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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2020, 10:03:10 PM »
Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)

See the Deeply Broken video I just posted. "The whole "bad apples" cliche, is that the bad apples spoil the whole bunch", and when the bunch is spoiled, you have no good apples left.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2020, 10:08:03 PM »
You are resorting to opinion articles by the liberal media hack column editors that police are "out of control", despite you yourself have no evidence except some clips of police performing non-lethal solutions on violent protestors and their accomplices.

That's just petty name-calling of the sources, and, as I pointed out, although I've only posted a small sample here, those who are logging them have logged well over 300 instances (EDIT - 353 at 23.20 UK time, Saturday). One of the compilers is a civil defence attorney, not a journalist.

The 75-year old who got pushed over and sustained a head injury in Buffalo was non-violent. So was the old guy with the cane. There's loads more examples of non-violent folk being subjected to spiteful, malicious beatings and other mistreatment by those with the uniform.

Ironic that the protests against police brutality result in yet more police brutality.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 10:20:58 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2020, 10:13:12 PM »
"Two Buffalo police officers were charged on Saturday with felony assault after a video showed officers shoving a 75-year-old man who was protesting outside City Hall on Thursday night, officials said.

“We had two of our police officers who crossed the line,” the Erie County district attorney, John J. Flynn, told reporters after the arraignment. “My job is to prosecute those who have violated the law, plain and simple. And I believe, and I’m alleging, that these two officers violated the law.”"


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/nyregion/Buffalo-police-charged.html?action=click&algo=top_conversion&block=trending_recirc&fellback=false&imp_id=253976433&impression_id=397067641&index=1&pgtype=Article&region=footer

As pointed out in the video, this was not a "heat of the moment" thing, this was just callous bullying. As the camera moves left after they've pushed him over and walked past, they grab ONE other guy, and beyond that, the street is almost DESERTED. No cause for this, no reason, it's just spite and malice.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2020, 10:22:35 PM »
Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)

See the Deeply Broken video I just posted. "The whole "bad apples" cliche, is that the bad apples spoil the whole bunch", and when the bunch is spoiled, you have no good apples left.
Yeah and that's BS fed to people like you by the likes of MSNBC and NY Times. Those cops should not have done that. They were suspended without pay and there may be further consequences. Even if the consequences are not as severe as we think they should be, in no way does that incident imply that the "whole bunch" is spoiled. There are thousands of interactions with the public taking place rn, and most of them don't involve pushing an old man to the ground. But these are the types of stories MSNBC and NY Times want to focus on because it creates the idea in ____ minds like yours that this is what the police in general are doing. And this gains them clicks and also helps further their agenda.

BTW there was an incident beyond what the cameras were showing that the police were focusing on. It doesn't justify what they did, but it's probably not as blatant as it looks in that video.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2020, 10:30:22 PM »
Yeah and that's BS fed to people like you by the likes of MSNBC and NY Times. Those cops should not have done that. They were suspended without pay and there may be further consequences.

They've been charged now, I'm glad to say. Even if, as you suggest, not all cops are doing this, why are so many standing around and letting it happen? Why aren't the good ones stopping the bad ones?

EDIT - the two officers emerged from the courthouse, having been charged, and were applauded by their colleagues as they left the building. They are supporting two officers who committed felony assault on a non-violent 75-year old man. Think about that. 


OK, here's more of the same from the LA TImes. Why are you so keen to shoot the messenger, rather than looking at the message?

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-06/twitter-videos-lawyer-police-use-of-force-protesters

So many further examples have piled up in the lawyer's mailbox that he confesses to being unable to keep up.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 10:38:17 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2020, 10:46:07 PM »
American's don't seem to like learning lessons from history.

The police were invented by the English. The first question you should ask is "why did the British invent police"?

The answer is people really really hated having soldiers on the streets. Armed men frightened them and made them feel unsafe in their villages.

So the clever English decided to create an UNARMED police force and have them police by consent.

The Americans, who like copying everything the British do from our laws to our language, decided they too should have a police force ... and then gave those police guns. What's the point? Just put soldiers on the streets. You completely missed the point of what police are for.

Once you have guns, its not policing by consent. In the UK, we don't have a national police force. We only have local police forces. The principle being, you get policed by people in your community and they can't use force and we all agree to it.

I've no idea what America thinks police are for. Just use soldiers. Your police are indistinguishable from soldiers, but for they can get as fat as fuck and have no medicals to pass. They're just fat soldiers.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2020, 10:53:23 PM »
Yeah and that's BS fed to people like you by the likes of MSNBC and NY Times. Those cops should not have done that. They were suspended without pay and there may be further consequences.

They've been charged now, I'm glad to say. Even if, as you suggest, not all cops are doing this, why are so many standing around and letting it happen? Why aren't the good ones stopping the bad ones?

EDIT - the two officers emerged from the courthouse, having been charged, and were applauded by their colleagues as they left the building. They are supporting two officers who committed felony assault on a non-violent 75-year old man. Think about that. 


OK, here's more of the same from the LA TImes. Why are you so keen to shoot the messenger, rather than looking at the message?

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-06-06/twitter-videos-lawyer-police-use-of-force-protesters

So many further examples have piled up in the lawyer's mailbox that he confesses to being unable to keep up.
Because it has become perfectly obvious that the "messenger" is a very biased organization who are perfectly willing to deliberately misinform the public in order to achieve their own goals. If this organization wanted to, they could go out and report only on all the thousands of incidents where police are doing outstanding work. Then people like you would probably think the police were awesome people who never did wrong. In reality they are mostly good with a few bad ones and sometimes they make mistakes. For which they should be held accountable. And they are as you pointed out.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2020, 11:15:16 PM »
In reality they are mostly good with a few bad ones and sometimes they make mistakes.

2 out of 57 were bad here, and the good ones are actively supporting the bad, both by walking off their team in protest, and turning up to applaud them as they leave the courthouse where they were charged.

Where's the good in that?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2020, 11:28:05 PM »
Do you really think that the police weren't shouting and ordering that man to move before they pushed him? It says in the video that there were five arrests made in that protest. Are you really going to cry and tell us that guy was 100% innocently standing there in a  protest asking for directions to the convenience store?

You are whining about some pushing, a rather lame argument in the face of violent protests and homicides. Those are violent protests and the police need to move and contain people without having their backs to people who potentially have weapons. He likely was not following orders in a serious situation. The police then acted to secure the area when he fell and the people around the scene, rather than get shot by them.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 11:34:20 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2020, 11:32:26 PM »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2020, 11:36:12 PM »
Do you really think that the police weren't shouting and ordering that man to move before they pushed him? It says in the video that there were five arrests made in that protest. Are you really going to cry and tell us that guy was 100% innocently standing there in a  protest asking for directions to the convenience store?

You are whining about some pushing, a rather lame argument in the face of violent protests and homicides. Those are violent protests and the police need to move and contain people. He likely was not following orders Ina serious situation.

Have you watched the video? The whole video?

"in the face of violent protests and homicides"

The protests are ABOUT the brutality of the homicide of George Floyd, an unarmed citizen accused of nothing more than having a fake $20 bill, and asphyxiated by three officers, one of whom cut off his air supply and flow of blood to his brain. 

The protestors are being brutalised BY the police while protesting this police brutality.....
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2020, 11:43:27 PM »
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;

https://6abc.com/joseph-bologna-philadelphia-police-inspector-to-face-charges-following-incident/6234214/

https://imgur.com/gallery/mdyRfFh

Where are the good ones?

Another clownish example. The video starts immediately with an officer hitting someone in the head with a batton but we see nothing about what leads up to that event.

Did that person shout "we have a gun and are going to kill you?" Did he assault the officer?

We don't know, because this video starts immediately with a police batton beating to the head, like the officer just decided to randomly assault someone in a fit of psychosis. Is that what you really think happens? Psychosis?

Again, that is not likely to have happened in these selective clips. And again, we see zero evidence of random unprovoked violence by police.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 01:00:57 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2020, 11:45:51 PM »
"The amount of support these officers are receiving is really telling of what challenges we really face when it comes to police reform. We as citizens need to engage our officers in dialogues to make them understand what the taxpayers expect of them and what is and isn't acceptable behavior.

I understand officers have an incredibly taxing job, but their positions of power mean they absolutely must be held to a higher standard than this."


Borrowed from someone else, referring to the assembled officers applauding the two who were charged with felony assault on the 75-year old.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2020, 11:52:50 PM »
Tumeni, you are not even American, and are trying to criticize America by criticizing clips of police shoving or hitting people with zero other information about the events which led up to that.

You are claiming that police officers essentially had a fit of psychosis and are randomly assaulting innocent babies of the public who are only incidentally involved in a violent riot/protest. Absurd.

A pretty illogical argument, TBH. I can't see that you have provided sufficient evidence for these fits of psychosis
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 11:55:00 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2020, 11:55:51 PM »
we see zero evidence of random unprovoked violence by police.

That's the very reason Bologna has been charged. He's supposed to show control, even when shouted at. He's supposed to show restraint. Beating civilians about the head with a baton is not control nor restraint. Which is why he has been charged.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2020, 12:01:57 AM »
In reality they are mostly good with a few bad ones and sometimes they make mistakes.

2 out of 57 were bad here, and the good ones are actively supporting the bad, both by walking off their team in protest, and turning up to applaud them as they leave the courthouse where they were charged.

Where's the good in that?
Those police do a lot of good work that keep people like you safe. You're lucky policy is being made by people smarter than yourself. At least for now.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2020, 12:03:09 AM »
we see zero evidence of random unprovoked violence by police.

That's the very reason Bologna has been charged. He's supposed to show control, even when shouted at. He's supposed to show restraint. Beating civilians about the head with a baton is not control nor restraint. Which is why he has been charged.

He was charged out of an emotionnal call for him to be charged, based on the selective video in question

That article also says:

Quote
"FOP Lodge 5 President John McNesby says inspector Bologna's dedication to the city is unmatched.

"Inspector Bologna is one of the most dedicated hard working individuals in the city of Philadelphia," said McNesby. "And he's been out there doing what he's supposed to be doing, protecting the city."

McNesby says Krasner has rushed to judgment in filing these criminal charges without a complete and thorough investigation.

"We're going to back Inspector Bologna all the way through and have all available resources available from myself and this FOP to him."

So there is not yet a through investigation on the details of the incident.

You should be aware that anyone can press charges after an assault. And it's up to the DA to proceed with pressing charges and starting an investigation. That investigation will determine whether there were other mitigating factors in the assault.

But here you are passing judgement and claiming that a respected police inspector had a fit of psychosis and randomly hit someone on the head with a batton. Unlikely.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 12:05:22 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2020, 12:05:42 AM »
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;
Where are the good ones?
I'll tell you where they're not: In the news at NYT, MSNBC, LAT OR ABC! So of course you only see the few bad ones. Get some better sources.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2020, 12:12:12 AM »
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;
Where are the good ones?
I'll tell you where they're not: In the news at NYT, MSNBC, LAT OR ABC! So of course you only see the few bad ones. Get some better sources.

You fall short of suggesting any. My primary source is the compilation made by a civil defence lawyer. What difference does it make if the incident is covered by one of these networks too?


Meanwhile, scroll down to the 10th video in this compilation - it's pre-protest, not suitable for anyone of a nervous disposition, but where's the good apple here?

https://imgur.com/gallery/o4foNF6

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna988896
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2020, 12:17:44 AM »
And the number of bad apples continues to grow;
Where are the good ones?
I'll tell you where they're not: In the news at NYT, MSNBC, LAT OR ABC! So of course you only see the few bad ones. Get some better sources.

You fall short of suggesting any. My primary source is the compilation made by a civil defence lawyer. What difference does it make if the incident is covered by one of these networks too?


Meanwhile, scroll down to the 10th video in this compilation - it's pre-protest, not suitable for anyone of a nervous disposition, but where's the good apple here?

https://imgur.com/gallery/o4foNF6

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna988896
The good apples are everywhere. Go visit your local police station and stop being a moron! Also, get some better sources.
“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.” - George Orwell