newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2019, 07:58:33 AM »
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No, you misunderstand. The Earth is much, much larger than any galaxy. Even the Milky Way is basically just a collection of motes.

Really!  What is a 'mote' firstly? The only mote I know of is when people talk about a mote of dust. Secondly where do you get the data from that tells you the Earth is much larger than any galaxy?  Absurd statement.  The Milky Way is a spiral (many suggest barred spiral) galaxy with an estimated diameter of 100,000 light years.  The Earth is a rock in space of diameter just short of 8,000 miles.

We have two sources of data that can verify the size of our galaxy and the distances (and hence sizes) of other galaxies as well.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 08:19:11 AM by newhorizons »

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2019, 03:40:41 PM »
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No, you misunderstand. The Earth is much, much larger than any galaxy. Even the Milky Way is basically just a collection of motes.

Really!  What is a 'mote' firstly? The only mote I know of is when people talk about a mote of dust. Secondly where do you get the data from that tells you the Earth is much larger than any galaxy?  Absurd statement.  The Milky Way is a spiral (many suggest barred spiral) galaxy with an estimated diameter of 100,000 light years.  The Earth is a rock in space of diameter just short of 8,000 miles.

We have two sources of data that can verify the size of our galaxy and the distances (and hence sizes) of other galaxies as well.
Just asking a small, perhaps relevant question.

When you write the word "verify," does one interpret this to mean "established" or "proven." (i.e., without a doubt)?

newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2019, 03:55:05 PM »
That would depend on what your definition of established or proven is.  For me and all other professional and amateur astronomers alike yes very much so. To anyone else that's up to them to decide. What data exists that proves or establishes (i.e. without a doubt) that the Earth is flat?

We have a pretty good idea about how the Sun is a member of the Milky Way galaxy, the structure and content of the Milky Way and of how the Milky Way Galaxy is a member of the local group of galaxies. So for someone to come out with a statement such as the Earth is larger than a galaxy is rather ridiculous.  I can only hope and assume it was not meant to be taken seriously.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 06:31:38 PM by newhorizons »

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2019, 10:15:45 AM »
That would depend on what your definition of established or proven is.  For me and all other professional and amateur astronomers alike yes very much so. To anyone else that's up to them to decide. What data exists that proves or establishes (i.e. without a doubt) that the Earth is flat?

We have a pretty good idea about how the Sun is a member of the Milky Way galaxy, the structure and content of the Milky Way and of how the Milky Way Galaxy is a member of the local group of galaxies. So for someone to come out with a statement such as the Earth is larger than a galaxy is rather ridiculous.  I can only hope and assume it was not meant to be taken seriously.
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2019, 10:24:30 AM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2019, 12:55:38 PM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2019, 12:57:55 PM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.

Within my normal day-to-day life I witness the sun rise and set, and thus I do not witness any flat earth. So does humanity.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2019, 01:07:29 PM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.
Agreed. In the same way that, while living a normal, day-to-day life, we don't see bacteria.
That doesn't mean bacteria don't exist. It just means our senses are limited and are not sufficient on their own to determine the nature of reality.
But we do have other ways of determining reality. This image illustrates the folly of looking at a horizon, not seeing any curve and making conclusions about the shape of the earth:

If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2019, 01:55:43 PM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.
Agreed. In the same way that, while living a normal, day-to-day life, we don't see bacteria.
That doesn't mean bacteria don't exist. It just means our senses are limited and are not sufficient on their own to determine the nature of reality.
But we do have other ways of determining reality. This image illustrates the folly of looking at a horizon, not seeing any curve and making conclusions about the shape of the earth:



I've said it before, and I'll say it again: our senses are not proof of anything.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2019, 03:09:57 PM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.

Within my normal day-to-day life I witness the sun rise and set, and thus I do not witness any flat earth. So does humanity.
The shape of the sun and what you perceive to be rising and setting has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

That is a common fallacy.

That is like stating a creature the size of an ant, possessing the visual acuity of a human, would be able to perceive the light from a flashlight a proportionate distance away as it circled above and about him.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2019, 03:11:37 PM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.
Agreed. In the same way that, while living a normal, day-to-day life, we don't see bacteria.
That doesn't mean bacteria don't exist. It just means our senses are limited and are not sufficient on their own to determine the nature of reality.
But we do have other ways of determining reality. This image illustrates the folly of looking at a horizon, not seeing any curve and making conclusions about the shape of the earth:



I've said it before, and I'll say it again: our senses are not proof of anything.
I am of the opinion our senses are the only thing that is real.

After that, it then becomes one of subjective interpretation of what exactly was sensed.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2019, 03:15:05 PM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.

Within my normal day-to-day life I witness the sun rise and set, and thus I do not witness any flat earth. So does humanity.
The shape of the sun and what you perceive to be rising and setting has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

Then explain it please. How can I see a sunset or sunrise if the earth were flat.

Or explain why it has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2019, 03:33:16 PM »
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I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.

You would not expect to see the curvature of the Earth directly during normal day-to-day would you.  You can't see enough of the Earths surface from ground level. I would have thought that was obvious.

If you were a microbe sitting on a snooker ball you could not have any direct perception that you were sitting on a curved surface. On the other hand if you were a midge or a knat flying past that snooker ball from a distance of a few cm then it would look curved because you would now be able to see the surface from a far enough distance away to see that it was curved. It is a matter of proportion.  The midge analogy is comparable in scale to the ISS orbiting the Earth from 400km up.  Astronauts on the ISS can see a large enough proportion of the Earths surface to see that it is curved and indeed spherical. Of course the FE movement dismiss that along with all other direct evidence of a spherical Earth as fabrication or whatever because it goes against their assertion that the Earth is flat.

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I am of the opinion our senses are the only thing that is real.

That's absolutely fine. But having an opinion about something doesn't make you right.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 05:49:35 PM by newhorizons »

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2019, 03:36:29 PM »
The shape of the sun and what you perceive to be rising and setting has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

Actually true. The sun could rise and set on a flat earth. But the ancient flat earth model was based on their local perspective. So they would have believed that the sun went under the disc of the earth at night and came up over the edge of it and went over it during the day. And that does match our observations of sunrise and sunset, but it means that when it's day it's day everywhere and when it's night it's night everywhere. With global transport and communication networks we now know that is not the case so that ancient flat earth model doesn't work.

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That is like stating a creature the size of an ant, possessing the visual acuity of a human, would be able to perceive the light from a flashlight a proportionate distance away as it circled above and about him.

The sun rising and setting is not consistent with a sun disappearing and appearing because of the limits of our vision. It's not how perspective works. EA might work but where's the evidence for that effect existing? The sun's angular size and velocity remain constant throughout the day. When the sun sets it does so from the bottom upwards and slowly sinks. This is all consistent with a sun a fixed distance away moving in a circular path (or a rotating earth) and the sun going over the side of the edge of the earth. That could be a flat earth - but then the sun would be under the disc of the earth and it would be night everywhere. Given that we know that not to be the case another explanation which works is the sun is going over the edge of a curve.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2019, 03:45:05 PM »
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: our senses are not proof of anything.
I am of the opinion our senses are the only thing that is real.

After that, it then becomes one of subjective interpretation of what exactly was sensed.

How can you prove your senses are real if you can only subjectively interpret them?
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2019, 05:55:28 PM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.
Agreed. In the same way that, while living a normal, day-to-day life, we don't see bacteria.
That doesn't mean bacteria don't exist. It just means our senses are limited and are not sufficient on their own to determine the nature of reality.
But we do have other ways of determining reality. This image illustrates the folly of looking at a horizon, not seeing any curve and making conclusions about the shape of the earth:



I've said it before, and I'll say it again: our senses are not proof of anything.
I am of the opinion our senses are the only thing that is real.

After that, it then becomes one of subjective interpretation of what exactly was sensed.
God I'm so glad this is absolutely not true, otherwise every time I wake up to sleep paralysis and see some crazy shit it would turn out to be real.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2019, 06:59:25 PM »
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: our senses are not proof of anything.
I am of the opinion our senses are the only thing that is real.

After that, it then becomes one of subjective interpretation of what exactly was sensed.

How can you prove your senses are real if you can only subjectively interpret them?
You can't. This is just an something that every one of us must take for granted in order to have any meaningful discussion about any other topic.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 07:01:59 PM by Tim Alphabeaver »
**I move away from the infinite flat plane to breathe in

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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2019, 07:01:07 PM »
God I'm so glad this is absolutely not true, otherwise every time I wake up to sleep paralysis and see some crazy shit it would turn out to be real.
I think totallackey said that your senses are the only thing that is real, not everything you sense is real.
**I move away from the infinite flat plane to breathe in

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2019, 07:13:05 PM »
Well, considering you have admitted the actual heliocentricity of the so-called solar system is, in fact, not proven...I think the "pretty good idea," is, in fact," more accurately described as "imagination."

What would you say has been proven in your FE model, and how was it proven?
I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.

Within my normal day-to-day life I witness the sun rise and set, and thus I do not witness any flat earth. So does humanity.
The shape of the sun and what you perceive to be rising and setting has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

Then explain it please. How can I see a sunset or sunrise if the earth were flat.

Or explain why it has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.
I did explain it within the analogy of ..."a creature the size of an ant, possessing the visual acuity of a human, would be able to perceive the light from a flashlight a proportionate distance away as it circled above and about him."

If that light is within range, the creature would be in light.

If not, it does not mean the light set behind a CURVED surface or appeared after rising over a CURVED surface.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 11:20:41 AM by totallackey »

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2019, 07:19:59 PM »
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I would say it is demonstrably proven that humanity, while living a normal, day-to-day life, does not witness any curvature of the earth.

You would not expect to see the curvature of the Earth directly during normal day-to-day would you.  You can't see enough of the Earths surface from ground level. I would have thought that was obvious.

If you were a microbe sitting on a snooker ball you could not have any direct perception that you were sitting on a curved surface. On the other hand if you were a midge or a knat flying past that snooker ball from a distance of a few cm then it would look curved because you would now be able to see the surface from a far enough distance away to see that it was curved. It is a matter of proportion.  The midge analogy is comparable in scale to the ISS orbiting the Earth from 400km up.  Astronauts on the ISS can see a large enough proportion of the Earths surface to see that it is curved and indeed spherical. Of course the FE movement dismiss that along with all other direct evidence of a spherical Earth as fabrication or whatever because it goes against their assertion that the Earth is flat.

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I am of the opinion our senses are the only thing that is real.

That's absolutely fine. But having an opinion about something doesn't make you right.
I believe it makes me correct in this instance.

Can you honestly write you believe there are astronauts on the ISS?

If yes, why?

Do you believe have the ability to discern the difference between the videos presented as originating from the ISS and those of the movie Gravity or those of Howard Wolowitz on The Big Bang Theory ?

I don't believe you, or anyone else, could honestly write that.

Further, even camera shots from the ISS have been shown to present way more curve than would be mathematically expected.