Offline jimster

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How to make a FE map, step one.
« on: July 08, 2019, 01:53:04 AM »
Mathematically, if one knows the distances between known locations, one can fit them to a surface and produce an accurate map.

But what will FE take as thise distances?

Can we use Google, mapquest, bing, etc?

If not, how can we determine those distances?

I need several landmarks spaced hundreds of miles apart and their distances. How to get?

For instance, Stockholm, Paris, Cairo, Moscow. What are the distances between these cities? Can I use the Google/bing/mapquest distances?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2019, 07:18:22 AM »
You could repeat Norwood's method of the 1600s, and take a 'chain' of known length. Walk between the two cities you select, stretching the chain, one length at a time, counting the number of chains between the two cities, and making allowances for gradient as you go.
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2019, 10:35:50 AM »
I believe AATW had started to do this. Suprisngly I've seen many flat earther dispute even manual methods of measurement for long distances. Even rejecting the notion that a bicycle could be used effectively as measuring wheels. if measuring wheels aren't trusted I doubt much else would be accepted, which would leave flat earthers dead in the water with any attempt at mapping the world.

Or they can just accept that google maps is accurate and use that, since it's used by millions eery day to nagivate albeit mostly short distances, it's safe to assume it's accuracy. I used google maps to nagivate lands end to john o groats by bicycle and had equipment on my bike to determine how many miles I'd gone, which confirmed google with a certain margin. However lands end to john o groats is a distance of longitude more than latitude and less of a problem for a flat earth in the northern hemisphere. I haven't had the time off work to travel across Europe by bicycle this year which is sad, but other people have done it suprisingly with no real navigation issues.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2019, 05:11:15 PM »
Mathematically, if one knows the distances between known locations, one can fit them to a surface and produce an accurate map.

But what will FE take as thise distances?

Can we use Google, mapquest, bing, etc?

If not, how can we determine those distances?

I need several landmarks spaced hundreds of miles apart and their distances. How to get?

For instance, Stockholm, Paris, Cairo, Moscow. What are the distances between these cities? Can I use the Google/bing/mapquest distances?

Making a map which is accepted by 80% of the flat earth community is totally impossible. Anyone such as myself who believes there is no ice wall will reject any map that has an ice wall and visa versa. If 55% of the community believes there is an ice wall and 45% believe there is not the best you can possibly do is 55% which is unreasonable.

Even among the 55% who believe there is an ice wall you could put the north pole in the middle which would eliminate the biblical view that something like Zion or Jerusalem is in the center.

Would the ice wall map have an edge or be infinite? If you are talking about finite flat disk model with an ice wall, no dome, and no firmament, and the north pole in the center I would guess that only 30% of the FE community would accept that model.

Before even starting to discuss distances which will be heavily disputed (with each individual accepting the distances which support their own model while rejecting distances which weaken their own model) why don't we just start with the continents and their locations. For example North America is North of South America. China and Russia are in Asia. Etc.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 06:12:33 PM by iamcpc »

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2019, 07:48:19 PM »
iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2019, 09:17:15 PM »
iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.

Wow.

It's my belief that the Canada is North of the United States.  I've personally traveled North and reached Canada with over 40 people who all corroborated the direction of travel and final location. We tracked landmarks on the way. At the end of the journey, when we arrived in Canada, 100% of people who took the trip with me agreed that Canada is North of the United states.

I spoke with about 2 dozen other people who have been to Canada but didn't travel there with me. They all corroborated that Canada is North of the United States.

I've also been to several states along the East Coast. Although with a smaller group. Again corroborating travel through dozens of methods. There is a MASSIVE body of water all along the East coast of the United States.

My willingness to reject a map which shows that Canada to the East of the United States is a rejection of science???

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2019, 09:33:44 PM »
To iam's point, I do think it's impossible to create an agreed on, even partially, accurate FE map embraced by the community.

If the first step is to lay out where the continents/countries are, where do you start? With the most common FE layout, the AE/Gleason type with the N.Pole at the center? It's been done. Then you apply google/bing/yahoo map distances to, especially the southern hemiplane, and what do you get? Wildly incorrect distances. So then the FE claim is that the google/bing/yahoo map distances are incorrect with no other easy way for an FE to measure the distances by themselves. So where are we then? Back to square one.

There's a reason there is no FE map which should be pretty clear at this point.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2019, 11:27:54 PM »
iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.

Wow.

It's my belief that the Canada is North of the United States.  I've personally traveled North and reached Canada with over 40 people who all corroborated the direction of travel and final location. We tracked landmarks on the way. At the end of the journey, when we arrived in Canada, 100% of people who took the trip with me agreed that Canada is North of the United states.

I spoke with about 2 dozen other people who have been to Canada but didn't travel there with me. They all corroborated that Canada is North of the United States.

I've also been to several states along the East Coast. Although with a smaller group. Again corroborating travel through dozens of methods. There is a MASSIVE body of water all along the East coast of the United States.

My willingness to reject a map which shows that Canada to the East of the United States is a rejection of science???
No you seemed to have blown over where I said "findings"... as you've obviously been 'finding' that Canada is north of America it would be a rejection of a collaborative effort to say Canada is to the east because of some belief one may have. That would the failure of science; rejecting the findings that Canada is in fact north of America.

If for example someone said Canada is east of America because the bible said so or something like that, that would be to reject findings based on a belief. What you said earlier is along those lines. At least your pacman map is a closer to the supposed shape of the earth than a disk map even if you have misunderstood it.

People saying they reject actual measurements because they already have a set mind that the earth is a disk are doing something wrong... That's the point I'm making. Come at it with a clear, non biased point of view and you may find that measurements, may lead you to finding the earth to be a globe~ But don't reject said findings if it's not flat.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2019, 11:58:05 PM »


iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.

No you seemed to have blown over where I said "findings"


ok then i'll rephrase my response



It's my belief that the Canada is North of the United States.  I've personally traveled North and reached Canada with over 40 people who all corroborated the direction of travel and final location. We tracked landmarks on the way. At the end of the journey, when we arrived in Canada, 100% of people who took the trip with me agreed that Canada is North of the United states.

I spoke with about 2 dozen other people who have been to Canada but didn't travel there with me. They all corroborated that Canada is North of the United States.

I've also been to several states along the East Coast. Although with a smaller group. Again corroborating travel through dozens of methods. There is a MASSIVE body of water all along the East coast of the United States.

My willingness to reject a map which in which someone else's findings show that Canada is East of the United States is a rejection of science???

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2019, 12:45:54 AM »


iamcpc, if you're already willing to reject any findings of a map that doesn't conform with your belief you've already failed at science in general.

No you seemed to have blown over where I said "findings"


ok then i'll rephrase my response



It's my belief that the Canada is North of the United States.  I've personally traveled North and reached Canada with over 40 people who all corroborated the direction of travel and final location. We tracked landmarks on the way. At the end of the journey, when we arrived in Canada, 100% of people who took the trip with me agreed that Canada is North of the United states.

I spoke with about 2 dozen other people who have been to Canada but didn't travel there with me. They all corroborated that Canada is North of the United States.

I've also been to several states along the East Coast. Although with a smaller group. Again corroborating travel through dozens of methods. There is a MASSIVE body of water all along the East coast of the United States.

My willingness to reject a map which in which someone else's findings show that Canada is East of the United States is a rejection of science???
No, but you're immediately assuming anyone elses findings will show canada as east? Why are you already assuming anything anyone else comes up with is incorrect before they've come up with it? I'm under the assumption that if you measure things out correctly you will more than likely find that the map is layed out in such a way that can only be on a globe, because humans have already mapped out the world and we travel using said maps with no problems (short of reading the map wrong or making a wrong turn but hey that's not the maps fault).

I know already what you have accepted as a visually accurate map, and that's the bing map but correct me if I'm wrong. If you map out the world you'll see the bing map is represented stretched. What will you do when you find out that Canada is more stretched on your map than your findings will show? Will you reject your findings or will you come to the conclusion that the northern hemesphere stretches the further north you go?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3745016/Our-world-maps-WRONG-Countries-nearer-poles-distorted-appear-bigger-are.html
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2019, 12:53:35 AM »
Here's how the Bing map (and other Mercator projection maps) come to be and hence the distortion:

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2019, 01:09:29 AM »
I know already what you have accepted as a visually accurate map, and that's the bing map but correct me if I'm wrong. If you map out the world you'll see the bing map is represented stretched. What will you do when you find out that Canada is more stretched on your map than your findings will show? Will you reject your findings or will you come to the conclusion that the northern hemesphere stretches the further north you go?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3745016/Our-world-maps-WRONG-Countries-nearer-poles-distorted-appear-bigger-are.html

This thread is about making a FE map. Unfortunately, based on each person's individual findings, there is a lot of discrepancy about the position/location of the continents.

There is discrepancy, based on each individual's findings,  about the existence of things like a great ice wall or firmament.

We are not even to the Area of the nations, how "stretched out" they are,  what projection the map may, or may not, be based on etc etc.

A fundamental first step towards making a FE map is agreeing on the general location of the continents/countries. Is there a great ice wall? Because it there is it should be on the map. Is there a South pole? Is there a North pole?

I am of the believe, based on my findings, that there is a North pole and a South pole.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 01:11:30 AM by iamcpc »

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2019, 01:51:42 AM »
I know already what you have accepted as a visually accurate map, and that's the bing map but correct me if I'm wrong. If you map out the world you'll see the bing map is represented stretched. What will you do when you find out that Canada is more stretched on your map than your findings will show? Will you reject your findings or will you come to the conclusion that the northern hemesphere stretches the further north you go?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3745016/Our-world-maps-WRONG-Countries-nearer-poles-distorted-appear-bigger-are.html

This thread is about making a FE map. Unfortunately, based on each person's individual findings, there is a lot of discrepancy about the position/location of the continents.

To your point there is a great discrepancy about the position/location of the continents for FE. But should there be? I mean we're literally talking about the position/location of the continents. Is that really up for debate? Kind of a rhetorical question, but one that has always mystified me about the FE movement.

The problem is that FE can't seem to put the continents/countries where everyone else on the planet knows where they are. I mean we have planetary transport of goods and humans on a daily basis that needs to know where such things are in order to get the job done. Yet there is still a discrepancy? Mind boggling.

So enter the realm of, "ok, let's create an FE map." Then a multitude of FE continental layouts get tossed into the pot and no one of the FE nor RE side can make any sense of them. If a flat earth, a flat earth map should be easy, 1 to 1. No projections, no distortions, etc. But to date, it can't be done. Because no one in FE can agree on a continental/country layout and when they do, it blows up distance-wise with what is observed/reported reality.

So I don't know where that leaves the effort of creating an accurate FE map. But as I've contended all along, no accurate FE map, no FE.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2019, 02:59:52 PM »
Mathematically, if one knows the distances between known locations, one can fit them to a surface and produce an accurate map.

But what will FE take as thise distances?

Can we use Google, mapquest, bing, etc?

If not, how can we determine those distances?

I need several landmarks spaced hundreds of miles apart and their distances. How to get?

For instance, Stockholm, Paris, Cairo, Moscow. What are the distances between these cities? Can I use the Google/bing/mapquest distances?

Of course, you can use these distances, people use Google maps every day to accurately travel.   I started a project just like this last year or so and plotted known distances using intersections of the circles to place points.   It works well in the northern hemisphere but as soon as you add southern points it breaks down.  I didn't take it any further than a few points due to lack of interest.
I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2019, 03:03:37 PM »
I believe AATW had started to do this.
I had a go but I did make a mistake. A couple of mistakes actually.
One was I used the miles between places as the diameter of the circles I was drawing when I should have used that as the radius.
That mistake actually didn't matter though, it just meant the scale was half what I intended.
The second mistake was I used the wrong value for one of my circles. I'll be honest and admit that when I corrected that mistake the circles were closer to aligning at the 4th place although they didn't match perfectly. I could have another go with 4 other cities, maybe the fact I chose cities arranged roughly like a 5 of diamonds meant there was less difference between a globe and a flat plane.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2019, 03:57:14 PM »
I believe AATW had started to do this.
I had a go but I did make a mistake. A couple of mistakes actually.
One was I used the miles between places as the diameter of the circles I was drawing when I should have used that as the radius.
That mistake actually didn't matter though, it just meant the scale was half what I intended.
The second mistake was I used the wrong value for one of my circles. I'll be honest and admit that when I corrected that mistake the circles were closer to aligning at the 4th place although they didn't match perfectly. I could have another go with 4 other cities, maybe the fact I chose cities arranged roughly like a 5 of diamonds meant there was less difference between a globe and a flat plane.


Here are a few shots of my attempt.

The first one is in my backyard,  Austin, Houston, and Dallas.   It looks very similar to a triangle placed on Google Earth



The 2nd one starts to fail a bit, NYC, Mexico City, and Paris.  The lack of curvature flattens out the triangle.



3.  Rio, Moscow, and Sydney.  The angles are obviously wrong.



3a.  Add Johannesburg to the mix and the problems are even more obvious.


I don't have to go to the gym, I get all my exercise jumping to conclusions.-sandokhan

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2019, 04:29:48 PM »

The problem is that FE can't seem to put the continents/countries where everyone else on the planet knows where they are. I mean we have planetary transport of goods and humans on a daily basis that needs to know where such things are in order to get the job done. Yet there is still a discrepancy?

I am of the opinion, based on my findings and real life observations that a map of the earth already exists so any posts about making a map are pointless.

The map i'm talking about is widely accepted by hundreds of millions of people as a map of the earth. It's rejected by a vast majority of the FE community because of things like:

-It has a north pole.
-It has a south pole.
-It has no ice wall.
-It has no dome.
-It has no firmament.

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2019, 06:19:14 PM »

The problem is that FE can't seem to put the continents/countries where everyone else on the planet knows where they are. I mean we have planetary transport of goods and humans on a daily basis that needs to know where such things are in order to get the job done. Yet there is still a discrepancy?

I am of the opinion, based on my findings and real life observations that a map of the earth already exists so any posts about making a map are pointless.

The map i'm talking about is widely accepted by hundreds of millions of people as a map of the earth. It's rejected by a vast majority of the FE community because of things like:

-It has a north pole.
-It has a south pole.
-It has no ice wall.
-It has no dome.
-It has no firmament.

Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2019, 06:40:02 PM »
Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.

1. That's not true. Tom has said many times that the map I prefer is not a globe projection.
2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?
3. I've presented that map and gotten feedback from the FE community and not one single person said that they have a problem with my preferred map because it is a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection.
4. It does not matter if people believe a globe projection, sphere projection, oblate spheroid projection, Cube projection, egg projection, flat disk projection, or any other projection. It depicts the earth as a flat 2d plane.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 07:00:29 PM by iamcpc »

Re: How to make a FE map, step one.
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2019, 07:17:05 PM »
Those are not the only problems with your preferred map from an FE perspective: Your preferred map is a globe projection meaning all distances and continental/country layout are based upon a spherical earth.

1. That's not true. Tom has said many times that the map I prefer is not a globe projection.
2. By that logic any map that is presented can be claimed to be a globe projection. Why even bother talking about a FE map?
3. I've presented that map and gotten feedback from the FE community and not one single person said that they have a problem with my preferred map because it is a globe, sphere, or oblate spheroid projection.
4. It does not matter if people believe a globe projection, sphere projection, oblate spheroid projection, Cube projection, egg projection, flat disk projection, or any other projection. It depicts the earth as a flat 2d plane.
But what do measured distances give us for the shape of the earth?  Which are used to produce maps.