Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« on: August 01, 2019, 04:12:12 PM »
Ok Lackey, present your evidence.

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2019, 04:14:38 PM »
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 04:22:50 PM by totallackey »

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2019, 04:24:56 PM »
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.

I'm waiting for evidence.  What regulations prevented competition?  How did they prevent competition as regulations themselves don't stifle such things usually.  And why would the pharma companies WANT more competition? 

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2019, 04:28:21 PM »
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.

I'm waiting for evidence.  What regulations prevented competition?  How did they prevent competition as regulations themselves don't stifle such things usually.  And why would the pharma companies WANT more competition?
The very nature of the word "regulation," speaks to stifling.

Pharma companies do not want competition.

Neither do oil companies.

Hence they lobby government officials to enact regulations prohibiting competition. Via the EPA and FDA.
A start up finds it cost prohibitive to even consider jumping through these types of hoops.


Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2019, 04:46:56 PM »
1. Please name a regulation.
2. They lobby against regulations. 
3. None of this explains the increased cost unless you say that all doctors, hospitals, and pharmasudical companies inflate their prices at the same time.

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2019, 10:31:01 AM »
1. Please name a regulation.
Pick one of any.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730786/
2. They lobby against regulations.
Which ones?
 
3. None of this explains the increased cost unless you say that all doctors, hospitals, and pharmasudical companies inflate their prices at the same time.
Have you an example where they do not?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 11:19:42 AM by totallackey »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2019, 11:41:55 PM »
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

Edit: this is wrong
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 02:34:55 AM by Rushy »

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Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2019, 12:57:48 AM »
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

The data I love led at show a fairly steady increase of government healthcare costs with the biggest spikes in the last 20 years coming during Reagan/Bush years then again in 2003 and in 2009.  The inflation of healthcare costs reached a 40 year low during the Obama administration. When you say healthcare costs skyrocketed at an unprecedented rate, what do you mean? Can you cite the data you are looking at?
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Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2019, 02:30:41 AM »
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

This had nothing to do with increasing healthcare costs. The costs have been steadily rising since the late 70s early 80s.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spending-healthcare-changed-time/#item-total-health-expenditures-have-increased-substantially-over-the-past-several-decades_2017

Health care makes up roughly 80% of the GDP. That means our economy is supported by healthcare. Do you think there is any incentive to decrease costs based on these profit margins? What would happen to wallstreet if healthcare suddenly became free?
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2019, 02:31:49 AM »
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

The data I love led at show a fairly steady increase of government healthcare costs with the biggest spikes in the last 20 years coming during Reagan/Bush years then again in 2003 and in 2009.  The inflation of healthcare costs reached a 40 year low during the Obama administration. When you say healthcare costs skyrocketed at an unprecedented rate, what do you mean? Can you cite the data you are looking at?

You are correct, healthcare costs did in fact not skyrocket after the ACA passed per https://www.cms.gov/research-statistics-data-and-systems/statistics-trends-and-reports/nationalhealthexpenddata/nationalhealthaccountshistorical.html

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

This had nothing to do with increasing healthcare costs. The costs have been steadily rising since the late 70s early 80s.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spending-healthcare-changed-time/#item-total-health-expenditures-have-increased-substantially-over-the-past-several-decades_2017

Health care makes up roughly 80% of the GDP. That means our economy is supported by healthcare. Do you think there is any incentive to decrease costs based on these profit margins? What would happen to wallstreet if healthcare suddenly became free?

You're right about the data. As far as Wall Street is concerned: the government paying for something doesn't make it free. There's plenty of companies that subsist entirely off milking taxpayer money from the government. The entire defense sector, for example.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 02:34:34 AM by Rushy »

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Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2019, 03:26:37 AM »
Americans pay more for healthcare than anyone else.  either let the government handle it, or don't, but right now it's perfectly set for corporations to milk it.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2019, 07:49:09 AM »
1. Please name a regulation.
Pick one of any.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730786/
2. They lobby against regulations.
Which ones?
 
3. None of this explains the increased cost unless you say that all doctors, hospitals, and pharmasudical companies inflate their prices at the same time.
Have you an example where they do not?

You didn't read the article, did you?  It very well contradicts your entire argument.  Good job.

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2019, 12:32:57 PM »
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.
I'm waiting for evidence.  What regulations prevented competition?  How did they prevent competition as regulations themselves don't stifle such things usually.  And why would the pharma companies WANT more competition? 
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.

I'm waiting for evidence.  What regulations prevented competition?  How did they prevent competition as regulations themselves don't stifle such things usually.  And why would the pharma companies WANT more competition?
The very nature of the word "regulation," speaks to stifling.

Pharma companies do not want competition.

Neither do oil companies.

Hence they lobby government officials to enact regulations prohibiting competition. Via the EPA and FDA.
A start up finds it cost prohibitive to even consider jumping through these types of hoops.
1. Please name a regulation.
Pick one of any.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730786/
2. They lobby against regulations. 
3. None of this explains the increased cost unless you say that all doctors, hospitals, and pharmasudical companies inflate their prices at the same time.
Have you an example where they do not?
You didn't read the article, did you?  It very well contradicts your entire argument.  Good job.
I did read the article.

Nothing contradictory.

But you seem to think: "The array of regulations that govern health care can seem overwhelming to people who work in the industry. Almost every aspect of the field is overseen by one regulatory body or another, and sometimes by several. Health care professionals may feel that they spend more time complying with rules that direct their work than actually doing the work itself." ...doesn't serve to jack up costs...

Or

"However, the present regulatory structure is neither uniform nor consistent. A broad range of regulatory bodies and programs apply in different ways to various aspects of the industry. Health care regulations are developed and enforced by all levels of government—federal, state, and local—and also by a large assortment of private organizations. At times, they operate without coordination."...these inconsistencies and non-uniform applications are simply designed to make things easier...

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2019, 02:09:54 PM »
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s. 

Then This.
"Rather than hindering its progress, the complex system of regulation, for all of its flaws, may actually have served to support and nurture the overall enterprise."

And really, the whole thing fails to discuss prices.  The conclusion he comes is that health regulation is good.

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2019, 03:39:08 PM »
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 

Then This.
"Rather than hindering its progress, the complex system of regulation, for all of its flaws, may actually have served to support and nurture the overall enterprise."

And really, the whole thing fails to discuss prices.  The conclusion he comes is that health regulation is good.
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?

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Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2019, 08:01:24 PM »
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 

No. You can find politicians campaigning on healthcare in the early 20th century.

Quote
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?

Healthcare costs per person are higher in the US than anywhere else. Countries with highly regulated socialized medicine, like Sweden are half of what they are in the USA.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2019, 06:10:53 AM »
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 
Hold on, let me fact check that...

Lets see... 1933(FDR), 1949(Truman), oh, 1965 which created medicare and medicaid, a few times by Ted Kennedy, Nixon and Carter.  The. Clinton tried but failed.  Then Obama.

Huh.  So it didn't start in the 90s.  You did mean 1990 not 1890, right?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28339426/


Quote
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?

The side I have now.  Which is me having about a 30% income tax for my bracket (about $45k/year), a co-pay of $30 per hospital or doctor visit(unless referred by another doctor), pay for items used for medical procedures(casts, stitches, bandages, etc...), free hospital stays, can choose any doctor so long as they have an opening, medicine is alot cheaper too and after paying about $260 a year, any further medication is paid for by the state.

All in all, its much cheaper.  And heavily regulated.

Oh and our population is smaller than the pop of NYC so not a lot of income compared to America.  Oh and we have a budget surplus and a ton of money in savings.  Ya know, fyi.

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2019, 06:52:16 AM »
The government. They are bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical industry (and many other industries)...

Is there really anything else to add to that?

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2019, 10:14:55 AM »
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 
Hold on, let me fact check that...

Lets see... 1933(FDR), 1949(Truman), oh, 1965 which created medicare and medicaid, a few times by Ted Kennedy, Nixon and Carter.  The. Clinton tried but failed.  Then Obama.

Huh.  So it didn't start in the 90s.  You did mean 1990 not 1890, right?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28339426/
If you read my post again, I stated, "...in vogue topic."

1933-in vogue topic...fact check for you...world wide Great Depression, Hitler...not health care...

1949 - in vogue topic...fact check for you...The Marshall Plan...Cold War commencement...Korean Peninsula...not health care...

Medicare and Medicaid not dominant subject topic during the 60's...Vietnam War, Charles Manson, burning bras, Abby Hoffman...

Clinton HIPAA, piling on costs...

Obama ACA, "...we will need to pass it to see what is in it..."
Quote
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?
The side I have now.  Which is me having about a 30% income tax for my bracket (about $45k/year), a co-pay of $30 per hospital or doctor visit(unless referred by another doctor), pay for items used for medical procedures(casts, stitches, bandages, etc...), free hospital stays, can choose any doctor so long as they have an opening, medicine is alot cheaper too and after paying about $260 a year, any further medication is paid for by the state.

All in all, its much cheaper.  And heavily regulated.

Oh and our population is smaller than the pop of NYC so not a lot of income compared to America.  Oh and we have a budget surplus and a ton of money in savings.  Ya know, fyi.
Yeah, we will see...the way I hear things, Norway is going broke buster...

Just in case you missed it...nothing is free, last I checked...

Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2019, 10:16:40 AM »
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 

No. You can find politicians campaigning on healthcare in the early 20th century.

Quote
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?

Healthcare costs per person are higher in the US than anywhere else. Countries with highly regulated socialized medicine, like Sweden are half of what they are in the USA.
People who want actual health care still come to the US to get it.