GoldenEagle

With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« on: March 28, 2020, 11:14:49 PM »
Hi,

With the Zetetic method of observation and experimentation to get to truth, what is the critical thought process amongst the Flat Earth community to determine which pictures/ photos they believe are real vs. fake?

For example, in another post regarding ice wall discussion, a picture of a small section of an Antarctic ice wall was provided from a Flat Earther, that was taken from on-line content. The immediate assumption from FE'er is that it is real.

On the flip side, on-line content showing pictures of Earth from space or pictures on the moon are immediately deemed from FE'ers as fake with a conspiracy theory behind it, but no real proof.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 11:25:58 PM by GoldenEagle »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2020, 11:20:05 AM »
On the flip side, on-line content showing pictures of Earth from space or pictures on the moon are immediately deemed from FE'ers as fake with a conspiracy theory behind it, but no real proof.
This statement is false.

I would strongly recommend that you familiarise yourself with the movement before you choose to comment on it. Just airing your assumptions and imagination is unlikely to gather much attention.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2020, 11:25:01 AM »
Which part about the statement is false? FE'ers do claim photos from the moon and from space are false and thus a conspiracy is needed to explain the photos that the government claim are real. Is it the "no real proof" part that you claim false in the statement? I'm not trying to pick a fight with you on this one just understanding where you're coming from on the topic.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2020, 11:35:55 AM »
FE'ers do claim photos from the moon and from space are false
This part.

The argument is not that all claim images are false, but rather that they're not particularly trustworthy due to their unverifiable nature. Further to that, they are rarely conclusive either way even if we ignored their other problems.

The main problem with photographic evidence is not that it's some spooky conspiracy, but that it's simply a waste of everyone's time.

Our FAQ currently seems to be doing a poor job of explaining this (it over-focuses on how easy it would be to manipulate a photo, rather than how hard it would be to verify one), so I appreciate we may not have helped the confusion. I'll try to adjust the wording later today.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 11:38:47 AM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2020, 11:40:47 AM »
Our FAQ ... (it over-focuses on how easy it would be to manipulate a photo, rather than how hard it would be to verify one) ...

Please explain, either here or there, why you think it is "hard" to verify them...
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2020, 11:44:37 AM »
Please explain, either here or there, why you think it is "hard" to verify them...
Because going to space as a private citizen is hard.

Tumeni, you've been here a while. These entry-level questions are an obvious attempt at obstruction from you. Crawl back into your cave and let others have a discussion.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2020, 12:18:19 PM »
Because going to space as a private citizen is hard.

So are a number of other endeavours, none of which seem to find a lack of acceptance from the FE community.

Photos from space are disbelieved without personal "private-citizen" verification, but when it comes to (for instance), the setting of a land-speed record, water-speed record, or other such, this is seen from afar, and third-party accounts, photos, video, even the reporting by Guiness, are all accepted at face value. I could name a host of other scientific achievements, all outwith the scope of the private citizen, which are also taken at face value, without verification. 

Yet the "I need to verify it for myself" attitude persists amongst the FEers...  Why is it this topic in particular that brings out this attitude?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2020, 03:24:37 PM »
Hi,

With the Zetetic method of observation and experimentation to get to truth, what is the critical thought process amongst the Flat Earth community to determine which pictures/ photos they believe are real vs. fake?

For example, in another post regarding ice wall discussion, a picture of a small section of an Antarctic ice wall was provided from a Flat Earther, that was taken from on-line content. The immediate assumption from FE'er is that it is real.

On the flip side, on-line content showing pictures of Earth from space or pictures on the moon are immediately deemed from FE'ers as fake with a conspiracy theory behind it, but no real proof.

Thank you.
I would surmise the zetetic method as applied to pictures is to take note of the difference between the words, "picture," and "image."

NASA generally releases "images."
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2020, 04:33:23 PM »
I would surmise the zetetic method as applied to pictures is to take note of the difference between the words, "picture," and "image."

NASA generally releases "images."
I'm interested to know what you see as the distinction between those things, do you regard one as more valid than the other and if so, why?

FE people often jump excitedly on NASA admitting they often make composite images which always seems strange to me. Every time you use the panorama function on your phone you are creating a composite image. That doesn't mean the image is fake.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2020, 04:53:22 PM »
If we are going to update the FAQ I always thought that it should clarify that we believe that government space claims are, indeed, evidence for a round world. But we also believe that the various things suggesting chicanery is also evidence.

That answers the first frequently asked question of "how is this not evidence???". Perhaps the answer can be expanded on as well.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 04:57:06 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2020, 04:54:34 PM »
I would surmise the zetetic method as applied to pictures is to take note of the difference between the words, "picture," and "image."   NASA generally releases "images."

Generally? So not always, then?


Seriously, what do you define as the difference between the two?

Are you expecting all pictures from space to be taken on roll film, sheet film, or glass plates?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

GoldenEagle

Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2020, 10:04:26 PM »
On the flip side, on-line content showing pictures of Earth from space or pictures on the moon are immediately deemed from FE'ers as fake with a conspiracy theory behind it, but no real proof.
This statement is false.

I would strongly recommend that you familiarise yourself with the movement before you choose to comment on it. Just airing your assumptions and imagination is unlikely to gather much attention.


Pete,

I think you're slicing and dicing my words and so l'll try to be more exacting in my question.

I know you know what I am trying ask and so hopefully this works better:

Within this site, numerous times mentioned that you can't always trust what you see on the internet.

The Zetetic method is about observing with the senses and experimentation to test theories and get to facts.

So far, so good.

What I see is Zetetic Council members / Flat Earth believers (like Tom) / and or the Wiki  that proport to extol the virtues of observing with the senses and experimentation. But, at the same time, guilty of posting or leveraging photos / images / etc.. from the internet to support and help back the Flat Earth theory.

Both of these things are a direct contradiction to each other.

GoldenEagle

Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2020, 10:11:25 PM »
Hi,

With the Zetetic method of observation and experimentation to get to truth, what is the critical thought process amongst the Flat Earth community to determine which pictures/ photos they believe are real vs. fake?

For example, in another post regarding ice wall discussion, a picture of a small section of an Antarctic ice wall was provided from a Flat Earther, that was taken from on-line content. The immediate assumption from FE'er is that it is real.

On the flip side, on-line content showing pictures of Earth from space or pictures on the moon are immediately deemed from FE'ers as fake with a conspiracy theory behind it, but no real proof.

Thank you.
I would surmise the zetetic method as applied to pictures is to take note of the difference between the words, "picture," and "image."

NASA generally releases "images."


How do you know which are pictures and which are images?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 10:18:03 PM by GoldenEagle »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2020, 03:21:49 AM »
So are a number of other endeavours, none of which seem to find a lack of acceptance from the FE community.
That's a nice unqualified assertion you've made there. It happens to be completely false.

I trust your question of "why are space photos hard to verify?" has been answered to your satisfaction, given you had no objections that actually pertained to my point. I will ask once more, politely for now, that you stop wasting everyone's time.

Zetetic Council members
Don't use terms you don't understand. It's a bad look for you. If you want to say Tom, just say Tom. And probably direct your question to him instead of being vague.

But, at the same time, guilty of posting or leveraging photos / images / etc.. from the internet to support and help back the Flat Earth theory.
Anyone who does that is being silly, regardless of which tribe they happen to support. I'm not sure what else I could do to help you on that front.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 03:36:45 AM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

GoldenEagle

Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2020, 09:08:34 AM »
So are a number of other endeavours, none of which seem to find a lack of acceptance from the FE community.
That's a nice unqualified assertion you've made there. It happens to be completely false.

I trust your question of "why are space photos hard to verify?" has been answered to your satisfaction, given you had no objections that actually pertained to my point. I will ask once more, politely for now, that you stop wasting everyone's time.

Zetetic Council members
Don't use terms you don't understand. It's a bad look for you. If you want to say Tom, just say Tom. And probably direct your question to him instead of being vague.

But, at the same time, guilty of posting or leveraging photos / images / etc.. from the internet to support and help back the Flat Earth theory.
Anyone who does that is being silly, regardless of which tribe they happen to support. I'm not sure what else I could do to help you on that front.


What direct knowledge or fact-based evidence do flat Earthers have that pictures from space showing a round earth are fake?

Also, what direct knowledge or fact-based evidence do Flat Eathers have that space travel by man never happened / that space travel, the moon landing, etc.. was an elaborate hoax?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 09:10:36 AM by GoldenEagle »

Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2020, 10:23:08 AM »
I would surmise the zetetic method as applied to pictures is to take note of the difference between the words, "picture," and "image."

NASA generally releases "images."
I'm interested to know what you see as the distinction between those things, do you regard one as more valid than the other and if so, why?
The distinction is one is real and the other is not.
FE people often jump excitedly on NASA admitting they often make composite images which always seems strange to me. Every time you use the panorama function on your phone you are creating a composite image. That doesn't mean the image is fake.
Anything that does not depict reality is fake.
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2020, 10:25:22 AM »
Hi,

With the Zetetic method of observation and experimentation to get to truth, what is the critical thought process amongst the Flat Earth community to determine which pictures/ photos they believe are real vs. fake?

For example, in another post regarding ice wall discussion, a picture of a small section of an Antarctic ice wall was provided from a Flat Earther, that was taken from on-line content. The immediate assumption from FE'er is that it is real.

On the flip side, on-line content showing pictures of Earth from space or pictures on the moon are immediately deemed from FE'ers as fake with a conspiracy theory behind it, but no real proof.

Thank you.
I would surmise the zetetic method as applied to pictures is to take note of the difference between the words, "picture," and "image."

NASA generally releases "images."


How do you know which are pictures and which are images?
NASA generally informs you which are images.

Most of NASA's stuff are images created by things such as scanners, not point and shoot cameras.
Generally? So not always, then?
Correct.
Seriously, what do you define as the difference between the two?
One is a picture taken by a camera, the other is an image not taken by a camera.
Are you expecting all pictures from space to be taken on roll film, sheet film, or glass plates?
Nope. I have no expectations.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 10:29:18 AM by totallackey »
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2020, 10:40:28 AM »
Most of NASA's stuff are images created by things such as scanners, not point and shoot cameras.

Most? So you accept that some of their output is from "point and shoot cameras"?

However ... I have a scanner next to my desk. If I place my hand on the scanner glass, and start the scanner, I end up with a scan of my hand. If I pick up my phone or camera, and press the shutter to take a photo of my hand, I still end up with a scan of it. One focuses an optical device on segments of a full-size scanner glass, the other focuses the scene through a lens onto an optical device with a matrix of optical receptors.

Both results are taken from a real hand. So I don't see how you justify the rejection of the scanned one, simply because a scanner has been used.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2020, 10:50:14 AM »
Most of NASA's stuff are images created by things such as scanners, not point and shoot cameras.
Most? So you accept that some of their output is from "point and shoot cameras"?
It could be, but even that is altered, as is obvious to the objective viewer.
However ... I have a scanner next to my desk. If I place my hand on the scanner glass, and start the scanner, I end up with a scan of my hand. If I pick up my phone or camera, and press the shutter to take a photo of my hand, I still end up with a scan of it. One focuses an optical device on segments of a full-size scanner glass, the other focuses the scene through a lens onto an optical device with a matrix of optical receptors.

Both results are taken from a real hand. So I don't see how you justify the rejection of the scanned one, simply because a scanner has been used.
Well, a scanner on a satellite doesn't take a single image of a hand.

It runs over select areas and then turns out a stitched image.
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: With Zetetic method, what pictures are Real vs. Fake
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2020, 10:53:05 AM »
It could be, but even that is altered, as is obvious to the objective viewer.

Is there any qualification to this, other than you say so?

Well, a scanner on a satellite doesn't take a single image of a hand.

It runs over select areas and then turns out a stitched image.

I can select the areas of my hand that I want to scan, could scan all fingers and thumb separately from the palm, and stitch them together later to make a stitched image.

If I did this, would you assert that I had not actually scanned it?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 10:55:20 AM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?