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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #140 on: August 22, 2019, 05:03:41 PM »
1 Chronicles 16:30 - "Tremble before Him, all the earth. The world also is firmly established. It shall not be moved."

In order to understand what this verse is talking about, you have to read from the beginning of the chapter. It is a song of thanksgiving by King David of Israel. He is talking about how great the Lord is, ruler of all the earth. "Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all peoples."

David wants the Israelites to know that the Lord's strength is unwavering and all the world shall give glory to His name.

In the Bible, the word "world" is often used metonymically to mean "human race, mankind". If you read the entire chapter, it is clear that "world" is being used to mean "mankind" rather than a celestial body.

Imagine a song proclaiming that all the world rejoice in the name of the lord and hail His greatness for ever and ever, and ,oh btw, the planet earth doesn't move.... excuse me?!

Taking this verse to mean earth literally does not move is taking it out of context.


That really does not make sense. The human race is firmly established it shall not be moved?

Perhaps some of its meaning was lost in translation? In my mind the phrase is meant to add luster to the point King David is making - unwavering reign and power  in an un-wavering and firmly established humanity?

I see your point, but interpreting that phrase in this context to mean a celestial body that literally does not move does not make anymore sense than an unmoving humankind.

I have also read an interpretation that unmoving and fixed means that the earth is fixed in orbit, it's orientation relative to the other celestial bodies does not change.
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #141 on: August 22, 2019, 05:40:27 PM »
Perhaps some of its meaning was lost in translation? In my mind the phrase is meant to add luster to the point King David is making - unwavering reign and power  in an un-wavering and firmly established humanity?

I see your point, but interpreting that phrase in this context to mean a celestial body that literally does not move does not make anymore sense than an unmoving humankind.

I have also read an interpretation that unmoving and fixed means that the earth is fixed in orbit, it's orientation relative to the other celestial bodies does not change.

There are many ways to interpret the earth does not move and can't move. I had previously described a situation in which the earth does not move or can't move from this physical universe or this physical plane of existence which was one interpretation.

Another interpretation was that the earth does not move in relation to the plants and animals which inhabit it. 

Another interpretation was that the earth does not move outside of our solar system or does not move out of its orbit around the sun.

Another interpretation was that not moving was more symbolic that the earth will always be here. We won't wake up one morning and the earth is just gone.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #142 on: August 22, 2019, 08:04:19 PM »
But why should the bible be taken at face value? What makes the bible true? If you're going to use the bible as proof the earth is flat I can by all means use Harry Potter books as proof that wizards exist. The people who wrote the bible could have just been writing a 'way of life' and basing their stories on real events to help add some immersion and understanding. What makes the bible factually accurate?

So here we are now using some old book from people who weren't as scientifically advanced as we are now. People with less understanding and knowledge of the world. I would stop using the bible as proof of anything.

Dear Chris,

The Bible is the only book that is the prophetic Word from God himself. Many have asked the same question - Why rely on the Bible? I would recommend Ray Comfort's books as one way for you to understand why the Bible is true. Lee Strobel has also done extensive research in the finding the facts. The Bible was written by many educated people in the past and that includes kings like David & Solomon. Even doctors like Luke wrote the facts which coincides with the facts written by Matthew, Mark and John. Every prophesy written in the Bible has either happened or is happening. The fall of many cities like Jerusalem for example were already there. I wouldn't say that you should believe the Bible right now itself. Look into it but never neglect it. God bless you.
I don't wanna turn this thread into a bible discussion but I'll answer you. I've read a couple of different versions of the bible and I still think that a) it was probably written by man and b) it probably wasn't literal.

I've come to the first conclusion because there are different version of the bible within the same religion suggesting that it changes over time based on what 'feels right' by humans. There are plenty of bible verses religious people have ignored that talk about reasons for when you should rape or kill or cut peoples hands off or whatever else no one would want to do. You can change the bible but technically if it's still all written in the word of god then why change it? I came to the second conclusion because there are wacky verses and stories that simply sound like the imagination of men at the time. That's not to say I don't think anyone should pay attention to the words... There are some wise words in the bible and some people think it's written more as a way to live your life fully and successfully and that's fine, I don't judge people who are religious, to each their own. I could go into many more reasons why I don't think the bible is the word of a literal god but I'll leave it at this; IMO the bible is written by men, for men. Take it literally or take it metaphorically, I don't mind which but don't use it as a scientific text book when you can't verify half the stuff in there as fact or fiction.

Dear Chris,

I just want to say that I really understand your point. Different Bible versions tell different things and that makes people confused. But the Word is still intact, no matter what people say. They are not there for people to mess with. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."- Matthew 7:7

God bless you brother.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #143 on: August 22, 2019, 08:35:41 PM »
An important point to note about different versions of the Bible is they are more indicative of the way language changes, not the message. And to an extent the way different translators work. Different versions are useful because they often bring out different aspects of the message. But all translations are (or should be) translations of the same source material. It’s a myth that it’s translations of translations and the original message has been lost.

And, again, scientific discovery can change the way we understand certain parts of the Bible. Had I lived a few hundred years ago I’d probably be a young earth creationist. But we know better now, so I’m not. But that doesn’t mean I can’t recognise and believe the deeper truths Genesis is trying to teach me.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #144 on: August 23, 2019, 02:15:13 AM »
I am inclined to believe that when the bible talks about the world being established, and un-moving, it is talking (in some way) about the presence of the lord on the earth and the foundation that the lord provides to the world - it is established and it will not be moved. That is powerful.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 02:18:36 AM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #145 on: August 23, 2019, 06:59:45 AM »
Quote
when the bible talks about the world being established, and un-moving, it is talking (in some way) about the presence of the lord on the earth

And I am inclined to believe it is just talking about the way people perceived the world to be at the time. Nothing more. There is no question that the world certainly was established at the time the bible was written, and there is no question people would not have felt any direction motion relating to the Earth (other than the odd Earthquake of course) and so to them it would have seemed to be un-moving.

Nothing to do with the presence of the lord or anything such like.  That's just an interpretation that people today choose to have. 

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #146 on: August 23, 2019, 04:19:51 PM »
Dear Chris,

I just want to say that I really understand your point. Different Bible versions tell different things and that makes people confused. But the Word is still intact, no matter what people say. They are not there for people to mess with. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."- Matthew 7:7

God bless you brother.

I disagree with this. Even with this verse the wording changes dramatically between the different versions of the bible. The KJV does not even have the word "door" in it. Replacing the word "door" with the word "it" in the last sentence. Open door vs open it.  There are many instances of this where, on a verse level, i would not consider the verse intact. Hell for that matter I don't even know which of the 10 versions of the verse is the actual word of God.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #147 on: August 23, 2019, 04:39:45 PM »
There are many cases where meaning is lost simply because there is not a direct translation from one language to another.

Aa was mentioned previously, interpretation also varies dependent on the time period and culture that is doing the interpreting.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #148 on: August 25, 2019, 02:50:19 PM »
There's a sure way to find out the truth... Become an astronaut.

He's right. Surely the easiest way to get at the truth is to achieve something that historically less than 600 people have allegedly managed to do and go to space, I mean it's really that easy.
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2019, 10:21:24 PM »
There's a sure way to find out the truth... Become an astronaut.

He's right. Surely the easiest way to get at the truth is to achieve something that historically less than 600 people have allegedly managed to do and go to space, I mean it's really that easy.
that you find it hard to become an astronaut doesn’t mean it’s not a sure way to find out the truth though. Besides, if I were a flat earther I wouldn’t be using small numbers as an example for impossibility.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #150 on: August 26, 2019, 12:21:40 AM »
There's a sure way to find out the truth... Become an astronaut.

He's right. Surely the easiest way to get at the truth is to achieve something that historically less than 600 people have allegedly managed to do and go to space, I mean it's really that easy.
that you find it hard to become an astronaut doesn’t mean it’s not a sure way to find out the truth though. Besides, if I were a flat earther I wouldn’t be using small numbers as an example for impossibility.

If you did go into space and saw the truth, would anyone believe you?
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #151 on: August 26, 2019, 07:28:24 PM »
Would it matter if anyone believes you? From what I can tell from this site no one will believe human accounts or photos that say or show the earth is a spheroid and the only way they would believe it is to see it for themselves. Unless they become an astronaut it’s pointless trying to convince them otherwise.

If a trusted flat earther did get to go into space I get the feeling other flat earthers would claim that person was brainwashed, bought out or delusional somehow if they came back saying it was a spheroid.

I don’t think the vast majority of flat earthers trust any of the flat earthers from TFES which pretty much rules out everyone here.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #152 on: August 26, 2019, 08:45:46 PM »
Would it matter if anyone believes you? From what I can tell from this site no one will believe human accounts or photos that say or show the earth is a spheroid and the only way they would believe it is to see it for themselves. Unless they become an astronaut it’s pointless trying to convince them otherwise.

If a trusted flat earther did get to go into space I get the feeling other flat earthers would claim that person was brainwashed, bought out or delusional somehow if they came back saying it was a spheroid.

I don’t think the vast majority of flat earthers trust any of the flat earthers from TFES which pretty much rules out everyone here.

Of course it matters if anyone believes you.

If nobody is going to believe it, is there any point in making it your life's mission to fly into space to prove a point? Probably not.....
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #153 on: August 26, 2019, 08:59:01 PM »
Would it matter if anyone believes you? From what I can tell from this site no one will believe human accounts or photos that say or show the earth is a spheroid and the only way they would believe it is to see it for themselves. Unless they become an astronaut it’s pointless trying to convince them otherwise.

If a trusted flat earther did get to go into space I get the feeling other flat earthers would claim that person was brainwashed, bought out or delusional somehow if they came back saying it was a spheroid.

I don’t think the vast majority of flat earthers trust any of the flat earthers from TFES which pretty much rules out everyone here.

Of course it matters if anyone believes you.

If nobody is going to believe it, is there any point in making it your life's mission to fly into space to prove a point? Probably not.....
Well if anyone did believe someone who went to space then we wouldn’t be having this discussion I guess. Don’t get me wrong, I believe astronauts went to space and I believe there are people on the ISS. I really have no reason not to believe it. Not a singe soul who’s been to space has come back saying the earth is flat though. Flat earthers seem to not believe this by default. I wonder if any single astronaut ever came out and said they saw a flat earth, would all the flat earthers suddenly believe them after screaming liars, fakes, “astronots” etc... I don’t think any flat earther will be able to come out saying they believe astronauts are telling the truth. So the only way IMO flat earthers will change their minds is if they go to space. Even then I’d bet some would still deny being wrong all this time out of sheer embarrassment.

Can any flat earther here honestly say if they went to space and found the earth to be a spheroid shape that they’d admit being wrong all this time about everything they believe regarding the shape of the earth and the government or anything else to do with this conspiracy? Or would they go quiet? Would they come out and say they were wrong and risk being called a liar as well?
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #154 on: August 27, 2019, 11:25:28 AM »
Dear Chris,

I just want to say that I really understand your point. Different Bible versions tell different things and that makes people confused. But the Word is still intact, no matter what people say. They are not there for people to mess with. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."- Matthew 7:7

God bless you brother.

I disagree with this. Even with this verse the wording changes dramatically between the different versions of the bible. The KJV does not even have the word "door" in it. Replacing the word "door" with the word "it" in the last sentence. Open door vs open it.  There are many instances of this where, on a verse level, i would not consider the verse intact. Hell for that matter I don't even know which of the 10 versions of the verse is the actual word of God.

Dear iamcpc,

I really meant to say Chris that if you asked God for the truth, he would reveal it to you. Now since you have mentioned the issue with interpretation, doesn't it make sense when you see the similarity in those verses? Be it "door" or "it", what does it ultimately mean? It means that once a person asks for something, it will be given to him; if you seek, you will find it and if you knock, you will see a path. What do you knock on? A door, right? Ultimately it all means the same dear friend.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #155 on: August 28, 2019, 10:37:17 PM »
Dear iamcpc,

I really meant to say Chris that if you asked God for the truth, he would reveal it to you. Now since you have mentioned the issue with interpretation, doesn't it make sense when you see the similarity in those verses? Be it "door" or "it", what does it ultimately mean? It means that once a person asks for something, it will be given to him; if you seek, you will find it and if you knock, you will see a path. What do you knock on? A door, right? Ultimately it all means the same dear friend.

Well there have been many situations where I went to a bible study group and we disagreed on the verse or the accuracy of the different translations. We would all sit down and pray for God to show us the truth between all these different personal interpretations and translations and, after praying, still had our differences.

There are many situations where people are googling ancient Hebrew and arguing semantics because that is the "truth" that God has revealed to them. Why would God reveal many different "truths" among a bible study group?

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #156 on: August 29, 2019, 04:19:34 PM »

Well there have been many situations where I went to a bible study group and we disagreed on the verse or the accuracy of the different translations. We would all sit down and pray for God to show us the truth between all these different personal interpretations and translations and, after praying, still had our differences.


What does that tell you?  Maybe a magic 8 ball would have worked better?

If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #157 on: August 29, 2019, 11:59:05 PM »
What does that tell you?  Maybe a magic 8 ball would have worked better?

This is the reason why I never really supported the biblical FE models. If God is this all powerful force could you really understand how he set up the universe to work and function down to an atomic level by reading a 2000 year old book? If you think the answer is yes then that is like spitting in the face of God.

I always felt the bible was more about how to save your soul instead of how the universe works.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #158 on: August 30, 2019, 03:33:40 PM »
What does that tell you?  Maybe a magic 8 ball would have worked better?

This is the reason why I never really supported the biblical FE models. If God is this all powerful force could you really understand how he set up the universe to work and function down to an atomic level by reading a 2000 year old book? If you think the answer is yes then that is like spitting in the face of God.

I always felt the bible was more about how to save your soul instead of how the universe works.

The Bible (and most other religious text) is all about primitive men trying to explain phenomenon that they didn't understand and using even older stories to do it.   People that take the bible literally are as ignorant of science as the authors were.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #159 on: August 30, 2019, 05:19:29 PM »
Flat Earth belief tied to Christianity is an extremely recent thing, relatively speaking. The Catholic Church, which represented the massive bulk of the religion for a millennium and a half, has always maintained that the Earth is spherical. I don't think the Bible was used as justification that the Earth is flat until the 19th century, and that only by a small number of extreme fundamentalist sects.

It is, of course, a myth that it was the prevailing belief that the Earth was flat until Columbus discovered America.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.