*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1163
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2019, 07:45:40 PM »
Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.

1. That's not true. Tom has said many times that the map I prefer is not a globe projection.

It is true, Tom is incorrect:

"Bing Maps Tile System
Map Projection

To make the map seamless, and to ensure that aerial images from different sources line up properly, we have to use a single projection for the entire world. We chose to use the Mercator projection.

To simplify the calculations, we use the spherical form of this projection, not the ellipsoidal form. Since the projection is used only for map display, and not for displaying numeric coordinates, we don’t need the extra precision of an ellipsoidal projection. The spherical projection causes approximately 0.33% scale distortion in the Y direction, which is not visually noticeable.
"

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/bingmaps/articles/bing-maps-tile-system

2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?

Well all of the 'FE' maps are, in fact, globe projections, from the AE (mono-pole) to the Lambert (Bi-pole) and everything inbetween. The OP is about how to make an FE map because one does not exist.

3. I've presented that map and gotten feedback from the FE community and not one single person said that they have a problem with my preferred map because it is a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection.

If the FE community doesn't have a problem with maps being globe projections then I guess they don't have a problem with the irony of it: FEr's using and displaying maps based upon a spherical earth.

4. It does not matter if people believe a globe projection, sphere projection, oblate spheroid projection, Cube projection, egg projection, flat disk projection, or any other projection. It depicts the earth as a flat 2d plane.

Yes it does matter. I'm confused as to why this is perpetually lost on you. How the flat 2D plane maps come to be is by flattening a globe. Get it, a globe.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

*

Offline TomInAustin

  • *
  • Posts: 786
  • Round Duh
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2019, 08:15:29 PM »
Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.

1. That's not true. Tom has said many times that the map I prefer is not a globe projection.
2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?
3. I've presented that map and gotten feedback from the FE community and not one single person said that they have a problem with my preferred map because it is a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection.
4. It does not matter if people believe a globe projection, sphere projection, oblate spheroid projection, Cube projection, egg projection, flat disk projection, or any other projection. It depicts the earth as a flat 2d plane.

The point is that a flat map is not possible using long known and accurate distances between points.   It is not possible to lay it out.
I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 575
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2019, 08:21:37 PM »
It is true, Tom is incorrect:

Your original point was that the FE community would reject Bing maps because you claim that is a projection of a Globe. I'm presenting evidence that the FE community has NOT rejected Bing as a FE map because it is a projection of a globe.





Well all of the 'FE' maps are, in fact, globe projections, from the AE (mono-pole) to the Lambert (Bi-pole) and everything inbetween. The OP is about how to make an FE map because one does not exist.


2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?

See above. Why even bother talking about a FE map if, based on your findings, EVERY map is a globe map.


If the FE community doesn't have a problem with maps being globe projections then I guess they don't have a problem with the irony of it: FEr's using and displaying maps based upon a spherical earth.

The FE response i've gotten, in regards to globe projection, was either silence or a disagreement with the idea that Bing maps is a globe projection. So your claim that the FE community would reject a map because, based on your research, it's a globe projection is incorrect.

Yes it does matter. I'm confused as to why this is perpetually lost on you. How the flat 2D plane maps come to be is by flattening a globe. Get it, a globe.

Well here we can just agree to disagree. Any map presented you will claim is a map of a globe. With that kind of mentality that EVERY map is a globe map then why even bother posting on these threads about making a non globe map? You will just say it's a globe map.




The point is that a flat map is not possible using long known and accurate distances between points.   It is not possible to lay it out.

What's wrong with Bing maps?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 08:24:27 PM by iamcpc »

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 354
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2019, 08:25:19 PM »
iamcpc, first, check my sig for more info about Tom.

Secondly, you only need to do one test to know that the Bing map is a globe projection and thus making the earth a globe;

Step one, go far north or far south (north canada or australia for example) and measure out a distance from east to west between two well known landarks you can spot on the Bing map.

Step two, go to the equator and do the same thing.

Step three, take a look at those two locations on the Bing map while fully zoomed out and compare the distance visually. and see how much of a discrepancy you find. For example if the two places you measured were 40 miles across, you'll see that the one in the north or south of the world will look longer on the Bing map.

Step four, do step three but on google earth and see that there more than likely wont be a discrepancy.

Do you agree? If not, I would say give it a go. By doing this you'll more than likely find out that the Bing map is a projection from a globe. If you do this while using the flat disk map instead of Bing, you'll find the southern hemesphere stretches a lot more because the northern hemesphere is pitching to the middle instead (well pitching probably isn't the right word).
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1163
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2019, 08:53:31 PM »
It is true, Tom is incorrect:

Your original point was that the FE community would reject Bing maps because you claim that is a projection of a Globe. I'm presenting evidence that the FE community has NOT rejected Bing as a FE map because it is a projection of a globe.

No, your original point was that Tom said your preferred map is not a globe projection. I and Microsoft say that is not true. And if the FE community is ok with using maps that are based on a globe, good for them. Though it is ironic.

Well all of the 'FE' maps are, in fact, globe projections, from the AE (mono-pole) to the Lambert (Bi-pole) and everything inbetween. The OP is about how to make an FE map because one does not exist.

2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?

See above. Why even bother talking about a FE map if, based on your findings, EVERY map is a globe map.

No again. It's not a matter of claiming anything. Microsoft states that their Bing Map uses the Mercator Globe Projection. That is not a claim, it its a fact. The bother in talking about creating an FE map is to create an accurate flat earth map NOT based upon a globe projection. How do you not get that? It's the holy grail of the FE movement.


If the FE community doesn't have a problem with maps being globe projections then I guess they don't have a problem with the irony of it: FEr's using and displaying maps based upon a spherical earth.

The FE response i've gotten, in regards to globe projection, was either silence or a disagreement with the idea that Bing maps is a globe projection. So your claim that the FE community would reject a map because, based on your research, it's a globe projection is incorrect.

As for the communities silence or disagreement regarding Bing Maps being a globe projection, I suggest they take it up with Microsoft. I've already given you the direct quote from Microsoft stating that their map is a Mercator globe projection. What more evidence would anyone need? Unless the community thinks Microsoft is lying about their own map. If so, that's not my problem.
Whether they reject or accept the Miscrosoft map because it's a globe projection is not my problem. I don't really care one way or the other. I just find it ironic that FEr's who do accept the Bing map are essentially accepting a globe earth. If you don't get that I can't help you.

Yes it does matter. I'm confused as to why this is perpetually lost on you. How the flat 2D plane maps come to be is by flattening a globe. Get it, a globe.

Well here we can just agree to disagree. Any map presented you will claim is a map of a globe. With that kind of mentality that EVERY map is a globe map then why even bother posting on these threads about making a non globe map? You will just say it's a globe map.

We can't just agree to disagree unless you can refute Microsoft's claim that their map is based on a spherical model of earth. Your only argument would seem to be that they are lying.
And no, any map presented I will not claim anything. I will research the map to see whether it's a globe projection or not then present the facts that show whether it is or isn't. Like I did with the Bing Map.
And, like I just wrote, I will not, "just say it's a globe map". Do you get what the OP is about? It's about trying to figure out how to make an FE map that is NOT based on a globe projection.


The point is that a flat map is not possible using long known and accurate distances between points.   It is not possible to lay it out.

What's wrong with Bing maps?

There's nothing wrong with Bing Maps. For the millionth time, it is a Mercator globe projection map. To an FEr, the fact that it is derived from a spherical earth might be an issue, or might not be. That's for each individual to decide.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 575
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2019, 09:45:16 PM »
Do you get what the OP is about? It's about trying to figure out how to make an FE map that is NOT based on a globe projection.

That's funny because I read the OP and no where does it mention what sort of projection the map may, or may not, be based upon.


And no, any map presented I will not claim anything. I will research the map to see whether it's a globe projection or not then present the facts that show whether it is or isn't. Like I did with the Bing Map.

Then we can use Mapquest.com Is there any specific documentation you can find about the MapQuest map which specifically says it's based on a globe projection?

If you don't like that map then we can use the map on https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/ (although it does not have an interactive scale)

If you don't like that map then we can use the map on http://suncalc.net

If you don't like that map then we can use the map https://www.openstreetmap.org
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 09:50:30 PM by iamcpc »

Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2019, 09:55:03 PM »
Here are a few shots of my attempt.
That's great work. What tool did you use? I used Paint.Net which is very fiddly for this sort of thing.
My aim in this was to show that the reason there is no flat earth map is that no flat earth map is possible
Given the known distances between places, they can't be plotted on a flat plane for the same reason that any map of earth requires projection.
Fundamentally it's impossible to perfectly represent a globe on a flat plane.
I chose 4 places in continental America to get away from arguments about measuring distances over oceans, but maybe that scale still isn't big enough to see the problem clearly.
The only counter argument I see is that the distances are wrong.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1163
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2019, 10:00:06 PM »
Do you get what the OP is about? It's about trying to figure out how to make an FE map that is NOT based on a globe projection.

That's funny because I read the OP and no where does it mention what sort of projection the map may, or may not, be based upon.

Are you being obtuse on purpose? Title of thread: How to make a FE map, step one. FE stands for Flat Earth. Flat Earth means not a Globe Earth. Making an FE map means making one not derived from a Globe. Means a map that does not use a projection.

And no, any map presented I will not claim anything. I will research the map to see whether it's a globe projection or not then present the facts that show whether it is or isn't. Like I did with the Bing Map.

Then we can use Mapquest.com Is there any specific documentation you can find about the MapQuest map which specifically says it's based on a globe projection?

If you don't like that map then we can use the map on https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/ (although it does not have an interactive scale)

If you don't like that map then we can use the map on http://suncalc.net

If you don't like that map then we can use the map https://www.openstreetmap.org

If they are using a Mercator projection like Bing, then yes they are globe projections. I suspect they are, but don't know for sure. But I need some time to look at them. I'll get back to you.

EDIT: Researched the above, all are Globe Projections:

MapQuest: Yes, uses Mercator Globe Projection
https://developer.mapquest.com/documentation/maps-sdk/android/v2.0.9/javadoc/index.html?com/mapquest/mapping/models/MercatorProjection.html

TimeandDate.com: Yes, from the distortion there is some sort of projection being used. Look at Greenland, for example. A true Flat Earth map would have zero distortion.
No documentation found.

Suncalc.net: Yes, uses Google’s Mercator Globe Projection
I get an error message that says “This page can’t load Google Maps correctly” but it still works. Its a browser issue.

OpenStreetMap.org: Yes, uses a modified Mercator Globe Projection
"Most of OSM, including the main tiling system, uses a Pseudo-Mercator projection where the Earth is modelized as if it was a perfect a sphere.”
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mercator

Bing: Yes, uses Mercator Globe Projection
"To make the map seamless, and to ensure that aerial images from different sources line up properly, we have to use a single projection for the entire world. We chose to use the Mercator projection."
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/bingmaps/articles/bing-maps-tile-system
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 10:52:03 PM by stack »
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 354
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2019, 10:10:17 PM »
iamcpc, is English your first language? I'm assuming something is lost in translation here because I know myself and others have pointed out how a projection of the globe to a flat map cannot be used as a flat earth map. Hence this thread asking how to map out a flat earth.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 575
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2019, 10:52:45 PM »
Are you being obtuse on purpose? Title of thread: How to make a FE map, step one.

I'm not being obtuse at all. I'm pointing out that the title of the thread is :

"How to make a FE map, step one."

and not

"How to make a FE map which, is not derived from a globe projection, step one.

Furthermore, in the body the the original post, no where is any sort of projection discussed. You have added this after the fact.


iamcpc, is English your first language?

yes


myself and others have pointed out how a projection of the globe to a flat map cannot be used as a flat earth map.

First off
Well there is where the debate lies. I disagree. I think you can draw a map of the earth which looks like a map which was based on a Globe projection and have it not represent a Globe. I don't think that globe projections don't have interactive scales like Bing maps does.

Second off
Arguing about the type of projection the map may or may not have is a red herring. There is a map of the earth. A map that I have personally used to travel thousands and thousands of miles.

Third off
I have provided similar maps (although not as thoroughly tested) in which there is no documentation saying the map is based on a globe projection. I could provide dozens more.

Finally Tom has provided evidence which suggest that the maps which were claimed to be "globe projections" were really not. I can't find the link but I sent him a message.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 11:11:10 PM by iamcpc »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1163
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2019, 11:05:56 PM »
Are you being obtuse on purpose? Title of thread: How to make a FE map, step one.

I'm not being obtuse at all. I'm pointing out that the title of the thread is :

"How to make a FE map, step one."

and not

"How to make a FE map which, is not derived from a globe projection, step one.

Furthermore, in the body the the original post, no where is any sort of projection discussed. You have added this after the fact.

Because it doesn't need to be spelled out. Even though I've done so already numerous times. A true flat earth map would NOT need a projection. It would be projectionless. You wouldn't need to project a flat earth onto a flat map. So by default, someone uttering a phrase like "How to make a FE map," defacto means NO PROJECTION. Get it?

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 354
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2019, 12:18:12 AM »
iamcpc, is English your first language?

yes


myself and others have pointed out how a projection of the globe to a flat map cannot be used as a flat earth map.

First off
Well there is where the debate lies. I disagree. I think you can draw a map of the earth which looks like a map which was based on a Globe projection and have it not represent a Globe. I don't think that globe projections don't have interactive scales like Bing maps does.

Second off
Arguing about the type of projection the map may or may not have is a red herring. There is a map of the earth. A map that I have personally used to travel thousands and thousands of miles.

Third off
I have provided similar maps (although not as thoroughly tested) in which there is no documentation saying the map is based on a globe projection. I could provide dozens more.

Finally Tom has provided evidence which suggest that the maps which were claimed to be "globe projections" were really not. I can't find the link but I sent him a message.

Ok then could you explain where you're getting confused so we can move past this?

Again 'interactive scale' means nothing here, full view of the Bing map is distorted you cannot get around that fact. Microsoft even state that it's a distorted map, it's the only way to have a globe mapped to a flat image without maybe splitting it up like an orange peel.

Talking about the fact that the Bing map is a projected map from a globe is not a red herring, it's the whole point in this thread.

Ok, so you provided other websites to maps, Well they're all projections from the globe once again. Compare the landmass sizes to google earth to see the distortion. Once again, this is why this thread exists. To map out the world would require manually measuring distances which if you then compare to globe maps you can find out if the globe maps are wrong (Which I'll wager that globe maps like google maps aren't wrong).

You can provide all the projected maps you want... I find it strange that you've only pointed to projected maps though and not maps that not using a projection. Since you've confirmed english is your first language I can only assume now that you've completely misunderstood what makes these maps projections of the globe... But I've already explained and so have others so please by all means explain to me where you're becoming confused.

At one point I took the time to remap the Timeanddate map to a globe just to show how lighting happened to be perfect on the globe, maybe this can also help show how projections are distorted too;





And here is a gif to show you the difference in the actual size of countries compared to the distorted sizes caused by the projection.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 08:56:53 AM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

*

Offline TomInAustin

  • *
  • Posts: 786
  • Round Duh
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2019, 02:58:46 PM »
Here are a few shots of my attempt.
That's great work. What tool did you use? I used Paint.Net which is very fiddly for this sort of thing.
My aim in this was to show that the reason there is no flat earth map is that no flat earth map is possible
Given the known distances between places, they can't be plotted on a flat plane for the same reason that any map of earth requires projection.
Fundamentally it's impossible to perfectly represent a globe on a flat plane.
I chose 4 places in continental America to get away from arguments about measuring distances over oceans, but maybe that scale still isn't big enough to see the problem clearly.
The only counter argument I see is that the distances are wrong.

I use google Scetch Up.  It's free and works very well.  I have used it to generate plans for a deck build and a 3rd garage bay build out. 

https://www.sketchup.com/
I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 575
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2019, 03:36:26 PM »
First off
Well there is where the debate lies. I disagree. I think you can draw a map of the earth which looks like a map which was based on a Globe projection and have it not represent a Globe. I don't think that globe projections don't have interactive scales like Bing maps does.

Second off
Arguing about the type of projection the map may or may not have is a red herring. There is a map of the earth. A map that I have personally used to travel thousands and thousands of miles.

Third off
I have provided similar maps (although not as thoroughly tested) in which there is no documentation saying the map is based on a globe projection. I could provide dozens more.

Finally Tom has provided evidence which suggest that the maps which were claimed to be "globe projections" were really not. I can't find the link but I sent him a message.



Ok then could you explain where you're getting confused so we can move past this?

I'm not confused. I'm disagreeing.

Again 'interactive scale' means nothing here

I disagree. I think the interactive scale does mean something.

Bing map is distorted you cannot get around that fact. Microsoft even state that it's a distorted map, it's the only way to have a globe mapped to a flat image without maybe splitting it up like an orange peel.

By your definition Bing maps is distorted. By my definition it is not.

Talking about the fact that the Bing map is a projected map from a globe is not a red herring, it's the whole point in this thread.

Again this thread was about the first steps to be taken to make a map of the earth. Hence the title: "How to make a FE map, step one."

Everyone is acting like the title is "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one."

Ok, so you provided other websites to maps, Well they're all projections from the globe once again.

Do you have any documentation that supports this or are you just making it up?

Compare the landmass sizes to google earth to see the distortion. Once again, this is why this thread exists.

Again we disagree. If the map has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed I don't consider that distorted.

Which I'll wager that globe maps like google maps aren't wrong

Even Google maps has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed. By your logic it's distorted.

You can provide all the projected maps you want... I find it strange that you've only pointed to projected maps though and not maps that not using a projection.

I only ever saw any sort of documentation that Bing maps was a Mercator  projection.

This documentation says that the Mercator projection is not based on a globe/sphere/oblate spheroid but rather based on a collection of flat maps:

https://wiki.tfes.org/World_Geodetic_System_1984

 
And here is a gif to show you the difference in the actual size of countries compared to the distorted sizes caused by the projection.




That would be true if the maps didn't have an interactive scale.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 04:08:12 PM by iamcpc »

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 354
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2019, 05:11:44 PM »
Do you believe people become massive at the poles? Do you think if I were to travel from the north pole all the way to the equator then to the south pole that I would me large, then normal sized, then large again? If not then why would you think the landmasses do this?
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 575
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2019, 06:10:10 PM »
Do you believe people become massive at the poles? Do you think if I were to travel from the north pole all the way to the equator then to the south pole that I would me large, then normal sized, then large again?

no.

If not then why would you think the landmasses do this?

I feel like we are getting off topic here. Why I think the landmasses do this is a moot point. What is the first step to creating a flat earth map. I suggested several possible first steps and they were all ignored.

 I will answer though.

There are a lot of possible reasons that I can think of across the entire FE bell curve spectrum.

The FE side of this particular model could say maybe they were deliberately made that way, and claimed to be a global projection, to support RE. When I go to the left of the middle those kinds of ideas, while possible, I believe are less probable.


A neutral explanation says that maybe our cartography technology has not gotten advanced enough for that.
A neutral explanation could say I've never been to the South pole, North pole, or Greenland so I cant personally verify how big or small they are.
A neutral explanation could say maybe the earth is shaped like a contact lens or a plate that curves up or down on the ends which causes this distortion.
A neutral explanation could say maybe parts of the earth are curved or have changes in altitude which creates the need for an interactive scale.

A RE explanation could be that the earth is a sphere and therefore it's impossible to have a 2d map without an interactive scale with continents the right size
A RE explanation could be that the earth is an oblate spheroid and therefore it's impossible to have a 2d map without an interactive scale with continents the right size


these don't make a lot of sense to me because in the past few years I've read news articles about advancements made in global cartography and new maps made in which the size of the continents is substantially more accurate. While those maps don't reflect this particular model they significantly weaken the RE explanations listed above.

Even if the earth was a sphere or oblate spheroid I can't imagine that in thousands and thousands of years they couldn't take a sphere, break it down to individual surface molecules using a supercomputer and project those molecules onto pixels (or whatever version of pixels they have 10k years in the future) and make a 2d image which is both flat and undistorted by your definition.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 06:14:41 PM by iamcpc »

Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2019, 07:44:04 PM »
If one drove the most direct route from NYC to LA and a verified OBC said it was 2800 miles (40 hrs at avg 70 mph) and when looking at a map said the straight line is ~2500 miles would FE'ers accept that as a reasonable estimate?
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 1163
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2019, 08:26:15 PM »


Again 'interactive scale' means nothing here

I disagree. I think the interactive scale does mean something.

It doesn't. We are talking about a World flat earth map. Not a city/state/country flat earth map. So if we are talking about the World then you must be zoomed out. Therefore one scale = World.


Bing map is distorted you cannot get around that fact. Microsoft even state that it's a distorted map, it's the only way to have a globe mapped to a flat image without maybe splitting it up like an orange peel.

By your definition Bing maps is distorted. By my definition it is not.

No, by Microsoft's definition:

"Although the Mercator projection significantly distorts scale and area (particularly near the poles), it has two important properties that outweigh the scale distortion:

1) It’s a conformal projection, which means that it preserves the shape of relatively small objects. This is especially important when showing aerial imagery, because we want to avoid distorting the shape of buildings. Square buildings should appear square, not rectangular.

2) It’s a cylindrical projection, which means that north and south are always straight up and down, and west and east are always straight left and right."
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/bingmaps/articles/bing-maps-tile-system

How many time do we have to go over this?

Talking about the fact that the Bing map is a projected map from a globe is not a red herring, it's the whole point in this thread.

Again this thread was about the first steps to be taken to make a map of the earth. Hence the title: "How to make a FE map, step one."

Everyone is acting like the title is "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one."

A true flat earth map by definition has no projection of any shape. No projection. As I and others have said many times, there is no need to project a flat earth onto a flat map. It's 1 to 1.

The entire point of this and any other discussion about an FE map is that the Flat Earth Community does not have a map to support their theory that the earth is flat. At least one that is NOT based on a spherical earth. Which is the whole point of trying to make a true flat earth map, one that is not based on a spherical earth. It is the holy grail of the entire flat earth movement.

If it would make you more comfortable, I can ask Jimster to change the title of this thread to "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one." But I shouldn't have to as you should understand by now.


Ok, so you provided other websites to maps, Well they're all projections from the globe once again.

Do you have any documentation that supports this or are you just making it up?

You probably missed my edit to the previous post:

MapQuest: Yes, uses Mercator Globe Projection
https://developer.mapquest.com/documentation/maps-sdk/android/v2.0.9/javadoc/index.html?com/mapquest/mapping/models/MercatorProjection.html

TimeandDate.com: Yes, from the distortion there is some sort of projection being used. Look at Greenland, for example. A true Flat Earth map would have zero distortion.
No documentation found.

Suncalc.net: Yes, uses Google’s Mercator Globe Projection
I get an error message that says “This page can’t load Google Maps correctly” but it still works. Its a browser issue.

OpenStreetMap.org: Yes, uses a modified Mercator Globe Projection
"Most of OSM, including the main tiling system, uses a Pseudo-Mercator projection where the Earth is modelized as if it was a perfect a sphere.”
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mercator

Bing: Yes, uses Mercator Globe Projection
"To make the map seamless, and to ensure that aerial images from different sources line up properly, we have to use a single projection for the entire world. We chose to use the Mercator projection."
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/bingmaps/articles/bing-maps-tile-system

You can look this stuff up just as easily as I can. Maybe put a little effort into some research.

Compare the landmass sizes to google earth to see the distortion. Once again, this is why this thread exists.

Again we disagree. If the map has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed I don't consider that distorted.

Just because you disagree doesn't make you right. Read Microsoft's description of the distortion in Bing maps above. And again, we're not talking about scaling. We're talking about a world map which means you use one scale, the zoomed out one. Otherwise, you can't see the whole world.

Which I'll wager that globe maps like google maps aren't wrong

Even Google maps has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed. By your logic it's distorted.

See above.

You can provide all the projected maps you want... I find it strange that you've only pointed to projected maps though and not maps that not using a projection.

I only ever saw any sort of documentation that Bing maps was a Mercator  projection.

This documentation says that the Mercator projection is not based on a globe/sphere/oblate spheroid but rather based on a collection of flat maps:

https://wiki.tfes.org/World_Geodetic_System_1984

No where in the wiki or the supporting documentation does it say the Mercator projection is not based on a globe/sphere/oblate spheroid but rather based on a collection of flat maps. Tom's arguments are around State Plane maps which if you actually read the supporting  documentation are great for a State view but quickly lose accuracy the bigger the area. According to Tom's logic the FE community could just paste together all the State plane maps and boom, there's your flat earth map of America. However, in aggregate, it would be a wildly inaccurate map of America.

And actually, the wiki article and supporting documentation quite nicely points out how maps are based on a spherical earth.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

  • *
  • Posts: 575
    • View Profile
Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2019, 08:42:00 PM »
I disagree. I think the interactive scale does mean something.

It doesn't. We are talking about a World flat earth map. Not a city/state/country flat earth map. So if we are talking about the World then you must be zoomed out. Therefore one scale = World.

I disagree. We can just agree to disagree and move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.


By your definition Bing maps is distorted. By my definition it is not.

No, by Microsoft's definition:
...
How many time do we have to go over this?

I have defined what I my criteria for distortion are and how bing maps does not meet my criteria for distortion.
We can just agree to disagree and move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.

Again this thread was about the first steps to be taken to make a map of the earth. Hence the title: "How to make a FE map, step one."

Everyone is acting like the title is "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one."

A true flat earth map by definition has no projection of any shape. No projection. As I and others have said many times, there is no need to project a flat earth onto a flat map. It's 1 to 1.

The entire point of this and any other discussion about an FE map is that the Flat Earth Community does not have a map to support their theory that the earth is flat. At least one that is NOT based on a spherical earth. Which is the whole point of trying to make a true flat earth map, one that is not based on a spherical earth. It is the holy grail of the entire flat earth movement.

If it would make you more comfortable, I can ask Jimster to change the title of this thread to "How to make a FE map, in which the map takes no inspiration from any sort of global projection, step one." But I shouldn't have to as you should understand by now.


We can just agree to disagree on the whole projection thing. It's a red herring anyway.
We can just agree to disagree and move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.


TimeandDate.com: Yes, from the distortion there is some sort of projection being used. Look at Greenland, for example. A true Flat Earth map would have zero distortion.
No documentation found.


Suncalc.net: Yes, uses Google’s Mercator Globe Projection
I get an error message that says “This page can’t load Google Maps correctly” but it still works. Its a browser issue.

I notice you don't have any documentation to go along with these claims. Can we move away from the red herring and move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.






Again we disagree. If the map has an interactive scale which changes depending on where you look and how far in you are zoomed I don't consider that distorted.

Just because you disagree doesn't make you right. Read Microsoft's description of the distortion in Bing maps above. And again, we're not talking about scaling. We're talking about a world map which means you use one scale, the zoomed out one. Otherwise, you can't see the whole world.

Can we move away from this pointless red herring debate about if you think i'm right or not. Can we move on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be?

No where in the wiki or the supporting documentation does it say the Mercator projection is not based on a globe/sphere/oblate spheroid but rather based on a collection of flat maps. Tom's arguments are around State Plane maps which if you actually read the supporting  documentation are great for a State view but quickly lose accuracy the bigger the area. According to Tom's logic the FE community could just paste together all the State plane maps and boom, there's your flat earth map of America. However, in aggregate, it would be a wildly inaccurate map of America.

And actually, the wiki article and supporting documentation quite nicely points out how maps are based on a spherical earth.


Would it help you move on if I said you are 100% correct and I am 100% wrong and have changed by views an opinions to perfectly match yours? If so I will do it in a second. As long it it would help us move away from this pointless unwinnable red herring debate and on to more pressing points like what the first step in creating a FE map would be.

Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2019, 09:24:57 PM »
What would the fe map look like if projected/wrapped around a globe?
Would the perimeter ice wall form or wrap around the globes south pole?
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.