Offline leo

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why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« on: February 14, 2020, 06:59:25 AM »
if the earth is flat, people in south(people over the equator) should see the Polaris like the people in the north do. But they actually don’t. Can someone please explain this?

Or is it that the flat earth has an oval surface, so the people in south have their vision blocked by the curve? but is it curved that much?

thanks a lot.

totallackey

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2020, 11:36:49 AM »
if the earth is flat, people in south(people over the equator) should see the Polaris like the people in the north do. But they actually don’t. Can someone please explain this?

Or is it that the flat earth has an oval surface, so the people in south have their vision blocked by the curve? but is it curved that much?

thanks a lot.
This is simply not true.

Once you are far enough away from an object, you can no longer see that object.

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Offline RoundLurker

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2020, 12:05:51 PM »

This is simply not true.


- Do you know the distance required for Polaris (apparent magnitude of 1.97v) to stop being visible to the naked eye?
- What % of that distance passes through our atmosphere versus no atmosphere? (or atmo*whatever)
- How far away is Polaris under FET?
- Have you travelled "away" from Polaris to measure the point at which is stops being visible / has anyone?
- Did it fade from view gradually as you moved away?

If you can't answer these, you can't categorically call a statement untrue.  Everybody has a theory and that's what this place is for, but TL consistently makes dismissive statements like this without any supporting commentary. Tedious.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 12:35:52 PM by RoundLurker »
The person in my avatar does not exist, and that's unsettling.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2020, 12:18:53 PM »
Once you are far enough away from an object, you can no longer see that object.

How far away do you reckon Polaris is, and by how much does that distance vary by people moving upon what you regard as the Flat Earth?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

totallackey

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2020, 12:30:38 PM »
Once you are far enough away from an object, you can no longer see that object.

How far away do you reckon Polaris is, and by how much does that distance vary by people moving upon what you regard as the Flat Earth?
I have not measured it using the similar triangles method.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2020, 12:32:29 PM »
I have not measured it using the similar triangles method.

Have you measured it with any other method?

If not, how can you cite "Once you are far enough away from an object, you can no longer see that object." as a reason for not seeing Polaris? 
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

totallackey

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2020, 12:36:23 PM »
I have not measured it using the similar triangles method.

Have you measured it with any other method?

If not, how can you cite "Once you are far enough away from an object, you can no longer see that object." as a reason for not seeing Polaris?
No.

I have not measured it by any other method.

I can state that you cannot see an object once you are far enough away from that object to see it because it is a verifiable fact that once you are far enough away from an object to see it, you can no longer see it.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2020, 12:43:00 PM »
I have not measured it by any other method.

I can state that you cannot see an object once you are far enough away from that object to see it because it is a verifiable fact that once you are far enough away from an object to see it, you can no longer see it.

Can you state the latter as a reason for not seeing Polaris, when you have no information for the former to confirm that the actual distances make a material difference?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

totallackey

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2020, 12:50:02 PM »
I have not measured it by any other method.

I can state that you cannot see an object once you are far enough away from that object to see it because it is a verifiable fact that once you are far enough away from an object to see it, you can no longer see it.

Can you state the latter as a reason for not seeing Polaris, when you have no information for the former to confirm that the actual distances make a material difference?
I need to clarify something here.

I often see RE bring up the issue of kangaroos and knowing they are real and indigenous to Australia, despite the fact being one has never actually seen one alive and hopping in Australia.

Allow me to use the same method of argumentation here.

I have traveled far enough away from certain objects, and certain objects, especially in the sky, have traveled far enough away from me, to achieve a loss of personal visual contact.

So, yeah, utilizing the kangaroo method, I can state the latter (you are standing too far away to see Polaris) as a reason.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 01:19:23 PM by totallackey »

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2020, 12:56:04 PM »
I can state that you cannot see an object once you are far enough away from that object to see it because it is a verifiable fact that once you are far enough away from an object to see it, you can no longer see it.

Correct, but objects don't just go from "you can see it" to "you can't see it".
A bright object will appear dimmer and smaller until you can't see it.
Does his happen with Polaris? No. The elevation of it gets lower by 1 degree for every degree of latitude until you can't see it because it's under the horizon.
Perfectly consistent with the observations you'd expect on a globe. On a FE then if it's just distance then why does the magnitude remain constant?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

totallackey

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2020, 01:14:05 PM »
I can state that you cannot see an object once you are far enough away from that object to see it because it is a verifiable fact that once you are far enough away from an object to see it, you can no longer see it.

Correct, but objects don't just go from "you can see it" to "you can't see it".
Most objects actually do.
A bright object will appear dimmer and smaller until you can't see it.
Polaris is typically hard to make out, especially for older people, even in the Northern regions of the earth because it simply isn't that bright of a star and because of "light pollution."
Does his happen with Polaris? No.
Yes it does.
The elevation of it gets lower by 1 degree for every degree of latitude until you can't see it because it's under the horizon.
Actually, objects that rise above the flat earth plane and those occupying the atmolayer above the earth eventually obscure it.
Perfectly consistent with the observations you'd expect on a globe. On a FE then if it's just distance then why does the magnitude remain constant?
Absolute magnitude is a characteristic of self luminescent objects and not the observer.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 06:53:26 PM by totallackey »

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2020, 01:28:39 PM »
Does his happen with Polaris? No.
Yes it does.

Can you provide some evidence for this. Thanks.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

totallackey

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2020, 01:46:24 PM »
Does his happen with Polaris? No.
Yes it does.

Can you provide some evidence for this. Thanks.
Yes.

Polaris is a star of variable magnitude.

You are welcome.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 01:48:16 PM by totallackey »

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2020, 01:57:05 PM »
Does his happen with Polaris? No.
Yes it does.

Can you provide some evidence for this. Thanks.
Yes.

Polaris is a star of variable magnitude.

You are welcome.
That isn't evidence, that's just you stating something :)
Can you provide evidence that the magnitude of Polaris varies by latitude and, more specifically, that it gets dimmer the further south you go and thus the further away you are from it in your model?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

totallackey

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2020, 03:26:20 PM »
Does his happen with Polaris? No.
Yes it does.

Can you provide some evidence for this. Thanks.
Yes.

Polaris is a star of variable magnitude.

You are welcome.
That isn't evidence, that's just you stating something :)
Can you provide evidence that the magnitude of Polaris varies by latitude and, more specifically, that it gets dimmer the further south you go and thus the further away you are from it in your model?
I am stating a scientific fact.

You know that magnitude is strictly a characteristic of the light source.

The magnitude of the light source is not dependent on distance and I never wrote it was.

Stop strawmanning.

Now, issues of light pollution and other terrestrial and atmoplanar effects will affect the ability of any star's ability to be to be perceived by an observer.

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Offline RoundLurker

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2020, 03:36:01 PM »
if the earth is flat, people in south(people over the equator) should see the Polaris like the people in the north do. But they actually don’t. Can someone please explain this?

Or is it that the flat earth has an oval surface, so the people in south have their vision blocked by the curve? but is it curved that much?

thanks a lot.
This is simply not true.

Some evidence to support this point would be lovely, alternatively just concede that you can't possibly make such a definitive statement ?

Kangaroo logic might be sufficient to make some sort of claim, but certainly not to disprove the OP.
The person in my avatar does not exist, and that's unsettling.

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2020, 03:45:30 PM »
The magnitude of the light source is not dependent on distance and I never wrote it was.
Of course it is - the observed magnitude is. The further you are from a light source, the dimmer it appears.
Shine a torch right in your eyes and it's uncomfortably bright. Observer it from 50 yards and it's much dimmer and smaller.
So if we can't see Polaris from the southern "hemisphere" because it's too far away then we should observe a gradual dimming of it as you get further away to the point where it can't be seen any more. That isn't what is observed at all. It just gets lower in the sky - again, a degree lower for each degree of latitude - until we can't see it any more because it is "under" the horizon.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

totallackey

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2020, 03:50:39 PM »
if the earth is flat, people in south(people over the equator) should see the Polaris like the people in the north do. But they actually don’t. Can someone please explain this?

Or is it that the flat earth has an oval surface, so the people in south have their vision blocked by the curve? but is it curved that much?

thanks a lot.
This is simply not true.

Some evidence to support this point would be lovely, alternatively just concede that you can't possibly make such a definitive statement ?
What evidence would you like?

Can you see your neighbor's back door?

Why not?

Something in the way?

No...my written statement stands.
Kangaroo logic might be sufficient to make some sort of claim, but certainly not to disprove the OP.
I'm not trying to disprove the OP as he never wrote a truthful statement to begin with.

The ability of humans to perceive objects is roughly limited to 350 km, regardless of the shape of the earth.

The OP wrote that people should be able to see Polaris from wherever they are standing on the earth if the earth was flat.

That statement is just flat out false.

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Offline RoundLurker

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2020, 03:59:09 PM »
if the earth is flat, people in south(people over the equator) should see the Polaris like the people in the north do. But they actually don’t. Can someone please explain this?

Or is it that the flat earth has an oval surface, so the people in south have their vision blocked by the curve? but is it curved that much?

thanks a lot.
This is simply not true.

Some evidence to support this point would be lovely, alternatively just concede that you can't possibly make such a definitive statement ?
What evidence would you like?

Can you see your neighbor's back door?

Why not?

Something in the way?

No...my written statement stands.
Kangaroo logic might be sufficient to make some sort of claim, but certainly not to disprove the OP.
I'm not trying to disprove the OP as he never wrote a truthful statement to begin with.

The ability of humans to perceive objects is roughly limited to 350 km, regardless of the shape of the earth.

The OP wrote that people should be able to see Polaris from wherever they are standing on the earth if the earth was flat.

That statement is just flat out false.

The sun is 150 million km away and I can see that.  Your statement is just flat out false.  This is a fun game isn't it?
The person in my avatar does not exist, and that's unsettling.

totallackey

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2020, 04:02:06 PM »
The magnitude of the light source is not dependent on distance and I never wrote it was.
Of course it is - the observed magnitude is. The further you are from a light source, the dimmer it appears.
Shine a torch right in your eyes and it's uncomfortably bright. Observer it from 50 yards and it's much dimmer and smaller.
So if we can't see Polaris from the southern "hemisphere" because it's too far away then we should observe a gradual dimming of it as you get further away to the point where it can't be seen any more. That isn't what is observed at all. It just gets lower in the sky - again, a degree lower for each degree of latitude - until we can't see it any more because it is "under" the horizon.
The absolute magnitude of Polaris varies and is not dependent on the observer.

Apparent magnitude, of which you write, is a different measure altogether.

And your claim that Polaris simply becomes lower and lower for each degree of latitude is true, but there is more.

There is always the issue of atmoplanar effects and terrestrial objects that will eventually interfere with the ability to see any object.

But, really I find all of  this quite rich!

Here, AATW writes:
A bright object will appear dimmer and smaller until you can't see it.
Does his happen with Polaris? No.
But here, he flips the script and starts arguing with...himself:
Of course it is - the observed magnitude is. The further you are from a light source, the dimmer it appears.
Shine a torch right in your eyes and it's uncomfortably bright. Observer it from 50 yards and it's much dimmer and smaller.
So, which position are you arguing again?