Flat Earth Satellites
« on: January 08, 2020, 05:23:50 PM »
If the Earth is flat, how can a G.P.S. satellite stay afloat?  Or the I.S.S., for that matter?

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 819
    • View Profile
Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2020, 06:32:08 PM »
If the Earth is flat, how can a G.P.S. satellite stay afloat?  Or the I.S.S., for that matter?

There are several different FE models so there are many ways to answer this question so i'll just give a few

-there is no such thing as a satellite
-They are attached to the dome
-they are high altitude balloons
-they are orbiting earth in outer space because of gravity
-they are just planes or other high altitude mechanical devices sending out their signals

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2020, 03:42:44 PM »
If the Earth is flat, how can a G.P.S. satellite stay afloat?  Or the I.S.S., for that matter?

There are several different FE models so there are many ways to answer this question so i'll just give a few

-there is no such thing as a satellite
-They are attached to the dome
-they are high altitude balloons
-they are orbiting earth in outer space because of gravity
-they are just planes or other high altitude mechanical devices sending out their signals
Asking the people that build and operate GPS would be a good start.

*

Offline BillO

  • *
  • Posts: 583
  • Huh?
    • View Profile
Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2020, 01:48:48 AM »
Asking the people that build and operate GPS would be a good start.
What if the conspiracy that regards the entire space community being NASA shills is true, or that you truly believe it is true.  What then would be the point of asking the conspirators?
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2020, 07:44:45 PM »
Asking the people that build and operate GPS would be a good start.
What if the conspiracy that regards the entire space community being NASA shills is true, or that you truly believe it is true.  What then would be the point of asking the conspirators?
Bit surprising that GPS works exactly as documented.

*

Offline BillO

  • *
  • Posts: 583
  • Huh?
    • View Profile
Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 11:48:50 PM »
Bit surprising that GPS works exactly as documented.
No, not really ... perhaps you missed my point.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

Groit

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2020, 06:46:37 PM »
All satellites are put into orbit using Newton's laws of motion, which only works with a spherical Earth. The orbital period is proportional to radius from the centre of the Earth, and knowing that the Earth's radius is 6,370 km we can determine the altitude of the satellite. GPS satellites orbit the Earth twice a day and are at an altitude of about 20,000 km, geostationary satellites which orbit the Earth every 24 hours and so appear to be stationary, are at an altitude of about 36,000 km.
 
Without Newton's laws of motion/gravity there would be no GPS systems, no Hubble space telescope, no weather satellites, no sky/satellite tv and no internet, therefore this chat forum wouldn't even exist.  ;) 

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2020, 11:32:20 PM »
I'd honestly be interested in seeing/reading explanations how a satellite could work in a flat-earth scenario. Hopefully a scenario with no continuity errors.

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 07:26:03 AM »
I’d be curious too. Since there’s no centripetal force to keep them circling...

Curious side note about satellites: I did a project on how they adjust the gps clocks based on the atomic clocks in Colorado taking into account equations for distance from earth and tangential velocity. Apparently they travel so fast, time dilation makes a meaningful difference.

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2020, 01:27:29 PM »
Apparently they travel so fast, time dilation makes a meaningful difference.

Which is not something that would be an issue if we were already traveling at close to the speed of light.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11962
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2020, 02:59:42 PM »
Which is not something that would be an issue if we were already traveling at close to the speed of light.
Relative to what?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2020, 09:49:13 PM »
Quote
Relative to what?

That's a really good question. And I really can't answer it because since I don't believe the earth is accelerating at close to light speed. Perhaps you or someone else who does believe that can answer the question...relative to what is the earth accelerating?

My point is that if the earth is accelerating at c (or really at any rate at all), any satellites would have to be accelerating at the same rate to keep pace.  Any faster or slower, eventually it would be out of functional range.  If the earth and GPS satellites are accelerating at the same rate, there wouldn't be any time dilation.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11962
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2020, 08:32:41 AM »
That's a really good question. And I really can't answer it because since I don't believe the earth is accelerating at close to light speed.
You're the one who made the assertion. It certainly should be your job to make it complete, or to rescind it.

I would suggest that the frame of reference you've implied (yet can't identify) does not exist outside of a hypothetical thought experiment. I'd be curious to see if you, the claimant, actually put any thought into your claim, or if you just rapid-fired it with its glaring holes.

Perhaps you or someone else who does believe that can answer the question...relative to what is the earth accelerating?
An observer immediately above the Earth, at rest relative to the Earth.

My point is that if the earth is accelerating at c (or really at any rate at all), any satellites would have to be accelerating at the same rate to keep pace.  Any faster or slower, eventually it would be out of functional range.
This, too, is incomplete. In order to fulfil your requirement of the satellite not escaping or crashing into the Earth, it has to be accelerating upward together with UA. However, this does not mean that it can't be moving (or accelerating) perpendicular to UA for periods of time, or even oscillating up and down irrespective of UA. As long as this motion remains cyclical, your conditions can easily be met.

If the earth and GPS satellites are accelerating at the same rate, there wouldn't be any time dilation.
And this, too, is incomplete. The multiple relativistic effects experienced by GPS are (primarily) due to relative velocity and a difference in gravitational potential. Your argument might hold some water if the satellites were geostationary, but they're not.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 08:37:31 AM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2020, 11:40:46 AM »
The multiple relativistic effects experienced by GPS are (primarily) due to relative velocity and a difference in gravitational potential. Your argument might hold some water if the satellites were geostationary, but they're not.
I'm genuinely fascinated by what you think GPS satellites are and how they work. As you say, they're not geostationary, they are said to be satellites orbiting the globe earth. Obviously you can't believe that, so what do you think they are and how do they work?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2020, 02:57:21 PM »
The multiple relativistic effects experienced by GPS are (primarily) due to relative velocity and a difference in gravitational potential. Your argument might hold some water if the satellites were geostationary, but they're not.
I'm genuinely fascinated by what you think GPS satellites are and how they work. As you say, they're not geostationary, they are said to be satellites orbiting the globe earth. Obviously you can't believe that, so what do you think they are and how do they work?
Worth adding that GPNSS receivers give details of each satellites location and there are 4 separate systems in use.

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2020, 05:53:09 PM »
Quote
You're the one who made the assertion. It certainly should be your job to make it complete, or to rescind it.

I would suggest that the frame of reference you've implied (yet can't identify) does not exist outside of a hypothetical thought experiment. I'd be curious to see if you, the claimant, actually put any thought into your claim, or if you just rapid-fired it with its glaring holes

I haven't suggested a frame of reference. The concept of an accelerating earth is an FET one, so it is up to FET to define the frame of reference. I said time dilation wouldn't be an issue if the earth were accelerating.  I don't accept that it is, so there is no reason for me to have to define a frame of reference.  FET believes the earth is accelerating...so I can go whatever frame of reference FET proposes. It's your theory, not mine.

Time dilation wouldn't be an issue if the earth were accelerating relative to whatever reference frame is consistent with FET.  Is that defined enough for you?

Quote
My point is that if the earth is accelerating at c (or really at any rate at all), any satellites would have to be accelerating at the same rate to keep pace.  Any faster or slower, eventually it would be out of functional range.


This, too, is incomplete. In order to fulfil your requirement of the satellite not escaping or crashing into the Earth, it has to be accelerating upward together with UA. However, this does not mean that it can't be moving (or accelerating) perpendicular to UA for periods of time, or even oscillating up and down irrespective of UA. As long as this motion remains cyclical, your conditions can easily be met.



Quote from: pricelesspearl on January 23, 2020, 09:49:13 PM

If the earth and GPS satellites are accelerating at the same rate, there wouldn't be any time dilation.


And this, too, is incomplete. The multiple relativistic effects experienced by GPS are (primarily) due to relative velocity and a difference in gravitational potential. Your argument might hold some water if the satellites were geostationary, but they're not.


Special relativity only applies to inertial frames of reference…at rest or moving at constant velocity.  If the satellites are accelerating or changing velocity, SR doesn’t even apply, and time dilation wouldn’t be an issue.  GR wouldn’t apply either. There wouldn’t be any time dilation due to gravitational effects, because there is no gravity on FE.

That raises an interesting observation, though.  Currently, effects from both gravity and speed are taken into account to determine the amount of time dilation.  Without taking gravity into account, the FE calculations would be entirely different.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 05:57:44 PM by pricelesspearl »

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11962
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2020, 05:59:38 PM »
I said time dilation wouldn't be an issue if the earth were accelerating.
Accelerating relative to what and for how long? You can't make this claim without clarifying. It is meaningless.

I already provided you with the FET frame. Your scenario does not apply to it in any meaningful way. Therefore, you clearly must have a different FoR in mind, or you simply presented an argument so incomplete that it does not have a defined meaning (let alone a truth value).

Special relativity only applies to inertial frames of reference…at rest or moving at constant velocity.  If the satellites are accelerating or changing velocity, SR doesn’t even apply, and time dilation wouldn’t be an issue.
In RET, GPS satellites are accelerating or changing velocity (why did you feel the need to say the same thing twice?) relative to the Earth. And yet, according to RE'ers, the effects of time dilation are clearly observable. I dare suggest that your statement is therefore nonsense.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 06:02:08 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

*

Offline BillO

  • *
  • Posts: 583
  • Huh?
    • View Profile
Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2020, 07:32:45 PM »
Accelerating relative to what and for how long?
Acceleration does not have to be relative to anything.  I thought you knew better.
Here a quack, there a quack, everywhere a quack quack.

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11962
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2020, 10:16:49 PM »
Acceleration does not have to be relative to anything.
Incorrect, given our current set of assumptions in this conversation. If you'd like to explain to pp why his assumptions are silly, by all means, feel free to, but in the future, try to direct your criticisms appropriately.

I thought you knew better.
Given your track record, if you thought something was the case, it can be safely assumed not to be the case. Indeed, if anything, your agreeing with me just now made me doubt my position.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 10:20:43 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

Re: Flat Earth Satellites
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2020, 10:57:36 PM »
Quote
I already provided you with the FET frame. Your scenario does not apply to it in any meaningful way. Therefore, you clearly must have a different FoR in mind, or you simply presented an argument so incomplete that it does not have a defined meaning (let alone a truth value).

Sorry, I missed that.  An observer immediately above the Earth, at rest relative to the Earth...so how is that definition relevant to my point?

Quote
In RET, GPS satellites are accelerating or changing velocity (why did you feel the need to say the same thing twice?) relative to the Earth. And yet, according to RE'ers, the effects of time dilation are clearly observable. I dare suggest that your statement is therefore nonsense.

GPS satellites maintain a constant velocity.  They have to sustain a constant velocity to maintain balance with gravity.  Any faster and the satellite flies off into space and any slower, it crashes to earth.

Global Positioning System (GPS) satellites travel approximately 14,000 km/hour, relative to the Earth as a whole, as opposed to relative to a fixed point on its surface
https://sciencing.com/how-fast-do-gps-satellites-travel-12213923.html
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 02:54:58 AM by pricelesspearl »