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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #100 on: August 19, 2019, 07:05:54 PM »
Here is a site that discusses how the bible "seems to suggest the earth is flat", and why it actually does not suggest it to be flat.

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2019, 08:42:47 PM »
But why should the bible be taken at face value? What makes the bible true? If you're going to use the bible as proof the earth is flat I can by all means use Harry Potter books as proof that wizards exist. The people who wrote the bible could have just been writing a 'way of life' and basing their stories on real events to help add some immersion and understanding. What makes the bible factually accurate?

So here we are now using some old book from people who weren't as scientifically advanced as we are now. People with less understanding and knowledge of the world. I would stop using the bible as proof of anything.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #102 on: August 19, 2019, 08:47:36 PM »
Quote
What if a person is born and, when his brain creates images out of "refracted" light beams they don't appear out of place our out of position at all. That person has a much more significantly advanced visual cortex than your average human

I should imagine there has been more than one person born up to now where there is an abnormality in the communication between eye and brain which gives them a different interpretation of what we call normal vision. At least I think that's what you are getting at.  Without the brain our vision would be upside down because the single bi-convex lens in the human eye inverts the image.  Evolution has led to that image being turned the 'right way up'. So it is only because the vast majority of people see 'up' and 'down' in the same way that we have come to call that 'normal'.

As you may be aware our perception of what is 'upside down' or not is based on our normal everyday experience.  As soon as you lose the horizon from you field of view (as you do when you peer through an astronomical telescope) then your awareness of direction vanishes.  An astronomical telescope naturally produces an inverted image but that doesn't matter because there is no 'upside down' in space. An image of Saturn for example looks identical regardless of whether north is at the top or south is at the top.

Regarding the bible... I repeat what I said before. A long time Christian was quite open in telling me that the bible should be regarded as a text of spiritual guidance to be taken with a broad context rather than a description of life to be taken literally.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 08:50:31 PM by newhorizons »

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #103 on: August 19, 2019, 09:30:35 PM »
Here is a site that discusses how the bible "seems to suggest the earth is flat", and why it actually does not suggest it to be flat.

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/


Those verses are ones that can be discussed against and those, i believe, are valid counterpoints.


The main biblical verses which most strongly support the FE model are the dozen or so verses about the movement of the earth.


If the earth is not moving then it's not rotating on it's axis and it's not orbiting the sun.




https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79554.0



Psalm 93:1 NASB

The Lord reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The Lord has clothed and girded Himself with strength;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.

Psalm 96:10 NASB

Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved;
He will judge the peoples with equity.”

1 Chronicles 16:30 NASB

Tremble before Him, all the earth;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved

Psalm 104:5 NASB

He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.




Josh 10:13
The sun stood still and the moon stood motionless while the nation took vengeance on its enemies. The event is recorded in the Scroll of the Upright One. The sun stood motionless in the middle of the sky and did not set for about a full day.

If the earth was spinning then it would have had to come to a crashing halt both in it's orbit around the sun and in its rotation on its axis for this to happen which violates the law of inertia.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 09:37:27 PM by iamcpc »

newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #104 on: August 19, 2019, 09:36:35 PM »
To those around during biblical times the Earth would have appeared to be stationary just as it does to us today. So for them it was an entirely reasonable conclusion.  We now know that it isn't stationary.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2019, 09:52:31 PM »
To those around during biblical times the Earth would have appeared to be stationary just as it does to us today. So for them it was an entirely reasonable conclusion.  We now know that it isn't stationary.


The Bible is not the word of man it's the word of God.
If God says the Earth is stationary or does not move than that's the way it is and the earth must be flat because all the RE models are based on a large amount of motion.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 09:54:27 PM by iamcpc »

newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #106 on: August 19, 2019, 09:54:46 PM »
Whatever... but what whether word of man or word of God, what has that got to do with whether the Earth appeared to be stationary or not?

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2019, 10:00:46 PM »
Whatever... but what whether word of man or word of God, what has that got to do with whether the Earth appeared to be stationary or not?

According to the Bible, per the verses listed above, it could be argued that Earth IS stationary. If the earth is stationary that provides a lot of support to the models of the universe in which the earth is stationary.

How things appear mean nothing when you have the holy word of God to guide you.

newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2019, 10:21:18 PM »
It could equally be argued that the Earth is not stationary based on modern observations.  Back in the days that the bible relates to the resources available to determine the nature of the Universe and whether the Earth is stationary and the centre of it all were far more limited.  To what could be directly observed in fact.

Clearly the bible is important and significant to you. I assume you are a religious person and that being the case I respect that.  I just see these things differently to you.

Quote
If the earth is stationary that provides a lot of support to the models of the universe in which the earth is stationary.

And of course it follows from that, if the Earth is not stationary that provides a lot of support to models of the Universe in which the Earth is not stationary.  I would personally say there is more evidence to suggest the latter is true compared to the former.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 10:33:34 PM by newhorizons »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #109 on: August 20, 2019, 01:21:39 AM »
The bible is also difficult to take literally, and depending on the translation, can be interpreted in multiple ways. I find in hard to take those scriptures literally.

"The world is firmly established, it will not be moved."

Is that the roman army bragging about its everlasting reign and power? Another empire maybe? I'm not a historian, but the odds are pretty good that the interpretation of an un-moving world being a flat earth is pretty low considering the ("world of pure imagination" - willy wonka.) alternatives.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #110 on: August 20, 2019, 05:45:37 AM »
But why should the bible be taken at face value? What makes the bible true? If you're going to use the bible as proof the earth is flat I can by all means use Harry Potter books as proof that wizards exist. The people who wrote the bible could have just been writing a 'way of life' and basing their stories on real events to help add some immersion and understanding. What makes the bible factually accurate?

So here we are now using some old book from people who weren't as scientifically advanced as we are now. People with less understanding and knowledge of the world. I would stop using the bible as proof of anything.

Dear Chris,

The Bible is the only book that is the prophetic Word from God himself. Many have asked the same question - Why rely on the Bible? I would recommend Ray Comfort's books as one way for you to understand why the Bible is true. Lee Strobel has also done extensive research in the finding the facts. The Bible was written by many educated people in the past and that includes kings like David & Solomon. Even doctors like Luke wrote the facts which coincides with the facts written by Matthew, Mark and John. Every prophesy written in the Bible has either happened or is happening. The fall of many cities like Jerusalem for example were already there. I wouldn't say that you should believe the Bible right now itself. Look into it but never neglect it. God bless you.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #111 on: August 20, 2019, 09:59:12 AM »
The Bible can be true and inspired but that doesn't make it a science book. I never understand why people insist that certain verses of Scripture must be taken scientifically literally.
Is early Genesis trying to teach us the age of the universe, how long creation took or the exact order of events? Is that really the important message it's trying to teach us?
To me it's teaching deeper truths - it teaches us that we are a creation, created by God. It teaches us that we are set apart from the rest of creation and it tells us about the consequences of our rebellion from God and our need for salvation.

The pope even apologised to Galileo and admitted he was right. Scientific discovery doesn't disprove the Bible but it may change how we understand certain verses. The Bible isn't intended to be a science book, it tells us itself what it's for:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

"The Bible tells us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go" - Galileo.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #112 on: August 20, 2019, 10:01:57 AM »
But why should the bible be taken at face value? What makes the bible true? If you're going to use the bible as proof the earth is flat I can by all means use Harry Potter books as proof that wizards exist. The people who wrote the bible could have just been writing a 'way of life' and basing their stories on real events to help add some immersion and understanding. What makes the bible factually accurate?

So here we are now using some old book from people who weren't as scientifically advanced as we are now. People with less understanding and knowledge of the world. I would stop using the bible as proof of anything.

Dear Chris,

The Bible is the only book that is the prophetic Word from God himself. Many have asked the same question - Why rely on the Bible? I would recommend Ray Comfort's books as one way for you to understand why the Bible is true. Lee Strobel has also done extensive research in the finding the facts. The Bible was written by many educated people in the past and that includes kings like David & Solomon. Even doctors like Luke wrote the facts which coincides with the facts written by Matthew, Mark and John. Every prophesy written in the Bible has either happened or is happening. The fall of many cities like Jerusalem for example were already there. I wouldn't say that you should believe the Bible right now itself. Look into it but never neglect it. God bless you.
I don't wanna turn this thread into a bible discussion but I'll answer you. I've read a couple of different versions of the bible and I still think that a) it was probably written by man and b) it probably wasn't literal.

I've come to the first conclusion because there are different version of the bible within the same religion suggesting that it changes over time based on what 'feels right' by humans. There are plenty of bible verses religious people have ignored that talk about reasons for when you should rape or kill or cut peoples hands off or whatever else no one would want to do. You can change the bible but technically if it's still all written in the word of god then why change it? I came to the second conclusion because there are wacky verses and stories that simply sound like the imagination of men at the time. That's not to say I don't think anyone should pay attention to the words... There are some wise words in the bible and some people think it's written more as a way to live your life fully and successfully and that's fine, I don't judge people who are religious, to each their own. I could go into many more reasons why I don't think the bible is the word of a literal god but I'll leave it at this; IMO the bible is written by men, for men. Take it literally or take it metaphorically, I don't mind which but don't use it as a scientific text book when you can't verify half the stuff in there as fact or fiction.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #113 on: August 20, 2019, 10:43:42 AM »
If you are asking for FET evidence that the earth is flat, a good place to start would be the wiki in this site.

If you are asking what motives bring people to believe that the earth is flat despite overwhelming evidence against it, I could think of at least two:
- Religious convictions. Some passages of the Bible seem to suggest that the earth is flat or fixed to a position.
- Appeal of conspiracy theories. That would be the psychological explanation.


Kindly quote the verse or the chapter where the Earth is mentioned to be flat in the Bible. Nowhere has it mentioned that the Earth is flat.
He has not written the Bible mentioned the Earth is flat.

He wrote the Bible seemed to "suggest," the Earth is flat.

Well, where does the bible seem to suggest the earth is flat?

My point exactly.
Unless a sphere has corners, I present the following:

Isaiah 11:12
And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #114 on: August 20, 2019, 11:31:05 AM »
Your four corners:

North, south, east, west
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #115 on: August 20, 2019, 12:07:03 PM »
Here is a site that discusses how the bible "seems to suggest the earth is flat", and why it actually does not suggest it to be flat.

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/
Your four corners:

North, south, east, west
On your provided site the word "suggest," or its derivatives appears five times.

First, "Nearly everyone understands that a sphere does not have an edge. Indeed, we can travel indefinitely around a sphere and never reach a boundary or edge. On the other hand, if the earth is flat, it must have an edge somewhere, unless the earth is an infinite plane. However, few people today suggest the latter, and no one in the ancient world did. Bible skeptics are fond of pointing out that the phrase “four corners of the earth” appears three times in the Bible. Surely, the skeptics claim, this must refer to a flat, square earth—thus proving that the Bible teaches a flat earth."

Second, "The many instances of anthropomorphisms in the Bible, suggesting such things as God having hands (Psalm 8:3; Isaiah 66:2) or eyes (Proverbs 15:2) clearly are not literal. There also is an inconsistency in the flat-earth argument here. Flat-earthers believe that the firmament is a transparent dome over the earth, and hence is curved. On the other hand, no body of water is curved, but rather all seas have flat surfaces. But John described a sea of glass, which, by every other use, must be flat, so why is this one curved?"

Third, "Flat-earthers who pursue this distinction suggest that the phrase “in the firmament of heaven” of Genesis 1:17 (and possibly Genesis 1:14–15 as well) ought to be understood as “inside the firmament of heaven.”

Fourth, "Presumably, this was while still in the wilderness. Next, the devil took Jesus to the pinnacle of the Temple in Jerusalem and suggested that Jesus cast himself down (Matthew 4:5). Note that there was considerable distance between the wilderness and the Temple (at least 50 miles)."

Fifth, " For instance, the phrase “ends of the earth” appears 28 times in the King James Version, and, if taken literally, suggest that the earth has an edge, which would rule out a spherical earth."

In the only instance your article figuratively "leaves the Bible to its own devices," so to speak, your article clearly states the Bible does indeed suggest the earth is flat, as a sphere does not possess four corners and does not have an end.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 12:13:39 PM by totallackey »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #116 on: August 20, 2019, 12:58:25 PM »
Here is a site that discusses how the bible "seems to suggest the earth is flat", and why it actually does not suggest it to be flat.

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/
Your four corners:

North, south, east, west
On your provided site the word "suggest," or its derivatives appears five times.

First, "Nearly everyone understands that a sphere does not have an edge. Indeed, we can travel indefinitely around a sphere and never reach a boundary or edge. On the other hand, if the earth is flat, it must have an edge somewhere, unless the earth is an infinite plane. However, few people today suggest the latter, and no one in the ancient world did. Bible skeptics are fond of pointing out that the phrase “four corners of the earth” appears three times in the Bible. Surely, the skeptics claim, this must refer to a flat, square earth—thus proving that the Bible teaches a flat earth."

Second, "The many instances of anthropomorphisms in the Bible, suggesting such things as God having hands (Psalm 8:3; Isaiah 66:2) or eyes (Proverbs 15:2) clearly are not literal. There also is an inconsistency in the flat-earth argument here. Flat-earthers believe that the firmament is a transparent dome over the earth, and hence is curved. On the other hand, no body of water is curved, but rather all seas have flat surfaces. But John described a sea of glass, which, by every other use, must be flat, so why is this one curved?"

Third, "Flat-earthers who pursue this distinction suggest that the phrase “in the firmament of heaven” of Genesis 1:17 (and possibly Genesis 1:14–15 as well) ought to be understood as “inside the firmament of heaven.”

Fourth, "Presumably, this was while still in the wilderness. Next, the devil took Jesus to the pinnacle of the Temple in Jerusalem and suggested that Jesus cast himself down (Matthew 4:5). Note that there was considerable distance between the wilderness and the Temple (at least 50 miles)."

Fifth, " For instance, the phrase “ends of the earth” appears 28 times in the King James Version, and, if taken literally, suggest that the earth has an edge, which would rule out a spherical earth."

In the only instance your article figuratively "leaves the Bible to its own devices," so to speak, your article clearly states the Bible does indeed suggest the earth is flat, as a sphere does not possess four corners and does not have an end.

You've heard of figurative speech, right?

You are taking those phrases literally. Do you really believe the earth is a square? Even FET does not suggest it to be square. Do you really believe the sun and moon stopped in the sky? Even if it literally stopped in the sky, how is this evidence of a flat earth? It seems like a stretch to interpret those scriptures to be anything other than metaphors.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #117 on: August 20, 2019, 01:05:17 PM »
You've heard of figurative speech, right?
I have.
You are taking those phrases literally.
I'm not.

I am merely pointing out the Bible, as your own source points out, suggests the earth is flat.
Do you really believe the earth is a square? Even FET does not suggest it to be square.
I do not know.

I do not know that FET suggests a square, infinite plane, or other shape.

FET does suggest "flat."
Do you really believe the sun and moon stopped in the sky? Even if it literally stopped in the sky, how is this evidence of a flat earth? It seems like a stretch to interpret those scriptures to be anything other than metaphors.
I happen to believe that even science suggests the RET/spinning globe is capable of experiencing change in velocity and gaining/losing time over incidents such as giant earthquakes.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to discount the apparent stoppage of the sun and moon in the sky.

As for it being evidence of a flat earth, I agree. It would be silly to even suggest the stoppage of the sun/moon is related to a flat earth.

What caused you to correlate the two?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 01:12:25 PM by totallackey »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #118 on: August 20, 2019, 01:29:27 PM »
...

I happen to believe that even science suggests the RET/spinning globe is capable of experiencing change in velocity and gaining/losing time over incidents such as giant earthquakes.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to discount the apparent stoppage of the sun and moon in the sky.

As for it being evidence of a flat earth, I agree. It would be silly to even suggest the stoppage of the sun/moon is related to a flat earth.

What caused you to correlate the two?

This verse was mentioned above:

Josh 10:13
The sun stood still and the moon stood motionless while the nation took vengeance on its enemies. The event is recorded in the Scroll of the Upright One. The sun stood motionless in the middle of the sky and did not set for about a full day.

It is being used to suggest the earth is flat since suddenly stopping rotation would cause a massive inertia backlash if the earth was spinning.

When you are pointing out how the bible suggests the earth is flat, your argument assumes a literal interpretation of the bible, so you literally ARE taking those scriptures LITERALLY. When it says "ends of the earth", you are taking that as the earth literally has ends. "To the four corners of the earth" you are taking it that the earth literally has four corners - hence you are taking it literally.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #119 on: August 20, 2019, 03:50:23 PM »
...

I happen to believe that even science suggests the RET/spinning globe is capable of experiencing change in velocity and gaining/losing time over incidents such as giant earthquakes.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to discount the apparent stoppage of the sun and moon in the sky.

As for it being evidence of a flat earth, I agree. It would be silly to even suggest the stoppage of the sun/moon is related to a flat earth.

What caused you to correlate the two?

This verse was mentioned above:

Josh 10:13
The sun stood still and the moon stood motionless while the nation took vengeance on its enemies. The event is recorded in the Scroll of the Upright One. The sun stood motionless in the middle of the sky and did not set for about a full day.

It is being used to suggest the earth is flat since suddenly stopping rotation would cause a massive inertia backlash if the earth was spinning.

When you are pointing out how the bible suggests the earth is flat, your argument assumes a literal interpretation of the bible, so you literally ARE taking those scriptures LITERALLY. When it says "ends of the earth", you are taking that as the earth literally has ends. "To the four corners of the earth" you are taking it that the earth literally has four corners - hence you are taking it literally.
I am not taking it literally.

I am pointing out, as does your own source (which I quoted) states the Bible does suggest the earth is flat.