A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« on: May 23, 2020, 07:19:38 PM »
Hello friends.

Have any of you noticed that any "conspiracy" theory tends assume the government is hiding something.  Maybe wrongfully?

Is it possible that things do "Transpire" but for natural reasons?   Such and such dispute arose from natural phenonena, and not b/c somebody planned out?



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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2020, 07:28:24 PM »
What im trying to say is tgat everyone, including government and other "power brokers" may not be so bad.  And perhaps info isnt released bc of honest concerns about the welfare if the people.  In fact, I think alot of info is released, but bc of confirmation bias, im not open to see it (like literally not physically see it in my news feed).  I remember not believing Antartica doesnt exist, and nit being able to find direct evidense it does.  I changed my mind on that, and suddenly I see photos of trips, toyrs, and people on kayaks beneath yhe glaciers like it hapoens everyday.

Do we want the truth????   I think thats the only barrier to entry.   
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2020, 09:37:10 PM »
Most conspiracy theories are patterns that don't exist or random mistakes people make.  Because let's face it, the government is made up of people like you and me just doing their jobs.  We can say "Oh the president knows everything that happens" but in truth, he can't.  If Bob from the department of agriculture's Nebraska subsection puts in the wrong address for crop dusting assistance, he won't know.  But you bet someone's going to claim "Chemtrails!" because a plane dusted the wrong address.

Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2020, 09:50:18 PM »
Hmm...  mistakes do happen 👍
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Offline Crudblud

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2020, 06:19:43 AM »
Conspiracy theories are folk tales of the information age, offering the reassurance that things are connected and that someone is in control, as well as a sense of purpose and the warmth of community (whatever form it may take) to disaffected and frightened people in a detached, atomised, Godless global society. It doesn't matter whether there actually is a plot to test biological agents on the populace using aircraft, to flood the Western nations with dark-skinned foreigners who will outbreed and replace the white majority, or even to hide the shape of our planet, the belief that such plots exist offers comfort through the idea that the world is a controlled and personally fathomable system rather than an ultimately purposeless layering of en masse self-interested decision making and incompetence atop more or less random events. In effect they are a bastion against nihilism for people who have precious little else.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2020, 03:04:12 PM »
It stands that any group or entity more powerful than you is going to attempt to control you, just like you personally attempt to control the less powerful things around you - household objects, pets, plants.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2020, 07:05:34 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2020, 05:59:28 PM »
It stands that any group or entity more powerful
than you is going to attempt to control you, just like you personally attempt to control the less powerful things around you - household objects, pets, plants.

This is false.
The Hells Angels are not attempting to control me.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2020, 06:01:52 PM »
It stands that any group or entity more powerful
than you is going to attempt to control you, just like you personally attempt to control the less powerful things around you - household objects, pets, plants.
Ah yes, Justin Gaethje and the rest of the UFC is constantly trying to control me.

Jokes aside, This isn't a conspiracy, government do control what they govern. That's why it's a government.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2020, 07:34:51 PM »
It stands that any group or entity more powerful than you is going to attempt to control you, just like you personally attempt to control the less powerful things around you - household objects, pets, plants.

This is false.
The Hells Angels are not attempting to control me.

"Numerous police and international intelligence agencies classify the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club as a motorcycle gang and contend that members carry out widespread violent crimes, including drug dealing, trafficking in stolen goods, gunrunning, and extortion, and are involved in prostitution."

This group is more powerful than many people, and does exert its control over people. They may not yet be powerful enough to control your daily life, personally, but does exert control over the people and things it is capable of controlling.

Quote
Ah yes, Justin Gaethje and the rest of the UFC is constantly trying to control me.

Jokes aside, This isn't a conspiracy, government do control what they govern. That's why it's a government.

A single UFC fighter isn't powerful enough to control your life, but there is little doubt that he controls the things he is powerful enough to control - his pets, children, opponents in the ring, your perception of him, etc. The UFC organization, on the other hand, is powerful enough to control many things of its employees, and how you perceive them, and does exert that control.

Again, these are mostly examples of organizations controlling the things which they are powerful enough to control. An example of an organization not controlling your life merely means that they are not yet powerful enough to do that, and stands as evidence that they can and do readily control the things which they are powerful enough to control.

If we admit that organizations and entities tend to control as much as their power allows, we must admit that we are being controlled by organizations or entities capable of that.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2020, 08:59:29 PM »
Quote
If we admit that organizations and entities tend to control as much as their power allows, we must admit that we are being controlled by organizations or entities capable of that.
there's nothing to admit, it's obvious that there is a hierarchy and governments are literally here to control and govern so it's no revelation and it's not a conspiracy that this is happening. Rules and laws are put in place to keep individuals and full communities of people controlled. The question isn't whether or not we are being controlled, it's whether those who control us are doing things they aren't supposed to and covering it up/hiding it from us.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2020, 09:30:37 PM »
What Tom fails to realize is not that they want to control me, per se, they want control over their lives.  This is something all organisms want: Even Tom.

The more control you have, the safer you are.  The more powerful you are, the more you need to control to be safe.

Ex: I need little control to keep myself safe and happy.  The president of America needs a hell of a lot more.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2020, 09:46:01 PM »
Since you agree that the government would seek to control us, the only thing left to discuss is whether the government would be inherently good in that control. Why should we believe that the government is inherently good?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2020, 09:58:26 PM »
Since you agree that the government would seek to control us, the only thing left to discuss is whether the government would be inherently good in that control. Why should we believe that the government is inherently good?
Why should we believe that the government is inherently bad either though? What a strange question to ask.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2020, 10:18:41 PM »
The only way your position that government conspiracies are generally loony and false can work is to believe that the government is inherently good and working in favor of our interests rather than its own.

So again, why should we believe that?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2020, 10:37:11 PM »
The only way your position that government conspiracies are generally loony and false can work is to believe that the government is inherently good and working in favor of our interests rather than its own.

So again, why should we believe that?
You really love putting words in to peoples mouths. Not all conspiracies are false and not all governments are the same. So sure, some governments (and dictatorships in general) are bad and some do conspire, but that doesn't mean it's always the case and it doesn't mean every conspiracy is true if one is. You really need to stop being so presumptuous.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Boots

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2020, 03:56:31 AM »
If you find yourself eagerly looking for the next conspiracy theory and you think Alex Jones is the most trusted name in news, you're probably an idiot.

If you dismiss every conspiracy theory out of hand and deny that there are any, you're probably not that bright either.

Conspiracies do exist but they're not as common as Infowars would have you believe.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 04:57:56 AM by Boots »
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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2020, 10:44:16 AM »
Have any of you noticed that any "conspiracy" theory tends assume the government is hiding something.  Maybe wrongfully?

Is it possible that things do "Transpire" but for natural reasons?   Such and such dispute arose from natural phenonena, and not b/c somebody planned out?
This argument appears to be both self-fulfilling and self-defeating. By definition, a "conspiracy theory" that doesn't involve a conspiracy is not a conpiracy theory.

There are plenty of alternative theories which do not involve a conspiracy. Alternative medicine (and its many, many fields) comes to mind. It's not particularly surprising that you'll find a lot of conspiracies in conspiracy theories.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2020, 01:19:39 PM »
The only way your position that government conspiracies are generally loony and false can work is to believe that the government is inherently good and working in favor of our interests rather than its own.

So again, why should we believe that?
You really love putting words in to peoples mouths. Not all conspiracies are false and not all governments are the same. So sure, some governments (and dictatorships in general) are bad and some do conspire, but that doesn't mean it's always the case and it doesn't mean every conspiracy is true if one is. You really need to stop being so presumptuous.

Oh, so "some" governments are bad and lie. Can you tell us which ones are good and selfless which ones are bad and selfish?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2020, 04:50:33 PM »
The only way your position that government conspiracies are generally loony and false can work is to believe that the government is inherently good and working in favor of our interests rather than its own.

So again, why should we believe that?
You really love putting words in to peoples mouths. Not all conspiracies are false and not all governments are the same. So sure, some governments (and dictatorships in general) are bad and some do conspire, but that doesn't mean it's always the case and it doesn't mean every conspiracy is true if one is. You really need to stop being so presumptuous.

Oh, so "some" governments are bad and lie. Can you tell us which ones are good and selfless which ones are bad and selfish?
No, can you? Are you trying to drive some point home here? I've pretty said my point clearly. governments are made to control, conspiracies can sometimes turn out to be true, some turn out to be false. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue against.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: A note on "Conspiracy" theories
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2020, 07:24:50 PM »
The only way your position that government conspiracies are generally loony and false can work is to believe that the government is inherently good and working in favor of our interests rather than its own.

So again, why should we believe that?
You really love putting words in to peoples mouths. Not all conspiracies are false and not all governments are the same. So sure, some governments (and dictatorships in general) are bad and some do conspire, but that doesn't mean it's always the case and it doesn't mean every conspiracy is true if one is. You really need to stop being so presumptuous.

Oh, so "some" governments are bad and lie. Can you tell us which ones are good and selfless which ones are bad and selfish?

From what I can ascertain in my short time on this site, Tom, you and I likely share a lot of philosophy about government in general.

As an American (and also one who thoroughly enjoys reading history), I am pretty skeptical of all governments in general - they will invariably seek greater and greater control and authority over time (perfect example: the US presidency which is supposed to be one co-equal branch of three, but in many respects has become "more equal" than the other two).

But the way I would put it, is not that people in government are bad and lie, but rather they are self-interested in their roles, like all people, which leads to mission creep in their organizations, and small power grabs individually that over time lead to something unrecognizable from the standpoint of 1776.

In short, it's due to the issues brought to light by Public Choice Theory:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice

Now, with that preamble out of the way, there IS a simple way we can tell which governments are "good" and which ones are "bad" in my view:

How much individual liberty (including economic liberty) is available to each individual?  Some nations offer very little, some nations offer a lot more. None offer absolute freedom (although in my view, that's also because pure freedom fails at the outset, since someone free to murder you means you are not free, and so pure freedom is a logical contradiction).  But in practical terms, there are governments that offer immense amounts of freedom relative to virtually any other century in history, and relative to many others currently in power.

Examples of relatively freer countries on the far side of the spectrum include the US, Canada (and the former UK commonwealth nations in general), Taiwan, Japan, S. Korea, and most of what is termed "Western Europe." 

Examples of relatively much less free countries on the other side of the spectrum include China, N. Korea, Iran, Uzbekistan, Myanmar, Libya, Sudan, Algeria, Egypt.

There's a wide variety of country types making it difficult for even those who study these things to classify them. But you can look into how effective governments are at establishing and maintaining the institutions that lead to more freedom (e.g., rule of law, independent judiciary, smaller government, freedom of speech, assembly, and religion, etc.).