Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2020, 06:20:59 PM »
Quite agree that BAW6B (aircraft reg G-ZBKI) did not fly over Greenland on 26/27 July.  I don't think anyone claimed it did. 

Yes they did. They did it here:
[EDIT 2] And now, London time 12:28 (BST) BAW6B has neatly crossed the tip of Greenland and most of the North Atlantic, just approaching the coast of Ireland.  Scheduled to arrive at Heathrow 14:05. I live underneath the flight path so I will be able to see it come in.

In any case, check the history for this aircraft and please come back and tell everyone that it crossed Greenland.  Or not.  And remember, we are talking here about G-ZBKA on 27/28 July. 

The website indicated that it crossed Greenland. Unfortunately there have been instances, which I have already documented, in which the flight was shown as having crossed Greenland just to have been deleted and replaced with a flight which has not crossed Greenland.
Now that I have answered your question, Can you answer mine? What is a flight that we can take in which the path that we fly would support one of the two presented FE models?

First, you say you have documented instances of altered records.  You haven't.  You've looked at the most recent flight and thought that it referred to previous flights.  Have you actually looked at the history on, say FR24?  (You'll probably have to look under the alternate Flight Number of BA286).  Over the past 12 hours we've observed BAW6B/BA286 on FR24, identified it by registration, and one of today's posters has actually seen it through binoculars.  Will you please promise that you will check history on this particular flight for the next couple of days and advise the Forum when it gets altered?

In answer to your question I'm not sure I understand.  You want me to propose a flight which supports one of 2 FE models?  How can I do that when I personally don't support any FE model? 




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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2020, 06:45:17 PM »
Here is a model of the earth in which the earth is represented as a flat plane:
https://www.bing.com/maps

I will call this FE model 1


Oh no, not that again. The Mercator projection is not a flat Earth model. On a flat Earth, you can't go forever in a straight line and never reach an edge. The Mercator projection used by Bing, Google maps and pretty much every online map doesn't have a western or eastern edge, it just loops indefinitely.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2020, 09:22:52 AM »

Here is a model of the earth in which the earth is represented as a flat plane:
https://www.bing.com/maps

I will call this FE model 1

There is this thing in law called beyond reasonable doubt. The key word here is reasonable. It is the standard against which evidence is judged. Take out the word reasonable and nobody is convicted of anything ever.

You have been shown, endless times, documentation from Microsoft, the authors of Bing, that they use a spherical globe model with a particular radius and that they use spherical trigonometry (specifically the Haversine formula) with this model. You challenged the evidence and we were able to demonstrate a 100% correlation between distances on Bing maps and distances calculated based on the spherical Haversine formula, using Microsoft's own published figures for Earth's radius.

The evidence you were shown passed the threshold for "beyond reasonable", carried on mounting up and left "beyond reasonable" as a distant spec in the rear view mirror. Bing is simply not using an FE model.

12 people like you on a Jury trial, consistently applying your criteria for judging evidence, would collapse the justice system.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2020, 03:00:03 PM »
First, you say you have documented instances of altered records.  You haven't. 
Will you please promise that you will check history on this particular flight for the next couple of days and advise the Forum when it gets altered?

You are right. I didn't realize that, when i clicked the link, it shows the most recent BAW6B flight. Because I clicked the link the next day the flight path that I saw was from the following day. Human error.

In answer to your question I'm not sure I understand.  You want me to propose a flight which supports one of 2 FE models?

Let's start here. Which, of the two proposed FE models that I have shown, do you think most closely resembles the world you live in?


Oh no, not that again. The Mercator projection is not a flat Earth model. On a flat Earth, you can't go forever in a straight line and never reach an edge.

you can if that FE model is infinite. There are infinite flat earth models.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 03:03:44 PM by iamcpc »

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2020, 03:06:12 PM »
The evidence you were shown passed the threshold for "beyond reasonable", carried on mounting up and left "beyond reasonable" as a distant spec in the rear view mirror. Bing is simply not using an FE model.

Then everyone else can use Bing and you can use https://earth3dmap.com/

Same model, different documentation and levels of interactivity.

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2020, 04:11:21 PM »
First, you say you have documented instances of altered records.  You haven't. 
Will you please promise that you will check history on this particular flight for the next couple of days and advise the Forum when it gets altered?

You are right. I didn't realize that, when i clicked the link, it shows the most recent BAW6B flight. Because I clicked the link the next day the flight path that I saw was from the following day. Human error.

In answer to your question I'm not sure I understand.  You want me to propose a flight which supports one of 2 FE models?

Let's start here. Which, of the two proposed FE models that I have shown, do you think most closely resembles the world you live in?



First of all thank you for acknowledging that you had misinterpreted your interrogation of the Flight Record; I think you will earn respect for that from the other posters. 

On the map thing, I'm sorry if it sounds like a cop-out, but neither.  (Possibly the Polar, but only because we were looking at a Northeren Hemisphere question. If we were discussing a flight from New Zealand to Chile, the Polar would be useless). 

The problem with all of these projections is the distortion of the image, generally the further from the centre of the Polar Map, or from the equator of the Mercator Projection, more distortion is introduced.  Look at Australia in the Polar Map; if it was that long and thin, don't you think the Aussies would have noticed? 

Its like if you went to the barbershop and he asked where you want him to stand when he cuts your hair.  If he stands in front of you he can see your fringe, but round-your-ears is distorted; he needs to see these from the side.  And so on.  Its inevitable if you try to project a 3D object onto a 2D plane.  Thats why its called a projection. 

For maps, personally, I use Google Maps in the Globe mode.  You get your area of interest centre-screen and its going to show the minimum amount of distortion, but distortion is still there and increases as you look towards the edges of the image. 

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2020, 06:11:58 PM »
First of all thank you for acknowledging that you had misinterpreted your interrogation of the Flight Record; I think you will earn respect for that from the other posters. 

Thanks. Now I would really appreciate it if you would answer my question. Which of the two proposed FE models do you believe most closely resembles the planet that you live on and why?

If you won't answer that question would you answer the questions?

1. Does the planet that you live on have a South Pole?
2. Does the planet that you live on have a great ice wall encompassing the entire planet?



If you think the earth does have a south pole and no great perimeter ice wall then then you would believe that a bing map type interactive FE model would most accurately depict the planet that you live on.


The problem with all of these projections is the distortion of the image, generally the further from the centre of the Polar Map, or from the equator of the Mercator Projection, more distortion is introduced.  Look at Australia in the Polar Map; if it was that long and thin, don't you think the Aussies would have noticed? 

This is why the more modern online maps have an interactive scale which changes depends on where you look and how far in you zoom.


« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 06:16:20 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2020, 08:50:39 AM »
First of all thank you for acknowledging that you had misinterpreted your interrogation of the Flight Record; I think you will earn respect for that from the other posters. 

Thanks. Now I would really appreciate it if you would answer my question. Which of the two proposed FE models do you believe most closely resembles the planet that you live on and why?

I know these questions were primarily aimed at DuncanDoenitz, but here are my answers:

Both models 1 & 2 represent the earth equally well, because they are both projections of the same globe model and no projection is intrinsically better than any other projection. There are some instances where one projection is more useful than another, so for example travelling in arctic regions, 2 would be better than 1. There are plenty of occasions when another projection altogether would be a better choice than either of these, so for example, for planning a VFR flight in the UK, I'd want a transverse mercator. Bing would be completely and dangerously useless for planning such a flight.

The Bing map is dynamic and has zoom and pan features and a measuring tool, but it would be perfectly possible to add these to map 2. Google maps for example when zoomed out can be displayed as either a web mercator (identical to Bing) or as a 3D globe, and you can re-project either way from one to the other so there's no reason Google (or Bing) couldn't add other map projections as well, if they thought it was worth doing. When you zoom in or measure in Google maps, it doesn't matter whether you start from a zoomed out globe or a web mercator, you end up with the same result. Similarly, since you can easily project a web mercator to a globe, Bing could easily add a 3D globe view if they wanted.

If you won't answer that question would you answer the questions?

1. Does the planet that you live on have a South Pole?
Yes
2. Does the planet that you live on have a great ice wall encompassing the entire planet?
No

If you think the earth does have a south pole and no great perimeter ice wall then then you would believe that a bing map type interactive FE model would most accurately depict the planet that you live on.

No, they are both equally useless for areas around the south pole. A south polar azimuthal equidistant would be a much better choice.


The problem with all of these projections is the distortion of the image, generally the further from the centre of the Polar Map, or from the equator of the Mercator Projection, more distortion is introduced.  Look at Australia in the Polar Map; if it was that long and thin, don't you think the Aussies would have noticed? 

This is why the more modern online maps have an interactive scale which changes depends on where you look and how far in you zoom.

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2020, 09:23:14 AM »
With Robin 100%. 

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2020, 10:14:33 AM »
I don’t think either proposed FE model or any proposed FE map fits our world. The often demonstrated weaknesses for journeys south of the tropics, such as to and from French Polynesia, the routes which jump from one side of the world to another to travel a thousand miles and other difficulties mean the FE models and maps are of no practical use. A major rethink is needed.

Offline edby

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2020, 11:36:19 AM »
1. Does the planet that you live on have a South Pole?
2. Does the planet that you live on have a great ice wall encompassing the entire planet?

Yes to 1.

Do you agree that lines of longitude converge at the South Pole?

This is why the more modern online maps have an interactive scale which changes depends on where you look and how far in you zoom.
On this 'interactive scale' thing, consider a map that is so large that one mile on the earth's surface = 1 mile on the map's surface. You could lay the whole map on top of the world so that every point on the map would be on top of the corresponding point in the world. But then the scale would not be variable.

If on the other hand this map had a variable scale, there would no longer be a 1:1 correspondence between points on the map, and points in the world. In which case, would the map accurately represent the surface it was intended to represent?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 11:44:28 AM by edby »

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2020, 02:54:47 PM »
Both models 1 & 2 represent the earth equally well

How so? One represent the earth as an interactive surface with ice at the north pole and the south pole and a second one represent the earth as a flat circle with a great ice wall around the perimeter. They are two totally different models of the earth.


If you won't answer that question would you answer the questions?

1. Does the planet that you live on have a South Pole?
Yes
2. Does the planet that you live on have a great ice wall encompassing the entire planet?
No

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that a model of the earth with a south pole and no perimeter ice wall is a more accurate representation of the planet that you live on. Why is that? How can you say that a model of our earth with a great ice wall and no south pole is just as accurate as a model of our earth with no great ice wall and a south pole??


I don’t think either proposed FE model or any proposed FE map fits our world.

I'm not asking which one fits our world. I'm asking which one most closely fits our world.


The often demonstrated weaknesses for journeys south of the tropics, such as to and from French Polynesia, the routes which jump from one side of the world to another to travel a thousand miles and other difficulties mean the FE models and maps are of no practical use. A major rethink is needed.

one of these models has a much easier time with these journeys. As a matter of fact almost all flights are mapped and tracked on one of these models.


1. Does the planet that you live on have a South Pole?
2. Does the planet that you live on have a great ice wall encompassing the entire planet?

Yes to 1.

Do you agree that lines of longitude converge at the South Pole?

If you believe that the planet has a south pole then I would like to point out that only one of the flat earth models I have shown on this thread has a south pole.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 03:04:57 PM by iamcpc »

Offline edby

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2020, 03:44:07 PM »
1. Does the planet that you live on have a South Pole?
2. Does the planet that you live on have a great ice wall encompassing the entire planet?

Yes to 1.

Do you agree that lines of longitude converge at the South Pole?

If you believe that the planet has a south pole then I would like to point out that only one of the flat earth models I have shown on this thread has a south pole.
So on the model which has a South pole, do lines of longitude converge at the South pole?

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2020, 04:02:18 PM »
Both models 1 & 2 represent the earth equally well

How so? One represent the earth as an interactive surface with ice at the north pole and the south pole and a second one represent the earth as a flat circle with a great ice wall around the perimeter. They are two totally different models of the earth.


Well I don't consider the earth itself to have an interactive surface with a scale that changes as you move across it, so I don't particularly care that Bing has an interactive scale. If anything, that makes me less likely to think it represents any kind of reality. Secondly, where exactly is the south pole on a Bing map? It's not a single point, it's a horizontal line that stretches all the way along the base of the map whether you are zoomed in or not. That's no more realistic to me than the rim of the circle on model 2. At least with map 2 I can put a pin in the exact location of the north pole. Map 2 doesn't say anything about there being a wall, it's a flat 2D surface. Sure, many FErs add the ice wall part, but that's not something you can deduce just from looking at the map.

Also, I don't consider 1&2 to be different models at all, just different presentations of the same information. In much the same way you can create a spreadsheet with a bunch of numbers and then create line charts, pie charts, bar charts etc. etc. all representing the same data in different ways. All presentations are valid, you choose the most appropriate for the circumstance.


If you won't answer that question would you answer the questions?

1. Does the planet that you live on have a South Pole?
Yes
2. Does the planet that you live on have a great ice wall encompassing the entire planet?
No

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that a model of the earth with a south pole and no perimeter ice wall is a more accurate representation of the planet that you live on. Why is that? How can you say that a model of our earth with a great ice wall and no south pole is just as accurate as a model of our earth with no great ice wall and a south pole??

Both models are accurate in some respects and inaccurate in others. Model 1 is good around the equator and poor around the poles. Model 2 is good around the north pole, poor around the equator and poor around the south pole. How am I supposed to come to any kind of conclusion about which model is better than the other?

I can use some GIS software to zoom in as much as I want to on a particular area of a map using either model/projection and I can use haversine to calculate distances on either model (and they will agree with each other). I know this isn't instant and interactive, but who cares? I certainly don't.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 04:08:58 PM by robinofloxley »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2020, 04:09:04 PM »
On this 'interactive scale' thing, consider a map that is so large that one mile on the earth's surface = 1 mile on the map's surface. You could lay the whole map on top of the world so that every point on the map would be on top of the corresponding point in the world. But then the scale would not be variable.

There would not be a scale.
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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2020, 04:20:51 PM »
On this 'interactive scale' thing, consider a map that is so large that one mile on the earth's surface = 1 mile on the map's surface. You could lay the whole map on top of the world so that every point on the map would be on top of the corresponding point in the world. But then the scale would not be variable.

There would not be a scale.
Yes there would, it would be 1. But that is not my point. The scale would have to be 1 at every point, in order to preserve the 1:1 mapping from every point in the world to the corresponding point on the map.

Or to make the point in another way. (Suppose) I have a globe in my study, and I make a 1:1 map of it by wrapping a strong sheet around it. Can I then unwrap the sheet and lay it on the flat surface of my desk without tearing or cutting the sheet?

I think iamcpc's claim is that the Bing map with its variable scale can represent a surface which is perfectly flat. Although it's never been quite clear what his claim is.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 04:27:01 PM by edby »

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2020, 05:16:07 PM »
Well I don't consider the earth itself to have an interactive surface with a scale that changes as you move across it, so I don't particularly care that Bing has an interactive scale.

But it is. When you see something very far away that is very small your brain knows that, because that small thing is very far away, the scale of the item is large. When I see the mountains, which are just a few inches tall off on the horizon my brain passively understands. When I look out the airplane window at 30,000 feet I know the scale of the surface of the earth has changed and, what was a very small distance, from the airplane is a much larger distance from the surface of the earth. If I took a picture from the airplane and drew a scale on it that scale would be much different than the scale from a picture taken at ground level.

If anything, that makes me less likely to think it represents any kind of reality.

I just gave an example of how, in the real world, a video of the surface of the earth should have an interactive scale.



Secondly, where exactly is the south pole on a Bing map?



It's not a single point, it's a horizontal line that stretches all the way along the base of the map whether you are zoomed in or not.

That's funny because I didn't see a line. I saw an area of land on Antarctica when i search for south pole on bing.

That's no more realistic to me than the rim of the circle on model 2. At least with map 2 I can put a pin in the exact location of the north pole. Map 2 doesn't say anything about there being a wall, it's a flat 2D surface. Sure, many FErs add the ice wall part, but that's not something you can deduce just from looking at the map.

If you search for south pole Antarctica on Bing you don't see a map. Even if you did see a line that would not change the fact that one model has a south pole and no ice barrier perimeter and one does.

Also, I don't consider 1&2 to be different models at all, just different presentations of the same information.

You are seriously arguing semantics about the word "model". Fine then. What "presentation style" do you believe most closely depicts the planet that you live on.

"presentation style" 1:

-depicts the earth as a defined area with a defined edge
-depicts the earth as having a great ice wall around this perimeter edge
-depicts the earth as not having a south pole
-not supported by know travel paths/times
-not taught in schools all over the world as a "presentation style" of the surface of the earth


"presentation style" 2
-depicts the earth as an interactive surface with no defined edge
-depicts the earth as not having a great ice wall (partly because there is no perimeter edge)
-depict the earth has having a south pole
-supported by know travel paths/times
-taught in schools all over the world as a "presentation style" of the surface of the earth

Both models are accurate in some respects and inaccurate in others. Model 1 is good around the equator and poor around the poles. Model 2 is good around the north pole, poor around the equator and poor around the south pole. How am I supposed to come to any kind of conclusion about which model is better than the other?

I thought you just said they were not models? Now you are saying they are models. The Bing map "presentation style" has an interactive scale which makes it much more accurate both around the poles and around the equators

I can use some GIS software to zoom in as much as I want to on a particular area of a map using either model/projection and I can use haversine to calculate distances on either model (and they will agree with each other). I know this isn't instant and interactive, but who cares? I certainly don't.

Can you show me, online, where anyone has made an interactive map out of the flat disk, great ice wall, "presentation style" of the surface of the earth

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2020, 11:17:57 PM »

(Tumeni said "There would not be a scale.")

Yes there would, it would be 1. But that is not my point. The scale would have to be 1 at every point, in order to preserve the 1:1 mapping from every point in the world to the corresponding point on the map.

1:1 is not "scaling" anything up or down. It's life-size. Actual size. No scaling is involved.   

Or to make the point in another way. (Suppose) I have a globe in my study, and I make a 1:1 map of it by wrapping a strong sheet around it. Can I then unwrap the sheet and lay it on the flat surface of my desk without tearing or cutting the sheet?

No, of course you cannot. You cannot unwrap the surface of any 3D object and lay that flat without doing this.

I think iamcpc's claim is that the Bing map with its variable scale can represent a surface which is perfectly flat. Although it's never been quite clear what his claim is.

It's perfectly (EDIT clear) why the variable scale is required, it's just a question of deciding whether to go through the rigmarole of explaining it all in longhand...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 07:47:34 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2020, 06:53:34 AM »
The Mercator projection is a 2D representation of a sphere. It has never been anything else since it was invented. If you think it's a correct representation, and if you agree that distances calculated with the haversine formula are correct, then you agree the Earth is a globe, that's all there is to it.

Looking at a Mercator projection and thinking the Earth is actually flat is a bit like looking at these representations of a dice and thinking a dice is actually flat:

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2020, 07:40:49 AM »
I have not seen evidence that Web Mercator (Web-based WGS84 used in Google/Bing Maps) is based on a sphere. Various statements suggest otherwise -  https://wiki.tfes.org/World_Geodetic_System_1984
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy