Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2020, 03:29:26 PM »
[EDIT] As I write, check out BAW6B, San Francisco-London, currently over the Hudson Bay and heading directly for Greenland. Using the ‘measure distance’ function on Google maps, the flight appears to be on the great circle route.

[EDIT 2] And now, London time 12:28 (BST) BAW6B has neatly crossed the tip of Greenland and most of the North Atlantic, just approaching the coast of Ireland.  Scheduled to arrive at Heathrow 14:05. I live underneath the flight path so I will be able to see it come in.



this website shows that it didn't fly over greenland:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B

Offline edby

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 05:02:56 PM »
[EDIT] As I write, check out BAW6B, San Francisco-London, currently over the Hudson Bay and heading directly for Greenland. Using the ‘measure distance’ function on Google maps, the flight appears to be on the great circle route.

[EDIT 2] And now, London time 12:28 (BST) BAW6B has neatly crossed the tip of Greenland and most of the North Atlantic, just approaching the coast of Ireland.  Scheduled to arrive at Heathrow 14:05. I live underneath the flight path so I will be able to see it come in.



this website shows that it didn't fly over greenland:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B

That very website shows it did fly over Greenland on 24 July, the date of my post.

Checking all the flights on that page suggest a wide variety of routes.

[edit] Also check out KL601 Amsterdam to Los Angeles, currently flying right over Greenland.

Also VIR681B, London to LA.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 05:51:27 PM by edby »

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 07:10:54 PM »
Didn't see the need to comment at the time, but as iamcpc doesn't believe it, I can confirm watching all of edby's listed flights Friday on FR24, and currently watching those he's listed today. 

Also KL605 now, Amsterdam-San Francisco, over Greenland. 

I personally flew Belfast-Newark about 4 years ago, over Greenland.  Bright sunshine, got photos.  And the return flight?  Who knows.  Like most trans-Atlantic eastbound it was at night.  Been up all day, couple of vodkas and a skinny airline blanket; most people wouldn't notice if it routed over Antarctica. 

But thats another story. 

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 08:42:11 PM »
That very website shows it did fly over Greenland on 24 July, the date of my post.

So which version of the flight is correct? Is it the 7/24 version of the flight or is it the current version of the flight?

This really makes me question this website because it appears that the flight path changes after the plane lands. I wonder why that is?

Since this flight path appears to have some sort of deviation which support both of the FE models shown on this post which is a flight path that can be taken and observed which would only support one of the two FE models?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 09:00:49 PM by iamcpc »

Offline edby

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 09:14:21 PM »
[..]
This really makes me question this website because it appears that the flight path changes after the plane lands. I wonder why that is?
[..]
To be clear, there are two websites. I used flightradar 24, but your website corroborates the information.

Don't know about flight paths changing after landing. Where is your evidence?

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 09:26:43 PM »
So which version of the flight is correct? Is it the 7/24 version of the flight or is it the current version of the flight?

Do airliners always follow the exact same route regardless of other considerations? No they don't, unless you'd rather they flew through tropical storms (obviously none over Greenland...), severe thunderstorms (like the one that put me off the intended route from Bangor, Maine to LAX), strong headwinds (hey, we landed 2 hours late, I'm gonna sue) or severe icing risks (quite possible over Greenland). It's not as simple as always flying a "great circle" route.

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 10:11:26 PM »
That very website shows it did fly over Greenland on 24 July, the date of my post.

So which version of the flight is correct? Is it the 7/24 version of the flight or is it the current version of the flight?

This really makes me question this website because it appears that the flight path changes after the plane lands. I wonder why that is?



You do understand that a Flight Number is not unique?  Most flights on popular routes take place several times a week, under the same Flight Number.  So you need to specify which date you are talking about for a particular Flight Number.  If you think the "flight path changes after the plane lands", then you are looking at the same Flight Number on a different day. 

The route will be different each day.  For the North Atlantic, flights are channelled into one of 4 North Atlantic Tracks, defined by the American and European Air Traffic Agencies.  Airlines submit their planned flights to the agency the day before, and the agencies select the routes based on where planes want to go, ideal Great Circle route, weather, and jet-stream activity.  The Tracks go with the jetstreams eastbound and avoid them westbound.  As the jetstreams are a natural pnenomonon, the routes vary day to day. 

Aircraft aren't obliged to follow the official tracks, but it makes economic sense to do so.  If you wanted, say, to fly a rigid Great Circle route eastbound then you can; your ground track will be a shorter distance, but you might be covering the ground around 25% slower than everyone else, so it will probably take longer and use more fuel.  Quite often, of course, the jetstreams do come close to a Great Circle, and then you get to see Greenland. 

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 11:38:51 PM »
You do understand that a Flight Number is not unique? 

How many flights from SF to london have flight number BAW6B which arrived today? Both of these show a flight path not over Greenland

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200727/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL
https://www.radarbox.com/data/flights/BA286/1439853660

On the live tracker it showed the flight going over greenland and on this website it shows the flight not going over Greenland. It's funny how the live tracker gets "deleted" and replaced with the new flight path.

Most flights on popular routes take place several times a week, under the same Flight Number.  So you need to specify which date you are talking about for a particular Flight Number.  If you think the "flight path changes after the plane lands", then you are looking at the same Flight Number on a different day.


I'm talking about the BAW6B which was in the air today referenced earlier in this thread which left SF 7/26/2020 and arrived in London 7/27/2020.


The route will be different each day.


Can you find me one nonstop flight from SF to London  which flies over Brasil?

According to https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history the flight from SF to London never passed over Greenland. Even though the live tracker shows the flight over Greenland. Can you send me one link to a completed nonstop flight between SF to London in which the flight tracker shows the flight passing over Greenland?


It might be worth it to add these inconsistencies to the wiki because something is clearly off.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 11:47:07 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2020, 05:06:49 AM »
The route will be different each day.


Can you find me one nonstop flight from SF to London  which flies over Brasil?

Why would it fly over Brazil? Why the route being different each day would imply it flew over Brazil even once? It doesn't mean it can be anything.


According to https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history the flight from SF to London never passed over Greenland. Even though the live tracker shows the flight over Greenland. Can you send me one link to a completed nonstop flight between SF to London in which the flight tracker shows the flight passing over Greenland?


Not just one but many:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200719/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200720/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200724/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL

and not exactly, over but close:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200718/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200717/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL

Next time, maybe try to actually click the links before claiming they "never" passed over Greenland? Because now, it looks like you checked two or maybe three that didn't and just assumed it was the same for the others.

Also:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ba281#250ca071
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ba281#250a7525
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ba281#25085dac
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ba281#2505ffb7

It might be worth it to add these inconsistencies to the wiki because something is clearly off.

What inconsistencies? The fact that flights don't always take the shortest route but might change because of weather conditions or other considerations?
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

Offline edby

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2020, 07:48:59 AM »
Why would it fly over Brazil? Why the route being different each day would imply it flew over Brazil even once? It doesn't mean it can be anything.
On that point, the 'measure distance' function on Google maps tells us the distance of different routes. Thus for the LA->London route

Over Greenland: 5,429km
Over Newfoundland: 5,568km
Over Florida: 6,547km

Over Brazil, probably much more. The difference between the Greenland and Newfoundland route is about 150km, which does not seem much. Between Greenland and Florida, more than a 1,000km.

 

Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2020, 08:12:37 AM »
You do understand that a Flight Number is not unique? 

How many flights from SF to london have flight number BAW6B which arrived today? Both of these show a flight path not over Greenland

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200727/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL
https://www.radarbox.com/data/flights/BA286/1439853660

On the live tracker it showed the flight going over greenland and on this website it shows the flight not going over Greenland. It's funny how the live tracker gets "deleted" and replaced with the new flight path.

Most flights on popular routes take place several times a week, under the same Flight Number.  So you need to specify which date you are talking about for a particular Flight Number.  If you think the "flight path changes after the plane lands", then you are looking at the same Flight Number on a different day.


I'm talking about the BAW6B which was in the air today referenced earlier in this thread which left SF 7/26/2020 and arrived in London 7/27/2020.


The route will be different each day.


Can you find me one nonstop flight from SF to London  which flies over Brasil?

According to https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history the flight from SF to London never passed over Greenland. Even though the live tracker shows the flight over Greenland. Can you send me one link to a completed nonstop flight between SF to London in which the flight tracker shows the flight passing over Greenland?


It might be worth it to add these inconsistencies to the wiki because something is clearly off.

Quite agree that BAW6B (aircraft reg G-ZBKI) did not fly over Greenland on 26/27 July.  I don't think anyone claimed it did. 

Nor on the day previous, 25/26 July (aircraft reg G-ZBKS). 

However, on 23/24 aircraft reg G-ZBKB did cross Greenland. 

At the moment (about 08.00 UTC on Tuesday 28 July), BAW6B is being flown by Dreamliner G-ZBKA.  It is over Baffin Island and looks to be headed for Greenland on its way to LHR, where it is estimated to land at around 12.30 UTC.  If you read this in time please follow the flight on a website of your choice. 

In any case, check the history for this aircraft and please come back and tell everyone that it crossed Greenland.  Or not.  And remember, we are talking here about G-ZBKA on 27/28 July. 

And as for Brasil .........


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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2020, 09:38:43 AM »
Screenprinted at 10.35am UK time, 28 July. Would have had to have executed some really sharp turns to take it around Greenland...



It looks as though it might approach LHR from the North. I'm in Scotland, and it's a clear day here. I will try to monitor it if and when it goes past my locale

EDIT UTC 12.44, it's going over the Eire/Northern Ireland border. Too far south west for me to see physically.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 11:43:31 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline edby

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2020, 12:37:33 PM »
It just passed over Fulham - I tracked it over Wales and southern England, then saw it with my own eyes it for nearly a minute using binoculars. Clearly a BA plane, and clearly a Dreamliner.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2020, 03:20:56 PM »
BA flight BAW6B which arrived at Heathrow today, 28 July, flew over Greenland, as per my screenshot from flightradar, and flightaware's track herein;

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B

Yesterday's flight BAW6B did not, according to flightaware.

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200727/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL

Neither did Sunday's

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200726/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL

Saturday's was cancelled, Friday's flew over Greenland

https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B/history/20200724/0245Z/KSFO/EGLL
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 03:22:52 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2020, 03:21:57 PM »
Quite agree that BAW6B (aircraft reg G-ZBKI) did not fly over Greenland on 26/27 July.  I don't think anyone claimed it did. 

Yes they did. They did it here:
[EDIT 2] And now, London time 12:28 (BST) BAW6B has neatly crossed the tip of Greenland and most of the North Atlantic, just approaching the coast of Ireland.  Scheduled to arrive at Heathrow 14:05. I live underneath the flight path so I will be able to see it come in.

In any case, check the history for this aircraft and please come back and tell everyone that it crossed Greenland.  Or not.  And remember, we are talking here about G-ZBKA on 27/28 July. 

The website indicated that it crossed Greenland. Unfortunately there have been instances, which I have already documented, in which the flight was shown as having crossed Greenland just to have been deleted and replaced with a flight which has not crossed Greenland.
Now that I have answered your question, Can you answer mine? What is a flight that we can take in which the path that we fly would support one of the two presented FE models?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 03:28:56 PM by iamcpc »

Offline edby

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2020, 04:06:37 PM »
Quite agree that BAW6B (aircraft reg G-ZBKI) did not fly over Greenland on 26/27 July.  I don't think anyone claimed it did. 

Yes they did. They did it here:
[EDIT 2] And now, London time 12:28 (BST) BAW6B has neatly crossed the tip of Greenland and most of the North Atlantic, just approaching the coast of Ireland.  Scheduled to arrive at Heathrow 14:05. I live underneath the flight path so I will be able to see it come in.
Note the date of my post (24 July).

Quote
Now that I have answered your question, Can you answer mine? What is a flight that we can take in which the path that we fly would support one of the two presented FE models?
Sorry what models are you talking about?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2020, 04:50:58 PM »
So, we seem to be in agreement that on some days, this flight passes over Greeenland, and others it does not. Agreed?

Where does that leave us?
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2020, 05:03:59 PM »
Sorry what models are you talking about?

The two different FE models shown on this thread:

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=16219.msg217167#msg217167


I'll link them again:

Here is a model of the earth in which the earth is represented as a flat plane:
https://www.bing.com/maps

I will call this FE model 1



Here is a model of the earth in which the earth is represented as a flat plane:
https://wiki.tfes.org/images/4/43/Map.png

I will call this FE model 2


Now what flight could we take in which the flight path evidence and observations could support one of those two models and weaken the other?






« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 05:10:11 PM by iamcpc »

Offline edby

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2020, 05:07:55 PM »
Sorry what models are you talking about?

The two different FE models shown on this thread.
Could you help us out and link to them please. I can't see anything immediately above.

So, we seem to be in agreement that on some days, this flight passes over Greeenland, and others it does not. Agreed?

Where does that leave us?
It leaves us that some days flights follow Great Circle routes, some days they do not.

Offline edby

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Re: Are flights from and to French Polynesia a hoax?
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2020, 05:18:45 PM »

Here is a model of the earth in which the earth is represented as a flat plane:
https://www.bing.com/maps

I will call this FE model 1


This model is the same as Google maps and does not represent the earth as a flat plane.

Rather, the model is a picture which is on a flat surface, but which represents something as not a plane.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 05:21:10 PM by edby »