dirtysnowball

Why should the Earth be flat?
« on: June 30, 2019, 10:03:21 PM »
We see a spherical Sun, we see a spherical Moon and when I look at the planets through my telescope I see them as spherical too.  In fact nothing else in the Universe, regardless of which direction we look is actually flat. Apart from the rings of Saturn and they are not flat in reality.

So if I can ask a simple question then, why should the Earth be flat, who was the first person to suggest it is and why?

Surely some one on the flat Earth side can answer this?  You say you believe the Earth is flat but you don't say why?  I realise that the FE Wiki page states things like the Earth looking flat etc etc but that is neither evidence or proof.  So why should the Earth be flat?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 09:26:21 PM by dirtysnowball »

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2019, 07:53:47 PM »
We see a spherical Sun, we see a spherical Moon and when I look at the planets through my telescope I see them as spherical too.  In fact nothing else in the Universe, regardless of which direction we look is actually flat. Apart from the rings of Saturn and they are not flat in reality.

So if I can ask a simple question then, why should the Earth be flat, who was the first person to suggest it is and why?

Surely some one on the flat Earth side can answer this?  You say you believe the Earth is flat but you don't say why?  I realise that the FE Wiki page states things like the Earth looking flat etc etc but that is neither evidence or proof.  So why should the Earth be flat?

Many galaxies are flat.
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Offline kopfverderber

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2019, 07:19:18 AM »
If you are asking for FET evidence that the earth is flat, a good place to start would be the wiki in this site.

If you are asking what motives bring people to believe that the earth is flat despite overwhelming evidence against it, I could think of at least two:
- Religious convictions. Some passages of the Bible seem to suggest that the earth is flat or fixed to a position.
- Appeal of conspiracy theories. That would be the psychological explanation.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 07:22:20 AM by kopfverderber »
"What giants?" said Sancho Panza.

"Those thou seest there," answered his master, "with the long arms, and some have them nearly two leagues long."

"Look, your worship," said Sancho; "what we see there are not giants but windmills, and what seem to be their arms are the sails that turned by the wind make the millstone go."

dirtysnowball

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2019, 09:03:35 AM »
Galaxies are made up of billions of stars which gravity has sculpted into flattened disk shapes. These shapes can easily be accounted for through computer models using scientific data. Galaxies of course are not solid and there are several light years between the stellar members of a galaxy, all of which are individually spherical.

The rings of Saturn (along with the other three gas giant planets) are also flat but again not solid. Instead they are made up of debris, the particles of which has been arranged into a flat disc around the planet. Again through gravity. Accretion discs form around many stars, made up of the left over material that formed the star in the first place. Again flat yes but not solid. Such an accretion disc formed around the Sun in its early formation stages and that is why we have a solar system where all the major planet members orbit the Sun in very nearly the same plane. Science can account for all of these and we can observe all stages of solar system formation by looking out into the Universe with telescopes. What we see supports our theories.

Talking of the gas giants again for a second. The rotation of the planets causes a slight flattening (or squashing) effect around the axis of rotation. This effect increases as the rotation speed increases and not surprisingly then is greatest in the case of Jupiter which is also the fastest rotating planet. So this polar flattening effect as it is called increases with the rotation speed. So it stands to reason that if a planet were to rotate fast enough then it would indeed be transformed from a sphere into a very rapidly rotating disc.  However the rotation speed of the Earth (just over 1000mph or once in 24hrs (= just 24,880 miles equatorial circumference) is not nearly fast enough to make the Earth flat.

However no where else in the Universe have we yet found a solid body which is flat. So that is the basis for my question of why should the Earth be flat? We see it from a unique perspective compared to anything else in the Universe because we live on it!   That alone makes it look flat from our position at surface level. The reasons for that have been repeated several times already so there is no reason to again repeat those reasons here. Only since we have had the capability to travel into space have we been able to see at first hand the Earth in its true form. But of course those people who have become avid 'flat Earth believers' and now don't want to believe anything other, they simply dismiss space travel and all the photos and videos taken from space as being deliberately fabricated.  Fair enough.. whatever makes you happy.

On account of religious convictions - well I don't think anything in the bible is intended to represent a literal representation of reality and no Christians or members of any other faiths would suggest otherwise. In the past of course religion and science were both attempts, from different perspectives to explain the nature of the Universe. Both have developed over time to represent different roles in society and both now (unlike in the past) have a mutual respect and acceptance for each other.  There are many key religious figures in the world now who maintain a complete support of modern science and accept its findings. Including of course that the Earth is a sphere.

As for the appeal of conspiracy theories - well as far as I am concerned the less said about those the better.  Conspiracy theories have no proof. Otherwise they would cease to be theories.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 09:23:37 AM by dirtysnowball »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2019, 01:47:47 PM »
The Earth is different from those other bodies. It's much, much larger, for example.
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dirtysnowball

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2019, 02:58:26 PM »
Quote
The Earth is different from those other bodies. It's much, much larger, for example.

Not entirely sure what your point is here.  Care to elaborate a bit more?

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2019, 06:07:51 AM »
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The Earth is different from those other bodies. It's much, much larger, for example.

Not entirely sure what your point is here.  Care to elaborate a bit more?

We should not expect that the Earth's great size compared to the observable heavenly bodies would not have some kind of effect on how it came into its shape.

RE Theory has a similarity in the way smaller objects like asteroids tend to be irregular, and the larger an object gets the more likely it is to form spherically, until you reach very large scales like galaxies, which tend to be flat; in RE Theory if you scale it out to universe size, shape can only really be accurately comprehended in four dimensions!

All that we suggest, by contrast, is that very large objects like the Earth tend to be flat, while smaller objects like the sun and planets tend to be spherical.
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dirtysnowball

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2019, 08:05:56 AM »
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very large objects like the Earth tend to be flat, while smaller objects like the sun and planets tend to be spherical

Does this mean that you think the Sun is smaller than the Earth then?  If so wrong my friend, seriously wrong! You could fit around 1 million Earths inside the Sun.

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We should not expect that the Earth's great size compared to the observable heavenly bodies

The Earth looks big to us because compared to us it is and we live on it. I'm not going to go into why the Sun and Moon look the same size on the sky (1/2 degree) even though they are not physically the same size as it is well known why that is.  The Earth is neither the smallest nor the largest planet of course.  It is kind of just about midway.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 11:54:59 AM by dirtysnowball »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2019, 02:47:16 PM »
Quote
very large objects like the Earth tend to be flat, while smaller objects like the sun and planets tend to be spherical

Does this mean that you think the Sun is smaller than the Earth then?  If so wrong my friend, seriously wrong! You could fit around 1 million Earths inside the Sun.

Quote
We should not expect that the Earth's great size compared to the observable heavenly bodies

The Earth looks big to us because compared to us it is and we live on it. I'm not going to go into why the Sun and Moon look the same size on the sky (1/2 degree) even though they are not physically the same size as it is well known why that is.  The Earth is neither the smallest nor the largest planet of course.  It is kind of just about midway.

You should really actually acquaint yourself with Flat Earth Theory before trying to argue against it. I recommend reading the cosmology sections of the wiki and then maybe come back if you have any further questions.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

dirtysnowball

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2019, 03:27:37 PM »
I have done many time thanks and found numerous points in it which are a little dubious to say the least. In fact the cosmology section is probably the part of FE Wiki where I have found the most holes if I'm honest. Any particular points that you have in mind?

I'm not sure where this stuff comes from.  But it certainly makes for interesting.. no that's the wrong word, entertaining reading.  The sections of the Moon and lunar phases for example.  Really? 

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2019, 03:46:56 PM »
You may also want to have a read through the forum rules. If you don't have anything to say that contributes to the discussion, consider simply not saying anything. Warned.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline junker

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2019, 05:03:00 PM »
I have done many time thanks and found numerous points in it which are a little dubious to say the least. In fact the cosmology section is probably the part of FE Wiki where I have found the most holes if I'm honest. Any particular points that you have in mind?

I'm not sure where this stuff comes from.  But it certainly makes for interesting.. no that's the wrong word, entertaining reading.  The sections of the Moon and lunar phases for example.  Really?

I'd suggest you argue thos points you disagree with, then. Saying you won't explain why the sun and moon look the same size in the sky is pointless. The FE folks here have a good understanding of RE mechanics. They already know that in the RE model the sun has 400 times the diameter and is 400 times farther away, which is why they appear to be the same size.

Saying that it's "dubios" is a hollow, lazy statement. Address the points and make your arguments. Otherwise you'll end up warned again.
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dirtysnowball

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2019, 06:34:52 PM »
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Saying you won't explain why the sun and moon look the same size in the sky is pointless

I don't need to as you have already done that for me through what you have said.  If you don't believe that then perhaps you could offer an alternative explanation. Also to my original question which was why should the Earth be flat when no other solid object in the Universe (planet or otherwise) appears to be so.

To address one of my 'dubious' points about FW Wiki, consider the following. The diagram in FE wiki showing how the Moons phases 'work' in FET is wrong because the during the course of a year the inclination of the Moons orbit w.r.t the Sun means that the New moon lies both above and below the Sun. The FE Wiki diagram does not clearly illustrate this and that is why I have described it as 'dubious'.  The diagram as it is shown does not account it appears to me for how the same Moon phase is seen from all over the world over a 24 hour period.

On the flip side of the coin, the Moon position relative to the Sun table below the diagram I completely agree with.  I don't disagree with everything in FE Wiki just for the sake of it. On the points that I do disagree with I not only point this out but I also explain why I disagree with it. If it comes down to misinterpretation on my part then please advise and I will stand corrected.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 06:37:18 PM by dirtysnowball »

Offline Zonk

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2019, 09:58:39 PM »
Hmm.  My first response was deleted.  let's see if this one sticks.

RE Theory has a similarity in the way smaller objects like asteroids tend to be irregular, and the larger an object gets the more likely it is to form spherically, until you reach very large scales like galaxies, which tend to be flat;

2 problems with this theory.  1, galaxies are not solid objects, but collections of billions of individual stars.  There has never been a solid, celestial sized object observed to be anything other than (roughly) a sphere.  2, some galaxies are relatively flat because the billions of starts are rotating around the common center of mass.  I have not ready anything in FE theory suggesting the earth is spinning fast enough to flatten out into a disc.

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2019, 01:06:18 AM »
Hmm.  My first response was deleted.  let's see if this one sticks.

RE Theory has a similarity in the way smaller objects like asteroids tend to be irregular, and the larger an object gets the more likely it is to form spherically, until you reach very large scales like galaxies, which tend to be flat;

2 problems with this theory.  1, galaxies are not solid objects, but collections of billions of individual stars.  There has never been a solid, celestial sized object observed to be anything other than (roughly) a sphere.

Yes there has. The Earth. And clearly nothing else in the observable universe even compares.

Quote
2, some galaxies are relatively flat because the billions of starts are rotating around the common center of mass.  I have not ready anything in FE theory suggesting the earth is spinning fast enough to flatten out into a disc.

It's not spinning at all. I wasn't saying they formed in the same way. How the Earth or a galaxy comes to be flat is irrelevant, the point is simply that there's an analogy to RET of not everything in the universe being spherical. Based on the evidence we have to assume that in FET the default shape for very large objects is flat, at least until we come across another object in the universe that contradicts that assumption.
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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2019, 01:17:06 AM »
Hmm.  My first response was deleted.  let's see if this one sticks.

RE Theory has a similarity in the way smaller objects like asteroids tend to be irregular, and the larger an object gets the more likely it is to form spherically, until you reach very large scales like galaxies, which tend to be flat;

2 problems with this theory.  1, galaxies are not solid objects, but collections of billions of individual stars.  There has never been a solid, celestial sized object observed to be anything other than (roughly) a sphere.

Yes there has. The Earth. And clearly nothing else in the observable universe even compares.

Quote
2, some galaxies are relatively flat because the billions of starts are rotating around the common center of mass.  I have not ready anything in FE theory suggesting the earth is spinning fast enough to flatten out into a disc.

It's not spinning at all. I wasn't saying they formed in the same way. How the Earth or a galaxy comes to be flat is irrelevant, the point is simply that there's an analogy to RET of not everything in the universe being spherical.

So, the earth is the size of a galaxy?  Exactly how big do you suppose galaxies are?  And as a corollary to that question, how do you arrive  at that figure, given that observational data suggesting that stars are many, many orders of magnitude larger than the observable size of the earth is apparently dismissed?


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Based on the evidence we have to assume that in FET the default shape for very large objects is flat, at least until we come across another object in the universe that contradicts that assumption.

About 1/4 of the observable galaxies are spherical or elliptical (egg shaped).  So there's your contradiction. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 01:37:51 AM by Zonk »

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2019, 08:58:38 AM »
We see a spherical Sun, we see a spherical Moon and when I look at the planets through my telescope I see them as spherical too.  In fact nothing else in the Universe, regardless of which direction we look is actually flat. Apart from the rings of Saturn and they are not flat in reality.

So if I can ask a simple question then, why should the Earth be flat, who was the first person to suggest it is and why?

Surely some one on the flat Earth side can answer this?  You say you believe the Earth is flat but you don't say why?  I realise that the FE Wiki page states things like the Earth looking flat etc etc but that is neither evidence or proof.  So why should the Earth be flat?

In new documentary Behind The Curve, filmmaker Daniel J Clark gets to know the people who believe the earth is flat. ‘There are continents outside of our Antarctica that are full of the elites and the rich and the powerful, and the government wants to keep that a secret.’
 
We’ve known since around the 3rd century BC that the planet on which we live is a sphere. But for just as long, and despite an abundance of photos of the globe seen from space, one baffling theory has refused to admit defeat: the idea that the Earth is flat.
If you don't believe the earth is flat,maybe you should see this article and share your ideas:  https://docsbay.net/flat-earth-inside-the-world-s-biggest-conspiracy-theory


newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2019, 05:06:03 PM »
Quote
It's not spinning at all. I wasn't saying they formed in the same way. How the Earth or a galaxy comes to be flat is irrelevant

What is spinning then if it isn't the Earth and what is the source and cause of that spin?

Also why do certain aspects of Flat Earth theory such as how the Earth formed become 'irrelevant' just because you haven't got an explanation for it? Does everything become irrelevant if it cannot be explained? I would have thought the question of how the Earth formed would be of interest to us regardless of whether the Earth is flat or not.  Especially given than no other solid, flat bodies have been observed elsewhere in the Universe up to now. I for one would be particularly interested to learn about the Earth formed uniquely in the Universe as a flat body as well as when.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 05:08:40 PM by newhorizons »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2019, 06:38:49 PM »
We see a spherical Sun, we see a spherical Moon and when I look at the planets through my telescope I see them as spherical too.  In fact nothing else in the Universe, regardless of which direction we look is actually flat. Apart from the rings of Saturn and they are not flat in reality.

So if I can ask a simple question then, why should the Earth be flat, who was the first person to suggest it is and why?

Surely some one on the flat Earth side can answer this?  You say you believe the Earth is flat but you don't say why?  I realise that the FE Wiki page states things like the Earth looking flat etc etc but that is neither evidence or proof.  So why should the Earth be flat?

In new documentary Behind The Curve, filmmaker Daniel J Clark gets to know the people who believe the earth is flat. ‘There are continents outside of our Antarctica that are full of the elites and the rich and the powerful, and the government wants to keep that a secret.’
 
We’ve known since around the 3rd century BC that the planet on which we live is a sphere. But for just as long, and despite an abundance of photos of the globe seen from space, one baffling theory has refused to admit defeat: the idea that the Earth is flat.
If you don't believe the earth is flat,maybe you should see this article and share your ideas:  https://docsbay.net/flat-earth-inside-the-world-s-biggest-conspiracy-theory

I'm confused.... first off, you just quoted the first few lines of the document verbatim without siting it as a quote, then you ask us to read the article that you just plagiarized stating "If you don't believe the earth is flat, <do this>", implying the article will convince someone the earth is flat when in reality if you read the article, the documentary was designed to steer people away from the idea the earth is flat.... I'm lost... what is your position here?
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2019, 12:53:20 AM »
Hmm.  My first response was deleted.  let's see if this one sticks.

RE Theory has a similarity in the way smaller objects like asteroids tend to be irregular, and the larger an object gets the more likely it is to form spherically, until you reach very large scales like galaxies, which tend to be flat;

2 problems with this theory.  1, galaxies are not solid objects, but collections of billions of individual stars.  There has never been a solid, celestial sized object observed to be anything other than (roughly) a sphere.

Yes there has. The Earth. And clearly nothing else in the observable universe even compares.

Quote
2, some galaxies are relatively flat because the billions of starts are rotating around the common center of mass.  I have not ready anything in FE theory suggesting the earth is spinning fast enough to flatten out into a disc.

It's not spinning at all. I wasn't saying they formed in the same way. How the Earth or a galaxy comes to be flat is irrelevant, the point is simply that there's an analogy to RET of not everything in the universe being spherical.

So, the earth is the size of a galaxy?  Exactly how big do you suppose galaxies are?  And as a corollary to that question, how do you arrive  at that figure, given that observational data suggesting that stars are many, many orders of magnitude larger than the observable size of the earth is apparently dismissed?


Quote
Based on the evidence we have to assume that in FET the default shape for very large objects is flat, at least until we come across another object in the universe that contradicts that assumption.

About 1/4 of the observable galaxies are spherical or elliptical (egg shaped).  So there's your contradiction.

No, you misunderstand. The Earth is much, much larger than any galaxy. Even the Milky Way is basically just a collection of motes. The Earth is the only reference we have for what shape objects might form when they are the size of the Earth, which is why we have to assume that the default shape for very large objects is flat.
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