REs netiquette
« on: June 06, 2019, 08:10:43 PM »
Motivated by my previous observation that in this forum there isn't much FE2FE discussion, I wonder if REs shouldn't look for some rules to follow, in order to allow FEs to reach at least a certain amount of freedom here. Moreover, it would help the quality of the debate, which often amounts to a yes vs no fight.

Advantages for REs
- They could concentrate better on what arguments actually can make it
- Less redundancy in arguments
- Hopefully get to see more FEs around
- More sharing of previous experiences

Disadvantages for REs
- it's unpleasant to be told what to do
- feeling that "Science" must bow and be sacrificed

I have some rules in mind, but I largely prefer to hear others REs proposals :)
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline stack

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2019, 10:46:35 PM »
Over on the other site they have a "Flat Earth Believers" forum where only approved FEr's or FE 'supporters' are allowed to post. Coincidentally there's a discussion right now about using that area for more FE2FE discussions/debates. Which, in theory, it already is. However, it's not really being used in that manner I guess due to a low number of participants. I'm not sure how it would play out anyway. One example to look to is maybe Dubay's http://ifers.123.st/ site. Only FEr's are allowed to post. Participation as a whole seems to be spotty at best there.

What do you propose?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2019, 09:42:06 AM »
Over on the other site they have a "Flat Earth Believers" forum where only approved FEr's or FE 'supporters' are allowed to post. Coincidentally there's a discussion right now about using that area for more FE2FE discussions/debates. Which, in theory, it already is. However, it's not really being used in that manner I guess due to a low number of participants. I'm not sure how it would play out anyway. One example to look to is maybe Dubay's http://ifers.123.st/ site. Only FEr's are allowed to post. Participation as a whole seems to be spotty at best there.

Ouch, I missed those. I'll have a look, but yes, there's the possibility of a non-sense in this topic. At that point maybe everything gets useless I guess?

What do you propose?

Basically anything that would lead FEs to one of these two outcomes:
- FE doubting flat earth
- FE showing signs of not being distinguishable from a fake FE/prank
as these are the only two reasonable outcomes.

Somehow I don't think the REs attempts here are accomplishing any of those two. It's mainly pointless that REs explain to each others how the Earth is round. It's pointless to show complicated diagrams of how the RE model is. It's pointless to revisit 400 years of epistemology and methodological doubt just because FEs wish somehow to be right. They're pointless because they are confirmations of how Science works, not the "Zetetic" method.

FEs thrive on knowing their own priorities and not revealing those to the world. Discovering what they value most is the first step. So I'm pretty sure that hulls disappearing first over the horizon for them is a trivial objection, they already have the auotmatic answer. But maybe something else isn't. So, at first, I would try to not follow what they want to stress, as it's probably a controversial topic they thrive on.

But it's mainly a brainstorming here.
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2019, 10:56:05 AM »
Over on the other site they have a "Flat Earth Believers" forum where only approved FEr's or FE 'supporters' are allowed to post. Coincidentally there's a discussion right now about using that area for more FE2FE discussions/debates. Which, in theory, it already is. However, it's not really being used in that manner I guess due to a low number of participants. I'm not sure how it would play out anyway. One example to look to is maybe Dubay's http://ifers.123.st/ site. Only FEr's are allowed to post. Participation as a whole seems to be spotty at best there.

What do you propose?

I'd like to see more FE on FE discussion. I don't know whether that discussion should be restricted to FE people though.
I don't understand why there is not more discussion on here between FE people, given how many different FE models there are or certainly major parts of the model which there is no consensus about.
Pete hinted elsewhere that some of this discussion goes on in private, I'm not clear why that is.
I'm sure they're sick of the repetition of threads from fly-by RE people on here, I am too. More threads started by FE people would mix things up a bit.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2019, 01:18:14 PM »
"Pete hinted elsewhere that some of this discussion goes on in private, I'm not clear why that is." - It's a lot easier and pleasant to 'debate' and discuss with people who already agree with your fundamental belief. Lots of confirmation about what you think to be true can feel better than the harsh realities of the public internet where the very opposite happens.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2019, 01:45:29 PM »
It's a lot easier and pleasant to 'debate' and discuss with people who already agree with your fundamental belief.
Thanks for the extremely rude assumption/accusation in a thread which advocates for an improvement in netiquette - hopefully the irony sinks in. To those genuinely interested, this sort of stuff is why FE'ers debate amongst themselves in places you won't be admitted to.

Best of luck to those of you advocating for a change of approach - sounds like you've accurately identified (some of) the problem, even if I can't help with the solution.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 01:48:52 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2019, 02:26:51 PM »
To those genuinely interested, this sort of stuff is why FE'ers debate amongst themselves in places you won't be admitted to.
So, out of interest, what are these forums for?
They seem to be mostly used for RE people to ask the same questions over and over again and/or claim that various parts of FE Theory don't work.
Is that what you guys want this place to be?
Don't you want some forums where you can discuss your ideas and try and move towards consensus on some of the issues which are in dispute?

I can't imagine your intention was to have FE forums where people who don't subscribe to FE beliefs come on here to tell you why you're wrong.
I mean, you're going to get that if you're going to open these boards up to the public, but it's not all this place should be, is it?

The forum I run is lamentably quiet now but back in the day it was pretty busy, we used to get a couple of thousand posts most days. Lots of threads and chat.
Often though I'd find that debates were often ruined by a few idiots who were there more to troll than debate.
I think you guys are too strict in the way you moderate but I must admit we probably went too far the other way and were far too lenient. Always a difficult line to tread I find.
Anyway, I did at times contemplate a part of the forum where people could have more serious debates and we'd moderate that part more strictly. Never did it, but it's something to consider.
Maybe there should be a section for FE people to debate and only FE people and carefully selected RE people would be allowed to post?

It just seems a bit odd to have public FE forums mostly dominated by RE people and then have debates amongst yourselves in private.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2019, 02:34:10 PM »
It's a lot easier and pleasant to 'debate' and discuss with people who already agree with your fundamental belief.
Thanks for the extremely rude assumption/accusation in a thread which advocates for an improvement in netiquette - hopefully the irony sinks in. To those genuinely interested, this sort of stuff is why FE'ers debate amongst themselves in places you won't be admitted to.

Best of luck to those of you advocating for a change of approach - sounds like you've accurately identified (some of) the problem, even if I can't help with the solution.
Apologies but even if this isn't the case for yourself it still is the case in general. It's not an assumption, it's more like the saying "Don't surround yourself with yes men". Why have hidden discussions away from people that will disagree? You will need to debate with the 'opposing' side otherwise you aren't really debating, you've already decided the earth is flat and now you're discussing how and why it's flat with people who also agree it's flat.. I prefer out in the open even if I am proven wrong or have the odd internet troll try to ridicule. And obviously, me not being a flat earther, I'd like to see these discussions too.

You're assuming the worst of me, a lot goes without saying. I talk to people in private too about all kinds of stuff, that's not my issue, it's simply discussing with people who'll confirm your beliefs without anyone to say "well no, I don't agree and here's why". If that makes any sense. Sorry if what I said came off as rude.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2019, 05:49:48 PM »
So, out of interest, what are these forums for?
One of the Flat Earth Society's core principles is that ideas and opinions should flow freely. This forum will be what its regulars make of it, for better or for worse.

They seem to be mostly used for RE people to ask the same questions over and over again and/or claim that various parts of FE Theory don't work.
Is that what you guys want this place to be?
Personally, no, and I continue to hope that this temporary wave of RE shitposters will either get bored and leave or start doing something useful.

Don't you want some forums where you can discuss your ideas and try and move towards consensus on some of the issues which are in dispute?
We do have that. But if we let the RE crowd in, we'll be back to square one. The alternative is to go full Eric Dubay and start banning people for disagreeing with us - which is completely contrary to our ideals. Another option would be to get the RE crowd to start being constructive, but that's entirely outside of any of our powers.

It just seems a bit odd to have public FE forums mostly dominated by RE people and then have debates amongst yourselves in private.
Surely you find most everything about the FE movement odd. But short of censoring the shit out of everyone, I can't see a better outcome. As I mentioned many times before, these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 05:54:29 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline markjo

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2019, 07:36:37 PM »
Don't you want some forums where you can discuss your ideas and try and move towards consensus on some of the issues which are in dispute?
We do have that. But if we let the RE crowd in, we'll be back to square one. The alternative is to go full Eric Dubay and start banning people for disagreeing with us - which is completely contrary to our ideals.
Or, you could try a middle ground approach where FE'ers have an area where they can discuss freely but RE'ers can still watch.  You know, like the FE Believers board on the other site.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2019, 07:45:31 PM »
I have come to the conclusion that average FE don't want to debate it. They want to learn about it from other FE. The FE'ers who bother to debate on forums long term mainly do so to strengthen their models. Whereas the average FE don't have that motivation. They want to learn, not argue with strangers about it.

The RE seem more than willing to spend many hours of their life researching topics for us, free of charge, which is generous and invaluable.

However, the debate forums which improve the technical aspects of FET should ideally be a secondary feature to a tube website of some sort with a constant stream of Flat Earth videos, which provide information, research, opinions, in order to continue the growth which was seen on YouTube. The videos can be hosted on YouTube and the new and popular videos from selected channels can be displayed. All we need to find is some platform which can facilitate this.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 08:03:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2019, 09:18:47 PM »
However, the debate forums which improve the technical aspects of FET should ideally be a secondary feature to a tube website of some sort with a constant stream of Flat Earth videos, which provide information, research, opinions, in order to continue the growth which was seen on YouTube.
I would respectfully disagree.  Improving the technical aspects of FET should ideally be a primary feature.  After all, what good is a constant stream of FET videos if the content of those videos can't stand up to critical scrutiny?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2019, 09:23:51 PM »
However, the debate forums which improve the technical aspects of FET should ideally be a secondary feature to a tube website of some sort with a constant stream of Flat Earth videos, which provide information, research, opinions, in order to continue the growth which was seen on YouTube.
I would respectfully disagree.  Improving the technical aspects of FET should ideally be a primary feature.  After all, what good is a constant stream of FET videos if the content of those videos can't stand up to critical scrutiny?

People are interested in conspiracy, religion, social aspects, mark sargent interviews with professionals and military personnel, the flat earth podcast radio shows, etc., etc., much of which do not have a place in forum web chat format.
 
Forum web chats have an astounding history of not significantly growing the movement, while all of the above do. Things which grow the movement should be put front and center and things which do not should be of less priority. The forums are still of value, just not to the public at large who want to primarily observe and learn about it rather than debate it.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 09:46:48 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2019, 09:26:53 PM »
Scientific brain can not have blockages, walls, doctrines, it must be free to research, question a lot, experiment, try and find answers.   Everything that have prohibitions, rules for thinking and pressure is related to faith, blind faith, it has one direction and closed to expansion.

When I came here months ago, the name "Flat Earth Society" was a neon sign for a door where I thought I would find answers for FE statements that didn't make sense, nowhere better than here, right?   The word "forum" talks by itself, it is a discussion place, where everyone can voice his thoughts and generate discussions around it, validating or not, learning or teaching, for an overall truthful result.

After I read the rules and search the wiki a bit, my first post and question was related to the physical dimensions of Australia on FE map, that bother me for months and no logic explanations.  Then I was immediately warned by Pete, because my question was trivial and done thousands of times before.   I had a legit question, and hoping to have a good answer in a place where FErs concentrate and talk about it. Instead I got a slap.  That pushed me back to the opposite side of my sincere intentions.  Can't ask this kind of questions? Why not?

I didn't want to change my view of this world, RE of FE, I wanted to change, perhaps, my view of Fers not explaining things in a logic way, and that for me would be a great advance. 

So, I don't know if I am contributing to  the netiquette in the forum, I want to, but one thing that would reduce the smoke of REs is just improve Wiki with more logical and scientific explanations.   You can still say that atmosphere is dense and you can not see that far, but it must have a method of research and lab experiments with plausible and repeatable results, not just a personal opinion and a text written 150 years ago, going against all thousands of actual scientists and research institutes and laboratories in the world with today's much better technology and tools to prove or disprove those old texts.

I still think that both, REs and FEs can together discuss ideas and questions.  Good answers for the recurring questions must be on Wiki, clear, detailed and unquestionable true.  A strong Wiki make the place stronger, nicer and fine. You can end up creating a learning center for FEs and REs. Why not?

Tom said that a regular FE doesn't want to discuss, just want to learn.  But to learn you need to have valid and concise literature and logical texts, images, experiences possible to be done over the kitchen table. People need to feel confident about the learning, not by faith, but by logic and sure truth.

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2019, 09:36:22 PM »
I have come to the conclusion that average FE don't want to debate it. They want to learn about it from other FE. The FE'ers who bother to debate on forums long term mainly do so to strengthen their models. Whereas the average FE don't have that motivation. They want to learn, not argue with strangers about it.

The RE seem more than willing to spend many hours of their life researching topics for us, free of charge, which is generous and invaluable.

However, the debate forums which improve the technical aspects of FET should ideally be a secondary feature to a tube website of some sort with a constant stream of Flat Earth videos, which provide information, research, opinions, in order to continue the growth which was seen on YouTube. The videos can be hosted on YouTube and the new and popular videos from selected channels can be displayed. All we need to find is some platform which can facilitate this.
I agree with Tom.
What I have seen here agrees with what I have seen on other platforms. I have continually reached out and tried to begin collaborative dialogues with the goal of arriving at objective truth. As Tom says, FEs are more interested in sharing ideas between themselves, and are decidedly not interested in my ideas.
I agree with OP Bikini Polaris, that the FEs probably don't much appreciate the opinions of the REs. The mistake Bikini Polaris makes is holding that idea that the FEs have any wish to participate in that type of debate.
There are certainly some FEs on here who enjoy debating for debate's sake, but I've not encountered any who are open to the idea that these discussions could ever change their opinion about the shape of the Earth.

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2019, 10:39:16 PM »
There are certainly some FEs on here who enjoy debating for debate's sake, but I've not encountered any who are open to the idea that these discussions could ever change their opinion about the shape of the Earth.

But that is the thing, I am a researcher, my whole life I investigate things, mostly to solidify what I can read on books and other people's findings in labs or the field. I am not seeking other people that share my own truth, no, I don't want companionship.  I normally seek to research what initially I don't give credit, because the scientific truth is exactly in proving what it is impossible.  "This think will not going to break"... then make everything to break it, step on it, through from the fifth floor, hammer it.  If it breaks, that was not the truth, could be a partial truth, so lets report it accordingly.

I am not a Cloak and Dagger defender of this or that, I am pro scientific truth all the way.  I don't care if that will be against 99% of the population.  It would be fantastic if everyone in here would be seeking the truth, not polarized, not induced by what other people think or wrote.  Except, of course, if this is not the intention of this place. 

Anyway, the fact that all moderators are defenders of FE, make me think twice.

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2019, 12:40:44 AM »
I'm sure they're sick of the repetition of threads from fly-by RE people on here, I am too. More threads started by FE people would mix things up a bit.

Oh yeah.

and I continue to hope that this temporary wave of RE shitposters will either get bored and leave or start doing something useful.

REs and FEs look like coming from different planets (pun intended :) ), it really looks like the two groups are talking different languages and the outcome is what you're saying: boredom.

Or, you could try a middle ground approach where FE'ers have an area where they can discuss freely but RE'ers can still watch.  You know, like the FE Believers board on the other site.

I don't like this, because then REs2FEs discussion would still be fruitless.

I have come to the conclusion that average FE don't want to debate it.

This would make useless any forum, I guess.

but one thing that would reduce the smoke of REs is just improve Wiki with more logical and scientific explanations. 

This is something that could be the number one, and only, allowed discussion approach for REs. Everything else denied (no insisiting about sunsets, no pressing with other questions), just push for "more details". After all, if a FE isn't willing to make its idea clear, what else can work?

The mistake Bikini Polaris makes is holding that idea that the FEs have any wish to participate in that type of debate.
There are certainly some FEs on here who enjoy debating for debate's sake, but I've not encountered any who are open to the idea that these discussions could ever change their opinion about the shape of the Earth.

This is a critically important point. Still, it is possible that discussing with the few of them willing to discuss, would reveal important details on the FE mindset. If REs would agree on what works and what doesn't (and if your read Pete posts, nothing now is really working).


I am pro scientific truth all the way.  I don't care if that will be against 99% of the population.  It would be fantastic if everyone in here would be seeking the truth, not polarized, not induced by what other people think or wrote.  Except, of course, if this is not the intention of this place.  .

Consider the possibility that you're using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Consider the premise of being a FE, clearly that's something weird from a RE p.o.v., they aren't trying to discredit science, just to convince themselves of a beautiful fairy tale.

----

I think here REs are agreeing that the current approach is fruitless. If we're so keen on science we may conclude with a p-value less than 0.05 that we're wasting our time because we're not finding the right approach. FEs just want to close themselves into a sauna and breath conspiracies? Well fine. Will there be a backdoor or not? This is what matters. Btw, I do like and I'd expand the proposal by spherical: if someone states the earth is flat and create a wiki, the right approach would be to elicit logical details. I don't think FEs could ignore that (maybe), because that's what FEs would do too (again, maybe).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 09:09:59 AM by Bikini Polaris »
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline markjo

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2019, 01:04:44 AM »
People are interested in conspiracy, religion, social aspects, mark sargent interviews with professionals and military personnel, the flat earth podcast radio shows, etc., etc., much of which do not have a place in forum web chat format.
If that's true, then there must be something wrong with me because I don't care about any of that.  As far as I'm concerned, all of that is just click-bait.  If you're going to tell me that nearly everything that I think I know about the nature of the universe is wrong, then I want plausible, coherent explanations of why FET is better than RET and I want to be able to tell you why you're wrong.

Forum web chats have an astounding history of not significantly growing the movement, while all of the above do. Things which grow the movement should be put front and center and things which do not should be of less priority. The forums are still of value, just not to the public at large who want to primarily observe and learn about it rather than debate it.
All of that it fine and well, but if you don't have a theory with any substance, then I don't see how "the movement" could be considered anything more than a cult.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2019, 01:13:23 AM »
People are interested in conspiracy, religion, social aspects, mark sargent interviews with professionals and military personnel, the flat earth podcast radio shows, etc., etc., much of which do not have a place in forum web chat format.
If that's true, then there must be something wrong with me because I don't care about any of that.

If you don't care that Mark Sargent is having interviews on his shows with military personnel who say that they don't use Coriolis, or career surveyors who say that they don't use curvature, then I can only characterize that as intellectually dishonest. Many of these videos do have value and are of great interest.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 01:16:58 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2019, 01:25:02 AM »
People are interested in conspiracy, religion, social aspects, mark sargent interviews with professionals and military personnel, the flat earth podcast radio shows, etc., etc., much of which do not have a place in forum web chat format.
If that's true, then there must be something wrong with me because I don't care about any of that.

If you don't care that Mark Sargent is having interviews on his shows with military personnel who say that they don't use Coriolis, or career surveyors who say that they don't use curvature, then I can only characterize that as intellectually dishonest. Many of these videos do have value and are of great interest.
No, I don't really care about personal testimonials that can be cherry picked and taken out of context.  Personally, I'm more interested in a plausible FE model that can explain everyday phenomena like the apparent motions of the sun and moon.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.