Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2019, 03:38:58 PM »
We're veering massively into the realms of personal judgement here, so please take everything I say here with a pinch of salt. My view is that anyone who comes here to talk about how they think the Earth is round is at least a little bit misguided. In a way (though I readily acknowledge this is a poor analogy), it feels like going to a football fans' forum to complain about one's dislike of football.
You admit it's a bad analogy, but I think the difference is as much as I think Rugby is boring, I wouldn't bother going on to a Rugby forum to tell everyone how stupid they are and how rubbish the sport they follow is. Because it's subjective. I like football, I don't like Rugby. But if people want to watch a sport which I find boring then fine, doesn't affect me. And the idea that someone might like Rugby isn't mind-blowing to me, it's a very popular sport.

And that's the difference. The idea that anyone would believe in a flat earth in this day and age - particularly in the era of space travel, GPS etc - is mind-blowing to me. Does it do me any harm if people believe  that? I guess not. But when I heard this was a thing and found this place (Nice SEO by the way, kudos) and saw Tom saying things like planes don't know how fast they travel or no-one knows how far Paris is from New York or sunset is caused by "perspective" I couldn't help but sign up and chip in rather than shouting at the screen. I don't expect Tom to ever change his opinions but maybe others who see the debates will. Why do I care? Because I do think this "post truth" world we live in is damaging. No-one's going to die because they believe in a Flat Earth but it is linked with a conspiracy theory mindset and distrust of authority which leads people to believe one rogue report about MMR being linked with autism, a load of kids not getting vaccinated and some dying from measles. There's obviously a middle ground, blind faith in "authority" is harmful too.

I don't know which of your RE categories you think I'm in. I'd place myself in the second. I don't create endless threads about how round the earth is but I don't acknowledge any other possibilities. I mean. In the literal sense sure, anything is possible I guess but your Wiki and the arguments I've seen on here have failed to sway me. If your retort is "but you haven't done any tests for yourself" then I guess that's fair. But I have done a few small things to show that shadows being lit from below isn't because of perspective and neither is it waves occluding tall buildings. I've done a bunch of diagrams to explain concepts too. My contributions have been mostly about how certain FE ideas in the Wiki don't (in my view) hold much water. And if Tom (it's usually Tom) misrepresents or fails to understand the heliocentric model then I'll join in to correct or explain.

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Many do. You just happen not to be one of them. Every time I point out to you the unprecedented growth of the FE movement, you mistake it for starry-eyed pride

I think you get a bit over-excited, you have generated a lot of interest and deserve credit for that. Have you swayed some people? Of course. Some people believe Elvis is still alive, or that they've been abducted by aliens and so on. Niche beliefs will always be believed by some and the internet makes it easier to spread them. I can see how some people who have a certain conspiracy theory mindset and are pretty ignorant of science could be swayed or at least interested. It's pretty much the mother of all conspiracy theories.
But anyone with decent knowledge of science will see the theories for what they are unless, he says, dragging this kicking and screaming back to the point I'm trying to make, you have a more coherent theory. And that will only come by discussion amongst yourselves and I see none of that going on here. I take the point that this place is not the entirity of the FE Community, but it's still a place where I would expect to see (and would like to see) those sorts of discussions take place, even if you feel the need to limit RE access to them (which would be sensible)
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2019, 04:28:20 PM »
I think the difference is as much as I think Rugby is boring, I wouldn't bother going on to a Rugby forum to tell everyone how stupid they are and how rubbish the sport they follow is. [...] The idea that anyone would believe in a flat earth [...] is mind-blowing to me.
It's mind-blowing to me that someone would waste their time watching 10-or-so blokes chase a not-so-well-inflated ball, trying to kick it so that it goes to a certain place while preventing another 10-or-so blokes from kicking it towards another place. Like, that's some proper moron-grade stuff. Ooga booga, who kick ball better???? I'm genuinely baffled and depressed by how limited others must be to enjoy this sort of stuff.

Nonetheless, most of the time I refrain from commenting on it, because wasting my time on it would be even dumber - they can enjoy their game as long as they don't get in my way (thank Christ the local pub has a Football-Free Zone policy), and I can think they're stupid without getting all in their face about it. This is where people like you (and the even more problematic RE shitposters) differ from people like me. You guys do come here to complain about your view that someone is wrong on the Internet, actively seeking us out, and then you act indignant when we don't feed you. Quelle surprise.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 04:44:28 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2019, 10:10:18 PM »
A second netiquette point would be to warn new REs of the futility of asking for non-contradictory explainations.
It's a fair thing to ask though? If your answers are contradicting your other answers then why would you even give one of the answers in the first place? either one or none are correct, don't contradict yourself if you wanna be taken seriously. For example you have tomB calling out and mocking people for saying mirages exist in a round earth and thus our round earth is an illusion then in his next breath saying earth can only be flat with illusions and mirages, Tom contradicts himself constantly and he's the one writing the FE wiki most of the time. Why shouldn't people ask for non-contradicting answers? There is zero point in giving a contradicting answer.

The scientific unfairness is pointless when contradictions abound in FET and they don't care. Empirically, it's a waste of opportunity to ask something else. What if FET is not a scientific endeavour but a psychological trick? What's the REs path of least resistance? I'm just trying to find an empirical ground, because right now the asymmetry of information is in huge favor of FEs.
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2019, 09:50:57 AM »
I think the difference is as much as I think Rugby is boring, I wouldn't bother going on to a Rugby forum to tell everyone how stupid they are and how rubbish the sport they follow is. [...] The idea that anyone would believe in a flat earth [...] is mind-blowing to me.
I don't like football but I don't waste my time saying so. I wonder why you do about FE?
I'm not hugely into golf but I did watch the last day of the Masters - Woods' win was amazing and it was a great day of sport.
I loved it. But yeah, you could say "A man used a stick to hit a ball into a hole and everyone lost their shit, how ridiculous".
You can deconstruct any sport like this.
But while there are some sports I like, others I don't, sport is, in general, very popular. Over a billion people watched the last World Cup Final.
You might not like it, maybe you don't understand why people do but you are aware that it is a very popular sport.
Till recently I wasn't even aware that FE was a popular sport, so to speak.

And, fun fact: taste in sport/music/tv/films is subjective. The shape of the earth is not subjective. It is what it is.
Scientific ideas are not subjective. They can be tested. For example, Galileo said that objects of different masses fall at the same rate on earth (I know I've expressed that poorly, please don't nit pick!).
And he was right. That is not my opinion. It can be tested.
Of course, ideas may evolve over time as we learn more - two cannonballs of different mass may hit the ground at the same time if you drop them at the same time, a hammer and a feather do not. Other forces are at work on earth which don't have a significant effect on cannonballs but do on feathers. So that slightly changes the original assertion.
As David Scott showed during Apollo 15, drop a feather and a hammer at the same time in a vacuum and they do fall at the same rate.

So, having discovered that this was a thing, FE piqued my interest and when I saw Tom saying stuff like sunset can be caused by perspective then I felt the need to chip in. I think it's important that stuff which is demonstrably wrong is challenged. He is demonstrably wrong about perspective, and horizon dip. That doesn't mean the earth is a globe of course. Does it matter if people believe wrong stuff? Not in this case, maybe. But there are other examples - I gave one above - where this sort of woolly thinking has consequences.

And coming back to the point I'm trying to make, if you did go to a football forum to tell them how rubbish football is and you found every thread was from Rugby fans telling them why Rugby was brilliant and football was a game for pansies then wouldn't you find that odd? It's a football forum but none of the football fans on it are on there discussing who their best player is, whether the manager should be sacked, their hopes for next season. Every thread is Rugby fans telling them how rubbish their sport is. Wouldn't you wonder why they don't either kick them out or create their own threads? And if they did create their own threads and those threads were hijacked by the Rugby fans then maybe they should create their own section of the forum where they could just discuss football. Maybe they'd let some of the Rugby fans in but not the ones who only want to say how rubbish football is.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 09:57:55 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2019, 11:16:07 AM »
This is where people like you (and the even more problematic RE shitposters) differ from people like me. You guys do come here to complain about your view that someone is wrong on the Internet, actively seeking us out, and then you act indignant when we don't feed you. Quelle surprise.

... but you actively ASK the general public in. It's right there on the Home Page, under the forum heading.
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2019, 01:43:25 PM »
... but you actively ASK the general public in. It's right there on the Home Page, under the forum heading.
Indeed, we invite people to participate in a meaningful discussion. That doesn't mean dropping "wow erf rund" turds all over the place. Did you fail to understand the discussion up to this point, or have you just not bothered reading beyond the one paragraph you've quoted?

Focus, Tumeni. Think really, really hard about how productive it is to rush into a thread about how RE'ers could be a bit more civilised and acting like a case study for said thread. I believe in your ability to figure this out.
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2019, 03:07:03 PM »
On that same note Pete, you could also be a bit more polite if you're trying to advocate being polite. It goes both ways after all, FE peeps can be just as rude/insulting/dumb, it's not limited to just people who don't believe in the flat earth.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2019, 04:28:41 PM »
you could also be a bit more polite
I choose my tone to match my conversation partner. If you've proven yourself to be thoroughly unpleasant and deliberately obtuse, I'm not going to waste my time on something that won't be appreciated.

if you're trying to advocate being polite
Sigh. I recommend that you read the thread and take note of the aspects of netiquette I've been focusing on here. Politeness was really not high up on the list (and arguably not on the list at all). It may also be helpful to read the OP's original proposal - you will notice, once again, that it has little to do with your concept of politeness.

Mind you, you were already reminded of this once:
The OP is about what we REs could do to engage interesting discussions with FEs.
Yet you and Tumeni persist in proving BP's point by repeatedly demonstrating the worst of RE in this thread. Failing to follow the discussion before opening your mouths, deflecting to "uh okay but what about <bad thing about FE that has nothing to do with the thread>", and simply refusing to listen to anyone other than yourselves. Gee, it's so surprising that I treat you like idiots.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 04:37:15 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2019, 04:38:24 PM »
By definition, Netiquette is about good manners online and also by definition, means to be polite. But if you weren't focusing on that then ok, but it's still literally in the OP title and you've already told me once in this very thread that being rude is part of the problem.

"a thread which advocates for an improvement in netiquette - hopefully the irony sinks in."
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 04:40:21 PM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2019, 04:41:09 PM »
By definition, Netiquette is about good manners online
  • No, it isn't.
  • Stop shitting up this thread with your irrelevant rambling. Warned.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 04:44:01 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2019, 09:07:58 AM »
if you did go to a football forum to tell them how rubbish football is and you found every thread was from Rugby fans telling them why Rugby was brilliant and football was a game for pansies then wouldn't you find that odd? It's a football forum but none of the football fans on it are on there discussing who their best player is, whether the manager should be sacked, their hopes for next season.
That's simply untrue. Yeah, your shit threads tend to outnumber internal discussion, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And, once again, you mistake this forum for FES or the FE community. Can't help you with that, other than by simply pointing it out.

Every thread is Rugby fans telling them how rubbish their sport is. Wouldn't you wonder why they don't either kick them out or create their own threads?
We're already kicking people out if they misbehave particularly egregiously - as one of the most trigger-happy critics of every mod action in existence, you're well aware of this, and I doubt you actually want me to step it up. Your proposed solution is that we become Dubay's IFERS or Davis's "other FES". Those places already exist. If you think they're a good idea, just go there. We're not there because we think it's a bad idea, and we'd rather allow people to discuss freely. If you think your side's contributions are currently unhelpful, you could be part of the change you're asking for.
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2019, 09:32:51 AM »
Your proposed solution is that we become Dubay's IFERS or Davis's "other FES".

How would you describe this society as different than the "other FES"?
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2019, 01:51:48 PM »
How would you describe this society as different than the "other FES"?
I'm merely repeating statements from up-thread, not introducing new ideas. I wouldn't describe them in any way that wasn't already brought up here.
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2019, 06:32:39 PM »
That's simply untrue. Yeah, your shit threads tend to outnumber internal discussion, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
It's rare. I can't think of many threads where I've seen several FE people on here discussing one of the areas of contention between you in an attempt to come to some consensus. Most threads are started by RE people saying "Hey, what about..." and often many of the replies are from other RE people too - other than Tom who often chips in, others do occasionally but much less frequently.
You might not BE the FE Community but you are surely part of it, this place should be some part of having those discussions to advance FE theories, no?

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Your proposed solution is that we become Dubay's IFERS or Davis's "other FES".

Well, the first part of your reply implies you don't think there is a problem to solve.
The problem I see is not enough discussion between FE people on here to advance your theories. If you don't agree that's a problem because you think there's enough of that on here then ok. Not how I see it but you're the boss.
If you think it's not a problem because you can have those discussions elsewhere then ok, but I'm not clear what these boards are for because that should surely be part of what they're for. Or maybe you agree it's a problem but only a temporary one because the wave of RE people on here will soon get bored and move on then fair enough, I guess it's your call if you want to ride it out.

But, IF you think that FE people are put off starting or engaging in threads because of all the RE people then a solution would be to create more of a "safe space" on here for FE people to have those discussions. And having "free discussion" and going "full Eric Dubay" are not the only two options. An obvious middle ground is to allow selected RE people in. Or maybe the default would be that everyone has access but people who don't post within the spirit of that section could be kicked out. FE Investigations could even BE that section, the name implies that's what it's for.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2019, 07:55:30 PM »
You might not BE the FE Community but you are surely part of it, this place should be some part of having those discussions to advance FE theories, no?
It is one. Shockingly, the opinion of the unproductive RE peanut gallery changes nothing on that front.

An obvious middle ground is to allow selected RE people in.
I've explained this multiple times in this thread - you would not be happy with any such selection process.

Or maybe the default would be that everyone has access but people who don't post within the spirit of that section could be kicked out.
This is already the case. You're one of the main opponents of this approach. Please pick a side and stick to it - it's difficult to take you seriously when your suggestion is to work against your suggestions even more than I already am.

Doubly so when you try to hijack a thread in which an RE'er suggests that RE'ers should behave differently in order to complain about the fact that we haven't permabanned/purgatoried you yet.

By the way, stop doing that. Read the OP and stay on topic.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 08:07:18 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2019, 07:03:38 AM »
An obvious middle ground is to allow selected RE people in.
I've explained this multiple times in this thread - you would not be happy with any such selection process.
That doesn’t matter. My suggestion is about making this site better for you, not for me.
Yes, I would like to participate in the threads I’m talking about, it would be up to you (plural) to decide whether I (or anyone) is doing so in a way you deem productive.

And my suggestion isn’t what you have already. People can either see and post in all sections or none, my suggestion is have some sections more dedicated to discussion between FE people and have that section more (but not completely) restricted.

The OP is about the lack of FE on FE debate and whether RE people could behave differently to encourage more. My opinion is that the RE people who stick around are behaving, that’s why we haven’t been banned. I don’t know why FE people are put off having debates on here but I suspect the sheer number of RE posters and the fly-by shitposters are factors. I’m not trying to hijack the thread, my suggestion is an alternative way of encouraging more FE on FE debate on here which is completely relevant to the OP.
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2019, 07:12:34 AM »
My suggestion is about making this site better for you, not for me.
Inventing a problem that doesn't exist and hijacking a perfectly good thread to "solve" it is not making anything better for anyone. This is the last time I politely ask that you stop. If you're not here to discuss RE'ers' failures at netiquette and how they could be fixed, you're in the wrong thread.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 07:14:10 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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