Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2020, 04:04:32 PM »
if the earth is flat, people in south(people over the equator) should see the Polaris like the people in the north do. But they actually don’t. Can someone please explain this?

Or is it that the flat earth has an oval surface, so the people in south have their vision blocked by the curve? but is it curved that much?

thanks a lot.
This is simply not true.

Some evidence to support this point would be lovely, alternatively just concede that you can't possibly make such a definitive statement ?
What evidence would you like?

Can you see your neighbor's back door?

Why not?

Something in the way?

No...my written statement stands.
Kangaroo logic might be sufficient to make some sort of claim, but certainly not to disprove the OP.
I'm not trying to disprove the OP as he never wrote a truthful statement to begin with.

The ability of humans to perceive objects is roughly limited to 350 km, regardless of the shape of the earth.

The OP wrote that people should be able to see Polaris from wherever they are standing on the earth if the earth was flat.

That statement is just flat out false.

The sun is 150 million km away and I can see that.  Your statement is just flat out false.  This is a fun game isn't it?
The Sun is a lot closer than that, according to many sources.

I have performed a similar triangles measure of the sun.

I believe it is approximately 5,000 miles away from my location during the summer months, at around 10:00 am.

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2020, 04:22:41 PM »
But, really I find all of  this quite rich!

Here, AATW writes:
A bright object will appear dimmer and smaller until you can't see it.
Does his happen with Polaris? No.
But here, he flips the script and starts arguing with...himself:
Of course it is - the observed magnitude is. The further you are from a light source, the dimmer it appears.
Shine a torch right in your eyes and it's uncomfortably bright. Observer it from 50 yards and it's much dimmer and smaller.
So, which position are you arguing again?

It's quite simple. In RET you are no further from Polaris at the North Pole than you are at the equator.
Because in RET Polaris is over 300 LIGHT YEARS away from earth. So a few thousand extra kilometers here and there on that scale makes no difference, you would not expect to see any difference in apparent magnitude.

If FET claims that the stars are much closer though then you would expect the magnitude to dim the further south you go as the difference in distance would be significant. That isn't what is observed.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2020, 04:24:38 PM »
But, really I find all of  this quite rich!

Here, AATW writes:
A bright object will appear dimmer and smaller until you can't see it.
Does his happen with Polaris? No.
But here, he flips the script and starts arguing with...himself:
Of course it is - the observed magnitude is. The further you are from a light source, the dimmer it appears.
Shine a torch right in your eyes and it's uncomfortably bright. Observer it from 50 yards and it's much dimmer and smaller.
So, which position are you arguing again?

It's quite simple. In RET you are no further from Polaris at the North Pole than you are at the equator.
Because in RET Polaris is over 300 LIGHT YEARS away from earth. So a few thousand extra kilometers here and there on that scale makes no difference, you would not expect to see any difference in apparent magnitude.

If FET claims that the stars are much closer though then you would expect the magnitude to dim the further south you go as the difference in distance would be significant. That isn't what is observed.
Oh, you are now claiming the ability to determine the simultaneous apparent magnitude of a star for all observers?

Please, let us know more...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 04:26:17 PM by totallackey »

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2020, 04:34:40 PM »
I'm not claiming anything. You said

Once you are far enough away from an object, you can no longer see that object.

So if your claim is that we can't see Polaris from the southern "hemisphere" because you're too far away then you should surely be able to provide some data which indicates that the further south you go the dimmer Polaris gets until it can no longer be seen.
In fact what we observer is that the further south you go the closer to the horizon Polaris gets until it can't be seen because it is "under" the horizon.
RET has an explanation for that observation. Does FET?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2020, 04:44:22 PM »
I'm not claiming anything. You said

Once you are far enough away from an object, you can no longer see that object.

So if your claim is that we can't see Polaris from the southern "hemisphere" because you're too far away then you should surely be able to provide some data which indicates that the further south you go the dimmer Polaris gets until it can no longer be seen.
Yeah I wrote that.

That statement is undeniable fact.

What data do I need to provide that Polaris would get dimmer?

Even the Sun gets dimmer as it moves farther away...
In fact what we observer is that the further south you go the closer to the horizon Polaris gets until it can't be seen because it is "under" the horizon.
RET has an explanation for that observation. Does FET?
Yeah, and I have provided it here.

I don't see the need to repeat myself.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 04:47:21 PM by totallackey »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2020, 05:58:18 PM »
The ability of humans to perceive objects is roughly limited to 350 km, regardless of the shape of the earth.

I have performed a similar triangles measure of the sun.
I believe it is approximately 5,000 miles away from my location during the summer months, at around 10:00 am.

Do you consider the Moon to be closer than the Sun?
Do you agree that Venus and Mercury have been observed to transit between Earth and Sun?
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2020, 06:10:39 PM »
The ability of humans to perceive objects is roughly limited to 350 km, regardless of the shape of the earth.

I have performed a similar triangles measure of the sun.
I believe it is approximately 5,000 miles away from my location during the summer months, at around 10:00 am.

Do you consider the Moon to be closer than the Sun?
I don't know as I have yet to do a similar triangle measurement for the moon.
Do you agree that Venus and Mercury have been observed to transit between Earth and Sun?
I have not seen it, but that doesn't mean that hasn't happened.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2020, 07:23:59 PM »

I believe it is approximately 5,000 miles away from my location during the summer months, at around 10:00 am.


If that is true how can you see it?  if this is true?

The ability of humans to perceive objects is roughly limited to 350 km, regardless of the shape of the earth.

Are you arguing with yourself?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2020, 08:55:50 PM »
if the earth is flat, people in south(people over the equator) should see the Polaris like the people in the north do. But they actually don’t. Can someone please explain this?

Or is it that the flat earth has an oval surface, so the people in south have their vision blocked by the curve? but is it curved that much?

thanks a lot.


Well it would help if I knew what FE model you were talking about


I'm going to respond as if you are talking about this model or some model which is relatively similar to this.





1. The place you are calling south pole does not exist in this model. Can you please mark on this map what point you would like to consider the south pole. This is the biggest problem with answering a question in these types of models because you are trying to compare a single square miles to a circle composed of thousands of square miles which are thousands and thousands of miles apart.

For the sake of trying to give you a few possible responses i'll just say that the south pole can be any random point on or around the outer perimeter.

2. You can't see the star from the outer perimeter because of the way the light refracts through the vacuum then dome and atmosphere (for models that have a dome)
3. You can't see the star from the outer perimeter because of the way the light refracts through the vacuum of space then the atmosphere (for models that don't have a dome)
4. You can see the star from the outer perimeter
5. No one has been to the outer perimeter (for a large numbers of different reasons depends on the subset of this model) so no one knows if you can see the star from the outer perimeter or not.
6. You can't see the star from the square mile randomly picked as the south pole because the RE south pole is on the opposite side of the circle.
7. You can't see the star from the outer perimeter because it's too far away.
8. You can't see the star because of limitations to the human visual system.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 09:07:43 PM by iamcpc »

Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2020, 09:12:21 PM »

I believe it is approximately 5,000 miles away from my location during the summer months, at around 10:00 am.


If that is true how can you see it?  if this is true?

The ability of humans to perceive objects is roughly limited to 350 km, regardless of the shape of the earth.

Are you arguing with yourself?
Actually no.

The visual acuity figure I presented is relative to objects not emitting their own light. I should have clarified that statement when I wrote it, so thanks for bringing it up.

Offline leo

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Re: why can’t the people in south see Polaris
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2020, 03:24:10 PM »


Well it would help if I knew what FE model you were talking about


I'm going to respond as if you are talking about this model or some model which is relatively similar to this.





1. The place you are calling south pole does not exist in this model. Can you please mark on this map what point you would like to consider the south pole. This is the biggest problem with answering a question in these types of models because you are trying to compare a single square miles to a circle composed of thousands of square miles which are thousands and thousands of miles apart.

For the sake of trying to give you a few possible responses i'll just say that the south pole can be any random point on or around the outer perimeter.

2. You can't see the star from the outer perimeter because of the way the light refracts through the vacuum then dome and atmosphere (for models that have a dome)
3. You can't see the star from the outer perimeter because of the way the light refracts through the vacuum of space then the atmosphere (for models that don't have a dome)

i did not say south pole, i said people in the south, and that “in the south” means “over the equator”. but that’s alright, i guess in that map, the south pole would be the circle line.

so if you can’t see the Polaris in the south in FET, it may be because of refraction?
i would like to know how it refracts, the way it goes. i’m not able to simulate it by myself because i don’t know what a dome is. is it the curve? or something else. i really like to know about the FET model, even if (maybe you)and i don’t agree with it.

thank you