
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2020, 03:47:41 PM »
Did you visit your local police station?

No, I thought I made it clear that there is no American police station "local" to me.

Also, I question most of your stories because they come from highly biased and unreliable sources.

You might have questioned them, but I've seen little in terms of disproving them.

They come from the general public. The TV stations whose programming then broadcasts those videos are not the source of the video. The general public - you know, the folk who PAY the police via their taxes, and whom the police are supposed to protect and serve ...   by all means, name a "non-biased and reliable source" to see the examples of "thousands and thousands" that you refer to below.

But even if we were to take them at face value, all the stories you mentioned only involve a few police persons. There are thousands and thousands more who aren't doing these kind of things.

... which sorta makes it worse. When the bad apple is beating the living sh*t out of a passer-by with a riot baton, when two other bad apples simply walk up and JOIN IN the beating, three against one, for no apparent reason, then if the good apples are standing around letting them do this, they cease to be the good ones.

The "only a few" is currently well over 350 incidents strong, and this seems likely to grow as the police forces track down those who were at protests, and seek to take revenge on them in the coming days and weeks. That seems to have started already in some areas....
  Yes I do question your sources and no I'm not going to the work of disproving them. As I already said, even if they are all true and have been accurately reported they still don't support the ultimate conclusion you are making.


Thousands and thousands of good police makes it worse?? So bad police are bad but thousands of good police makes it worse? We're done. You're clearly thoroughly drunk on the MSM koolaid.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2020, 03:56:21 PM »
Thousands and thousands of good police makes it worse??

If they stand around and watch the bad ones, yes. If they stand around and form a circle around the bad ones to block cameras while the bad ones beat the sh*t out of the public, yes.

The good ones cannot stand by and do nothing. If they do this, they are the bad ones, too.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2020, 04:06:00 PM »
Thousands and thousands of good police makes it worse??

If they stand around and watch the bad ones, yes. If they stand around and form a circle around the bad ones to block cameras while the bad ones beat the sh*t out of the public, yes.

The good ones cannot stand by and do nothing. If they do this, they are the bad ones, too.
Thousands and thousands of good police are not standing around watching a few bad police do bad things. Any more than you are. Maybe YOU'RE BAD.

 
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2020, 04:26:39 PM »
We're done.

You said we're done, now you're back. No second chances. If you're done, then stop typing.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2020, 04:56:59 PM »
The police were invented by the English. The first question you should ask is "why did the British invent police"?

The answer is people really really hated having soldiers on the streets. Armed men frightened them and made them feel unsafe in their villages.

This isn't true at all, unless you're going way the hell back to when the Romans conquered Britain or whenever. British law enforcement essentially evolved from a system of having one or a few constables essentially in charge of any given settlement to constables backed by groups of watchmen who would generally keep order, which eventually led to the creation of semi-professional and professional police forces that could actually investigate crimes and generally follow up on incidents. It had nothing to do with being frightened of soldiers on the streets or their weapons, and you might be interested to learn that British society in the Middle Ages was far less skeptical about the general ownership and use of weapons than it is now. The Assize of Arms of 1181 required landholders to own and maintain armor and weapons, and later on, even yeomen would be required to own a longbow and regularly practice with it.

Quote
So the clever English decided to create an UNARMED police force and have them police by consent.

The Americans, who like copying everything the British do from our laws to our language, decided they too should have a police force ... and then gave those police guns. What's the point? Just put soldiers on the streets. You completely missed the point of what police are for.

Once you have guns, its not policing by consent. In the UK, we don't have a national police force. We only have local police forces. The principle being, you get policed by people in your community and they can't use force and we all agree to it.

I've no idea what America thinks police are for. Just use soldiers. Your police are indistinguishable from soldiers, but for they can get as fat as fuck and have no medicals to pass. They're just fat soldiers.

You're stringing together a lot of unrelated points here. "Policing by consent" is an abstract ideal to strive for, not a hard-and-fast rule. There's no way to measure at what point society at large no longer consents to policing. Even if you have large protests on the streets, how can anyone prove that they speak for or represent society? It's also not conditional on the use of guns. Police can be cruel and abusive, and even kill people, without using guns at all. And even the British police will break out the guns if a situation really calls for it. Also, the bulk of American policing is done through local police departments, same as British policing (although there are in fact national police forces for Britain, same as America).

I think we are now having issues because we will start to use conflicting wiki entries.

In England we had an event in 1819. It was called Peterloo. Basically 60,000 people were demonstrating and the cavalry drew their swords and charged at them. People didn't want cavalry charging at them. It was a political shit storm and so a few years later after everything was put in place in 1829, we start policing by consent and the metropolitan police is formed. The government knew it couldn't keep using the army to police people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre

Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z9f4srd/revision/3
The growth of popular protest convinced many that a professional police force was required. Events such as the Peterloo Massacre in 1819 showed the weaknesses of relying on the army to deal with public protests.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2020, 08:32:49 PM »

This is nonsense.  The vast majority of people don't commit crimes because they think it's wrong.
And you know this how? Even if you could somehow know that to be true, it doesn't make any difference.

It does make the difference if you want to assert that police are the only thing standing between us and a lawless society in complete disregard for the fact that most of society trundles on without involving police in the slightest.

Quote
I don't really care why they commit crimes only that they do commit crimes.

You should care why they do because crimes are committed for a variety of reasons and unfortunately there is tremendous differences in the response of law enforcement and the justice system in general between them. 

Quote
It's possible that some police forces need some revamping as Junker suggests although he seems to be painting them all with the same brush which doesn't make much sense. All the police in the world or even in NA are not a homogeneous group.

Great, so let's not come up with broad general solutions.  I think solving specific problems with specific solutions is the only thing that will really work.  But you should be aware that you began by making the statement that police are all that stand between us and lawlessness which is broad and treats police as a homogeneous group.

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Offline honk

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2020, 05:04:48 AM »
I think we are now having issues because we will start to use conflicting wiki entries.

In England we had an event in 1819. It was called Peterloo. Basically 60,000 people were demonstrating and the cavalry drew their swords and charged at them. People didn't want cavalry charging at them. It was a political shit storm and so a few years later after everything was put in place in 1829, we start policing by consent and the metropolitan police is formed. The government knew it couldn't keep using the army to police people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre

Quote from: https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z9f4srd/revision/3
The growth of popular protest convinced many that a professional police force was required. Events such as the Peterloo Massacre in 1819 showed the weaknesses of relying on the army to deal with public protests.

I'll grant that incident probably did contribute to the formation of the police, but it's awfully misleading to conflate general everyday policing with the response to a large protest, as if that was the norm back then. The article you've quoted even talks about the direct forerunners to professional police departments being the thief-takers and the Bow Street Runners. It wasn't the army, not in the general, everyday sense of policing. I definitely agree with you that American police are far too militarized, but it really isn't analogous to the history of British law enforcement. The two countries have had very different histories and very different cultures. Speaking of which, the genie is out of the bottle as far as guns and arming the police in America goes. It's great that most British cops don't need to carry guns because they aren't very common over there. That's not the case in America.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2020, 08:29:15 AM »
Austin PD forges fake "support" for their officers ...

https://imgur.com/gallery/Q91JY0g

Forensics would have a field day, I'm sure...
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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2020, 09:41:54 AM »
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2020, 09:47:43 AM »
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2020, 09:51:44 AM »
That's 45 mins or so of video with a couple of folks talking to camera.

You could at least summarise in your own words what they say, and what you think the videos actually say which is pertinent to the thread....

However, didn't you say yesterday you were "done" ???
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